Indra is the king of the devas and the god of rain, thunder, and war. He is functionally equivalent to other Indo-European storm gods like the Greek god Zeus, the Roman god Jupiter, the Norse god Thor, and the Slavic god Perun. He was the supreme god of the Hindu pantheon during the Vedic period, so why did Hindus later sideline him in favor of Vishnu?
Mitra-Varuna are the true original lordsWhatever power Indra obtained was through Varuna following certain... events that transpiredIsn't Perun etymologically related to Varun, anyway?
>>18453342>so why did Hindus later sideline him in favor of Vishnu?The Yajurveda is from the same period as Rigveda being at most 200 years later yet clearly the text is from the same people. It focuses more on Agni than on Indra because it is an entirely sacrificial text (Yajurveda means knowledge of sacrifice) unlike the Rigveda which were more about hymns. Since Agni is an intermediary deity, receiving sacrifices for the devas, he could not be considered the supreme being for himself. Instead, the Yajurveda cites Narayana (Vishnu) as the supreme god, identifying him with the Purusha of the Rigveda, whose hymn gave rise to the caste system that establishes the supremacy of Brahmanism as the successor to Vedism.>The Narayana Sukta or Narayana Suktam (Sanskrit: नारायणसूक्तम्, romanized: Nārāyaṇasūktam) is a Hindu hymn propitiating Narayana (Vishnu), featured in the 13th anuvaka (section) of the 10th prapathaka (chapter) of Taittiriya Aranyaka, which is part of the Krishna Yajurveda. In this hymn, Vishnu is extolled as the Supreme Being>"The thousand headed deity (Purusha), seer and sustainer of the world. The lord of the world is that Nārayana, who is imperishable and who is the supreme goal (paramam padam). The world is verily his manifestation; the world is alive because him, purusha is in it. He is lord and soul of the world, the unchanging, he is auspicious and unwavering. Narayana is the great knower; the Universal Soul, the goal; Narayana is the great illuminating one; Narayana is parabrahma; Supreme is Narayana." (Yajur Veda, Narayana Suktam 1-4)The interesting thing is that the author of the Purusha Sukta, according to Anukramani, was named Narayana.
>>18453455Since the Rigveda already contains hymns stating that Vishnu was the supreme being (Rigveda 1.22.20-21) and that all the devas were one (Rigveda 1.164.46), Indra lost his monopoly when Vedism/Brahmanism became less about chanting hymns/making sacrifices for worldly goods and more about philosophy/metaphysics of the self in relation to this and world, not that it wasn't already like that before.
In Hindu mythology, specifically within the Ramayana (Ram being an incarnation of Vishnu), the deity Indra is described as seducing Ahalya, the wife of Sage Gautama, by disguising himself as her husband. While some versions portray it as a deception leading to non-consensual sexual assault, other interpretations suggest consensual adultery out of curiosity. The incident resulted in severe curses for both.Upon discovering the act, Gautama cursed Indra to have a thousand female genitals (sahasrayoni) on his body, which were later turned into eyes.Ahalya was cursed to become a stone (or invisible/hidden) until purified by Lord Rama's (Vishnu’s) touch.
>>18453342Th religion got taken over by no-fun-allowed life-denying vegetarian autists who hated the idea of worshipping a warlike chad Sky Father. Kikes and Christians are unironically more trad than Hindus because at least Yahweh is a proper Sky Father-type god.
>>18453708>please step on me skydaddy Grow up
>>18453460No religion just straight up lies about what their texts say hoping nobody will check more than Vaishnava>the Rigveda already contains hymns stating that Vishnu was the supreme being (Rigveda 1.22.20-21) This says nothing of the sort, it says: "The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Viṣṇu is,Laid as it were an eye in heaven. This, Viṣṇu's station most sublime, the singers, ever vigilant, Lovers of holy song, light up." (https://sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01022.htm)You simply lied here.>and that all the devas were one (Rigveda 1.164.46)This says Indra, Mithra, Agni, and Varuna are the same god. They are all the light, heat, and truth gods. Sorry Vaishnava but not everyone is worshipping Vishnu all the time and not everything is Vishnu
>>18453708Suddenly vegetarianism is anti aryan and foreign to aryans?Next you'll say aryans hated cows.
