Eternal conscious torment, annihilationism, or universalism?
>>18480602Universalism makes the most logical sense but has the least scriptural support.
>>18480609I think the NT supports both ECT and annihilationism depending on what you read. Paul and John seem to advocate the latter, but the synoptics seem to advocate the former. I don't see much indication of universalism in the NT but maybe universalist anons on here can enlighten me.
>>18480602Mark makes a pretty solid case for Traditionalism.Mark 9:44>Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
>>18480602Looks like the type of shit you see in an MMO
>>18480602OH also also From my own research the most justifiable one is annihilationism by a long shot followed by conscious torment>>18480609this basically
>>18480630He's quoting Isaiah 66:24, which is about corpses being burned, not a place of eternal fiery torment underground or wherever else.>And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me, for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
>>18480675He's referencing Isaiah to describe the experience of Hell
>>18480675Ok, and? Jesus is clearly speaking about hell here, why emphasize removing your own limbs than going into hell fire if said hell isn't eternal?
>>18480602The thing about Hell is that deep down all unsaved people kind of know that they're going there, so they have to invent retarded doctrines like annihilation in order to manage the terror they should rationally feel about their plight. They'll be tormented all the more for spreading that trash, and I'll watch them roast with glee.
>>18480675Matthew 25:41-46“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Annihilation and eternal torment need not be mutually exclusive.
>>18480703>‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENTUhhh I thought we just had to accept Christ as our savior to get into Heaven? Am I really going to Hell for not giving that homeless guy something to eat?
>>18480684>>18480703The word translated hell is Gehenna, most literally a physical valley in Jerusalem, but which around the time of Jesus did come to be used as name for a place of punishment for the wicked. However it wasn't necessarily understood to be eternal. For example, in some places in the Talmud it's limited to twelve months, after which the soul either leaves or destroyed :https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.33b.7?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en>The judgment of the wicked in Gehenna lasts for twelve months. Surely their sin was atoned in that time.https://www.sefaria.org/Rosh_Hashanah.17a.3?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en>The rebellious Jews who have sinned with their bodies and also the rebellious people of the nations of the world who have sinned with their bodies descend to Gehenna and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months, their bodies are consumed, their souls are burned, and a wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteoushttps://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.58b.13?lang=bi>Does it enter your mind that everyone descends to Gehenna? Rather, say: Anyone who descends to Gehenna ultimately ascends, except for three who descend and do not ascend...In line with the second quote, in Matthew 10:28 Jesus says: "Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." And revelation refers to the Lake of Fire into which Death and Hell (Hades in this case) are thrown as "the second death," which can easily refer to the total destruction of the soul following its time in Hades.>>18480703Total annihalation could be called a kind of eternal punishment, but there also translation difficulties around the word translated eternal which Universalists use to argue it refers to an indefinite (but finite) period of chastisement. Annihilationists can also use that to say it's a temporary punishment with culminates in total soul-destruction.
>>18480756Daniel 12 also says the punishment is eternal.
>>18480693It's better to lose a limb and make it to the kingdom of God, where you will live in paradise (with a new restored body, though that isn't explicitly mentioned in Mark 9), than it is to keep your limbs only to die and miss out? Even without threatening temporary torture, I think that should make sense. Jesus says, "it is better for you to *enter life* maimed than to have two hands and to go to Gehenna." He doesn't say that Gehenna is a fate worse than death. He says it's a fate worse than life.
>>18480602>For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.I guess I'm on the annihilationism team. Scripture really seems to imply that eternal life after death is reserved for believers.
>>18480770The contrast is between those who awake to everlasting life and those who awake to everlasting contempt. You don't need to be alive to be contemptible, and that it's contrasted with "life" suggests they're not. I admit that resurrecting people only to kill them a second time but even harder is a little odd, but I think this is the same thing that happens in Revelation 20, where Death and Hades/Hell give up their dead for the final judgment, and anyone who isn't in the book of life gets the second death. And that's similarly odd if you believe Hades is a place of temporary punishment. God fishes them out of one place of fiery torment where they've spent who knows how many years only to toss them into another place of fiery torment forever?
