>>18465803
>with the exception being that there is no afterlife, neither reward nor punishment
Then nothing about the New Testament (and a significant chunk of the Old Testament) would make any fucking sense I'm afraid. In what sense would it be inspired by God if it gets such fundamental topics wrong?

>If God were real and He inspired the Bible, and Jesus were in fact the Messiah
Sure, if we grant your big if, it'd be insane or irrational not to bow to this authority.

>>18465812
>Then nothing about the New Testament (and a significant chunk of the Old Testament) would make any fucking sense I'm afraid. In what sense would it be inspired by God if it gets such fundamental topics wrong?
Not really, most of the Bible is about right action and how to live in society. If you actually took the time to read it as a book full of critiques on ancient Israel you'd see it for what it is. The reward and punishment element is specifically to incentivize people to do the right thing. Otherwise, what's the point?
>Sure, if we grant your big if, it'd be insane or irrational not to bow to this authority.
Again, no reward or punishment, no afterlife. He's not going to punish you for not following it.

>>18465828
>The reward and punishment element is specifically to incentivize people to do the right thing
No it's not, moron. The New Earth and Judgement and Hell are the core of the doctrine therein. Without those, Jesus being sacrificed makes no sense, and the Jews following Yahweh make no sense.
This is given YOUR hypothetical that its all true.

>>18465828
>most of the Bible is about right action and how to live in society. If you actually took the time to read it as a book full of critiques on ancient Israel you'd see it for what it is.
That's why I specifically mentioned the New Testament (and a significant chunk of the Old, especially the latter eschatological stuff that largely inspired the New)

>Again, no reward or punishment, no afterlife. He's not going to punish you for not following it.
So what? I'd want to follow such a supreme and enlightened existence by principle.

>>18465828
also
>He's not going to punish you for not following it.
a good 10% of the Old Testament aims to push the claim that God, in fact, will. Entire chapters solely devoted to describing the gruesome wrath of God for those who don't obey.

>>18465803
The better gotcha is to point out the unlikeliness that their specific "no god required" morality is the completely intuitive godless one when it's only existed for like 50 years at most and only in extremely specific cultural conditions

>>18465864
and also that it suspiciously resembles our inherited Christian morality minus the extremely specific problematic dogmas that conflict with the western political economy. And they say religious people are the ones being manipulated. Every single deviance of athiest and mainstream agnostic morality from Christian morality can be explained by politically convenient cultural conditioning

>>18465864
The superior morality could have been distilled from a 21st century isekai manga for all I care.

It turns out that when you strip all the asinine and embarrassing tribal folk tales or bronze age legal minutia from religious scripture, you can end up with some surprisingly deep and inspiring stuff, because human beings tried to write down what they considered the most important wisdom and moral truths of their day, be they Hebrews or Vedics or Han.

>>18465869
And now you retreat to the bailey which is that moderns (because you're not really athiests) don't really hold any dogmas. Tell me what extremely specific combination of moral truths you've syncretized that you definitely came up with yourself allow you to put up with the society we live in and keep paying taxes? lol

>>18465867
>politically convenient cultural conditioning
Why, you've perfectly summed up organized religion.

>>18465877
IF Christianity is cultural conditioning, and that doesn't necessarily inply it's bad if the religion is true, is the rejection of it somehow completely independent of the same forces that allowed the conditioning in the first place?

>>18465873
>moderns (because you're not really athiests)
I am most definitely an atheist, since I don't believe any gods exist.
I have no idea what the fuck a modern is supposed to be in your parlance, on other hand.

>>18465867
>Current belief systems derive from previous ones and are context dependent
Keen observer over here.

>>18465883
You're a modern athiest because what you believe is distinctly modern and couldn't exist organically outside of responding to the entire (often Christian) history that came before it. Pagans don't exist anymore because the entire apparatus that allowed them to exist was destroyed. You think you're standing outside of religious history and act as a purely critical observer when in fact you're the one most enmeshed in it. Nothing is wrong except when it taps into a deep emotional reaction that causes you to say "that must be wrong", and everyone knows except you how weird it is that your anomalous moral compass fits modern society perfectly but according to you, completely coincidentally

>>18465879
>if the religion is true
IF the religion were true, then it would be irreplaceable divinely inspired knowledge about the world and the nature of reality.
It's not though, so it's mostly politically convenient social conditioning like the others.
>is the rejection of it somehow completely independent of the same forces that allowed the conditioning in the first place?
Isn't this just another "do you resent living in a society" question?

You seem like a very individualistic and socially maladjusted brat, what exactly draws you towards organized religion instead of more personal forms of mysticism?

