>>7753599why aren't you?
>>7753599who is it?
>>7753599I don't have ADHD meds
>>7753617plenty of alternatives
Did you mean 8+ hours once a week?
>>7753630Like what? And don't say caffeine
>>7753632who is this artist
>>7753632Still better than most of /ic/
>>7753639not OP, but it's this one:https://www.youtube.com/@58mw91/streamspretty nice to leave it as background while doing another task
>>7753599>watch japanese mangakas spend 14+ hours on a single page>watch EO58 draw for 12 hours on stream>Come to /beg/>read how some anon that "made it" can draw anime girls in 30 minutes and how anime is a bad styleI want to kill every single mediocre /ic/ poster, like you have no idea, every single oldtroons are mediocre, you never made it , you are garbage. Masters and Beginners always spend hours learning and challenging themselves, it's always the intermediate and pseud masters the ones that rush thing, hey why do you think you are drawing memes for pennies you absolute fucking loser./ranteo58 brushes are really good, google them.
>>7753658>eo58 brushes are really goodI don't want to use photoshop
>>7753599because I'm playing assetto corsa
>>7753658newsflash, 90% of anyone youll ever meet in your entire life in person or online is mediocre, its the bell curve. they will never achieve anything meaningful or put effort into anything until the day they die.the only thing you can do is put your head down, shut out the world, and work. Because even if you do make it to the top, all those around you will say you were born talented and thats why you could do it.
I wouldn't want to draw anime for more than a second
>>7753678then you're irrelevant
>>7753599my drawing juice ran out
>>7753632This guy is so good, and he’s not even a /pro/. Definitely not a youtube grifter, not charlatans like those in art course general. And his stuff is closer to Japanese, his drawings lack that Korean ugliness.
>>7753676Very true. The more you engage with these people, challenge their biases and offer your opinions based on actual effort and experience the more pissed off you'll become. You find yourself caught up in arguments with some midwit putting words in your mouth, flinging ad-hominems and so on. That in turn will naturally deprive you of mental energy. The same finite mental energy you cultivate and protect in order to continue progressing in your own artistic journey.There is simpy no time for it. Let them have the metaphorical win and sabotage themselves. There is more important things to focus your energy towards.
>>7753676>>7753722pyw
>>7753658good post
>>7753658based. if you haven't ever spent triple digit hours on an illustration you probably have dirt low standards.
>>7753754pyw
>>7753599i would draw 8+ hours every day too if i had talentbut instead i have to suffer painstakingly searching and badly copying refs just to draw an idea and hope that luck will be on my side and they will turn out good today
>>7753617aka amphetamines
>>7753693He is /pro/.
>>7753599I have my reasons
>>7753658If you needed to do this much legwork to realize most people here are just talking out of their ass then that's on you, friend.
>>7753658You will never be Japanese. Nobody cares about your effort unless the product is good. I don't care if Toshi Tsunamibakadesu spends 180 hours drawing a single figure if it's shit and nobody reads or cares about it. Labor theory of value is a fucking meme. You are subscribing to an unironically marxist view of labor and value which says that time spent = value. Many more people have heard of Matt Groening or Yoshito Usui and they didn't spend 14 hours a day streaming themselves drawing. >tl;dr appeal > everything, time spent =/=value
>>7753599They should invest more time on learning to construct with less lines.
>>7753818>You will never be Japanese.based racist Japan.>Nobody cares about your effort unless the product is good.without effort it will never be good because Japanese standards are so high. the westoid invents copes because he cannot put in the effort, and any effort he does put in is wasted because it's directed towards a subpar cartoon tier goal from the get go.>appeal > everythingwhat do you think appeal is? how do you reach it without effort and time spent?
digital art is worthless
>>7753599im drawing for 8+ hours every other dayblueprints at my jobfor all the other 8+ hours im sitting doing paperwork for those blueprints
>>7753818bro stealth advocating for jugaad :skull:
>>7753831two more weeks saar appeal will be very good
>>7753818Many more people have heard of =/=value
>>7753818This sounds like projecting cope.
