Thoughts on St. Ignatius of Antioch?
>>18445045He was a Cuckold who castrated himself
>>18445045I was reading about him the other day. It seems probable that his epistles are largely later 2nd century forgeries, possibly originally circulated anonymously, intended to be a narrative of the perfect martyr for Christians. One reason to think this is that the narrative in the letters of his persecution makes no fucking sense internally or externally. Supposedly he's transported from Antioch to Rome (why? why take the expense of transporting one prisoner to Rome just to kill him?) via Asia Minor (the literal opposite route one would take to get to Rome from Antioch), where the letters say he's supposedly chained and bound, but also gets to travel through a bunch of cities and give preaching lectures to their Christian congregations, all while he's supposedly a prisoner being transported to Rome. It makes no sense for a martyr from Antioch, but very convenient for a Christian author in Asia Minor who cares about the churches there.
>>18445089Lol you're watching Litwa's videos are you? Look buddy, the authenticity of Ignatius's letters have basically been settled since Archbishop Ussher. There's nothing implausible about how he was transported to Rome from Antioch. Allen Brent addresses many of your criticisms in his seminal work on Ignatius of Antioch>(why? why take the expense of transporting one prisoner to Rome just to kill him?) via Asia Minor (the literal opposite route one would take to get to Rome from Antioch), where the letters say he's supposedly chained and bound, but also gets to travel through a bunch of cities and give preaching lectures to their Christian congregations, all while he's supposedly a prisoner being transported to RomeThis was not unusual at all. Allen Brent writes>It was normal practice to transport condemned criminals from the provinces in order to offer spectator sport in the Colosseum at Rome... We have evidence for this practice as early as 57 B.C. Cicero had taunted Piso, disgraced proconsul of Macedonia, with dispatching unjustly to his crony Claodius, 'any number of our independent allies and persons liable to tribute destined for wild beasts.' (Ignatius of Antioch, pg. 15)He further gives a remarkable defense of the authenticity of the Ignatian Epistles in chapter 5 against recent attacks in (particulalry) German scholarship. Anglo scholarship is almost unanimous on their authenticity. So many things support their authenticity, the biggest of which is the fact that Polycarp mentions them in his epistle and nobody disputes the authenticity of Polycarp's epistles. Another is that the letters are free of anachronisms which would be highly highly unlikely if they were forged.
>>18445089Basically all of the martyr stories are later medieval forgeries. It’s just catholic propaganda
>>18445089I would wager that you have incredibly meagre knowledge of the subject to comment on it, especially with speculation as the ground of your argument. When you say “his epistles”, what do you mean? The shorter recension? The middle recension? The longer recension? The obvious forgeries from the middle ages that nobody’s taken seriously for hundreds of years? All in all there is no reason to accept your speculative counter-evidential method, especially since the narrative of the letters is corroborated by Eusebius, Irenaeus and Polycarp. >>18445523This is secular propaganda
>>18445437>settled since Archbishop UssherThe guy who thought the Earth was 6000 years old? That's who you're going to cite as a historical authority?
>>18445637Earth is 6,000 years old
>>18445642None of the churches which believe in Ignatius as a saint believe that
>>18445642Genetic fallacy. Anyway Prots are just terrified of Ignatius.He is an inconvenience to them. But history doesn't care about what's inconvenient.
>>18445718Why would he be terrifying to Lutherans and AnglicansUssher was literally an Anglican
>>18445728Fair point. However Ignatius also exhibits a strong corporeal view about the real presence in the Eucharist. Also, he seems to view martyrdom as meritorious. At the very least he doesn't sit well with the Reformed camp.
