Does Marx himself have an explanation for why his theories now have the most purchase among middle class students, and practically zero support among actual proletarians?
>>18477920Marxism and Christianity are similar in the sense that an initial "founder" gave a "pure" version of it but due to it being extremely hyper-specific, their believers had to modify it and revision it to the point that it lost all meaning and in extension lost all credentials.
>>18477920Marx actually disliked proles, unions and such; he was of the opinion that intellectuals such as himself would lead the revolution, something which Lenin then formalized with his idea of a vanguard. He also thought it wasn't really a matter of making people understand theories, but just the inevitable outcome of history, like you're adding more and more weight to one side of a scale until it eventually tips over.
>>18477920Because proletarians were retardified with trash tv, reality shows, sport, porn, sugary slop and so on
This comic is true btw. I always felt uneasy around the working class and their extroverted macho attitude.
>>18477997What's funny is that the "working class" guy in the pic probably has a higher income that the commie. Being "working class" in the US is a vibe.
>>18478007Working class is anyone whos forced to sell his labor becuade hes excluded from owning the means of production Retard
>>18477997Supporting the working class doesn't mean supporting whatever views are held by certain members of the working class, specially when such views are against the interests of the working class, you stupid pos.
>>18478014A guy making 6 figures in an oil rig in North Dakota is not "excluded from owning the means of production" and he can make more money than someone who owns a bakery or a computer, which are actual means of production. He's also not "forced" to sell his labor and could easily transition away to do something else. He's opting to do it because it's advantageous.
>>18478019I don't mean their views retard, I literally don't like their presence, generally speaking. The raunchy jokes, toxic masculinity and everything
>>18478019>>18478035Strange you would choose to support an entire class of people you don't like and who don't like you. It's like being a black white supremacist. Or a philosemitic goy.
>>18478035>being an unironic faggot sjw>>18478042You've been brainwashed by right-wingers into believing that the working class is a monolithic entity made of racists who love their boss and hate leftism.
>>18477920Maybe cause during the time of Marx 90% of working class were fucking illiterates?
>>18478067Not 'a monolithic entity made of racists who love their boss and hate leftism', but definitely a group with little love for marxist ideas and who mostly votes conservatively. Marxism chugs on entirely through the efforts of student groups who aren't even proletarian, and who also don't actually do anything productive
>>18478021>excluded from owning the means of productionIts not as easy as buying something and putting your companyTheres certification, fees, loans, etcYou can make a 7 figure income... but what is the point of that when the cost of living is 8 figures?Thats entirely the point... you may make 7 figures now but if you stop selling youe time then you lose everything
>>18478042Communism is about self-interest (not wanting to be a wageslave), not about irrationally loving Jimbob who bullied you in school and now works as an electrician (and earns more than you do)
>>18477920>>18477965Lenin sort of talks about it like this (i believe in "What is to be Done?":It can be fairly intuitive for a person in a workplace to figure out on their own, no education needed, that they would be more powerful bargaining with employers collectively instead of individually. From there, it's intuitive and not unreasonable that people would come to a similar conclusion to connect and bargain across an industry. From there, it's natural and intuitive for them to see utility in working with unions from other industries to secure political reforms regionally or nationally to benefit workers. But for them to see the yet bigger picture of the system they are working in and it's context, and theorize the necessity for the sake of workers to do the hardest and grimmest task of overthrowing capitalism is kind of a stretch. If they win an 8 hour work day, pensions, benefits, etc, and do this nationally they might not think about or care about the fact that this will be undone by the capitalists if it takes them decades because the state is ultimately theirs, not the workers, the workers left the state lying there to be used against them even if it's the next generations problem. That's kind of the story of the decline of life in the USA, they didn't come up with marxism leninism on a napkin in the breakroom and now the new deal is cooked and they are approaching being back to square one, or worse. The role of the party is partially to spare the workers the need to come up with this stuff themselves, it's all figured out already and the nerds who bothered to read it can get them caught up in no time.
>>18477920>practically zero support among actual proletarians?Mainly due to co stnsmt anti-labour and anti-lsbour organizing propaganda. There are guys who barely passex high school who think they can get a raise with a firm handshake, or are so delusional they working themselves into early muscoskeletal problems will innately lead to wage increases.
>>18477920Marx himself was a bougie NEET who lived on Engel's couch
>>18478724Karl Marx was a rent boy?
