Do you agree?
>>7747932Anyone who doesn't is a moron. Imagine deliberately hobbling your own progress by refusing to use the tools at your disposal
>>7747932>spends 4 hours adjusting model to get specific pose
>>7747940does it really take that long though
>>7747932No, actually, not at all. It's the newbies who need to be drawing the hard way. 'Cheats' are all well and good if you have a deadline, but when you're learning it just leaves you with skill gaps, and an instilled laziness. You get taught to first do long division by hand because it leads you into implicit understandings of how math works that can then be adapted and applied to higher level subjects at a critical level. Skipping all that and using a calculator might get you the same right answer still, but you're not any wiser for it.
>>7747932Drawing mannequins exist, so I agree. Posing could be faster tho
>>7747932I disagree. "Cheating device" and "tool" are not mutually exclusive categories. As a matter of fact, all cheating devices are tools, and everything she said about 3D models - that they allow you to work faster and help with difficult tasks - applies to cheating devices. The poster has failed to supply any arguments supporting her claim that using 3D models isn't cheating.
>>7747932when newbie artists say something is cheating, how do they think people who aren't cheating get good and why aren't they learning to do it the hard way themselves?
There's a reason that chefs are asked to cook an egg. Tools are meant to supplement, not to be used as a crutch. Of course, we both know that you're baiting considering you samefagged the 1st comment.
>>7747964and how do you know that he samefagged?
tracing over a 3d model is cheating. using it to gauge a pose isnt. but as others said if you do it for a living us everything, even generated images (if they wouldnt suck so much)
>>7747932It's not cheating. Just use it and try to make better outcomes>>7747940>>7747953More like 10-15 minutes, at least using designdoll. CSP 3d models are quite bad tho. First draft would take about the same amount of time anyway. Once the base body is on the canvas just switch off the models, flip it a few times and spot the stiff and elongated limbs where 3d models usually suffer from. Adjust using your own knowledge.
>>7747961Permabegs are always the ones who complained most about cheating. They've been drawing for a few years but they're still at the newbie stage. They can't fathom that other people are 'cheating' instead of grinding the hard way like they do
>>7747932As an ideas for reference? Not at all. Tracing over them? Eeeeeeeh to each their own.
>>7747932I generally agree, but so often it leads to shittier stiff art, even if the overall figure is more anatomically correct because of the 3D model. Just look at webtoon artwork, so much of that uses 3D models for stuff, and so much of it is stiff unappealing shit - there's a reason why practically no one talks about the artworks for them, which is a shame because there are some gorgeous ones out there.
>>7747932Kind of depends on the situation imo. For basic shit using 3d models feels a bit of a waste of time, as if you learn how to do stuff like perspective, anatomy and poses you just save time in the long run by being able to intuit that shit as you draw rather than using some clunky 3d model to reference. For really complex shapes etc or difficult perspectives, angles or whatever 3d tools become more useful imo.
>>7747932yeah. you give a nodraw a blank 3d model and tell them to draw something with it, but they don't know how to draw and color, you'd still get a terrible, but proportionally correct shit picture.i just kind of disagree with the newbie artist thing, i think this kind of tool could become a crutch where they never develop the ability to draw without it.
>>7748082>where they never develop the ability to draw without it.But is that an issue? If they're happy drawing with it, what's the problem exactly?
>>7748093depends on where they want to go artistically. drawing from imagination is a pretty important milestone to me.
>>7748093Whether or not they're happy with it or not is irrelevant to it being bad practice. If anyone only ever did things that were comfortable for them, you'd never get any improvement at all. That's how you get The Slop, it's the end result of ignorant comfortseeking.
>>7747932I've seen this debate for years now and I don't understand why people are arguing over this.If you want to master drawing and painting, then don't use these tools.If you don't want to master drawing and painting, then go ahead.If you have already mastered it and are working on a project under time pressure, then go ahead.As long as you don't trace other peoples work and sell it as your own, who the fuck cares? (tracing can be invaluable for practice though)You are only up against yourself and against your own standards you set up for yourself.
