>>18487103Ironically, to some extent, yes.Notice the clear bias in the article, but they assume there's a significant North-South cline in India related to ancestry and social status. And check out what David Reich said in his most recent podcast. Check out minutes 1:30 to 2:30He said it was a moment of genetic transformation that culminated in the social structure we see in India today. And it's useful to keep in mind that this caste system is as old as the PIEs and we see its manifestation among Celtic, Germanic, and Iranian peoples:https://youtube.com/watch?v=7OfV16_xngQ&si=NCD-A5pwGSf-GYPC[Open]
>>18487131>>18487103Nazi cope.1)Corded Ware populations, Eastern European foragers, and Western European foragers were all much darker like me and overall than the populations that later developed the very light pigmentation associated with modern northern Europeans.2)Vedic texts often describe gods as golden, tawny, radiant, or shining, but that usually refers to fire, sunlight, dawn, gold ornaments, horses, or divine brightness not modern European blonde hair. 3) you're not aryan. You're Mleccha and worship Semitic gods4)There was no Sintashta migration, as shown by the latest Iron Age Iranian samples, as well as the Sinauli and Southern Megalithic samples dated around 2000Bce–300 Bce. 4) "caste system" isn't PIE and there's nothing to do with race5)The Yamnaya and the Indus Valley Civilization share common ancestry, specifically Iranian-related ancestry, which was predominantly present in the Indus Valley Civilization, as demonstrated by the Narasimhan. Indo-Europeans weren’t Indo-European or whte6)Andronovo, who were already 50–60% Northwestern Bharatiya (Iranian-related) through the core Yamnaya and later BMAC.7) Real information here of the verses. None of those means vedic people worshiped blonds. you Nazis come up with such. Cope cope
I have an autistic fixation on Indian history. Population genetics wise, yes, it did sort of happen like that, but 1) they got to the Punjab already fairly brown after trekking through central Asia for hundreds of years and 2) swathes of native Indians were assimilated into the Vedic fold by the priestly classes over and over again for political reasons. This allowed the brahmins to maintain control over society for thousands of years because they were permissive enough to not give a fuck about what race their bloodlines were. I'd argue that this has been a good thing for Hinduism as most of the best Indian philosophers/theologians were southerners and presumably had dark skin.>>18487142 represents a particular type of nationalistic retard commonly present in India, basically the /pol/ of India that denies all scientific evidence to the contrary and maintains that no Indo-Aryan migration ever happened because it contradicts the lord of the rings narratives in their holy books (not even the especially holy ones). Hey Mr Genius, if PIE developed out of India, how do you explain the conditioning factors/environments for Skt. /a/ to PIE *e and *o? I'll wait.
>>18487103>>18487131>>18487142The fact your meme has a paragraph written in perfect Spanish proves most White supremacists are subhuman latinx larping. Real Whites don't care about race that much. In WW2, most Whites fought against Nazis and the idea of a White ethnostate, never forget that. Good Whites hate your racist ass.
>>18487196>got to the Punjab already fairly brown after trekking throughThe fact is that the Aryan or Indo-European peoples mixed at the end of the Bronze Age or the beginning of the Iron Age, and the RV, at least its early verses, were composed in the Bronze Age and there is a consensus that they were derived from Andronovo or a para-Andronovo culture. So we are at a crossroads here; without samples, you cannot assert that. But considering that we have practically homogenous samples in Uzbekistan from 1200-1000 BC, it is not implausible to assume that they were still homogenous. I like to think that something similar to Spanish colonization occurred
>>18487196where do you learn most of it? I am trying to learn more but I run into the problem where the sources are mentioned but hardly described for English readersbeen having a much easier time with Chinese history
>>18487196Another thing, you're clearly biased anyway. So the difference between you and him>>18487142 lies in the way the information is presented.