>>18454148Objectively, Aryans were pastoralists who loved cattle because they ate them and owning cattle was an entire way of life. Vegetarianism developed in India later on.
>>18454209So who convinced the highest caste of indians called brahmins who have been recorded to have been vegetarian for ages, to eat dung and drink piss?The highest caste of indians aka the whitest indians drink the most piss.
>>18454235It developed in India. Why do you need outside forces to convince them? Indians convinced themselves. Aryans were originally non-Indian foreigners who migrated INTO India and adopted aspects of local culture while innovating new culture that had no relation to their ancestors.
>>18454243Brahmins all had blond hair and blue eyes like 500 years ago.
>>18454246I'm not even arguing that. Is this supposed to be sarcasm?I'm just stating a really simple fact. Aryans arrived as part of the Indo-European migrations. Indo-Europeans were pastoralists as a way of life. They could not survive as vegetarians. They gradually migrated over generations from the steppe of Eastern Europe all the way to India because they were nomads. They had no long term farms. Vegetarianism = starving to death for them historically. It was only possible after settling down and adopting a sedentary lifestyle.
>>18453342Devas and Asuras of the Vedas are lowercase gods (angels) that simply operate within the created universe, and we're originally worshiped to imbue specific attributes within the sacrificer.Until you get the concept of Brahman in the upanishads, there wasn't really a "main" deity in the Vedas. Surya-Savitr would be the closest as being "higher" than Indra.The Puranic texts are much later and where you develop the focus on Vishnu, Shiva, etc and the devas are finally shown as being dependent on Brahmans manifestations (Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, take your pick).
>>18453342Most likely, it was a matter of popular religious tendencies ultimately winning out over the ivory tower mindset of upper crust tastes. It's easy to forget that the bulk of the Ṛgveda was composed around, not even the Brāhmaṇa's responsibilities as a whole, but specifically all that was in and adjacent to the soma rites. Indra was clearly preeminent in that regard, but it's not exactly obvious one way or the other whether he ever enjoyed comparable esteem in the Early Vedic laity. As other posters have brought up ITT, there are more than hints in the saṃhitās of the existence of a great diversity of religious thinking in Indus basin from earliest recorded times, which by and large were not elaborated upon in contemporary Vedic composition because these reflected a narrow subset of concerns of an already narrow segment of the overall Ārya population.
>>18453342This guy >>18453455 makes some important points. To add to what he said, Narayana was identified not only with the primordial god Purusha, but also Vishnu who was already a solar god who bestrode the cosmos in the Rigvedic hymns. Then the divinised hero Vasudeva was syncretised with the other divinised hero Krishna, and Krishna-Vasudeva was then identified with Narayana-Vishnu to create the Vishnu known from medieval Puranas. Greek sources made a big deal about how Indians worship Herakles and have loads of stories about him, probably referring to Krishna-Vasudeva who is depicted wielding a mace which they interpreted as Herakles' club.>The interesting thing is that the author of the Purusha Sukta, according to Anukramani, was named Narayana.Interesting! Reminds me of the Norse poet god Bragi who might be named after Bragi the Old who composed famous skaldic poems.
>>18453718I'm trans if anyone cares btw.
>>18454125Paramam padam means supreme place, not loftiest place, the verse before it confirms this:>"The Gods be gracious unto us even from the place whence Viṣṇu strode. Through the seven regions of the earth! Through all this world strode Viṣṇu; thrice his foot he planted, and the whole. Was gathered in his footstep's dust. Viṣṇu, the Guardian, he whom none deceiveth, made three steps; thenceforth establishing his high decrees. Look ye on Viṣṇu's works, whereby the Friend of Indra, close-allied, Hath let his holy ways be seen. The princes evermore behold."Vishnu held the supreme position because he occupied all the space in the universe as the Purusha.>>18454272>Then the divinised hero Vasudeva was syncretised with the other divinised hero Krishna, and Krishna-Vasudeva was then identified with Narayana-Vishnu to create the Vishnu known from medieval PuranasThe first mention of Krishna in the Vedic literature is found in the Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6), where he is mentioned as a disciple of the rishi Ghora, father of Kanva.>"The sage Ghora, of the family of Aṅgirasa, taught this truth to Kṛṣṇa, the son of Devakī. As a result, Kṛṣṇa became free from all desires. Then Ghora said: ‘At the time of death a person should repeat these three mantras: “You never decay, you never change, and you are the essence of life.”’ Here are two Ṛk mantras in this connection.The Rigveda hymn I posted (Rigveda 1.22) was written by Medhatithi Kanva, one of the members of the Kanva clan who created the first and eight mandala of the Rigveda along with the Angiras. Indeed, there is a rishi named Krishna who belongs to the Kanva clan mentioned in the first and eighth mandalas.