>>7753822>”westoid” I fucking hate you weeaboo niggers. You’re genuinely becoming a parody of yourselves. If the folded 10,000 times steel meme were still relevant you would uphold that. >inb4 low cognitive resolution inb4 anime website The issue isn’t anime or even the pursuit of anime or manga. You people just act like you need to dedicate thousands of hours to draw cute cartoons. You literally think that all cartoons or comics come out of Japan need flawless fundamentals in order to be good or successful. Again, this is demonstrably false and parochial. Also, you never addressed the issue of time spent = value, which is what the original thread idea hinges on.
>>7753835>You people just act like you need to dedicate thousands of hours to draw cute cartoons. It does, which is why the west lost long time ago. Keep co3ping.
>>7753818This is a nice spaz out and all, but what does that have to do with that the anon you're responding to was saying?
>>7753842Because I guarantee you there are people who have much larger followings and make more money (Google average Japanese GDP kekw) without needing to slave over box construction like some autistic chink. You don’t need that to make cute cartoons. You can make them TODAY, and they’ll probably go further.
>>7753845I say “box construction” as a shorthand, but I mean obsessive fundies grinding.
>>7753835Yeah to draw it on the level resembling anything in the competitive Japanese meta of the last 10-15 years it will take thousands of hours to get there. If you want to draw something requiring less effort then go ahead, but you're only using it as a cope becuase you cannot git gud.>good or successfulmost successful Japanese works have art that is the result of tens of thousands of hours of effort put into developing the styles.> time spent = valueThat anon never claimed that time spent is already valuable, only that a lot of time spent on developing your craft without rushing things is a necessity for high value.>>7753845>make moneySo there we have it, for you it's not about art at all.
>>7753835>>7753845>You don’t need that to make cute cartoons.>You can make them TODAY, and they’ll probably go further.pyw.
>>7753839
>>7753847Box construction is a westoid cope in the first place so I don't know why you're bringing it up. There are other fundies that relate directly to drawing cute cartoons but that's not for goyim ears.
>>7753658People either bullshit about how quick they are or are using shortcuts. You have to be godlike to draw a great picture without prep in two-three hours.Anyway thanks for artist streams. Do you have more? I would like to see how they draw.
>>7753853>competitive Japanese metaSo then as I’ve said the order of operations: >anon sees guy having fun posting anime girl that the average /ic/ viewer looks and and likes >he gets mad because it took 30 minutes, which by god, if only he knew how much time sake wakarimasenishita spent rendering this schoolgirl’s thighs >copes by saying that w-well he’s not REALLY making it because because he’s not making 18,000 USD a year to be an inbetweener slave >gets buttbothered when someone correctly points out that you don’t need 15 daily hours of fundies grinding to make compelling or cute or interesting art
>>7753859>>7753754
>>7753865>compelling or cute or interesting artThese are subjective terms that mean different things to different people, that anon wasn't saying anything bad about people making art on a lesser skill level but rather lamenting how people look down on something that takes true skill while they can't do it themselves. They're like you and confuse making profit with artistic/stylistic value.>>read how some anon that "made it" can draw anime girls in 30 minutes and how anime is a bad style
>>7753872I don’t confuse profit with style and artistic value. But what does “making it” in this context mean if your art isn’t accepted? It’s the same cope people while they say they “do bodybuilding for themselves”. Why even post your art? Why even share it then? Just rip up the paper or delete the file. It’s just such a cope. Also yes, sorry the world doesn’t recognize the artistic genius involved in creating, that’s a burden you will have to bear. Sometimes your effort won’t be rewarded with recognition. It sucks, but it’s part of being creative.
>>7753864https://www.youtube.com/@はいむらきよたか-s4ihttps://www.youtube.com/@黒星紅白https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG4Npuo_VppQWiYJxMotNasSx2TRei1-Dsome jp pros I enjoy watching.
>>7753875people use*
>>7753876Nice! Thank you!
