Do any books focusing on rendering in the way academic "Classical realists" do?Like you can get down blocking in and other workings on your own but the level of rendering they have is unique among what seems like the vast majority of them that gives the feeling of how they do it. I'd just like to prove I can get it done too without paying $1000 for a couple day workshop.For now I just can't really get behind how it's done, I know point size and gradual toning in matters, but these guys get really specific, pic related is done in graphite, charcoal, chalks, probably blender stump, probably on toned paper, heightened with white, and alcohol for smoothing. That's a very specific fashion of doing it and I was never a big pencil guy aside from the early phases, while it seems like knowledge on having a full arsenal on this stuff is of the upmost importance when it comes down to it.So if there are any books dealing with the subject of layering in depth from one hardness to another or when to blend and when not to? I'd appreciate it if any existed.
>>7709939Stephen Baumann and Watts teach this stuff, but frankly I don’t know anyone who has learned to render like this outside of the atelier system
>>7710049>but frankly I don’t know anyone who has learned to render like this outside of the atelier systemSo basically yes it's a taught thing that they haven't put to text, I hate to say it, probably to have a monopoly on?
>>7709939The answer is squinting. Not even lying. You have values, you then put them on the paper.
>>7710064rendering is rendering. its not much of a "style" rather just understanding light however the lengths the academic system goes to make these studies can be pretty specificthese aren't paintings or drawings done in a 2 hour studying session on a small sketchbook, or even a weekend study done on your tabletthese are very big canvases, done with a model for what can easily be for WEEKSthat kind of attention, and intimacy isn't something you can get out of a book. that kind of experience does influence someone and their relationship with fundiesits not something you can teach yourself. like where are you even gonna get a model to do this for you
>>7709939Juliette Aristides maybe? the process for that kind of work is well documented on youtube.that being said, start by making accurate Bargue copies. the underestimated "secret" is to spend dozens of hours on a single piece though.
>>7709939hey anon, I attended the Barcelona Academy of Arts for 2 years, of course I'm not as good as Grimaldi but I got the basics down. The best book I guess would be the Aristides book, although this skill really is something that needs to be taught in person. You could also try Scott Waddell, his youtube stuff is pretty good (mostly painting though), plus his patreon and other videos are shared on the /video/ general.Marco Bucci could also be good, lots of free material.Why is this skill passed on only in person? Because you won't see your mistakes until someone points them out. When drawing/painting from life, you are not copying values, you are translating the form you see into values on paper. You organize and build a hierarchy of values to create the illusion of 3D on a flat surface. There's 2 light effects you need to understand. One is the "fall of light", light gets weaker as it gets further away from its source. The other one is "speed of turning" of the form, where the light gets weaker increasingly faster as it gets closer to the terminator, this is Lambert's Law. Look all this up, it's too complex for an underwater basket weaving forum post. But do ask questions if you have them, I'll be around.
>>7710240Genuinely question, anon: why is it that all these academic artists rarely go on to create interesting works of art? Pic related is a typical example of their output. Just a guy standing around with a lightsaber. He doesn’t even look like a Star Wars character, more like a LARPer dressed up as one. The same goes for their religious art too. Why don’t they put use their rendering skills to better use?
>>7710240>Because you won't see your mistakes until someone points them out. The alternative being that without it being properly put down to text it gets at risk of eroding away over time like much historical art techniques have with only vague echoes left from other researchers, but that's a whole other issue and I'm not attacking anyone in specific over it, sorry if I sound salty.>But do ask questions if you have them, I'll be around.-Did they go over Grimaldi level mixed media? Did you use charcoal or other media in conjunction with graphite pencils?-If yes to above are charcoals going to be darker than graphite at it's darkest? When would you use the discretion of moving from one to the other? -How long did sessions go, 80 hours like some people have said if not over time for personal projects?Let's just say you had to isolate averages out because I am sure the answer is "Up to the eyes discretion when and where to use it" but for a moment just stay with me here:-Which pencils did you find yourself using the most?-When did you know to switch to a lighter one or a harder one? -Did you usually layer dark to light, or back and forth, or light to dark?-How were you usually able to tell where you needed to blend and where you needed to simply move one shade lighter?-How often did you find yourself using white highlights or toned paper? Did you start toned or use regular whiter leaning papers intially?>Scott Waddell, mostly painting thoughYeah I don't really want to paint that way and it seems like it's a crucial step for most of the painters which is why I am reluctant to sign up for any committed academic realism school, but if push does come to shove and I have cash to waste eventually can such a skill be learned in a 5 day workshop?I'm not the guy above btw, he's pulling out a totally different discussion, I just want to steal the rendering skill to add to my tool belt, subject matter is indifferent to me this is just something I've never mastered.
