>>18478089
Why should I care about le economic surplus when the cultural bourgeoisie (leftist anti-white overlords) is stealing my cultural surplus (national identity)? The real oppressed proletariat these days is white people.

>>18478089
Anyone who has to sell their labor to survive. Yes that means a CEO on a seven figure salary is working class.

>>18478106
Doesnt that make the entire "working class" category completely redundant? It's basically 99.5% of the population. The supposed category that socialist ideologies says are oppressed.

>>18478106
>>18478111
It means that streamers are working class. It also means that a small-town blue-collar worker has more "class solidarity" with an HR employee at a tech company than with his local business owner.
The massive rise of tech and white-collar jobs in general has thrown a wrench into the original definition which solely revolves around ownership and income. This is why producerism is more correct.

>>18478111
Marx thought only the most exploited of the workers were truly oppressed and had revolutionary potential. He called those "proletarians". Labor aristocracy (lawyers, doctors, etc), according to marxists, will always side with the bourgeoisie, because they benefit from doing so.
Which is incredibly funny in retrospect, since proletarians give zero shits about marx now and vote republican, while most marxists are young middle class people with loaded white collar parents.

>>18478119
To my knowledge a proleterian was someone who did not own any property.
Marx wrote his theories from a late 1800-lens where poor peasants were flocking to the cities for work, they lived in squalor, worked iwith their bodies for 18 hours per day for pennys and had no legal protection, thus they could never advance the social ladder, always be poor and hungry, and were always going to face a miserable ending as the years passed.

This isnt appliable anymore on the modern world. A carpenter or an industrial worker can have a higher salary than an entrepreneur or a landlord, and you are perfectly capable of moving around the social ladder since education is largely equal.

I am arguing from a European perspective btw. I assume you're American since you mentioned Republican party.

>>18478119
What a coincidence. Marx was a coddled white collar middle class goober terrified of working. Except he gets bonus points for having the subversive "tikkun olam" worldview instilled in him by his Rabbi father. Time to heal the world of needing to work. Surely this won't result in untold millions of deaths and misery.

>>18478119
>>18478230
If I had a nickel everytime someone made an ad hominem in a marx thread I wouldn't need the engels neetbuxx to write the 21st century's kapital

>Democrats are the real racists!
>Marxists are the real bourgeoisie!
and no argument was given

>>18478259
It's not an ad hominem, he didn't say that Marx was wrong because he was a bum, he said that Marx being a bum was no surprise given his arguments.

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>>18478089
Same thing as back then. People who earn their living by creating something of value, as opposed to hiring other people to work and then siphoning the fruits of their labour for yourself.

>>18478089
You do realize some of us still work man jobs like construction right?

We’re not all 4chan incel neets

>>18478259
Well if you are going to discuss the man and his ideology named for him. How else can you describe what he dreamed up and what it resulted in (thus far).
I know the perfect socialism hasn't been tried yet, and it'll work next time with you in charge especially.

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>>18478119
>Labor aristocracy (lawyers, doctors, etc), according to marxists, will always side with the bourgeoisie, because they benefit from doing so.
I think you're referring to the "petit bourgeoisie" (which includes independent professionals), but they won't always side with the bourgeoisie, but it's an intermediate class that can go either way. Also I think Marxists used to refer to a "labor aristocracy" to refer to a narrow strata of highly-skilled workers and corrupt union bigwigs, especially the union bigwigs. (At least historically this was the case, there's a garbage pile of communists on the internet who make all kinds of crazy, sweeping generalizations using these terms, usually out of context and divorced from their historical meaning as communists would've used them in the 1950s.)

Financialisation is an illness on the west.
Imagine spending half of your GDP on defence and being beaten by countries using Ak47's or flying lawnmowers.