>>18478094>proletarianDo you think every proletarian is a rigger wigger on a South Dakota oil field? Physicians and lawyers are proletarians as well, even when they have a practice the act of being a doctor or lawyer itself involves selling your labor time for value provided by patients/insurance. You can literally see Marx's decreasing rate of profit in real time with decreasing insurance reimbursements every year in American medicine
>>18478707>they working themselves into early muscoskeletal problems will innately lead to wage increases.This is what the guy who keeps talking about the hypothetical multimillionaire electrician thinks kekIt takes 4-5 yrs to become a licensed electrician btw, that's basically the same amount of time as going to college straight from high school until you start earning less than poverty wages (if you even get accepted out of HS in the first place and then get into a union job) and destroying your body in the processSo many tradies have their bodies broken by their 60s
>>18477920A proletarian in Marxist thought is literally fucking everybody who has no control over the means of production, and last time i checked broke middle class students do not own factories or land
>>18478737do you think workers in the Soviet Union didn't do backbreaking labor and lived in miserable dirt shit poor conditions with rationed food?
>>18477920Isn't that basically the core idea of the Marxist concept of the "false consciousness," OP?
>>18478961>do you think workers in the Soviet Union didn't do backbreaking labor and lived in miserable dirt shit poor conditions with rationed food?The USSR wasn't actual communism anyway, which was supposed to be stateless.
>>18478707it would be in their personal interest to abolish all law and order and give 21st century tranny cheka unrestricted power to kill and torture whoever they want in the name of the revolution. this follows from the hegelian subulation of the state.
>>18478961xey had hegelian-marxist science to cure them with dialectics until cia color revolutioned xem comrade
>>18478961Manual labor is manual labor and takes a physical toll on you no matter what, no Ivory Tower political theories can make it otherwise. Under capitalism however you might make a decent living for sacrificing your body and have adequate food and medical care for any physical injuries you take on the job. Under communism your reward for a job well done is a fucking Lenin medal. As for medical care, sorry we have no knee replacements due to Trotskyite/CIA sabotage, comrade.
>>18477920>Marxhe wrote what the Illuminati (then in hiding) told him to write. Weishaupt talked about a "Kingdom of the Just" and Marx was a member of the "League of the Just".
>>18478969the ironing where this thread is discussed is that average Ivan in Soviet Union was the most loyal supporter of the system while dissidents were all elite intelligensia who never got their hands dirty. it's the inversion of capitalist countries where the intelligensia all fantasized about gommunist utopias when the working class did not.
>>18477920No, Marx's theories outline the general battlefield and tug or war of power that is "now hidden and now open" between the wage workers and the owner. If we imagine a word where Marx didn't engage in politics, this law still holds true as long as there are wage workers and bosses.
>>18477920it was designed that way.student infrastructure ensures that they are only active for like 4 years, and then a new group moves in that has to start all over.all the infrastructure for working adults has been removed decades ago.
>>18477920my family lives in a trailer and cant get medical help because of the draconian american healthcare system and I fully believe in what Marx wrote, but I also understand it is all a pipe dream that will never become a reality because late stage capitalism has shepherded the masses into eternal laziness. I think a lot of people are like me and decide to not follow through with participating in politics or trying to change anything because we understand it is hopeless in modern society. The only people who get to try are the middle class who have the time and privilege to not be working to survive 24/7
>>18479487Marx never wrote a word lmao, you done got tricked
>>18479493based see >>18479006
>>18479487>The only people who get to try are the middle class who have the time and privilege to not be working to survive 24/7And this is the lesson of all revolutions. The French and Russian revolutions were led by lawyers, doctors, and clerks who then were able to bring like-minded soldiers, factory workers, and peasants to bear against the monstrous stateI'm sorry to hear about your family's plight
>>18479487>woe is mehas nothing to do with anything. everything you believe is wrong and marx was wrong about everything as are all communists. your own pity party story doesn't change that.facts don't care about your feelings.
>>18478732>Physicians and lawyers are proletarians as well,They're not, they are workers, but not proletarian. Marx didn't consider all working class people to be equal and natural allies.Those are labor aristocrats who will always support capitalism, because they are workers who are not actually suffering from exploitation, since they can use their ability to perform highly skilled labor as leverage. In fact they often benefit from capitalism and can easily jump from worker to business owner if they save some money.Proletarians specifically are the wage slaves who are barely making ends meet.In Marx's time, they were working 18 hours a day and still going hungry, that's who he was telling to unite and overthrow their masters. That doesn't exist anymore, and it would be fucking retarded to tell a doctor to organize and overthrow the state while he makes 3 figures.
