I have been watching youtube Predictive History and one thing which stood out was his lecture on Paul. How feasible are his theories? 1. Wanted to establish a church to make him the leader of it and purposelly highjacked Jesus' message to do so2. Roman Spy to subvert the judaic Religion3. A double agent to elevate status of the pharisees in society and overtake RomeWhile I know Jiang has some off the cuff conclusions, from a third person view this seems plausible.
>>18469407Its on the right path but since is hasnt accepted jesus he is unable to see what paul really did. He didnt want to create a church, he wanted to misdirect christianity into a manageable religion. He was a jewish roman agent (they work together, i dont know why you guys think they're separate.) Sent to maintain the system that keeps jewish as priests and romans as noblemen... how is that any different from how it was in Egypt or Babylon?.
>>18469407Stop listening to this useless slop
>>18469436So in a round about way, he was trying 3 but working for bothat the same time. But then, if they were working together, why was he executed? Seems less malicious than Jiang framed it.NT Wright framed it as a genuine attempt to unite everyone under one religion for a better world, which I liked but naturally a bit bias. >>18469471Seemed a lot more logical than most youtube talking heads or news.
Paul likely suffered from Geschwind syndrome, which would explain his road conversion as epilepsy and account for his verbose and dense letters and his religious mania. Rome didn't give enough of a shit about the jews to send a double agent and Paul suffered way too much shit to be in it only for himself. >>18469541>Seemed a lot more logical than most youtube talking heads or news.Yikes.
>>18469610Yikes indeed. The Jiang fellow is blowing up though and after listening I can see why. Also fair point, I never thought of the fact Paul went through hell on his quest. Something not mentioned by Jiang. Thanks for grounding me again.
>>18469541>But then, if they were working together, why was he executed?Saul is the only """apostle""" to be guarded by romans... do you teally think things are how they say?I bet you think epstein killed himself too lol
>oh, brothers... i am being fed and guarded by roman soldiers all day. I know you guys also suffer a little bit but you should feel empathy for my great tribulations and send me some shekels ok. Also do as i say.
>>18469407>1. Wanted to establish a church to make him the leader of it and purposelly highjacked Jesus' message to do soThis one is the most believeable of the theories because even a slightly cynical reading of acts/epistles could lead you to this conclusion. It was Nietzsche's reading, for example. That Paul simply faked his visions and usurped the apostles is not hard to imagine. >2. Roman Spy to subvert the judaic ReligionYeah no. This makes no sense. It's true Paul was a Roman citizen, which meant he served in the army. But if the subversion of Judaism was his objective he couldn't have chosen a worse way of carrying out than coming out in support of fringe heresy. And his behaviour as one of the leaders of the Christian community also contradicts this: If he was trying to subvert the Jews, why center his ministry on the gentiles and attack judaizers? Why would he abandon his position as a respected pharisee and Jewish official to join a fringe heresy? Pure conspiraslop.>3. A double agent to elevate status of the pharisees in society and overtake RomeCan you elaborate on this one? I'm not familiar.P.S:Predictive History is run by a guy who is only a professor because he thought at a chines emiddle school in 2012. Also he's an ONG asset and probably spook. But that doesn't mean we can't adress his ideas.
>>18469663>3. A double agent to elevate status of the pharisees in society and overtake Rome>Can you elaborate on this one? I'm not familiar.Jiang says Paul wanted judaism to and Jews to be of higher more significant status across Rome and other cultures, so spread Christianity as a means to do so, which elevates Jews to a special status as Gods Chosen externally, not just among themselves.
>>18469663To elaborate, a Jewish double agent to help their status in society.>Also he's an ONG asset and probably spook.A what and what?
>>18469670Then I don't quite think this is likely for a number of reasons:1: While Christianity did bring the old testament and some aspects of pre-exilic Jewish culture to the gentiles, this did not directly benefit the Jews. As a distinct religion of Christianity the christians treated it with hostility, the elevation of the old testament did not entail an elevation of the Jews. Protestant philosemitism would only emerge in the 16th century, and it would still be rather anti-jewish.2: Judaism was a religio licita in the Roman empire, they were largely unmolested by the pagan Roman authorities, especially during the time of Paul, when the Pharisees were nothing but a bunch of backwards hicks squabbling with the Priests and the essenes. They didn't represent all Jews and they probably didn't want anything to do with Rome.3: The pharisees were conservatives that disliked the hellenizing currents of the sadducees (the priests of the Temple) and deeply disliked Rome and the Greeks. I suspect their objectives toward Rome were to convert it to Judaism (and I think you can see this in the Onkelos story, or even the Nero story, both in the Talmud), not to counterfait their acceptance by blasphemous means.