>>7753875>But what does “making it” in this context mean if your art isn’t accepted?I'll translate for the autistic zoomers in the room>>read how some anon that "made it" can draw anime girls in 30 minutes and how anime is a bad style>>you never made it , you are garbagedunking on anime while not being able to match its quality is not truly "making it" according to an artistic minded person, anon is challenging the notion that making it only means making it in terms of profit, but rather that it is a more complex notion that includes: persistent growth and refinement of skill, recognition from your peers and the market, being competitive with other artists of a high level, etc. art is not only a money making machine even if selling products that involve art is indeed a part of the proverbial 'making it'
>>7753885More like translate for native English speakers. I’m not too proud to say I misunderstood if that’s what he was trying to say, in fact I agree. It’d be just as dumb as a painter doing a mediocre sculpture and going “lol c itz ez” to a group of professionals. I still think the Japanese worship here goes too far, and encouraging people to have unhealthy habits like drawing for 14 hours a day are dumb, but I won’t place that on you, more on the retarded board culture of “all or nothing”.
>>7753599work really does drain me and i don't know why or how. i thought everyone who complained about their 8 hour a day office job killing their soul was just a lying fag but i know the truth now. i get home and i just have no energy for anything but a short run and some shitposting. picrel's the last decent thing i drew...in march of this year, then a work convention hit and work hit and i am just exhausted. i think i was on a good roll looking back but now i worry i've backslid and it's scary to try
I don't really know what to draw for 8 hours a day or how to be mindful while doing so. The only time I seem to be able to is if I either>A. jump between 3-4 very different concepts- some book copying, some doodling, some photo reference, some original work>B. have gotten past the initial problem solving phase of an illustration and can refine or render for hours and hoursthe painful problem solving period isn't fun to me and I'm not consistent or hard working enough to spend an entire day there
>>7753658uhhh, based?
>>7753599Been getting up there, averaging around 5-6 hours now but recently only been able to get in 2-3 per day because of work. Though when you only got a couple of hours the whole process seems to flow very efficiently.
>>7753894>I still think the Japanese worship here goes too farJapan has the highest standards and competition in art right now and has been unfairly criticized by the west for a long time so it's only natural that people will respect it and be more aggressive in their views on an imageboard.> It’d be just as dumb as a painter doing a mediocre sculpture and going “lol c itz ez” to a group of professionals.Funny but that is exactly how we see any attacks on Japan from objectively lower skilled western artists. It's not even about race/country but the degenerate anti skill art culture that's sadly been dominant in the west, it's slowly changing though and we're making progress.
i can barely get myself to do 1 to 2 hours how would i even do 8
I managed 6 hours today. Could have been more if I didn't have to work. But cause I'm a beg, a lot of it was redoing stuff to get it correct. Not a lot of efficiency yet.
>>7753658>every single oldtroons are mediocreSAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRR
>>7753658I looked up this EO58 character and sure they draw for a long time but they don’t spend more than a few hours on each piece, but they bounce around a lot so it’s hard to get an exact number.
>>7753658you don't draw. There's a reason short timed (5-15 minute) figure drawing is the preferred method of learning for animators.
>>7754051Nta, I'm a slow drawer. Should I aim for 15 minutes max for a figure? Animators draw really well so I was wondering
>>7754057Just attend an actual irl figure drawing session and find which times work well for you. I wouldn't be spending more than 20 (ish) minutes on a figure with a simple 2-3 value system.
>>7753617I understood that reference
>>7753742If you get offended by this then you're obviously the exact demographic I'm talking about. You first. Prove me right.
>>7753807Wait, isn’t this guy a salaryman and doesn’t he only draw as a hobby?
>>7753617i'm sorry you don't have autistic hyperfocus like me (i still suck though)
>>7753862>that's not for goyim ears.wait so jews are the ones making anime?
>>7753818>You are subscribing to an unironically marxist view of labor and valueok so we agree its right then
>>7754101I was actually just referencing my own life, now I'm curious what I accidentally referenced
>>7753599because my europoor country doesn't medicate ADHD and I have to jump through hoops to get a flow going.