>>18465893
>Isn't this just another "do you resent living in a society" question?
I don't resent living in society and most people don't and that's entirely the point. The categorical imperative could lead all athiests to become starbucks liberal style not using phones because the cobalt uses slave labor or something, or say that consensual bestiality is fine as long as the animal enjoys it, and yet their "freely chosen" morality allows them to draw the line at the exact point that corporations and the government want them to! How weird is that?
>You seem like a very individualistic and socially maladjusted brat, what exactly draws you towards organized religion instead of more personal forms of mysticism
I didn't choose my religion any more than you chose yours

>>18465803
Ugh, oh my word. I came so fucking hard. I mean, really hard. I'm still sweating. I mean I sweat like a pig when I jack off, but I literally will be unable to stop sweating for hours when I fuck a woman. My prostate literally feels hollow I came so much. Holy fuck. I literally could feel how hard my load shot out. Mmmph, fuck yeah.

Anyway, OP, yeah. Of course. I'd figure that if a civilization follows it and continues on, then my genes will be passed on through the religion too.

>>18465894
>I don't resent living in society and most people don't and that's entirely the point.
I don't know, you seem to model atheists (or "moderns") being somehow bothered by the fact and that's a rather strange angle of attack. I assure you the idea that the people I idealize may have been products of their time and society is not exactly novel to me, we're on /his/ for fuck's sake.

>The categorical imperative could lead all atheists to become starbucks liberal style not using phones because the cobalt uses slave labor or something
Well, some certainly do, ethical veganism is another common trend. Such modern saints may be considered exemplary in our society but I tend to pity those who follow utilitarianism/consequentialism off a cliff, that sounds about as joyless and virulent as islamic fundamentalism.
>or say that consensual bestiality is fine as long as the animal enjoys it
I was never fond of moral defenses for bestiality (the aberration is the main appeal)
however, seeing animals in pain triggers my empathy while interspecies intercourse is otherwise only harmlessly grotesque, so it's an easy position to argue for people with my sort of wiring. Many humans aren't even so bothered by causing suffering to animals for fun in the first place.
At the very least, I think most atheist would find no moral issue with furries, whatever the stance of the local religion, authorities or credit card companies, or even their own opinion of furfags.

>>18465891
>Pagans don't exist anymore
Of course they do, did you spend your whole life in some anglo gated community? Hell, there are pagans in NYC or LA too, and I don't mean the LARPers.
There are 8 billion people outside of your bubble. Asians, Indians, Africans... Hispanics or Southern/Eastern Europeans also count in my reckoning for their popular "devotion" to "saints", little different from Haitian voodoo. Not to mention the primitives of all continents.

>>18465803
>no afterlife
There is obviously an afterlife.

>>18465803
>with the exception being that there is no afterlife
isn't that the point of all of the moralfagging of the bible?
Your question is internally inconsistent
Sure if I had proof god was real then I'd believe in him but if there was no punishment or reward I'd just keep to masturbating furiously

>>18466009
No. Most of the "moralfagging" in the Bible is Israel breaking its covenant with God. It was written for Second Temple Jews to read alongside the Torah to understand why the Babylonian Exile happened. The Torah provided the Laws and an early history, and the Prophets provided a commentary on how to fulfill it. Jesus is supposed to be the final prophet on how to bring about the Besorah promised in Isaiah.

>>18465867
Make up your mind, does it resemble christianity or does it resemble political convenience? Just don't think so hard you realize that you are just arguing that modern christianity is basically the worship of political convenience rather than christ and his actual teachings since that might destroy the argument you are trying to make.

>>18465891
>completely coincidentally
No, you clearly just don't understand the concept of evolution and still thinks it boils down to coincidences.

>>18465894
Sure, nobody that disagrees with governments and corporations are atheist, everyone knows that only theists attend protests.

>>18465828
>Not really, most of the Bible is about right action and how to live in society
Categorically false. The Bible is about how to make it into Heaven. The actions and morality required to make it to Heaven stand in utter contradiction to living in the world and society. This makes logical sense. Heaven is a realm not of this world. This is why the most pious Christians who are serious about making it to Heaven renounce the world and flee society to live as ascetics, to pursue God through poverty, prayer, fasting, and spiritual warfare. The desert hermits for example are among the most formative figures in the entire Christian tradition.

>>18466123
If God did not care about you doing the right thing in society, then why would the Law and the Prophets and Jesus Himself speak about loving your neighbor, upholding the commandments, and so many other things? If the world is passing away, then it's meaningless. You don't get it.

>>18466126
>to make it into Heaven

>>18465803
>inspired the bible
Including all the bits about foreskins?

