What the fuck happened? Was the Church in such a particularly dire state that required such a 180?
>>18461376The church worried that it was becoming increasingly irrelevant in a society where secularism was flourishing after the World Wars, and the Church still held on to centuries old mass and social teaching. Thus they changed the liturgy, fasting rules etc to make it more modern and accessible to the layman. Had the opposite effect though, people felt the sacred had been ripped out it.
>>18461376>What the fuck happened?they swore allegiance to the synagogue of satan
>>18461376mandatory unwanted "update" like Windows 11
>>18461695People don't flock to the church when it makes concessions to the world, compromises itself and it's message with secular ideas and profane concerns.We get enough of the world everyday.They go to church to take part in something that is explicitly not of this world.It's specifically because the church offers something you can't get from the world, so when people start identifying materialist goods with virtue and the actual ends of the church, as the "liberation theology" popularized by actual KGB agents has spread, they allow these worldly cares to dominate their mind. Jesus explicitly warns against this.That's not to say alms and temporal service to the poor aren't important.amd a core tenent of the faith, but they shouldn't be the overriding concern of the church to the detriment of other things, since you will *always* have the poor with you. The primary aim of the church is the salvation of souls, not the improvement of worldly living conditions or the elimination of poverty through political ends. I suspect that if they focused on that aspect of the commission those other things would naturally fall into place over time anyways.Excessive ecumenism is also kind of a fail, and has not been effective in creating an environment conducive to the gospel message or a safe environment for Christians of all stripes in the third world, especially when it comes to Islam. One upside of this though is the effort to reconcile with the autocephalous east, which should be seen as far more important to the health of global Christendom.
>>18461376The holy Spirit moves throughout time, and the Church always has to follow. The temporal Church isn't meant to be frozen in time.People who want to Church to never change are people who cannot change themselves. God is leading us all somewhere, and the kingdom will always come regardless, whether you want it to or not.
In short, V2 itself, when read properly, isn't as bad as it's detractors claim. But it's language is confusing and vague, which is bad because that leaves room for error.However, the way it has been used by modernist factions in the church and what they claim to justify through invoking it is exactly as bad as it's detractors claim.The overly obscure and confusing language used left the door open for these forces to claim their errors are perfectly in line with the church teaching of all ages.
>>18461703Christianity IS the synagogue of Satan.
Because sane, successful, information-exposed people don't want pre Vatican II Catholicism. Nobody wants to spend their lives listening to freak homosexuals in robes tell them what to do in a dead language and pass it off as something God wants, unless they're seriously ignorant or fucked up
>>18461376They saw that church attendance drop slightly, freaked out, and decided "opening the doors" would save them. All it did was drive more people away. "B-b-b-but what about the Third World". The reason their Catholicism is going up is because they're having more kids. Not because of some concession Vatican II made. Most of them would be Catholic anyway. Also American style Pentecostal evangecalism is taking South America and Africa by storm. They're converting because Catholicism is too soft on homosexuals and other issues.
They were infiltrated by Jews, communists, Marxists and Freemasons after the defeat of Germany in World War II. The Vatican had to reform due to the infiltration, folding to denazification and anti-Hitler propaganda smear campaigns post World War II.
>>18462264>God is leading us all somewhereInto a cringe, gayer version of the religion nobody actually wants to be in except brain-rotted boomers who are just there because they can't fathom not being in a church.Everyone I know who converted in the big Trad-Wave in the 2010s unironically wanted Medieval or like Pre-20th century Catholicism.They walk in, realize not only is it not that but the entire institution basically makes a humiliation ritual out of being sorry for what a fucking toddler knows is actually the coolest shit ever.Personally I miss it but I'm glad to be out of it. TradCatism's failure allowed me to explore and learn about other options.Besides it also made me realize shilling for these kind of systems and societies only works because in your mind you imagine you're one of the people with the power and the authority. Nobody wants to be Shit-Shoveling Burgher in Cologne. So why adopt an ideology like that anyway?
>>18461376Instead of fighting to preserve what little power they had left. They somehow convinced themselves that giving the power up is a "virtue". Prior to Vatican II being a Catholic was about creating a society that's submissive to God. Now it's some vague gay "being a joyful disciple" shit.
>>18463566TradCath larpers were never truly Catholic. It was yet another conservative larp about something you don't understand and only want to co-op the aesthetic from.I truly hope some of the converts actually studied the religion on the merits of its history and teachings, as just trying to copy the visuals and "feelings" of a religion no one born post 1950 has any actual experience with was never going to work.> Besides it also made me realize shilling for these kind of systems and societies only works because in your mind you imagine you're one of the people with the power and the authority.Your ego is far to big to properly connect with any community past shallow aesthetics.