It is real in the latin american working class.I don't think it works for the consumption dependant economies of the west.
>>18479788Is it? I'm from Brazil and the most I see are Lula supporters, and he's just a social democrat, if even that. Other than that there's trotskyst student groups, all they do is make and plaster posters around, sell newspapers and smoke weed in the break room. Most working class people who are not lula supporters are pentacostals who think Bolsonaro will bring about the second coming of Jesus
>>18479487there's more you can do in life than vote. Everything you do consume protest against is political. The way propaganda works is by restraining your apparent options.I realized it when I saw how it weaponized cowardice.You often see people asking why a drone operator would murder someone pleading for his life in 4k and then zooming in to delect on the vestiges of his cruelty. the general answers are something like>this is how war is>It's hard to take prisoners with a drone>not wanting to die is not akin to surrendering>we can't affort to let them leave>yadda yaddathese all seem sound rationalist arguments. But at the end of the day you can do the hardest thing and stand up and just say stop.This is my definition of courage, it's about standing up for what you believe in and revolt, and revolt is not synonymous with protesting in the streets with a sign, it just means "stop"
>>18479867You are this mad, tranny.
>>18479867you lefties always make him sound way more based than he actually is
>>18478021>heres why White working class people arent working classholy fuck the seethe, anything to deny White people are the most productive and most oppressed in American society.>but you rise above the oppression so youre not really oppressed.Yeah, White people are amazing.Theyre still by far the definition of a proletariat, a revolutionary proletariat given the liberal anti-White racism of the bourgeois.>he isnt forced because he could do anythingyeah anyone can anything, still forced to work, a South Dakotan working on an oil rig IS forced to sell his labor, NO he can not afford to buy into the highly regulated big oil bureacracy.Whites are working classanti-White is anti-Communist.
>>18479792He is probably a USPian that's inside his humanities and MST social movement bubble to even say something clueless like that.Last time I saw anything marginally not center and center left in Brazil was the Correnteza larping as soviets in their occupations. God that made me feel so dissapointed. And I have to study with people like that and pretend they have brains.I firmly believe the lower and middle class will eventually start eating up communism through the internet the same way they do with far-right slop and we are going to have the stupidest civil war on History.
>>18477965>The current system is bad and should be abolished>My version of the system all about justice and equality and bettering the life of the poor>Oh and me and my friends should have unlimited power, wealth and prestige in this new system. And if the poor don't like it we'll just toture them and murder their whole families lolThis whole ideology is just about losers wanting to gain power and take revenge on other people whose only crime was being better people than said losers
>>18478019Well that doesn't really work when modern leftists believe that not sharing their views automatically makes you unforgivably and intolerably evil. Commies effectively believe that 99% of American blue collar workers deserve to die, and they don't do a very good job at hiding their genuine contempt.And the simple fact remains, it's nonsensical to center your political identity around fighting for the working class when you despise most of them. You may as well start advocating Aristocracy and Monarchy ATP, since you already the believe the proles are inferiors in need of guidance by their betters.
>>18477997>extends left handI'm with the commie on this one
>>18478272>be working class>win an 8 hour work day, pensions, benefits, etc>now some greaseball is telling me to kill and oppress people nah I don't think that that's in my interest
>>18480055This right here. >>18478272 was mentioning how short-term benefits (powerful unions, 8-hour work day etc) can be and has been outdone in the long term by capitalist economies. Said long term is on the order of a human lifetime (the death of the last strong political and union leaders), and it had been a human lifetime since the major strikes of the mid-20th century, so we see the predictable unravelling of those rights now. Of course, now they’ve made it even harder to form unions and organize strikes so the temporary solution Lenin outlines is no longer even feasible. Just look at the “protests” in the USA: glorified dance parades. A decade of corpos manipulating pride and pride parades has completely destroyed the meaning of a protest in the US. Now, you have to:>protest only in a specific part of your city/town>only wear certain items and bring only certain pieces of equipment>don’t be too loud or disruptive>start and leave protests by the end of your allotted timeor else your protest is “illegal” and you are creating a mob to riot. The manipulation of Pride, ironically, has made any genuine protest by any group of working class people meaningless, as you are expected to simply show up with banners and stand in your allotted space for an allotted time to be an annoyance to everyone else. This is useless, so most people simply vote and hope for the best. The alternative is to spread class consciousness across the working class and organize disruptive strikes and boycotts and shadow unions, but it’ll take food shortages to reach that stage.