>>7710240Tell me how to window-shade with oil paint pls. Also, I follow lots of atelier kids closely on insta and the one thing I can't nail down is when I'm gradating, if I want to adjust the gradation, how do I find that perfect value again? Like I start the gradation from one "side" light or dark, and add a little paint, make a stroke, and so on through the gradation. But then if I want to 'go back' to a specific value, I can't get there. Even if I mix in a string along my palette! Then I can find the value, but I don't have enough of it.
>>7710289if this is actually academic and not slop, he is retarded because he forgot the light form the saber, therefore he was never a creative nor attentive in the first place
>>7710348It's a Waddell from like 15 years ago back when nerd culture was peaking in the worst way possible, so low effort slop would make easy money, and I recall reddit really loving "realistic Star Wars and nerd paintings" be it this, or Alex Ross, or photoshopped together digital stuff, or god forbid that one guy who would thrift other peoples paintings then fucking paint R2D2 into them as a gimmick.
>>7710352yikes! what people do for a quick buck
>>7710358Yeah.I think people (both using this term as a critique and those who use it as a "what's so bad about it, if that's kitsch I'm kitsch!" type way) don't realize that kitsch doesn't just mean any painting that is super boring realism or whatever, it's art that is made to sell to people with consumerist interests for a profit exactly like Star Wars paintings are in a especially inoffensive and gaudy way to the type of middle class who enjoy it. It's a very specific subset of art crimes and ironically a "Star Wars inspired" Picasso would be just as fucking awful and blatantly made to sell for $100 on Etsy.
>>7710289Because there's nothing classical about classical realism.
>>7710289>all these academic artists rarely go on to create interesting works of artI absolutely agree with you on that. My take is, only uncreative, soulless people have the mental ability to grind away at an uncreative, soulless task such as these academies demand of you. If you're even a tad creative, you'll get fed up and drop out. Colleen Barry said some days ago that 19th century art is dull, boring. 19th century art is the product of that training method. Before that, people studied in apprenticeships, with more meaningful work. I like Waddell's teaching, but his work is hideous, which is why he hides it away.>>7710336>Tell me how to window-shade with oil paint pls.Follow Waddell, he's the master for that. Others do it differently. The other thing you mention, there's 2 options: either you re-do the whole thing, you don't "jump in" to the middle of a gradation, or you wait for the first layer to dry and then you jump in, and if you're off you just wipe off the paint and try again.>>7710292At Barcelona AA we do charcoal, not pencil. Grimaldi is a genius when it comes to exploring media (kinda like that Gurpide woman), but he's actually creative, at BAA we just follow the book. Charcoal will always be darker than graphite, but graphite gives you much more fine control (you can sharpen your pencil like a needle, with charcoal it's a lot rougher).>Which pencils did you find yourself using the most?you could simplify and do 2B for shadows, HB for dark and mid light, 2H for very lightest light (and the white of the paper is your highlight).>When did you know to switch to a lighter one or a harder one?after hours of practice you just get a feel for it, you know how much tone each pencil can put down without wrecking the paper.I tried not to blend graphite, I love blending charcoal to soften edges.We all use mostly white paper. The toned paper plus white is just another exercise to move you out of your comfort zone, but the principle is the same.