>>18461695The Church opened the doors and the people simply walked out. Religion can only survive when it's enforced from top down by fear, violence and social pressure.
>>18463778>TradCath larpers were never truly Catholic.I'll agree to that. But then again, most of the bishops, clergy and mainstream Catholics aren't either. If you can just change the rules on a 2k year-old religion or not follow it with 0 consequences, being a part of it is really a totally meaningless thing. It asks nothing of you but the bare minimum and does not ever attempt to correct bad behavior or reward good behavior.>Your ego is far too big to properly connect with any community past shallow aesthetics.I'm a middle-aged man now. If you want to judge me by the attitudes I had as a young teenager, that's totally fine. If you had real reading comprehension skills you could easily ascertain that I was this way once and no longer am now.
>>18461695John XXIII was a globalist plant that replaced Pius XII (a Nazifascist plant). So immediately summoned a council to reshape the Church to the wishes of the new rules of the world. The actuall expected successor unofficially nominated by Pius XII was sabotated in FOUR different conclaves, and the two Popes that lead the Vatican II were proclaimed as Saints without the normal procedures that takes usually decades to make the whole council divindely mandate and thus impossible for future Popes to dismantle (anything made by recognized Saints are part of the Catholics Dogma and future Popes cannot contradict It)
>>18463820>and the two Popes that lead the Vatican II *John XXIII and Paul VI, to be specific. Both apointed by the pozzed/modernist faction of the Church
>>18463805>If you had real reading comprehension skills you could easily ascertain that I was this way once and no longer am now.>They walk in, realize not only is it not that but the entire institution basically makes a humiliation ritual out of being sorry for what a fucking toddler knows is actually the coolest shit ever.I read correctly.>If you can just change the rules on a 2k year-old religion or not follow it with 0 consequences, being a part of it is really a totally meaningless thing.I am going to guess you haven't read a single document of Vatican 2, let alone know about church history other than the middle ages. The Church has gone through many many many changes in 2k years lmao. The medieval Church was nothing like the founding Church, but the core teachings have been structurally the same across time and aesthetics. Vatican 2 didn't change anything structurally of the core teachings.
>>18463318JRR Tolkien was so angry at V2 modifying the liturgy that he loudly proclaimed the responses of the mass in Latin regardless of what everyone else around him was doing.You're not a sane or well informed person.Whereas he was a dedicated and well renowned linguist and legendary author.
>>18463820>anything made by recognized Saints are part of the Catholics Dogma lmaothat's just not correct even a little
Roman Catholicism, like every denomination, is defined by it's differences to the others. So it's only really almost 1000 years old.
>>18461376The Catholic Church has always been a force of progress
>>18463855Okay, sure pal - whatever. Honestly I'm just glad I'm done insitutionally with that dumpster fire of an organized religion. Literally all they had to do was bring all the cool shit back and people would have kept flocking in. The average White Man is desperate for meaning and spiritual vitality, but keep sending their tithe money to fund their demographic replacement and telling them>erm no ackshually having the fucking deus vult religion was really problematic hunny :^)Tell me how it goes.
>>18461376Transalpine Redemptorists declared sede vacantis the other day
>>18461376Not at first glance. But when observed in context the answer is yes. Being the Church of Blowhard was very clearly not working out, and the (political, social) pressure would only increase as time went on. And the idea that Vatican II somehow enabled the secularization and desertion of believers is tradcath fanfiction under the bizarre assumption everyone cared about the things they do. Had the church doors remained closed, the people would jump out of the windows. They didn't even liberalize as hard as people claim they did, it was essentially the bare minimum to not fall into huge problems, make allies, entice the lay people back, etc. >>18463328You are very ignorant if you believe protestantism is growing in South America and Africa because of their stance on homosexuality. The average slum dweller joins a charismatic church because there's music, they sing, they dance, and they do magic. You will not be luring them back with an exacting tridentine mass conducted by an anal retentive Thomists. At the very least in Latin America (where I have knowledge and experience), the religion actually practiced by the lay people existed mostly divorced from the Church and its Theology.