>>18480742
>>18480799There's also Enoch.And those men carried me to the northern region; and they showed me there a very frightful place; and all kinds of torture and torment are in that place, cruel darkness and lightless gloom. And there is no light there, and a black fire blazes up perpetually, with a river of fire that comes out over the whole place, fire here, freezing ice there, and it dries up and it freezes; and very cruel places of detention and dark and merciless angels, carrying instruments of atrocities torturing without pity.And I said, “Woe, woe! How very frightful this place is!” And those men said to me, “This place, Enoch, has been prepared for those who do not glorify God, who practice on the earth the sin, which is against nature, which is child corruption in the anus in the manner of Sodom, of witchcraft, enchantments, divinations, trafficking with demons, who boast about their evil deeds – (stealing, lying, insulting, coveting, resentment, fornication, murder) – and who steal the souls of men secretly, seizing the poor by the throat, taking away their possessions, enriching themselves from the possessions of others, defrauding them; who, when they are able to provide sustenance, bring about the death of the hungry by starvation; and, when they are able to provide clothing, take away the last garment of the naked; who do not acknowledge their Creator, but bow down to idols which have no souls, which can neither see nor hear, vain gods; constructing images, and bowing down to vile things made by hands – for all these this place has been prepared as an eternal reward.”
>>18480808>There's also Enoch.Enjoy Hell.
>>18480813I wish you were ignored by all men on earth.
>>18480808Enoch isn't canonical and regardless I bet the word translated "eternal" there can be argued to not necessarily mean eternal, but instead "indefinite" (not guaranteeing that it will come to an end eventually, but not asserting that it definitely won't either) or even something like "for the Age" in line with how Universalists argue the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion and it's associated terms should be translated in general.
>>18480825It's the same word used both for eternal punishment and eternal reward so if the word does not mean the punishment is eternal then neither is the reward eternal. >And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”Here Jesus used the same word for eternal life and eternal punishment, so if you are correct then eternal life is not real either and it is only temporary.If life for the rigtheous is eternal then it means punishment for the wicked is also eternal according to Jesus.
>>18480843For >>18480834
>>18480843I genuinely think death, true final death, can be understood as a variety of eternal punishment. And, again, as with many cases, I think that it's contrasted with "life" suggests that the alternative is "death," not life but you hate it.But, if David Bentley Hart's translation is viable, he has it as, "And these will go to the chasten-ing of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age." Which is kind of neither here nor there about whether the life will continue past the Age. There's just this big future time period, "The Age," and some people will have a good time during it, while others won't. Maybe all that happens after it is that the period of chastisement is over, and then a new "Age" begins where everything is fixed, and who knows what everyone will do after that.I think the possibility that you could die after a long life in the new heaven and earth is interesting though. It suggests a more Buddhist cosmology where the gods may be very long lived, but they do still die eventually and get reborn somewhere else.
>>18480865Enjoy burning. :)
>>18480872Unless you're a KJV-onlyist or, likely based on similar reasoning, a "God wouldn't have allowed the majority to be mistaken for this long" -ist, I genuinely think it takes marginally less coping to believe that the New Testament authors were on the side of some variety of annihilationism, with a purgatorial intermediary state that may or may not end in certain death for everyone.
>>18480887You're extremely retarded.
>>18480921Damn, you got me at my one weak point. I guess I'll have to concede the debate.
>>18480926I win!
>>18480834>>18480834Just because a word can be translated in a certain way does not mean it should be. Scripture talks about "aionios zoe" of believers after the resurrection. Are we to think that the world to come is temporary? Revelation cannot be any more clear that the torments of hell are without end, >And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever (αἰῶνας αἰώνων). There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.Notice the repitition of aion, this is not the 12 months in Gehenna of Judaism, this is an everlasting punishment. The rising of smoke is a symbol both of judgement, as upon Sodom and Gomorrah, but also of sacrifices going up as acceptable to God. Persons in hell are made as burnt offerings to God, appeasing his wrath, while those in heaven offer the oblation of their prayers
Lazarus and the rich man seems pretty clear to me desu.