>>18465803
I disagree morally with god anyway so this changes nothing

>>18465803
I mean. It depends what you mean by 'following it', I would not assent to following the levitical laws, if that's what you mean. And Jesus wasn't crystal clear with what he meant so you'd have to explain what this hypothetical's version of Jesus' teachings is.

>>18465803
>no afterlife
There is an afterlife. Stop making everything about you.

>>18465803
If faith is something that is gifted and cannot be artificially self-materialized by someone, what is the point of answering or even thinking about this scenario?

>>18466315
You still have to accept the nomenclature to join in the conversation.

>>18466315
My favourite thing is the Calvinist NPC dialogue tree on this.
>It's so that the unbeliever is left without excuse!
>So if you didn't use apologetics arguments that you saw on youtube against me, I would be without excuse?
>S-shut up...

>>18465803
If there is no reward or.punishment, then we would call God "it", and die.

>>18465803
The idea that something is divine, stems from the reward and punishment. Divinity requires the judgement of good and evil. Without the judement of good and evil, through reward and punishment, there is no divinity.

>>18465803
>all of the teachings in it were divine
The teachings in the book are not divine, they are inspired by divinity. A book is static and unchanging, like a corpse, or a tomb. Its a record of divinity, but it no longer makes judgements. The judgments are in the reading. The recitation. The Quran. Not, the book.

>>18465803
>all of the teachings in it were divine
In order for this to be true, the book would need to be making judgements with context. But that takes place in the interpretation, and the mind of the reader. The book is limited in what it says. So it cant capture the full range of divine judgements for every situation. It is a sign posts to.Jesus Christ, but it is not Jesus Christ.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

>>18465803
It wouldn't matter.

>>18466321
What conversation? In christianity, faith has a divine component that is not dependent on human effort.

>>18466352
>What conversation
I have other sheep that are not of this fold

Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

>>18466352
If its intentionally bad prophecy, intended to degenerate, then they will be like a dream when one awakes;

when you arise, Lord, you will despise them as fantasies.

If it is honest confusion, then bread crumbs are dropped for my homies.

>>18466321
>accept
Tolerate

>>18466315
>Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us

>>18466315
Also this stuff:
Romans 2:21
Proverbs 14:15
Mark 10:23
Matthew 7:16
Mark 13:37
Matthew 24:2
Matthew 16:19

>>18465803
If there was no hell then what's the point of a Messiah?

>>18466454
The Moshiach is supposed to bring about world peace and lead all the nations to the worship of the big Yah (-weh, not Netan-). Have you not read the Bible?

>>18466464
So that they can inherit the new world where there will be no war and lions will eat grass along with sheeps instead of the consuming fire.

>>18466472
Name the specific series of verses you're talking about.

>>18466484
Isaiah 11

And if Christian religion is wrong, and something else was true, how will you rescue the people?

>>18466539
Isaiah 11 says nothing about a consuming fire. In fact it supports my assertion that the Moshiach is meant to bring about world peace and make the nations worship Big Yah.

>>18466550
it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you

The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field

All the Law and the Prophets hang on two commandments. Love your neighbor as yourself.

You will know them by their fruit

>>18466567
Yes, I can also spew-pew verses like an AI, yet you didnt answer

>>18466362
>>18466372
Can you stop being a schizo and actually reply?

Why would I? The false promise/threat of heaven/torture was literally the only argument christcucks had, and you took this away.

>>18465803
>If God were real and He inspired the Bible, and Jesus were in fact the Messiah, and all of the teachings in it were divine, with the exception being that there is no afterlife, neither reward nor punishment, would you follow it?
That's a badly posed question. Even all that being true does not imply that I have good reasons to actually believe it's true.

>>18465828
>most of the Bible is about right action and how to live in society
That's the Judaism part, because Jews don't really have the same conception of heaven and hell as Christians and Muslims. I don't see how you can make the logic of the New Testament work without an afterlife.

>>18466900
Jews believe in the world to come.

>>18467039
They do, but it's basically a footnote that goes "oh yeah btw some shit happens after you day, anyway let's go back to being autistic over debating the 300 rules for how to make a bagel". Nowhere near comparable to the afterlife obsession of the other two.

>>18467045
There are rabbis I'm the talmud who having done an unforgivable sin have fasted themselves to death hoping that their suffering earns God's compassion and allows them to enter the world to come.

>>18466589
>Can you
Yes

>>18466586
>yet you didnt answer
I did

>>18467115
At the same time they also believe that anyone who follows Noah's 7 basic bitch laws gets the same premium afterlife package after death, and have no notion of "perpetual suffering" after death, punishment is either temporary or simply the complete destruction of the soul. Again, while they do have the afterlife as an element, they're vastly more concerned with bickering over minutia about this world.