>>18478019>I'M FOR THE WORKING CLASS>EVEN THOUGH I HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS AND VIEW THEM AS SUBHUMANS>I KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, AND IF THEY DISAGREE I'LL HAVE THEM IMPRISONED OR KILLED>BUT I'M FOR THEM... SOMEHOW
>>18477920He would say that most of the modern Proletariat are Petite Bourgeoisie and Lumpenproletariat.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisiehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LumpenproletariatMiddle class students see themselves as more representative of the proletariat than the Proletariat itself because of Lenin's Vanguardism.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguardism
>>18480114>Middle class students see themselves as more representative of the Lumpenproletariat than the Lumpenproletariat itself because of Lenin's VanguardismFix'd.>In Capital (1867), Marx claimed that legislation turned soldiers and peasants "en masse into beggars, robbers, vagabonds, partly from inclination, in most cases from stress of circumstances." By this, he deviated from his focus on the vicious and degenerate behavior of the lumpenproletariat in his writings on France. Instead, he described the lumpenproletariat as part of what he called an "industrial reserve army", which capitalists used as required. Thus, "vagabonds, criminals, prostitutes" and other lumpenproletariat formed an element within the "surplus population" in a capitalist system>The New Left was a broad political movement that emerged from the counterculture of the 1960s and continued through the 1970s. It consisted of activists in the Western world who, in reaction to the era's liberal establishment, campaigned for freer lifestyles on a broad range of social issues such as feminism, gay rights, drug policy reforms, and gender relations. The New Left differs from the traditional left in that it tended to acknowledge the struggle for various forms of social justice, whereas previous movements prioritized explicitly economic goals. However, many have used the term "New Left" to describe an evolution, continuation, and revitalization of traditional leftist goals
>>18480103>I support medical treatment for everyone sick>Yeah but what if they're an evil rapist then???>That is wrong>Omg so akshually you just lied you just want to kill right wingers and rape autistic boys with the big vaxx!!!!
>>18479992>Losers>WinnersOk mister donald j trump can you go back to work now
>>18479961>I firmly believe the lower and middle class will eventually start eating up communism through the internet the same way they do with far-right slop and we are going to have the stupidest civil war on History.It won't because that shit only exists in leftist university bubbles, like you said. When they graduate, they either grow out of it or they just become hardcore Lula supporters, if they weren't already. Commies are not organized enough to make effective propaganda, and they don't have the kind of money behind them that rightoid propaganda does.
>>18477920Because the bourgeoisie realized how dangerous his philosophy is so they recruperated it, starting in the late 19th century already through "social democracy" to reach a synthesis between Marxist radicalism and bourgeoisie conservatism. Essentially, making a few economic concessions while the bourgies stay firmly in power and can even extend their economic powerbase through new, bloated bureaucracies that administer this nu-marxism. This wasnt enough however which is why starting in the middle 20th century the academic "Bildungsbürgertum" started to inject feminism, faggotry, turd worldism and other such social degeneracies into "leftism", to further reduce its revolutionary potency. Something you will notice is that all these high tier "Green" or "Social democrat" cadres advocating for infinity immigration from shitholes and faggot or tranny shit never actually live these perverse ideals themselves. They are all land owning bourgies living in big houses in rich bourgie neighborhoods and white families and conservative bourgeoisie values, exactly the people Marxism wants to overthrow. The breeding ground of Antifa arent the apartments of working people, but the lavish suburb homes of the middle class. As for why proles dont support it: there isnt really a "proletariat" anymore since all the production was shipped overseas and what does remain is heavily unionized, these "working men" profit of capitalism, or at least they are content with the scraps they are left.
>>18480138What in the absolute fuck are you schizobabbling about, holy shit.
>>18480103I don't hate the working class or view workers as subhumans. Again, as I've explained in the very post you're replying to: supporting the working class does not mean supporting any bootlicking subhuman the likes of you who happen to be workers. And last but not least: your bootlicking kind is not representative of the working class.