>>7710292continuing...You can learn a lot in workshops, or you can just find a teacher on patreon and do regular online lessons (Look up Miriam Hoffman, she's great and never took a real class, she just had a bunch of Patreon teachers). I would say the best to learn to render is doing casts from life (not Bargues plates), so maybe buy one or two (they can be found for under $50) and grind away.Pic related is the work of a Grand Central Atelier professor. Technically perfect but absolutely soulless. Then again, the guy's korean, so what can you expect from him? Look him up, I kid you not, all he does is paint gummy bears and retro toys.
>>7710292More answers:>-If yes to above are charcoals going to be darker than graphite at it's darkest? When would you use the discretion of moving from one to the other?The problem with graphite is that you can't put too much graphite down without it starting to reflect light back, so even with the darkest graphite you can find, you would never want to put too much down. You don't have this issue with charcoal. There's new materials that allow you to mix graphite and charcoal, but traditionally you would never mix the two.>How long did sessions go, 80 hours like some people have said if not over time for personal projects?at Grand Central they do 80 hour life poses, and then on their cast drawing/paintings they spend up to 6 months, countless hours. At Barcelona we did one pose a month>-Did you usually layer dark to light, or back and forth, or light to dark?You always try to lock in your shadows first, then mid and light. The highlight is always the very last thing.
>>7710240I consider going there - was it worth it?I assume you won't post your work, but I wish you'd do. I visited the atelier and was rather impressed. It's a big commitment, though, for someone who already has a career (golden handcuffs).
>>7711268>Miriam Hoffman>look at her gallery>obvious ai reference usage>even copies the ai artifactsEvery single time with these modern academic painters.
>>7710289the worst part is that his skin doesn't even reflect the light of the saber
>>7711265>you could simplify and do 2B for shadows, HB for dark and mid light, 2H for very lightest light (and the white of the paper is your highlight).How many layers of hatching or cross hatching in each tone did you find yourself doing? >You always try to lock in your shadows first, then mid and light. The highlight is always the very last thing.Did you find yourself working from lightest dark first, darkest dark, or the middle?Did the way you hold the pencil matter or is that mostly a "For standing at easel" thing?
>>7710289confirmation biasplenty of artists leave the system to go onto be great artiststhe training itself is no guarantee that you'll be a great artist, nothing is but people with enough sense are capable of using what they learn for what they want to make certainly gives you more of a chance than just being a no training muh creativity guy who only thinks they have good ideas because they don't realize they can't write
>>7711327I know you. You're the guy from /trad/ claiming Will St John uses AI references. I think you have no idea what you're talking about. Miriam uses photo references, and if you bothered doing some digging, watching her youtube videos, you'd know she shows all her references during her process, which is mostly pics of herself. I think at this point the AI lives rent-free in your head>>7711324Worth it? I mean, it was better than nothing, sure, but definitely not at the level of Grand Central. Florence Academy is even worse, so I'm not sure there's any good options here in Europe. There's a lot of students and not enough teachers, they're all busy with their own shit, they just treat this as an easy gig while they try to make it themselves.I won't post but l was nothing special, just look at a mid-tier charcoal pose and that could be me.>>7711382it's not hatching, it's a different thing. Maybe Stephen Bauman explains it? You gotta see it to understand it. You should try not to go in layers, just get the right tone from the get-go, which is impossible so you'll do layers, but try to do as few as possible.I would work from the mid-dark and then correct as necessary. And yeah the way you hold the pencil is crucial, because you want control but not a lot of pressure..
>>7709939what's the actual value of spending more than an hour on a figure? And really even then most figures should be in the 10-20 minute range with a quick 2-3 value system. All the animation schools understand this and end up making the best draftsmen through accumulated reps.
>>7711618different worlds. We don't care about animation, we care about art. Look at OP's pic and show me any animator who can do that.
>>7711597>It's not hatchingCould you explain further? I see a lot of visible hatching in GCA works and other portraits, maybe there's a different in house technique?It sure would help if a book existed that recorded and explained each of these.>You should try not to go in layers, just get the right tone from the get-goDoesn't layering come from switching tones in hardness in either graphite or charcoal?>I mean, it was better than nothing, sure, but definitely not at the level of Grand Central. Florence Academy is even worse, so I'm not sure there's any good options here in Europe.Well why would you say that? Did the lack of time contribute or did you look at their programs and find something bad in specific?>>7711618I get what you mean but I just want to ape the style of the OP pics as a exercise.