>>18464409Also: The Type of catholic who genuinely thinks the Church is too soft of fags is not going to become a fucking protestant
>>18464411That's exactly the type of Catholic that becomes Protestant.
yes basicallyEven by 1935, when WW2 broke out, the church had ceased being important in the average person's life. This is why WW2 happened in the first place. Hitler would go on to kill well over 10 million catholics, numerous clergy, often in horrible, humiliating and gruesome ways. Very few of these people ever faced justice for their crimes. Europe was now divided by the explicitly Atheist Socialists, and the half-atheist Protestant Americans. Regardless of who won, there was no way the church's system could continue to function. Nobody wanted to hear latin nor wanted to learn it.For example, the church's constant coddling of the Aristocracy and wealth especially in Southern Europe. These forces prevented industrialization, and basically caused Fascism to happen. When the Fascists were defeated, the Socialists became the largest block by Plurality. At this point the only thing stopping the USSR and Comintern was the American CIA shooting them. Europe's entire defense now rested on a few Protestants in Northern Virginia.
Look at the failure of the largest catholic state in Asia: French Indochina. The church dug it's heels in there, and it failed. France gave up and walked away. All the church's investments were now in Ngo Dinh Diem, who was subsequently killed when the CIA decided he was no longer of use. The CIA's own assessments, based on a RAND report, showed that catholicism in Vietnam was weak and declining, and that the wealthy businessmen, intellectuals and diplomats keeping the catholic regime alive were very weak and not respected. Then, the entire war effort would fail with complete conquest by the Socialists in 1975.There is no way the old system could survive such shocks. At every point in every country people asked the church why they should worship a god that hordes money, influence and power in Rome. When the church pointed to it's long history, it's libraries and it's architecture, people immediately spat back that it was all useless and should be razed for something useful. Americans went to the moon, the pope dug out another tunnel under the Vatican. The larger space race and cold war behind this all made the Vatican about as relevant as the Orthodox church - which wielded full total control over the Imperial Russian state, then completely destroyed and discarded by the Socialists.So really that's how you have to look at it. When the largest churches die from Communism, the Vatican did not want to be next. Islam wasn't a big force yet, since it lacked money. The OPEC crisis and subsequent changes to American foreign policy would change that, but that would not really finish until Reagan's second term in 1984.
>>18464559Life doesn't suck outside. Not at the time at least. For Socialist countries the Communists offered a moderately good living standard and for American aligned countries, secular people could go to college and make money. The church's colleges still had issues with basic biology (evolution etc) that had already been proven by science, and the church could not keep up with the discovery of DNA or the Human Genome Project. There is no way the old church could have dealt with that or accepted Dolly the (cloned) Sheep, as modification of god's work in such ways is totally and completely prohibited as heresy under the original codices.
>>18461376speaking of the Catholic Church.......according to msn.com, Pope Leo was hung up on by a customer service rep while trying to update his address after being elected pope.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/insight/pope-leo-hung-up-on-by-bank-over-policy-rules/gm-GM2BCAA97E?gemSnapshotKey=GM2BCAA97E-snapshot-1
>>18461695>Had the opposite effect thoughsource?
>>18461376One of the big changes in Vatican II was that the Church abandoned its traditional view that the Jews had committed deicide and were condemned to Hell.
>>18464591https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w34060/w34060.pdf
>>18463328>They're converting because Catholicism is too soft on homosexuals and other issuesNot even Catholicism, its all Western branches of Christianity that fail to address core third-world concerns. Just look at how all the African churches split from the Anglicans recently. The bombastic teachings of American churches, followed by the "extreme" investments (See: erecting a tin shed and taking a few exchange students a year) into their communities is what is winning them over.
>>18464409>And the idea that Vatican II somehow enabled the secularization and desertion of believers is tradcath fanfiction under the bizarre assumption everyone cared about the things they do. Had the church doors remained closed, the people would jump out of the windows.The people who believed would stay, the ones who didn't would go.If you show that you yourself don't believe, you push out the former while the latter still have no reason to stay.
>>18461376>What the fuck happened?catholic boys getting fucked in the ass
>>18461703You're retarded. Catholics have been against the forced conversion of Jews for over a thousand years.