>Indian philosophers/theologians were southerners and presumably had dark skin
>>18487103essentially yes>>18487201>Good Whites hate your racist assjews don't get to define what constitutes good and bad for anyone, they can can't even manage to follow the ten commandments
>>18487227>who is Shankara
>>18487246Indian philosophy is an oxymoron; nobody will buy into the flattery of Indian history here. But shall we talk about your philosopher? Basically, the so-called "Advaita Vedanta" is simply a very crude retelling of non-dualistic philosophy. Nothing particularly new here. And you believe he is the incarnation of Shiva??? Punjab bros
>>18487246Nobody
>>18487221> I like to think that something similar to Spanish colonization occurredWell you like to delude yourself, then. They are not remotely comparable.
>>18487346Well, you just regurgitate a bunch of personal explanations without any basis. Again, the cline in North-South India is not merely a coincidence and certainly transfigures into the social stratification we see today. The Vedic caste system was, in many respects, similar to the Iberian one >>18487131
>>18487364>>18487346Furthermore, it is undeniable at this point that the caste system, of Indo-European origin, consolidated itself with the arrival of the Steppe ancestry and prevented groups of different castes from mixing. If you don't believe me, you can check what Mr. David Reich claims, even though he is particularly an "anti-racist".
>>18487201>Saar us based White people hate white nationalism and have no problem with being flooded by Third Worlders>t. John Smith from Texas Pradesh
They were already brown, the genetic castes based on "race" not ability came later after the Gita.
>>18487409With all due respect, you aren’t qualified to debate this subject properly. Shuy fuck up. Your claim is just an assertion. You can’t state that with such certainty. The same could be said of me, perhaps, but the argument that they had "brown skin" because they originated in Central Asia is especially weak. We have samples from many candidate cultures in Central Asia that could be Proto-Vedic, such as Tazabagyab groups, plus samples from sites considered part of Andronovo. The vast majority are homogeneous, with little to no external admixture. And the Vedic people were Bronze Age, not Iron Age. Whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, the caste system transformed Indian genetics, culminating in the social structure we see in India today. And this division dates back to the Vedic period, with parallels found in Persia, Ireland, and Scandinavia.Avesta:~huitiš~vāstriia- fšuiiant-, lit. “cattle-breeding pastoralists” (parallels Old Irish bóaire)~raθaēštar-, lit. “standing in a chariot” (warriors)~āθrauuan- (priests)aire & aryahrí & rājanyahdoír & dāsa
>>18487439>Your claim is just an assertionI duno man, if you read the hindu holy books they say you were brown monkeys and that they aryans were your white gods
>>18487439>>18487409I.e. Sanskrit _ā́rya_, Germanic _erula-_ used by the Eruli, and Old Irish _aire_ all functioned as autonyms or ethnonyms. We can therefore conclude that the PIE root _h2er-_ was likely tied to Proto-Indo-European self-identification, possibly with a *racial* basisYes, nothing more to say at this point
>>18487103>Trasadasyu liked your post
>>18487364The post you replied to is my first post in the thread. The 'Iberian one' didn't exist. 'Casta' didn't even really mean what it does now, it' a false friend with 'caste' as used in english.>>18487367On the contrary, it is the 'spanish caste system' which did not exist. You got psy-opped by early 20th century Mexican historiography and pretty paintings.Diclaimer: I am not denying that descent based discrimination existed, much less in paper. But the assertion that a uniform system of institutionalized racial stratification existed in the Spanish Indies is prima facie false.Whatever model you have of the Jati System and its establishment seems to be based on a fiction, which is why I bring your attention to this.Also, as an aside, I think it's myopic to cite a geneticist without also citing a historian. Multidisciplinarianism is important. Those genetic studies have been criticized for their asusmptions and methodology, too. But that's neither here nor there.>>18487461Huenigger please no.
>>18487468Oh wait, you aren't the Brazilian. Sorry about that.
