Nations are an illusion. You are indoctrinated to believe that you are compatriots with millions of people just because you share the same language or whatever but in reality, those millions of people are just total strangers
>>18445185I. YOU ARE CONFLATING THE NATION, WITH THE PATRIA.II. NATIONS ARE REAL; NATIONALISM IS ILLUSORY.III. IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO KNOW EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL FOR THERE TO BE A SHARED COMMONALITY.
Correct. We must all import 100 million indians into our cities
>Nations are an illusion.Even if they are an illusion, everyone (even you) operates like they are real and has been operating like they are real for thousands of years.>You are indoctrinated to believe that you are compatriots with millions of people just because you share the same language or whatever but in reality, those millions of people are just total strangersNo. Not just indoctrinated. My family and millions of others experienced the reality of being part of a nation, who lost a war and had their home stolen from them by Communists. Strange how everyone knew we were part of the same nation and didn't have to think much about it, huh?>are just total strangersExcept my culture historically valued guest rights, so you would actually be treated well as a stranger, so there goes that argument too.Now we can talk about Greece being a fake nation or Turkey or France, definitely the USA. There I would definitely agree with you it's an artificial entity. If no matter where you come from, Vietnam, China, Niger and you can just put a Hyphen and American behind it and people treat it seriously, then you definitely aren't a real nation. But Germany, Denmark, Britain, Sweden, Ireland? Definitely real countries. Italy? A geographic expression. Spain? On the edge, in 100 years they might be an unironic extension of the Hispanic world, because they are desperately clinging to geopolitical relevance like France with Francafrique. Russia? An Empire not a nation. Finland? Real. Turkey? Rump state of an Empire larping as a nation. Greece? The religious survivors of a defeated rump state of an Empire larping as a nation, because Westerners liked ancient history.
>>18445194>and has been operating like they are real for thousands of yearsit's amazingly ignorant to say this on a history board (try hundreds, and even that's a stretch for some countries)
>>18445185The people of my ethnic group are much, much more closely related to me than almost anyone outside of it. Not every nation is rooted in kinship, but many are.
>>18445197If you believe people just randomly started pretending to be part of an artificial new identity a few hundred years ago, then you are ignorant, because to unironically believe that without questioning it, reveals a profound lack of interest or curiosity in real history.You believe that religions are older than nations? That the concept of a religious identity besides an ethnic identity, which was introduced to Europeans by Christian priests, because they explicitly didn't want to give up their ethnic/cultural identity, but were fine with worshipping an additional Christ-God and were fine with being a Christian as an ADDITION to that they already were? An Anglo-Saxon for example? Christians literally converted the first English by falsifying history and making them believe the bible is a history about their own ancestors.But yeah religion is older than national identities. What a crazy belief! What a silly person you are! Unbelievable. What Communist book told you that? Or was is a Communist history professor? Or was it the Communists in your high school? You are indoctrinated!
>>18445207>communists are why 19th century intelligentsia had to teach people about the nations they had supposedly been a part of since time immemorial
Theres no such thing as nations or borders. Its all fake and made up by the elites. If youre a nationalist then youre a slave to the elites.
Economic class is more important than nationality
>>18445185>>18445197>>18445214>>18445219>>18445226
>>18445214>italian and french identities were memed into existence 200 years ago>therefore all ethnicities are fake
>>18445188Shut the fuck up chuchito, or else I'll call don cheto from la tiendita de la esquina to make him stop selling you Sabritones
>>18445231Japan's as pure a nation as you can get - no history of foreign rule, has its own language, even banned foreigners during the Edo periodand yet the Meiji government *still* had to do crazy things like "abolish 1000-year old province divisions", "ban the old state religion" (though they backed down on that one after a couple years and settled for separating out the shrines) and "have a public education system that was borderline brainwashing" to convince the average peasant they were Japanese now and not just part of their local domain
>>18445231Ethnicity is literally a social construct created by the elites to control us and distract us from the class struggles
>>18445185Every time I hear someone say that they also want to import millions of barbarians into my land to terrorize and exploit me.