>>7747932Depends on the kind of reputation you want to build for yourself. You want to be known as someone that needs to trace models? Fine by me, I'm not doing the hiring.
>>7747932It's the same shit for 3D models, stabilization, shape tools, lasso tool, transform, layer blending modes, etc.If you always use it and use it as a beg, you'll always rely on that crutch and will never be good.If you learn to do it the hard way and THEN decide to use these tools to help with the most difficult poses/tight deadlines, then it's a helpful tool.
>>7747932I personally don't like CSP's 3D model. Too jank for meAs long as you don't trace, it's not cheating.I consider "cheating" as "drawing without learning just to achieve an end result", meaning that by tracing, you don't really learn.
>>7747932dont care. I don't need it. If you need it then use it. I don't care what you do as long as it's not AI slop trash.
>>7748126I'm not sure why people keep telling people to trace. I'm being serious. Remember when you learn how to write the alphabets. Did you actually just trace the model "a", "b", etc. with a transparent paper? No, you use your eyes, and copy the letters next to the ideal examples.
Newfag here but i wonder, are people in the art community really pedantic to the point they jump on you when you're called out for using reference? For learning it's bad if you just rely on copying models, i know. But it's not like using maquettes is unheard of for artists.
>>7747932>please newbie artists use a 3D crutch!Gotta give it to xym, that's a very clever way to weed out future rivals
>>7748237OP isn't referring to people using 3D models for references, no one has ever given a shit about that. They're referring to people who trace them.
>>7747932It's fine, just don't trace them - I've seen enough stiff, basic designdoll proportions anime girls already.
>>7747932I hate when people push crutches on newbies cause they get validated on social media that way. Yeah keep tracing 3D, you're gonna git gud for sure!You can use all the shit you want if you know what you're doing especially when you have deadlines but tracing isn't going to teach you shit.e
>>7748239lol
Do I listen to my FUCKING HERO who told me in DMs they use models and are now uber popular on X with over 200k followers or do I listen to a bunch of trifling, snobby ah jits on /ic/ telling me not to do it and to suffer in purgatory drawing boxes all day.
>>7748324Cool, show us the huge boost in quality your art has seen since tracing models
>>7748344>pyw
>>7748344you know where to look
>>7748422and the before picture?
>>7748422While I broadly agree that art instruction grifters and patreon e-beggers sucked the fun and creativity out of the internet art and mindbroke everyone into minmaxxing for engagement this is just a Dobson-tier straw man telling you to choose between two extremes and not explore options and develop your own habits.
>>7748422The reason why most people would rather draw 10000 boxes than learn by drawing what they enjoy is that they don't love drawing at all and they don't enjoy anything. They just want to sell porn, which is not something you can love. Like drinking booze or smoking pot it's not something you do because you love it. The prospect is truly the equivalent of getting paid to smoke pot and sell pot which is the ultimate dream of the drifting XXI century amoeba whites and third worlders.
>>7747955This comment was made by a white man.
i dont even let myself use liquify, why would i trace over a 3d model and purposefully make my own knowledge of form worse?
>>7747932Same argument about tracing AI. it's valid and shouldn't discouraged.
>>7748422/ic/-tan needs to put a shirt on damn
Is this the same tard who complained about AI stealing their art in another thread
>>7747932Calling it "cheating" implies that drawing is a contest with rules. Of course, there are legalities involved in drawing commercial work; using poseable 3D models is not copyright violation, for example. There are also matters of etiquette and ethics; using poseable 3D models is not swiping or referencing another person's work too closely. Is it good practice? That's another question altogether, and depends on what kind of an artist you want to be. I don't use poseable 3D models.
>>7748463tracing ai scares me because i wouldn't know if its teaching me bad habits.
>>7747932>artist>tracerpick one weeb faggot.