>>18445089>where the letters say he's supposedly chained and bound, but also gets to travel through a bunch of cities and give preaching lectures to their Christian congregations, all while he's supposedly a prisonerIn Lucian's satire on Peregrinus Proteus who spent a while as a Christian and prisoner at the same time in the 2nd century, he supposedly had a great deal of freedom and communication with fellow Christians, perhaps in large part because Christians were bribing his guards. See picrel. In Ignatius' letter to Rome, there also seems to be a reference to his guards being bribed in Romans chapter 5, https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm>being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, *even when they receive benefits*, show themselves all the worse.There's a very appealing theory imo that Ignatius' letters properly belong to Peregrinus, but because Peregrinus: 1. Wasn't an orthodox Christian, and 2. In the end he was let go rather than being martyred and went on to leave/be kicked out of Christianity, someone who wanted to save his letters fixed them up by changing the identity of the author, a few practical details like the destinations of some of his letters and travels to further obscure his identity (so he was orignally being transported to Antioch, not Rome, and his letters to Rome and to Polycarp were originally both to Antioch), as well as a few doctrinal details where necessary.https://vridar.org/other-authors/roger-parvus-letters-supposedly-written-by-ignatius/
>>18446192There's really nothing implausible about a prisoner like Ignatius being able to communicate via letters with other people outside or receive visitors. For some reason people want to question this when it comes to Ignatius, but not when it comes to Paul the Apostle, whose prison epistles we have, where he received visitors and apparently had no problem getting his letters out, and nobody questions the authenticity of those, at least not on the basis that he was able to send letters from prison and have visitors. Anybody who uses this argument against the Ignatian epistles being genuine is retarded. Anyhow, Lucian's satire of Peregrinus is likely partly based on details that come from the life of Ignatius. Brent gives a pretty good analysis of this in his book. If Ignatius's letters had contained latter 2nd century orthodox interpolations, as you say, we should except to see the kinds of anachronisms we find in the long recension. But we don't. Ignatius's ecclesiology is still primitive relatively speaking. He never says bishops are successors to the apostles, an idea that, while in existence by the end of the 1st century (as evidenced by 1 Clement), really didn't take off until guys like Hegesippus and Irenaeus come along to combat Gnosticism. There's also a distinct lack of direct quotations from the Old and New Testament, suggesting a pre-Marcionite Church where disputes about the canon had not yet taken off. But again, we have literal direct attestation to the existence of Ignatius's letters by a contemporary, Polycarp, in his Epistle to the Philippians. Very few question the authenticity of Polycarp's epistle. Whatever reasons there might be to question the authenticity of the middle recension, those reasons are far outweighed by the reasons for accepting them. J.B. Lightfoot and Theodor Zahn settled the issue a century and a half ago. The debate is over. Those trying to resurrect old grievances, I fear, are motivated by ideological bias of some sort.
>>18446395>>18446395>we have literal direct attestation to the existence of Ignatius's letters by a contemporary, Polycarp, in his Epistle to the PhilippiansThat's discussed here: https://vridar.org/2013/03/17/manufacturing-ignatius-how-the-peregrinus-thesis-solves-many-problems/>in chapter 9 Ignatius and his companions are spoken of as if they were already dead, but in chapter 13 they are spoken of as being still alive! How is it that Polycarp knew of the martyrdom when he wrote chapter 9, but didn’t know it four chapters later? Many solutions have been offered but nothing even close to a consensus has been reached.>The scholars who reject the authenticity of the Ignatians (e.g., Völter, Turmel, Loisy, Weijenborg, Rius-Camps, Joly, Lechner, Hübner, Vinzent) see chapter 13 as an interpolation. It was made, they contend, at the same time and by the same person who reworked the so-called Ignatians. The interpolator’s intent was apparently both to present Polycarp as the one who gathered the letters into a collection and to attach the collection to a real martyr.And since the epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, as we have it, would have been (and I believe often is in manuscripts) attached to the Ignatian letters (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm "The Epistles of Ignatius written by him to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle") it can't really be thought of as an independent witness to them. It's their cover letter.
>>18446395Paul’s letters are also forgeries.
>>18445045Those are some zesty ass lions
>>18445536You are just as gullible as muslims with their hadith bullshit>muh chain of narration
>>18445680None of the churches which worship the dead are Christian>>18445718Take your meds
>>18445956>Ignatius also exhibits a strong corporeal view about the real presence in the EucharistNot even remotely, you might as well have said “disregard my every opinion I’m clueless”
>>18446637Very true. If you don’t believe all of history is fake you’re gullible. Do you believe aliens built the pyramids?
>>18446644You belong to the religion that claims that the earth is only 6000 years old, that humans only come from two people, that there was a global flood, that most animal species (except for the kosher) come from only two parents five thousand yers ago (except for the kosher one in that case there wer eseven of every kind according to your scripture). And you counter this by mentioning aliens building pyramid bullshit?
>>18446650I must correct myself. For the kosher ones it was not just seven individuals for every kind but seven pairs which means 14 individuals according to the holy scripture of jews and christians.
>>18446650>>18446658>I don’t like Christianity>therefore all of history is fakeSeems like unsound reasoning
>>18446662>all of historySince I mentioned the 6000 years do you believe that the earth is 6000 years old?In other words aren't you the ones saying that all of history is false? That there was no ice age? No paleolithic, no neolithic, no jurassic period etc?
>>18446671That’s not history, but it’s also just a red herring to distract from the fact your conspiracy theories would deny any and all historical facts if applied beyond Christian history.
>>18446679Do you believe in evolution?
>>18446681Relevance?
>>18446685nta but why don't you believe in evolution?
>>18446688Because the bible is the infallible word of God.
>>18446688I'm just trying to understand what you said there properly.>>18446679You said that's not history. Were you refering the 6000 years or all the ages and periods I mentioned there?
>>18446694Relevance?
>>18446692If you don't believe in evolution, then how you explain the fossil record, how do you explain biological taxonomy? How do you explain geological and astronomical findings?If you claim that it's all fake then aren't you the one spreading conspiracy theories while accusing others of doing it?