>>18478274
Isnt to be an entrepreneur and create a business to create something of value?
Why must a completely different social category exist just because you work for your own income?
Again what's the point of the whole "working class" category when it basically is just a synonym for anyone employed, and it doesnt really take into consideration whether you're a plummer or a carpenter or a industrial worker who makes 4000 euros per month or if you're a dishwasher who makes 1500 euros per month. The term just serves no purpose other than driving a wedge between those who own a business and those who dont.

>>18478271
neither of these people are marxists

>>18478182
this. communism makes so much more sense when you realize that when marx was writing the government had not yet made and concessions and people genuinely owned nothing. in such a historical context, the spectre of communism was very strong and if things remained the same a revolution was inevitable

also marx makes a distinction between productive and unproductive labor. capital pertains to a hyperspecific relation in the production of commodities

>>18478089
Those who sell their labor to survive and those who don't.
However, Marx distinguished between labor aristocrats, lumpenproles, proles, peasants, landed gentry, petite bourgeoisie and finally the bourgeoisie.
If you want to see how he actually uses them rather than reading retarded slop on /his/ read the 18th Brumaire.

>>18478111
>It's basically 99.5% of the population
Not really, there's a lot of other classes, and each of them more or less have different long terms perspectives and interests. A labor aristocrat will not have the same immediate interest as the lumpenproles do, nor will they have the same long-term interests that the petite bourgeoisie has.

>>18478182
>A carpenter or an industrial worker can have a higher salary than an entrepreneur or a landlord
I'm european too (France) and there's no way that a carpenter or industrial worker can make more than an entrepreneur or landlord, unless you're talking about the petit-bourgeoisie (i.e. entrepreneur is just a dude with a shop with little capital to himself)

>>18478349
Because there's a qualitative difference between someone making money through the stock market by exchanging capital that he inherited and a "business owner" who's just a guy selling good he made by himself.
It essentially boils down to who actually benefits from keeping the system in its current form and who has an interest to change it.

>>18478182
Yeah, proles have no incentive to revolt anymore. People keep bringing up how unfair capitalism is, but so unfair you'd risk your own life fighting the state? So unfair you'd have thousands of people killed for a slightly better salary and lower unemployment? Ridiculous. The revolution is never coming. Although people like to larp as revolutionaries I guess.

>>18478099
>The real oppressed proletariat these days is white people.
White people don't work so they aren't proles. They prefer importing a billion mexicans to do all the actual productive work like agriculture and construction while they sit in board meetings playing with charts and crayons.

>>18478538
calm down hasan

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>>18478089
Me

>>18478541
You were supposed to say "that's not true".

>>18478551
because it's obviously not true

>>18478089
If you're working but aren't gaining ground economically, you're working class.

If you're working, and this is enough for you to buy into the 'commonwealth' (you own more and more things of real value) you're middle class.

If you're not working, if your income comes from owning enough of the 'commonwealth', you're upper class.

>>18478525
>there's no way that a carpenter or industrial worker can make more than an entrepreneur or landlord
Yes they can.
You can try and dance your way around it with all your invented terms "petite bourgeoisie" and whatnot but in the end it's just cope because reality contradicts your perceptions but you still want to hold on to your views. It's just dumb really. Carpenters and plummers make good fucking money.

>he inherited and a "business owner"
Sounds like your main beef is with people who inherit their money. You're practically just seething over a 0.5% demographic that isnt really that big of a deal because it shouldnt affect "the working class".

>and a "business owner" who's just a guy selling good he made by himself.
Lol the post I quoted said that anyone who isnt working class just siphon the fruits of others labour for themselves. Basically any businessowner.
Now you try to move the goalpost and say "well actually business owners can also be working class". Like make up your fucking mind.
And no, business owners dont always sell things they've made themselves. They have however created their business themselves so it's their creation agreed? Why should this person be a seperate category from 99.5% of the population just because hes not taking wages for his business? What's the point?

>It essentially boils down to who actually benefits from keeping the system in its current form and who has an interest to change it.
It honestly sounds like you dont even know what you're talking about, it's just a "trust me bro" kinda sentence.
Literally everyone benefits from the system because the system in my country and yours has made the road to become a comfortable middle-class extremely accessible and viable.