>>18480269You're the one making non sequiturs you fuckface fucking faggot I oughta murder you
>>18480149They had money in the 70s when the USSR funded them but not these days.
>>18480300>I represent the working class because I went to college and learned about marxism>You don't represent the working class because you literally work every day of your lifeL.M.F.A.O.Communists would be really funny if they weren't so dangerous. Dangerously retarded.>>18480388Seethe, retard.
>>18478019The point of the comic is that the commie appoints himself as the champion of the working class but openly despises the working class to their core. The commie is simply out for power for himself and is using helping the working class as a more pleasant window dressing. If someone openly hates a group of people like this, then they obviously will never actually help them out in anyway. This is especially true when someone has a "help them for their own good" mentality
>>18480455I never said I represent the working class, retard or anything about college. I said bootlickers like you don't represent it. Also, working does not preclude you from being an idiot who worships his capitalist overlords, that's... the whole point of what I'm saying.
>>18480468Colleges are absolutely full of weak, limp-wristed marxist faggots who are exactly as I'm describing. How do I know? Because I went, fucking kek. It's exactly like that stonetoss comic from earlier. Little bitch ass faggots who are weak and cowardly as shit and subscribe to marxism, mocking the actual working class, calling them "flyovers", "chuds", "rethuglicans", "MAGAts" or whatever else. Looking down on them and insulting them whilst importing tons of third world labor to flood the market, lower their wages, and edge them out of their jobs. This is how all marxists are. God I can't even adequately express in words how much I utterly despise these retarded freaks.
>>18480484It's ok, dude, you can retake that course next semester.
>>18480490I have my master's already, little guy.
>>18477920There is no "proletariat" in the west. Unless you mean some obese retard MIGA truck driver or tranny barrista
>>18480516>tranny baristaWe call those the "prolapsetariat".
>>18478067Not loving him, but liking the fact he gives a sense of purpose and speeds up things, human beings hate when they are against schedule and some twats in the team start arguing about things which should be solved in 3 seconds by a proper hierarchy or are not worth discussing, you can't imagine how many hours of life I have lost to these self-entitled idiots who in the end aren't even going to move a single finger to get the job done.
>>18478732>Physicians and lawyers are proletarians as wellSo we just make it clear, once the mafias you join up with to push your "revolution" see you are no longer needed they will kill you in a very amusing way and rewrite about how you were a traitor to the cause.
>>18478969>The USSR wasn't actual communism anywayRight>we didn't need industrialization anyway>demographic decline is actually goodEvery single fucking time.
>>18479487And you want the state to fuck over anyone who is slightly better off than you so people like you can get gibs.How about you recognize you and your family never had the balls or brain to get up?
>>18479863What, mobiks? They are thugs, you shoot them, they die, you live, how hard is that for you to understand? Why there is war? Russians can walk away from Dombas whenever they want, until then thy get what they deserve, you are just a snake trying to sweet talk others so you can get power and money.
>>18480129I can respect working class types wanting some extra cash because life is getting so expensive, people who see themselves represented as that pic of 2 junkie fags can go kill themselves, a state should never fund one's manias.
>>18480300You just want to turn them in whatever academic sketch you think they should be, you won't stop at the actual essential things suh as alphabetization and civil behavior, you wanted turned into the mockerie of humanity typified by individuals living in areas where you endup running the show.
>>18479487If you live in a trailer then it's almost assuredly your own fault. You and your family probably spend all your time sitting in front of the tv, smoking cigarettes and drinking beer, while picking fleas and bedbugs off your ankles, with some rusted car parts on your lawn.
>>18478724>he never read the communist manifesto
>>18480100the next generation will achieve the same thing the same way without killing and oppressing peoplecome to think of it, maybe your agenda isn't about the working class (which you despise) but ratherabout killing and oppressing people
>>18480576that's true, russians can just walk away, but they are too cowardly to do so, it's easier to die for them than to object to injusticethat's to say how strong propaganda is
>>18479779>>18480562>>18480598Kek as soon as right wingers hear of a poor (probably white) person espousing left wing views they start going rabid
>>18478021this is exactly why trying to apply marxism to the 21st century is fucking retarded. some fag in silicon valley making 300k a year and then retiring as a millionaire when he's 50 years old is considered oppressed by someone running a small business barely making ends meet.