>>18445185True. Russian and Han Chinese ones included
>Ethnicity is literally a social construct created by the elites to control us and distract us from the class struggles
>>18445185
>>18445185WHITE POWERRRRRRRRRRRR
>>18445374>millions of barbariansno longer exist, the world's all civilized state societies now. The only trve barbarians left live deep in the jungle and don't migrate.
>>18445185It's really not that deep bro, I just don't like mass immigration because it would be boring if every place on Earth turns brown
>>18445194>Now we can talk about Greece being a fake nation or Turkey or France, definitely the USA. There I would definitely agree with you it's an artificial entity.I think the U.S. is a "real" nation and I am an "American," but the issue is that nations are artificially constructed at first by elites as political projects to create a sense of cohesion, and then people come to believe in it, which does make them "real" in that sense. Nationalism creates nations, not the other way around.>If no matter where you come from, Vietnam, China, Niger and you can just put a Hyphen and American behind it and people treat it seriously, then you definitely aren't a real nation. But Germany, Denmark, Britain, Sweden, Ireland? Definitely real countries. Eh, it's a more civic nationalist concept that is removed from the more concrete paradigm of ethnicity that you see in Europe (which also existed there before the rise of nationalism). But one thing that really shook me out of the "German-American" stuff was actually going to Germany and being like, okay, I'm in a foreign country and these people are different. German nationalism and Irish nationalism also developed over time. Like what did being "German" mean in 1400. But it did mean something in 1900.>Russia? An Empire not a nation. It might be turning into one, and it's messy. How about Ukraine? There are Russian imperialists who don't think Ukraine is a real nation, while there are a lot of Ukrainians who insist it is. Then as a result of this war the Ukrainians emphasize a Ukrainian identity and the Ukrainian language more, artists will dress up in historical costumes:https://youtu.be/5CvzbWXn7_UHalf of the Ukrainian army's brigades have adopted a "Cossack" identity even though there aren't any Cossacks anymore, so the distinction between what's "real" and what's LARP breaks down, because it's not just LARP. So a nation might be something that can actually be created and succeed or fail (usually through warfare).
>>18445207>If you believe people just randomly started pretending to be part of an artificial new identityIt wasn't totally random, they didn't just pop up anywhere. What you needed was centralized institutions that could scale up identity and economic integration to connect far-flung regions to urban centers. Not every group became a nation because many ethnic groups and tribes have been absorbed by bigger national conglomerates, also you have halfway nations like Quebec and Palestine that got stuck.>You believe that religions are older than nations? Broadly speaking yes. Most of them.>That the concept of a religious identity besides an ethnic identity ... Christians literally converted the first English by falsifying history and making them believe the bible is a history about their own ancestors.It was very top down. Æthelberht in southeast England converted in 597 while building economic and diplomatic ties with the Frankish kingdoms that opened up Britain to further penetration by Christian missionaries.>What Communist book told you that? Or was is a Communist history professor? Eric Hosbawm to be precise. None of this is to imply that people didn't have strong identities before nationalism like "Christendom."
>>18445415If they require a stick to beat them into civility they are still barbarians, believe it or not.
>>18445207In any event, I think what you're doing is shadow-boxing with people who say nations are "artificial," and then following from that, imply a normative claim that there shouldn't "be" nations, like we should dissolve them and live in some one-world communist utopia. But I'm not implying that. What I'm saying is that people created nations, which makes them artificial in a sense because that just refers to things that people do. A nation isn't the same thing as like a rock or a tree. It's a construct that people generated but they come to believe in them. That's just descriptive.
>>18445185Nations are as fake as any other civilsational invention, like religions, institiutions, hierarchy, countries, organisations.They are as true, as people belive them to be true.If certain ammount of people belive that they are a part of a same group, that group factually exist, by the sheer will of that people. The group existance can be an effect of just belonging od the people.
>>18445185Nations used to be families. A nation used to be the descencants of X or Y man who founded X or Y city.