>Let not the phallus worshippers (Śiśnadeva) penetrate our sanctuary.” (Rig Veda 7.21)>Armed with his bolt he wandered, shattering Dasyu forts… increase the Aryans’ glory, Indra! (Rig Veda 1.103)>You killed the dark-skinned fifty thousand, destroying forts. (4.16)Not my words, btw >He won the Sun and horses, Indra won the cow that feeds many,Golden treasure he won, he destroyed the Dasyu and defended Aryan colour.”(Rig Veda 3.34)
>>18487471Cucksuckast.IVC chad
>>18487468So, What is the purpose of these posts, or those of your friend? As stated previously, there are substantial reasons to argue that "they" were homogeneous upon arrival in India. That is the core point, alongside the profound genetic impact of the caste system on India, the rigidity of which persists today. This is what genetic analyses of clines and gene gradients indicate. I am open to discussion, but this is my thesis>>18487131>>18487439It's not a terminological issue The misinterpretation stems from your attributing statements to me that I did not make. I stated only that the Vedic caste system was similar to the Iberian system, which you incorrectly deny existed, as does the comparison referenced here. In Iberia, there was a racial bias based on ancestry, with Peninsulares and Creoles constituting the colonial elite. That is my point of comparison with the Vedic caste system.The fact that these legal privileges of assimilation were offered to European foreigners, while mestizos and mulattoes maintained their status up to the condition of ochavones, sufficiently demonstrates that the caste division was not only religious and national, but also racial. What in Europe took the form of a society based on estates, in Spanish America was applied in a context marked by the new and crucial factor of racial diversity, taking the form of what came to be called—under a now contested name—the _caste system_. To say it didn't "exist" is a lie. And why are you insisting on this if it's not even the topic of the thread? Who's talking about Spain here? I used a comparison of less than a paragraph, and using that as a straw man argument isn't particularly helpful.
>>18487496So, in case I've been verbose, let's summarize what I said.From the beginning of the thread, the point was about the Vedic caste system, and later I was responding to this user>>18487196 about the genetic makeup of the ancient Vedic people, which I answered here>>18487221So for some reason, a valid comparison I made regarding a racial bias present in both Spanish America and Vedic India, (which was even compared other people) became a strawman. But it's off-topic and irrelevant.I am willing to discuss the racial composition of the ancient Vedic peoples and the prominence of their caste system, but not Spain. Although at this point it's already ad nauseam. Because it's irrelevant.
>>18487496I don't know who that other guy is, not everyone disagreeing with you is in league with eachother. I have no party in the dickmeasuring contest between the Indian subcontinent and wherever you come from that you two seem to be waging.You are wrong about what you said, but fair point. It doesn't matter. Sorry for that.
>>18487518According to the consensus of the jury, it's the vedic indians that had the bigger phallus
>>18487131For people interested in the caste system of the Germanic people, read the Rigsthula. You can find Ursula Dronke’s translation and commentary on Anna’s Archive. George Dumezil also has a good chapter in his book “Gods of the Ancient Northmen” on it. Basically, the caste system went:Thralls (slaves), Karls (farmers, merchants, smiths), Jarls (warriors and explorers), and Kings (sovereigns, priests, scholars). The last category of Kings is kinda assumed by Dumezil as the actual last page of the poem was lost, but it does seem implied by the repetitive formula of the poem. It also seems that this was the precursor of the medieval estates, of the commoners (karls), nobility (jarls), and clergy (kings). The poem says that populations could ascend through these castes via the god Rig. Elsewhere in Norse myth we find things like the Sceaflings (like a grain sheaf) becoming the Scyldings (shieldings). Farmer -> Warrior. As well as the Winnili (meaning battlers, winners) becoming the Lombards (a reference to Odin’s name Langbarthr, a priestly god). Warriors -> Priests. The Rigsthula also associates the estates with skin colour, saying peoples whiten as they ascend. Yngvi, Thor, and Odin are the gods of the Karls, Jarls, and Kings (according to Dumezil). Ursula Dronke compares the thralls to the jotnar, and the following three castes (as the bringers of civilization) to the Vanir and Aesir (Dumezil says the gods of the Jarls and Kings kinda merged to form the Aesir). Dronke also compares the progressive view of history spawning superior races of man with each generation, to the Olympians overthrowing the Titans.