>>18469693To me, the Onkelos narrative in the Talmud is essentially Jewish fan-fiction about how the truth of Judaism will triumph over Roman weapon's and having Rome convert to Judaism. But this is a rabbinical era story. Not pharisaical.
>>18469674What I was trying to say was that he worked atseveral United States NGOs tied the U.S government and that he may have connections to the U.S intelligence community.
>>18469693Thank you for the detailed response. While Christianity was hostile to Jews, I believe it was similar to a publicity thing, again by Jiang's logic.For example.1. Christianity never comes to pass. Jews are only known or aware of their status to themselves while everyone else just sees them as outsiders with a weird religion.2. Christianity happens and spreads. Now, everyone is aware of the Jews, legends and religion,this elevating them. Even if this may result in initial hostility.Also Jiang mentions that the account of the Jews killing Jesus may have been Roman propaganda in the Bible to make them look good and there is no account of Jews purscuting their own like this. Is that true? >>18469699So you think he is some kind of agent / talking head to spread misinfo? I mean, his critiques of israel isthe most direct and I doubt any US related plant would do so.
>>18469693Christianity as created by paul has no problem with usury existing as long as they do not participate in it directly, meaning they can be slaves. Gospel of thomas jesus tells you to renounce money and material possessions.All this "jews were hated" bullshit is just repeating a dumb narrative you were taught, one that ends up supporting the holocaust. Truth is: jews have been the managers of the system for many "emperors" all through time... but in the last 2000 years, with the world being united into a common religious background, rhey have managed to bypass the emperor part and just control everything through control of resources and enforcement of their system (central banking to ensure their economic system).Do you really believe Mohammed believed all that bullshit?, do you think its all eerily similar to Judaism because of coincidence?. He, like saul, was an agent of the powers that have controlled the world for millenia.
>>18469701>1. Christianity never comes to pass. Jews are only known or aware of their status to themselves while everyone else just sees them as outsiders with a weird religion.See, the main belief in Christianity used to be that while Jews were God's chosen people once, they no longer are. And instead they had been cursed by their rejection and subsequent killing of Jesus at the cross. This is because of a variety of reasons. Christianity brought the Jews no glory. And regardless, who cares that they see Jews as outsides? All foreign religions are seen like that. Why would being seen as the murderer of God be better? Among the Pagans they could go out and convert, operate with a measure of freedom. Christian rule was harsher.
>>18469701>Is that true?No. Heretics were routinely executed for that crime.
>>18469407The purpose of Paul (however real he might've been) was to spread a working formulation of Christianity. This was neither pro-Roman nor pro-Jewish. If anything, it was to build momentum to undermine both authorities and sets of law.Why? Because it was converting people who felt marginalized from either side, giving them not just common purpose, but new convictions about hope, brotherhood, love, etc.
>>18469870Slaves, obey your masters
>>184694072 Peter 3:15-17 warns against listening to people that twist Paul's words aroundStating that the unstable and ignorant will try to do so
He, like most people who think Paul contradicts Jesus, doesn't know anything at all of substance about Christianity.
>>18469859That is a fair explanation. He also mentioned, kind of moving gently to geopolitics but still history, the Bible is being used as a weapon to manipulate Christians by modern Jews as they are the chosen. At least from US context, seems to be the case. How Jiang contextualised it is frightening. >>18469862I think it was more surrendering other Jews to the Romans.>>18469954That is true. He said original Christians had female leaders, and he used Thomas and Sermon of the Mount as a baseline of Jesus message.
>anon makes a thread talking to himself "disproving" "Paul is a psyop"Whewlad, is this any different from when you spend all weekend copypasting walls of text about what someone said? Lol, no wonder none of you know anything at all
>>18469879While people are speculating about Paul hijacking Christianity after Jesus died, you may as well also speculate about Paul's writings being hijacked after he died. Marcion had shorter versions of his letters early on, and that about half of the letters attributed to Paul are forgeries is a common scholarly opinion, and that even the writings considered to be authentic are interpolated in at least a few places is also common scholarly opinion. E.g. it's widely thought that the most misogynistic content in Paul is from later additions and that the early church had an impressive level of gender equality, and Marcion's church was known to have gender equality.So when Paul says things like, "There is no longer Jew or Greek; there is no longer slave or free; there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus," it may have originally had a stronger meaning that it seems to have now. After all, the broken wall between Jews and gentiles did mean that they were now equal in practice, so Jews like Paul didn't have to follow the Torah to be saved. And Marcion provides evidence that the broken wall between men and women was understood by some early Paulists to mean equality of roles within the church, so women could have authority and administer baptism the same as men.