>>7711712Hatching is used as the very first layer but then is covered up with careful rendering. Or when your pose is ending and you just wanna finish the pose, you go fast but sloppy with hatching. Compare your pic with OP's pic. This video is not the best but it shows a bit of what I mean, careful rendering of the form (slow it down to see it better):>youtube.com/watch?v=22hi-_n7HywLayering means doing several passes on the same area, with each pass darkening the area a bit more. It can be done changing the hardness or just with the same pencil, just adding more and more graphite with each pass. If you're using the same hardness, you have to apply a little bit more pressure with each pass.Look at the work coming out of FAA or BAA, they are nowhere near GCA. If you don't see that, you need to look better. Or look at the quality of the work done by the professors: FAA faculty is putting out work that I'd be embarrassed to call my own. And you can't compare Jordi Alama with Jacob Collins or Colleen Barry, they're miles away from each other in terms of skill. BAA/FAA barely teach any anatomy, their rendering is sloppier, their colors are dull. Of course, this could all be due to their admission process. I know that BAA/FAA will admit anyone willing to pay, they just want the money, while GCA is quite a bit more selective in their process (and it's crazy how GCA costs the same as BAA while being based in NYC. FAA costs about 3x as GCA).
>>7711729>FAA faculty is putting out work that I'd be embarrassed to call my own. Examples of this? I ran into similar issues before with other schools.
>>7711788have a look, most of them suck ass, both literally and figuratively>www.academyofartbarcelona.com/la-academia/profesorado/
>>7711793>both literallyThey have paintings of people rimming each other?Because that was my idea and they stole it if they have.Also you linked the Barcelona site and not the Florence site, or did you mean both are shit? I believe you if they're just showing photos of the professors and not their works.
>>7711597>I know you. You're the guy from /trad/ claiming Will St John uses AI references.It's sad that you can't tell. It's clear you're too much of a reference slave to know any different, many such cases.
>>7711843you're a schizo. I'm the anon from the Barcelona Academy so I've spent at least two years drawing from life every day. How am I a reference slave?
>>7711852Modern day academically trained artists are the very definition of reference slaves.Post some original creative pieces and prove me wrong.
>>7711852>Barcelona Academy so I've spent at least two years drawing from life every day. How am I a reference slave?Also lmao you can't tell that you answered your own question.
>>7711858>>7711860ah, so it's a language barrier issue, I see. I don't know how it is in your slavic hellhole, but here in the West, using a reference means copying another image, be it a photo, another drawing/painting, or an AI image. When painting or drawing from life, we don't call that a reference, that's just your model or your subject. Hope you don't confuse the two again!
>>7711902>using a reference means copying another image, be it a photo, another drawing/painting, or an AI image. When painting or drawing from life, we don't call that a reference, that's just your model or your subjectBehold, the modern day academically trained artist. Smart as a bag of bricks.
>>7711327I've seen so many trad artists doing this lately, sad to see.
>>7711729>Look at the work coming out of FAA or BAA, they are nowhere near GCANice to see someone else who has noticed this. Collins & Barry aren't the end-all, but GCA and Lyme are probably best in the world rn except the russian state school*, which has a wide variance in results. Lipking, Sarazhin, Muccillo, & some others are up there with Barry & collins imo, but they don't really teach.*Some of their students/alums do pretty top-notch stuff, even though rendering isn't as realized as GCA/Lyme. But their upper 30% 'get' color, form and anatomy and do
>>7714530>Collins & Barry aren't the end-all, but GCA and Lyme are probably best in the world rn except the russian state schoolAbsolutely agree. My only addition would be to point out that the Repin Academy can be VERY hit or miss. Listen to Loginov's interview on the Jeff Hein podcast, he says he would hide from his teachers so they'd leave him alone. >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xth4mrUJHbkBut at least it feels like students coming out of Repin have the goal of doing something artistic, have a view of their own. GCA/Lyme all end up hung up on technique with no creativity. Again, see pic here >>7711268 for peak GCA work.
