So what's the deal with the Empty Tomb? Is it a historical fact or not? Dale Allison says that it's a fact, Bart Ehrman says that there was no tomb at all, and everybody else is incredibly divided on this. If there was an empty tomb, was there actually a resurrection, or is the simplest explanation that Jesus's body was taken by grave robbers looking to sell necromantic magic materials?
>>18484008
Why is Jesus with glasses sitting at the table while Jesus without glasses takes the picture
>>18484008The only historical evidence we have for the empty tomb is the gospels themselves, so any "historians" you use as an authority are just bullshitting
>>18484008It's impossible to know for sure. Any answer beyond that is just speculation.
>>18484008Yes. Jesus existed that is historical fact. A huge movement begins of men facing death rather than recant that they saw him rise from the dead. This movement totally overruns the Roman Empire becomes the biggest world religion. It’s safe to say they saw something.
>>18484176And what makes you think they were actually killed for refusing to recant? Historical records for their deaths are quite scarce and most accounts of the apostles’ deaths come from church tradition or apocryphal texts written centuries later. Even if some apostles were executed, it may not have been because they were given an ultimatum to recant or die.- They might have been executed as perceived political agitators or for specific crimes like “disturbing the peace,” where recanting their belief in the resurrection wouldn't have saved them.- In many ancient persecutions, simply being a member of a suspect movement was the crime; a late recantation might not have prevented execution.- It could have just been sunk cost. Psychologically, individuals who have invested their lives and reputations into a movement may choose to die rather than face the humiliation of admitting they were wrong or a fraud.
>>18484082interdasting, I wonder it MacDonald talks about this
There likely was no tomb like Ehrman said. Likely the story was invented long after Jesus was executed. The only things we know about Jesus for sure as far as historic fact goes is that he was an apocalypticist preacher who incited a riot in a temple in Jerusalem and was executed by the Romans
>>18484149The perfectly preserved KJV demonstrates that bilocation is one of Jesus' powers.John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." — traditionally taken as a continuation of Jesus speaking to Nicodemus (from earth, not heaven) even though the whole passage beginning with the awkward shift to first person plural in verse 11 to verse 21 looks to me like something inserted into the story from elsewhere.
>>18484215>>18484154>>18484171How will atheists explain the fact that Matthew's Earthquake is scientifically proven?https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2149750/Jesus-died-Friday-April-3-33AD-claim-researchers-tie-earthquake-data-gospels-date.htmlOr with the fact that NASA actually confirmed an eclipse happened?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegon_of_Tralles#Reference_to_Jesus
>>18484227Earthquakes and eclipses still happen today anon. Nobody is arguing that there were no earthquakes or eclipses that inspired biblical literature.
>>18484239Them both happening at the same time?
>>18484244lmao, do you think it's physically impossible for an earthquake to happen during an eclipse? It would be an insane coincidence for sure but hardly miraculous
>>18484227>Or with the fact that NASA actually confirmed an eclipse happened?If Jesus died on or the day before Passover, the middle of the month of Nisan in the Jewish Lunar calendar, there can't have been a solar eclipse because the moon would have been more or less full and solar eclipses only happen during new moons.
>>18484227Matthew is the only person to mention an earthquake. No other gospel or Paul even mentions this. It's very clearly a literary device. The scientists of that study literally just used Matthew's gospel as proof of an Earthquake happening on that assumed date, and even then, there's prone to be a 50 year error margin.
>>18484278>>18484297>>18484253Lunar eclipse is still an eclipse, and don't you seriously find it almost too coincidental that both an eclipse and an earthquake likely happened that day when Jesus is thought to have died? And literary device my ass, it's not a literary device if it happened.
>>18484773It was a partial Lunar eclipse. Not a total eclipse, and nor is a partial eclipse dark in any fashion. Moreover, we really can't date that earthquake to 33AD, and it's a guess based ON THE BIBLE. If an earthquake happened, surely the other gospels or Paul would mention it.
>>18484970Eclipse is still an eclipse.
>>18484773>don't you seriously find it almost too coincidental that both an eclipse and an earthquake likely happened that day when Jesus is thought to have died?Is it any more coincidental than two "divine winds" protecting Japan from the Mongols?
>>18484008> taken by grave robbers looking to sell necromantic magic materials>> Simplest explanationBro how about the literal explanation given in the text, which is that it was a temporary tomb because of passover, and the body was moved to a permanent resting place early Sunday morning. Explaining why it was empty when the women went in there.
>>18485082Occam's Razor points to a resurrection.
>>18485150No it doesn't, you goober.
>>18485295How so?
>>18484008Jesus is a literary device. He was not a historical person. It's like saying the concept of Superman being real is silly and stupid, while defending the idea that Clark Kent definitely is real. Jesus was not a real figure. He was made up. Just like how David and his kingdom was made up to unite different tribes, give them a new monotheistic religion and identity and a guidebook on how to properly rule a country.
>>18486350fag
>>18486355>deviceRevirtue
>>18484008>If there was an empty tomb, was there actually a resurrection,Even in the gospels nobody makes the jump from "Jesus's tomb is empty" to "he must have risen from the dead." That would be ridiculous. Rather they believe it because Jesus appears to them. If one wants to make the historical argument for Jesus's resurrection, I would suggest focusing on those resurrection appearances because an empty tomb tells you basically nothing even if real.
>>18484008>Empty TombTrembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.Fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom.
>>18484176>Jesus existed that is historical fact.
>>18484773>Lunar eclipse is still an eclipsethe bible says there was darkness during the daytime. religiotards first claimed this meant an eclipse, then another religiotard switches to lunar eclipse. do lunar eclipses in the simple world you inhabit cause darkness during daytime?
My stepmother insists that when my dad died, his dead body was in the hospital bed but he was also standing behind me and my sister smiling at us all. Absolutely adamant. Turns out hysterical people in times of trauma see what they want to see to cope with the loss.
>>18484149Because AI is retards and anon asked it something like "draw picture of Jesus taking a selfie at the last supper" and because it's retards it drew a picture of the last supper AND a picture of Jesus without realising there should only be one
>>18484297Correction: There's about a ten year window in dating the quake, though they saw a pattern of small localized earthquakes 60 years apart from each other. It's practically impossible for it to be the same Earthquake Phlegon reported, and the only evidence supporting dating it to Matthew is just Matthew.
>>18486563They can cause darkness in nighttime.
>>18486700Not a partial lunar eclipse.
>>18486700Lk 23:44-45:>And it was about the sixth hour [= noon], and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was eclipsed [ἐκλιπόντος], and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. Is Luke the Historian lying?