>>18470107There are a couple places where Paul seems to have a negative attitude toward humans enslaving other humans, like:1 Corinthians 7:21;23 (depending on how it's translated, and imo the passage is a candidate for having been interpolated to obscure it's original meaning)"If a slave when called, do not accustom yourself to it; rather, if you can indeed become free, make the most of it... You were purchased at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."2 Corinthians 11:20 "For you put up with it when someone makes slaves of you or preys upon you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or gives you a slap in the face. To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that!" (heavy sarcasm).There's also the whole letter to Philemon, where it really does look at least to me like Paul is implying that he wants Philemon to release Onesimus from slavery as part of fully accepting him as a brother in Christ.https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/328/is-paul-suggesting-that-philemon-release-onesimus-from-slavery
>>18470107>you may as well also speculate about Paul's writings being hijacked after he died.No point in doing thatJesus is the way, he said so himself. Paul and anyone who tries to put himself in that place is false. Thats it. I'm not here to argue with you, just to prove how dumb and retarded your thread and arguments are.
>play my stupid games and waste your time arguing pointless bullshit with meYikes, no wonder you spend all your life on false things, you're empty inside out
>>18470133>>18470135It isn't my thread, though I do like talking about early Christianity and have a few strong opinions around it.
>>18470144Thanks for responding, it has been reassuring.>>18470133Why the hostility? Though I wish there were thread IDs so confusion like this doesn't happen. Plus I thought it was a genuinely interesting subject, as Jiang has quite a following abd though his geopolitical opinions seem apt, his religious ones seem very damning and I wanted clarity from others like you and the anons here.
Re: Slavery, it's an interesting fact that one of the few Christian writings that looks like it might be a denouncement of slavery, the Acts of Thomas 83, is also apparently subject to considerable manuscript variation, maybe implying that whatever was there originally was seen as problematic by a lot of the copiers.http://www.gnosis.org/library/actthom.htmThe short of it is that Thomas sees a rich woman being carried by slaves to see him preach, and he says:"ye desire to be near me but are far off, as it was said of the multitude that came unto the Lord: Having eyes ye see not, and having ears ye hear not; and he said to the multitudes: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear; and: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."And he says to the slaves carrying the woman,"This blessing and this admonition which was promised unto them is for you that are heavily burdened now. Ye are they that carry burdens grievous to be borne, and are borne about by her command. And though ye are men, they lay on you loads as on brute beasts, for they that have authority over you think that ye are not men such as themselves, whether bond or free. [. . .] But this commandment have we received of the Lord, that that which pleaseth not us when it is done by another this we should not do to any other man.
>>18469989Yeah but that movement post-dates Paul and the apostolic age by more than a thousand years. And is mostly tied to much more recent developments in the history of Christianity. But Christianity does have a very particular relationship with Judaism it just doesn't with any other religion, which imo may just be why their relationship is so... nuanced.>I think it was more surrendering other Jews to the Romans.I don't know about that but I doubt it because by the time of the crucifixion the Romanempire had taken over administrative functions, they wer ethe law at that point. Plus, it was in the Sadducees best interest to co-operate.>>18470093Your name is very fitting.>>18470107I mean, the thing about Mary Magdelene being front and center during the sermon of the mount could be evidence of that. Many people take it as such, for example.But yeah, it's completely possible for Paul to have been hijacked himself. I myself think that the modern bible (and by extension modern orthodoxy) was orignally an uneasy compromise between a few relatively moderate communities that where less divergent between eachother than to everyone else (the proto-orthodoxy), which then coalesced more and more into a real orthodoxy excluding the various christological dissidents as they went.
>>18470265>the thing about Mary Magdelene being front and center during the sermon of the mountWhat is this a reference to? I'm not aware of any connnection between the two.
>>18469610>Paul likely suffered from Geschwind syndromeNah, it's called enlightenment. Christians call it sainthood, but it's actually the salvation, everlasting life, and "kingdom of god" that Christ constantly referred to. Orthodox chads call it theosis.The catholic and orthodox churches find it convenient to tell laypeople the heaven and hell story, but if you go into the better contemplative orders you get the esoteric straight dope.
>>18470290Whoops. Got my Mary's wrong. And my sermon's wrong. I meant, Mary of Bethany, in the episode about the her and Martha in the house. I think.
>>18469407He is the new Jordan Peterson, where he states the obvious in a sophisticated manner. It's appealing because there are no role models for young men, so even the most basic stuff is latched onto.
>>18470436I think comparing to JP is a bit of a stretch. What you said is right, but JP focused on philosophy and self improvement. Filled the gap for countless young men with no fathers/bad father figures. Jiang is about geopolitics and some history. Slightly different crowd.