>>18464657>And supporting refugees fleeing kike and moslem terrorism is hardly a satanic takeThey're being used as a biological weapon against numerous countries.Charity is fine and good. But nobody asked us to harbor the burden of the third world. We were told we needed to let invaders inhabit our lands and that we were bad people if we didn't go along with Tikkun Olam bullshittery
>>18464566>according to msn.comgrandma, please go back to facebookmsn stories are content aggregated from other websitse, and msn explicitly uses AI to write stories now
Vatican II is moses coming down from Mt Sinai, seeing everyone worshipping a golden calf statue, and saying "oh. Um th-thats ok... I'll worship the calf too if it means so much to you guys"
>>18464657If those secular institutions hate the catholic church, why do catholic charities get billions in funding from those institutions to help 'resettle' refugees?>Catholic Charities—and the same could be said about the Association of Jewish Family and Children's Agencies or the Lutheran Services in America—has become over the last three decades an arm of the welfare state, with 65 percent of its $2.3 billion annual budget now flowing from government sources
>>18463932Point me some doctrinal/dogmatic statement by recognized historical saints that were later rejected by the Church
>>18464411Evangecalism is the face of current protestantism. They're more conservative than catholics on average.
>>18464641Latinos want something "traditional" and "meaningful" and today's Catholicism is basically some boomer Woodstock shit.
>>18464813There are plenty of things canonized saints have said or written that contradict Catholic doctrine.Being a saint doesn't mean everything you say is inerrant, or that your understanding is perfect.
>>18464813Numerous, numerous examples. St Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, argued against the dogma of the immaculate conception.I agree that that was probably the motivation for the rapid canonizations, but it does not make them infallible.
>>18464560Diem was propped up by the US to the point it expedited the movement of hundreds of thousands of ardently anti-communist Catholics from the North to support his regime in the South
>>18464661Liberal propaganda. The press sold out to international Jewry is quite amusing. They take the "report" of a well-known anti-clerical socialis that contains only 334 testimonies from alleged victims and another 39 indirect testimonies (family members, etc.). So, supposedly 487 total cases since 1950. Then, this biased leftist also conducts a survey of the Spanish population: 8,000 telephone (cooked) surveys where 0.6% say that a priest or religious figure has ever molested them. Not even this deceitful anti-Spanish and anti-Catholic man dares to extrapolate the data, but the lackey press of international Jewry does: 200,000 with two balls and a huge nerve.Furthermore, in the official figures, only 0.2% of all child abuse cases were committed by a priest. They are usually family members, acquaintances, neighbors, etc. And within the strangers there are groups with a much higher prevalence (internet users, teachers, extracurricular activity monitors, healthcare workers...) who are not required to apologize as a "group".
>>18465237Or maybe an institution that demands its (exclusively male) members abstain permanently from any romantic/sexual relationship with the opposite sex is inevitably going to become a magnet for fruit cakes that don't want to make their abuela/nonna cry by coming out of the closet - and all the problems that entails.
>>18464525What have you seen that backs that up? >>18465062What I mean is that if you meet a catholic hardcore enough to think the Church isn't socially conservative enough they aren't going to defect to protestantism for other reasons. Maybe a lukewarm catholic who becomes more socially conservative when he becomes protestant, idk. But that's another thing.
The only thing conservatives (right-wing liberals) manage to conserve (and ultimately ratify) is the degenerate "advances" of the leftists (left-wing liberals). They are one and the same, and they work for the same master. They pretend to oppose it, but they always end up accepting "progress" because they start from the same flawed premise.The only opposition to this (evangelical) liberalism is true traditionalism (genuine Catholicism, not the Protestant/Judaic-tainted kind of Vatican II).
>>18465257Not that it applies to Latin America, where good natured people genuinely think 'Christian' and 'Catholic' are different things.>>18465278As demonstrated by the prior two centuries where they have done nothing but lose, presumably.
>>18465291Then after being absolutely trounced, cite Paul writing about 'the World' and pretend you never could have won in the first place because Satan. Gómez Dávila at least had dignity.
>>18464813The Church doesn't follow Joan of Arc's claim that England was literally being punished by God during the HYW.
>>18465173>>18465206>>18465518None of these are both Saints AND Popes. The Papal ex cathedra Infallibility is a dogma and both of them called for it during Vatican II. Its the only council together with Vatican II that was held under this dogma. So neither of them can be abrogated without abrogate the Papal infallibility dogma
>>18461695It made no sense to change supersessionism No sense whatsoever
>>18464560I dunno, Islam is in a worse state than the Catholic Church even before acknowledging the schism with a growth entirely tied to births within existing Islamic families, yet it can still go toe-to-toe with the world's superpowers in a world that says half of its traditions are illegal. The problem is in the clergy's lack of responsibility, since making a stance on anything requires fucks none of the upper echelons want to give when they can continue to be a kitschy tourist site to fund a perpetual medieval LARP instead.
>>18465537Weird goal post moving. You asked for a saint, and I gave you one who is also a doctor of the church. You understand neither the office of the Supreme Pontiff nor the criteria for papal infallibility.