>>18478549
How many hours are you working this week?

>>18478271
>100k makes one the real bourgeoisie!

>>18478089
wages.

there are people that set wages, and people who receive wages. these two people will always be in conflict, and it's usually the wage earners who don't realize it.

>>18479223
So CEOs are indeed working class, got it.

>>18478099
>stealing my cultural surplus
If you are an American you need to kill yourself now.

>>18478538
ONLY White people work and historically speaking Whites are the sole proletariat.
>uhhh Mexicans pick fruit
Marx has a term for this, the reserve army of labor. It’s where cheaper labor is brought in by big capital to oust the proletariat of a given area to undercut their wages by replacing them.
Do White people not count anymore specifically because big capital has been this far successful in wielding the reserve army of labor?
Are you even a communist?
White people consistently have been against the great replacement but shitlibs and kikes have been for it to punish the working class. English communists even posited that the importation of non-Whites to England was a punitive measure by the elites to get back at working class Anglos who were protesting working conditions in the post war era.

Sorry but White people ARE the proletariat as they are the most productive race BY FAR.
Asia didn’t invent the engine, nor did they produce them without stealing the idea from Whites.

>>18478298
>Ideology
>Dreamed up
Maybe you could try reading the book?

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>>18478089
working class more like twerking ass

>white people are the REAL parking class!1!1!
So you'll advocate for them instead of sucking off richfags?
>lolno that's communism o algo now go pull yourself by the bootstraps

>>18478769
>Yes they can.
Maybe in a hypothetical scenario but on average not really (picrel)

>You're practically just seething over a 0.5% demographic that isnt really that big of a deal because it shouldnt affect "the working class".
>he thinks the bourgeoisie doesn't employ the vast majority of the population alongside having the most investment in politics
yikes, time to get back to reality bud

>Like make up your fucking mind
Why are you seething so much lol ?

>businessowner rant
This just boils down to you thinking that these are moral categories, and that being a businessowner is "bad" whilst being a working class is "good".
This is not the case. Marx uses his typology of classes in relation to which interest do they have. There's no definite line where one would rather keep the system as it is today than overcome it and replace it with something different. The lines especially blur around the intermediate class like small business owners, labor aristocrats, lumpen etc. You need to think of these classes as a way to structure who might have an interest in what.

>Why should this person be a seperate category from 99.5% of the population just because hes not taking wages for his business?
Why do you keep flinging this 0.5% figure ? The financial bourgeoisie, the ones making millions of wall streets, are probably indeed around 0.5%. The petite bourgeoisie is probably closer to 10-15%. The labor aristocrats similarly are likely also around that figure.
As to why, again, it's a question of class interest. The financial bourgeoisie benefits the most out of this social arrangement, so it stands to reason that their interests stand in contradiction with those of the lower classes.

>Literally everyone benefits from the system because the system in my country and yours
You don't think we could do better ? Like, not at all ?

>>18479548
>strawman
This is why leftism is in the dustbin despite being correct about the previous century.
Should have gatekept the spiteful mutants out. Instead you let in a bunch of freaks and called it “awakening the masses”.
Let snoozing freaks nap.
The working class doesn’t need a class consciousness, they need to be lead, the left suffers from talent drain.
Dutton did an episode on this.

No one on the Alt Right (rip) ever advocated for the rich you retarded dork. The were uniformly against it.
Whites are the real working class and the strongest anti-elite sentiment has always been from Whites.
>but how do reconcile hating Whites
STOP HATING WHITED YOU DEGENERATE WEIRDO

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>>18479628
My bad, forgot the picrel

I think the modern definition of working class would be someone who has low wealth, low income, but is also working full time in a sense that physically or mentally drains them. I guess an additional requirement would be that the work at least to some degree contributes to society and humanity

>>18478089
As much work as possible got exported so you wouldn't be around them.