>>18446701I accept your concession.
>>18446650I should have mentioned flat earth. While the church fathers rejected a flat earth, the bible itself is more compatible with an ancient middlere eastern flat earth world view.If you say these flat earth passages are metaphorically then it would destroy your literalist creationist arguments. Why are the flat earth passages metaphorically but the creationist passages literal?
>>18446713There are no flat earth passages.
>>18445089that is not even remotely the scholarly consensus
>>18446467>>in chapter 9 Ignatius and his companions are spoken of as if they were already dead, but in chapter 13 they are spoken of as being still alive! How is it that Polycarp knew of the martyrdom when he wrote chapter 9, but didn’t know it four chapters later? Many solutions have been offered but nothing even close to a consensus has been reached.Brent addresses this in his book, writing,>Rius-Camp is anxious to claim that the passage shows Ignatius as already martyred so that he can claim that this passage is at variance with a statement occurring later in Polycarp's letter implying Ignatius was still alive, in which Polycarp claims that Ignatius had written a letter conjointly with the Philippians, referred to in the present tense, and was therefore still alive. Rius-Camp also resurrects the ancient claim that the surviving Latin version has accurately translated a Greek phrase that is tenseless as 'Ignatius and those who are with him' rather than simply 'Ignatius and his companions', thus making no claim about whether they are alive or dead. (Continued Below...)
>>18446467>Polycarp is in fact ambiguous about whether Ignatius has been martyred. He speaks not of Ignatius' confession and 'martyrdom' but of his 'endurance', which can be applied to him whether alive or dead. It is important, moreover, to grasp the effect created by Ignatius' choreographed procession where, as we have seen, as a 'bearer of sacred object' (hagiophoros) in the Christian mystery procession, he rattles his chains and claims that he wears already in the flesh the image or tupos of the suffering Father God by whose blood the Ephesians had been 'inflamed'. He is 'bound with bonds befitting divinity'. Ignatius considers that, in his struggle already begun his battle with wild beasts in the arena: 'I am fighting with wild beasts all the way from Syria to Rome by land and by sea, being bound to ten leopards, that is to say a detachment of soliders.' Already therefore he is expressing his future martyrdom as in the process of realization. Certainly Polycarp, somewhat diffidently, as I shall later argue, in a passage that Rius-Camps would attribute to the interpolator, catches the mood of Ignatius' procession coming through Symrna when he hails his entourage as 'imitations of true love.' >Thus we see that there is no real inconsistency, against the Hellenistic background that we have drawn...(Continued Below...)
>>18445089>>18446483It's interesting how, at least here on 4chan, it seems like anons are much more comfortable jumping to the conclusion that something is entirely forged than that it's in some sense genuine but has been tampered with.
>>18446467>But even if my resolution of the alleged discrepancy between various parts of Polycarp's Philippians (suggesting a living a a past Ignatius) were not thought satisfactory, this would not necessarily license an interpolation thesis. P.N. Harrison famously sought to establish that the present work represents two originally genuine letters of Olycarp, one written earlier when he was alive, one after the consummation of his martyrdom (see P.N. Harrison, Polycarp's Two Epistles to the Philippians, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1936)(Brent, pg. 100-103)As Brent notes, "the authenticity [of Polycarp's epistle] has not been challenged." Thus, regardless of what resolution we come to over this apparent discrepancy, one thing is certain, that nobody really doubts these are authentically Polycarp's words, and hence they continue to serve as reliable witness to the authenticity of Ignatius's epistles. Just admit it, you have a bias against the Ignatian letters being authentic, probably because you have commitments to Protestant (particularly Reformed) beliefs. But scholarship has, and continues to, consistently established the authenticity of the Ignatian epistles of the middle recension. Time after time after time they are vindicated against every attack made on them.
>>18446989Anons who are disputing the authenticity of the middle recension are likely angry Calvinists who can't handle the idea that the monarchical episcopate could exist so early in the history of Christianity. Their attacks fall flat every time in the face of real scholarship on these letters. It's embarrassing. When James White tried to lightly suggest that Ignatius of Antioch didn't exist (in spite of that fact that he literally utilized him in the past to prove the doctrine of the Trinity) while he was getting utterly hammered by Joe Heschmeyer in that debate about a year ago he completely humiliated himself and lost a lot of credibility. It's amazing how dogmatic Protestants can be while claiming the high ground on criticizing Catholic dogmatics.
>>18446467
>>18446713the Bible is completely in line with science. Enjoy hell.
>>18445680>None of the churches which believe in Ignatius as a saint believe thatThey do believe all humanity biologically descends from Adam and that death didn't exist until 6k years ago, which is actually an even more embarrassing belief
>>18447011Do you have any shame to be so dishonest?