>>18480703The fire is eternal, not the experience of burning in said fire. Perpetual stew doesn't mean you eat forever.
Catholic View: Ranges from ECT (Traditionalism) to weak Universalism (the hope that all mankind will be saved but not the certainty that they will) to even weak Annihilation (the idea that beings in hell are separated from God due to a deficiency in metaphysical being) Orthodox View: Ranges from ECT to moderate Universalism (the belief that everyone will be saved except for the demons) Anglicans View: Ranges from everything (unsurprisingly) from ECT to strong Universalism (all beings will be saved) and strong Annihilationism (the wicked will be utterly destroyed from existence) and everything in-between.Calvinist View: ECT, unsurprisingly. Adventist and JW views: Strong Annhilationism, typically goes hand-in-hand with their psychopannychist doctrine. Mormon Views: Generally Universalist, though does affirm that a small subset of the most evil people (like Hitler and stuff) will suffer eternal separation from God, believes that like 99% of humanity will go to heaven, but emphasizes different "degrees of glory", and married Mormons will experience the highest degree.
>>18481558Why would the fire be eternal if nobody is there to experience it? What's the point of it? Fear God my friend, he's really intends to burn and torture his enemies forever. He's not playing around. God never bluffs.
>>18481575To my understanding the Catholic Church teaches that hell is eternal but it doesn't specify the exact nature of hell so that's why there's a couple different views on what happens in hell. Some will take the Petrine-esque view (from the Apocalypse of Peter) that is basically the traditionalist view, to a belief that hell is separation from God due to choice, to a quasi-Thomistic view that hell is a lack of being, all the way up to the Orthodox view that hell is the experience sinners have while in the presence of God.
>>18481540That was a parable about the separation between the rich and the poor
>>18480602Eternal torture is the only one that makes sense. You're either with God or you aren't, there is no spectrum.
>>18481906Enjoy hell, bucko, you're doing religion wrong
>>18481906>Not with god right now>Not in tormentWhy is this possible in life, but not in death?
>>18480609>Universalism makes the most logical sense>God just made this reality and introduced free will to humans for it to be completely inconsequential and irrelevant
CT ---> Annihilation
>>18481459>Notice the repitition of aion, this is not the 12 months in Gehenna of Judaism, this is an everlasting punishmentBut there remain an alternate interpretation, picrel. And this part of Revelation is before the end, when all the dead not written in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire, the second death, after which there's a new heaven and earth, and "mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away.” Do you think it means, "Pain will be no more except for those guys still being tormented day and night forever in the presence of Christ; just ignore those guys. He keeps them around to make a point."Further the idea of smoke going up forever is used in one other place, in Isaiah 34, where it refers to enduring desolation, not enduring torment.>And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever. But the desert owl and the screech owl shall possess it; the great owl and the raven shall live in it.And while looking for the Isaiah verse, I found Psalm 37:20, "But the wicked perish, and the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures; they vanish—like smoke they vanish away." Do you think that can be true while God keeps them alive for torture purposes forever?
>>18481540The rich man and Lazarus story is concerned with Hades, which is a temporary place for souls before the final judgment, not Gehenna/the lake of fire, which results in the second death.And there are passages that might suggest that souls can be freed from there, like 1 Corinthians 15:29, which speaks of baptism on behalf of the dead, the verses used in support of the harrowing of hell (Hades), John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." which doesn't need to only apply to people during their earthly lives, and Philippians 2:10-11, which presents the possibility that those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (presumably meaning in Hades) will confess that Jesus is Lord, which elsewhere amounts to salvation.