>>18454519>Mandala 1 can be divided into two parts: suktas 1-50 and 51-191. The first part consists of six groups of hymns by individual poets, many of whom belong to the Kanva bardic family. The much longer and older second part is divided into nine groups of hymns, also by individual poets belonging to various bardic families; the hymns in these groups are arranged according to the same rules as in the Family Books>The hymns in the second part are some of the ‘most glorious’ in the Rigveda, and the poets some of the most distinctive including Kakshivant, Dirghatamas, and Agastya (Brereton and Jamison, 2020, p. 27)>The hymns in the first part, by contrast, are quite unremarkable—with the exception of the magnificent sukta 32, to Indra, which describes his triumph over the serpent Vritra>Each hymn of the Rigueveda is traditionally attributed to a specific rishi, and the "family books" (2-7) are said to have been written by a different family of rishis each. The main families, listed by the number of verses attributed to them, are:>Angirasas: 3619 (especially Mandala 6)>Kanvas: 1315 (especially Mandala 8 and 1)>Vasishthas: 1267 (Mandala 7)>Vaishvamitras: 983 (Mandala 3)>Atris: 885 (Mandala 5)>Bhrgus: 473>Kashyapas: 415 (part of Mandala 9)>Grtsamadas: 401 (Mandala 2)>Agastyas: 316>Bharatas: 170
>>18454521>"To Kṛṣṇa's son, to Viśvaka who praised you, O Heroes, ye restored his son Viṣṇāpū. To Ghorā, living in her father's dwelling, stricken in years, ye gave a husband, Aśvins. Ruṣatī, of the mighty people, Aśvins, ye gave to Śyāva of the line of Kaṇva. This deed of yours, ye Strong Ones should be published, that ye gave glory to the son of Nṛṣad." - RigVeda 1.117.7-8>“Kṛṣṇa invokes you, Aśvins rich in sacrifices, that you may drink the exhilarating Soma. Leaders (of all), hear the invocation of Kṛṣṇa, the hymner, who praises you-- that you may drink theexhilarating Soma." - Rigveda 8.85.3-4
>>18454519>>18454521>>18454522Bharata, patriarch of the Pandavas and Kauravas, protagonists of the Mahabharata/Bhagavad Gita, was the adopted grandson of Kanva. BTW It was the Itihasa (Sanskrit Spics) like this one and the Ramayana that popularized the Bhagavata Sampradaya/Vrishni heroes/Pancharatra (Vasudevism/Vaishnavism/Krishnaism) among the masses, along with the Puranas.>The Mahabharata states that King Dushyanta was once hunting in the forests, when he arrived at the ashrama of Sage Kanva. In the sage's absence, his adoptive daughter, Shakuntala welcomed Dushyanta, who became smitten by her beauty. Shakuntala revealed the story of her birth- how she was raised by Sage Kanva after she was born from the union of the celestial nymph, Menaka, and Sage Vishvamitra>Dushyanta expressed his desire to marry Shakuntala, who consented on the condition that Dushyanta must crown the son born of their union the king. Dushyanta agreed and married Shakuntala according to the Gandharva marriage. Afterwards, Dushyanta left for his kingdom>Meanwhile, Sage Kanva learnt about Shakuntala's marriage to Dushyanta and revealed that she would give birth to an emperor. In due course, Shakuntala gave birth to Dushyanta's son and named him Sarvadamana, who had the sign of a Chakra on his right hand (indicating that he was destined to be an emperor)>Sarvadamana was born with the strength of 10,000 elephants, and even as a child, he was capable of subduing and taming wild beasts. A few years later, Sage Kanva advised Shakuntala to take her son to Dushyanta>Eventually, Bharata became the king and conquered the world. The Drona Parva states that Bharata performed 1,800 Ashwamedha Yagnas, 100 Rajasuya Yagnas, and hundreds of Vajapeya Yagnas. Bharata's grandfather, Sage Kanva, officiated all his sacrificial rituals, and the emperor donated countless horses and 10 trillion gold coins to his grandfather
>>18453342It was a coup against the old aryan gods .