>>18487613This passage from the Gesta Danorum I have sometimes wandered if it maybe reflects the theme of the Konr Ungr (King Young) being implied as the founder of the next estate of kings. >”This distress, he thought, would be best dispelled by business, and he resolved to find solace in exercise and qualify his grief by toil. To banish his affliction and gain some comfort, he bent his thoughts to warfare, and decreed that every father of a family should devote to his service whichever of his children he thought most contemptible, or any slave of his who was lazy at his work or of doubtful fidelity. And albeit that this decree seemed little fitted for his purpose, he showed that the feeblest of the Danish race were better than the strongest men of other nations; and it did the young men great good, each of those chosen being eager to wipe off the reproach of indolence. Also he enacted that every piece of litigation should be referred to the judgment of twelve chosen elders, all ordinary methods of action being removed, the accuser being forbidden to charge, and the accused to defend. This law removed all chance of incurring litigation lightly. Thinking that there was thus sufficient provision made against false accusations by unscrupulous men, he lifted up his arms against Britain, and attacked and slew in battle its king, Hame, the father of Ella, who was a most noble youth.”The Prussians and Germans also called their nobility the Junkers or Jung Herrs (Young Warriors). Think I once heard it had something to do with them being the youngest sons that couldn’t inherit land and so had to prove themselves in battle, but it was a poor source I heard it from, incase anyone cares to educate me. It makes me think of the Konr Ungr as well though.
>>18487613I think I saw an alternative description of the Iranian caste system where the king was at the top and not the priests. It would be nice to know the correct way to reconstruct the Indo-Iranian system and see if it could be harmonized better with the European ones.
>>18487613You seem very knowledgeable, how did the caste system in India develop past the early-vedic age? From the perspective of hermeneutics of the Hindu text, genetic, archeological and historical evidence?From my understanding, the Indo-scholars have put forward theories that the hymns in the rigveda (1200-1500BCE) are elevated mythological retellings of real conflicts against stub-nosed dark-skinned natives. Similar to pre-modern colonial era accounts of the spanish colonisation. The IVC sites distinctly lack horses, spoked-wheel chariots and rad bronze swords encountered at BMAC and frequently mentioned in the vedas. Along with a fractured IVC this assymetry in technology would've created for an easier land-consolidation and tribal skirmishes against strongholds, without the need for large-scale wars. There are also distinct segregated burial sites, which further show exclusionary tribal behaviour between aryans vs non-aryans. The andronovo-sintashta migration was primarily male dominated, as genetic samples of north-India suggest ~40% male lineages have the R1a haplo, but less than 10% of the females. This implies the aryans were more successful at mating with the native females than the vice-versa. Whether this happened forcefully or not is not understood.Then the idea of the purity of the patrilineal bloodline (saving the aryan race and color) must've formed sometime during the shift from Punjab to the Gangetic plain, as agriculture replaced pastoralism and this wealth surplus allowed for priesthood as profession and the Brahmanas (ritual text) elevated the Brahmins above Kings, which enforced hierarchies. The saramana movement and the composition of later upanishads (800-500BCE) rose in opposition to this, and described concepts of reincarnation and karma as axioms that form the dogma of hindu, buddhist and jainist thought.
>>18487749But the Brahmins used this (funnily) to consolidate further authority using karma as a reason for low birth, and by linking ritual purity to patrilineal descent. It become the foundation of gotras, which only the three "upper castes" have. In later centuries, the codification of various other text like Dharamshastra and Manusmriti (200BCE-200CE) that codified laws, reflected the deep stratification already present at every level. the only acceptable form of marriage would be called "Anuloma" men taking multiple lower caste wives, the opposite was discoursed (Pratiloma), And with time the Vedic society divided itself into 3 upper and 1 lower varna. Namely Brahmin, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. The first three being born out of occupations passed from fathers to sons becoming hereditary.Anything I'm unclear on?