>>7748467u mirin?
>>7748422I really do miss these tan characters.
>>7748537I miss old /ic/
>>7747932If you can create a concept art with pencil and paper, then I don't care what tools you use even AI is allowed.
>>7748595I have been going through the tan wiki for like a couple of weeks now and I really do want to draw /ic/-tan againmight add a couple more characters too
>>7748422Me on the top left. Please don't look stare at my tummy too much ///
>>7748011in some ways they're right about "cheating" but i don't think i've ever seen any of these permabegs have any skill in fundies or even desire to learn themi mean, if you never want to "cheat" just learn perspective but they never do
>>7748703pyw
>>7748460Is this supposed to be an insult?
>>7747967It's a bait thread with a bait response meant to bait (You)s.
>>7748764On TikTok it is
>>7748774Why would I care what the chings think?
>>7747932You can smell model cheaters a mile away. It's good to learn how 3D works so you can spot them and ignore their work or take it with a grain of saltModels are fine for inorganic things with insane perspective, or drafting stage with figures, but organic 3D models should not be visible in your final image.
>>7748784Let me ask you something, do you have 50 - 100k followers? No? Then why the FUCK should I listen to you over someone that religiously uses models in their works? 1 reason.
>>7748800You're ngmi for thinking follow count matters at all
>>7748800cause the truth doesn't change even if you have 100k followers chang
>>7748804>>7748821Compelling answers, oniichan, but it's not convincing.
>>7748800Follower count alone doesn't mean anything. You can literally go and purchase 100,000 followers right now for any social media site you want.
>>7748830Okay let's do this...do your posts reach half a million in engagement?
>>7747932buy an ad
>>7748830Agreed. I've seen people with barely 15k followers making 100k+ from their art while people with 100k followers barely make 1k a month
>>7748840Half a million engagement doesn't put any money in your bank account
>>7748840Artists with 100k+ aren't even reaching half a million most of the time, that's nonsense. 100-200k engagements is pretty normal for popular accounts that aren't click farming. Realistically posts will hover around 10-20k if they don't go viral.
>>7748881That’s not my problem if you got a reach but aren’t making money, that’s a separate skill set. In any case we are diverting from the core point at hand and that is artists who use these tools are successful and found what works for them. More importantly, it’s a consistent way to push out high quality art in the age of AI. Like I pay for CSP each month and to have someone say “don’t use 3D model, the thing you’re paying for each month because because that’s cheating” is absolute nonsense.
>>7748460>>7748774
>>7748522Trace ai quicklyTurn it offFlip, zoom out and spot the parts that are wrong or stiff (you will find them. Usually it's long torso, long upper arms, eyes that are a bit too small). Gesture draw over them and then redraw again with the previous sketch already layered.Also it is pretty easy to spot AI tracers. You can see if their work are begs from 2022 and suddenly they're putting out professional body shapes in 2024/2025
>>7749201are you a professional ai user?
>>7749201>doesn't think you can learn anatomy in 2-3 yearsGrim.
The fallacy of cheating in art is to believe that EVERYONE or ANYONE can replicate the art or success of the accused if they did the same thing as them, BUT surprise, surprise, it's not as easy as tracing, using references or 3D models and becoming the next Kishimoto, Oda, or Fujimoto.STOP thinking that you are like them because you have paper, pencil, ink, or a digital tablet. You are NOT like them because THEY do draw, they draw until they bleed, they draw 16 hours a day, they devote their lives to drawing. Kentaro Miura literally worked so hard that his heart veins exploded.JUST DRAW.
>>7749229Correct. Just draw in any way shape and form. We will all make it
>>7747932CSP is like a wheelchair for people who don't have a very vivid imagination and need references for poses. Nothing wrong with that.I just don't see how using a separate app and spending time setting up poses there is faster than just drawing that from imagination. Once you draw enough, you'll know what every pose looks like and you won't need a reference.