>>18454519>>18454519>Paramam padam means supreme place, not loftiest placeSorry that translators who don't agree with your Vaishnava lies translate it accurately. Do you want us to go with your ISKON-approved translation?>Vishnu held the supreme position because he occupied all the space in the universe as the Purusha.It says no such thing. You have to quote it saying the same sort of thing it says about many gods and then say "what this REALLY means is..."Just like your Vaishnavas changed their chant to have Krishna first instead of Rama because they are pretty. They come up with ideas first then try to twist everything written around it. This may work with uneducated Westerners wanting to "vibe, bro" but it won't work here.
>>18454272That guy>>18453455 is a brazilian schizo. He mixes historical facts with bullshit he invented and then spams threads. He loves fat women and black people.You shouldn't trust him.
>>18454637>Paramam: Inherited from Proto-Indo-Iranian *páras, from Proto-Indo-European *pér-o-s. Compare Hittite 𒁉𒂊𒊏𒀭 (pēran), Ancient Greek πέρᾱ (pérā).">पर॑ • (pára) stem>(with ablative) other, different (than)>far, distant, remote>unfamiliar, alien>opposite>ulterior>ancient>following, succeeding, subsequent, next>final, last, ultimate>more than, exceeding>left, remaining>concerned, anxious, nervousNone of the meanings is loftiest, you retard. If the highest place where Vishnu is located is not the supreme, then he is not the highest, and vice versa. What's your problem with Vaishnavas? Neither you nor I are Hindus to have sectarian issues.
>>18454252>As other posters have brought up ITT, there are more than hints in the saṃhitās of the existence of a great diversity of religious thinking in Indus basin from earliest recorded times, which by and large were not elaborated upon in contemporary Vedic composition because these reflected a narrow subset of concerns of an already narrow segment of the overall Ārya populationIf Vaishnavas want to convince themselves/others that Vishnu was not a minor deva in Rigveda they should refer to the below verse where Vishnu singularly has been given the epithet of "many-hymned". They are definitely not referring to the 5 hymns that have survived to this date in Rigveda as "many hymned".>"Why to the great and nutriment-conveying Pūṣan? why to Rudra, the object of worship, the giver of the oblation (to the gods)? why to the many-hymned Viṣṇu? why tell our sin to the extensive year." - Rig Veda 4.3.7
>>18454676I'm sorry your doctrines need you to disagree with the translators. >None of the meanings is loftiest, you retardNone of them is "supreme".>If the highest place where Vishnu is located is not the supreme, then he is not the highestCorrect. So why do you say he is?
>>18454684There's something weirdly interesting about watching Vishnu vs. Shiva debates: https://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/971443-vaishnavism-is-independent-shaivism-is-dependent/I think if it weren't for hating Muslims uniting them, Hindus would really fight this one out all the time
>>18453342Pantheons shorts over time. In Europe we had the Celts and later the Germans demoting their Dyeus-Pater equivalents in favor of other Gods that became more popular.In the specific case of the Norse we know that ecentually their Hermes became the new pantheon leader (Hodin): and we have indirect hints that likely also thanks to the influence of Christianity in the last phase of their paganism their norse-equivalent of Christ was getting more and more popular too (Baldr)
>>18453718>please step on me skydaddyThis, but unironically.
>>18454705It doesn't even make sense when all the Puranas make sure to explicate that Shiva and Vishnu are the same being in different forms, Shiva Purana even curses those who are convinced they're separate. Iirc in the Mahabharata Krishna even says he is also Shiva. Crazy they agree on 99% of philosophy and metaphysics but diverge on object of devotion