I started drawing in January 2021, drawing more than 8 hours a day. It was rare for me not to draw every day of the week, only when I had something important to do. Did that help me improve quickly? Yes. Would I do it again? I wouldn't say no, but I would try to have a better balance between my social life and drawing, and get a lot more rest. I had health problems during that time, since I didn't leave the house and didn't do any physical activity, I developed anxiety that I didn't have before... besides that, during these last 4 years of being an antisocial artist, I don't remember almost anything, not even my birthdays, since every day was almost the same for me. The feeling that I lost an important part of my youth is quite latent, but at least today I can make money with my art and have a future in something I enjoy. Since the beginning of 2025, I've been trying to draw for a maximum of three to four hours a day and leave Saturday and Sunday to rest. I'm much better. If I were to give a tip, don't rush things, unless your future and career depend on it, then go for it. (In my case, I was already 22 and had dropped out of two colleges, so it was kind of do or die. My cousins were already getting married and working at jobs... I kind of felt useless without a career... at least something I was minimally good at.)
>>7753658>>watch japanese mangakas spend 14+ hours on a single pageThis is retarded considering most readers will spend less than five minutes before going to the next page
>>7753901Shit horns for cuckolds like you
>>7754808I’ve heard worse chud
>>7753767There's no such thing is talent. Its more of people who can identify and comprehending what they see putting it onto a canvas. Some may understand quickly than others. However, depending on the person, they could lack understanding while another artist will comprehend it quickly. Hard work and dedication is where its at. TRUST THE PROCESS. HAVE FAITH! Developing you art is a life journey and will take long time to develop. Remember you must be bad at something first in order to be good. Imagine 1 hour a day and you do it for a year. Thats 365 hours in your log.
>>7754969who/what did you study?
>>7754969how long from left to right
>>7755002about 2 months
>>7753693what's wrong with courses?Why the fuck would you give your knowledge away for free?Boggles the mind people are even willing to create more competition for a measly few hundred bucks.You couldn't pay me enough.That said my video course would be: "Just draw".
>>77535991 millionth random chink account draws anime decently. Can anyone explain to me why asians are stuck in and endless loop of thinking 2d symbol drawing is peak? I grew out of anime after highschool and eventually realized 18th century french academic artists are on a higher level of skill than the best mangaka artist.
>>7754977>>7755002I been drawing since i was little. But i started to draw more seriously/(on and off) around mid 2011 ish. The miku drawing was the first drawing ive saved on my computer back in 2012.Old:top to bottom 2012- 2013ish. New:top to bottom:2025- 2016. I've studied kim jung gi(perspective character drawing)/TAKAHIRO IMAI(oilpainting and color choices)/a bunch of nsfw artist/ and attended a bunch of life studies nude classes. I suggest study reference instead of actual artist because you get to develop your own style and call it your own.Also studying other artist work, you'll develop their bad habits too. Unless you REALLY like their artstyle. Then study the artist work. Dont study the results but find out how they did it (methodology). Im still not satisifed with my art and artstyle and i will continue to keep on working on my craft.
>>7755019Its like sports or math problem/academics. You observe/learn a concept and apply it right after you learn the concept/reference. You copy from reference and you immediately redraw what you learned from the ref studies.(if you have a lot of time you do it right after the ref studies or if you don't have time, you do it tommorrow) If you didn't understand the reference, you have to go back at it again with the ref studies til you learn how it shape or formed. The thing that helped me a lot when it came to studying things was learning about how to see the objects as a silhouette or applying contour lines to the reference. When artist draw something without guidelines or from "imagination" they usually most likely seen it before or have applied it a few times on their drawings. So i truly don't believe they came up with it from imagination. Unless they used guidelines to problem solve their proportion + pose or whatever your their drawing. I remember hearing this from a friend who does art professionally. He told me that you have to know the rules in order to break them.(So its okay to copy from reference/photos, so you can break the rules and create you own stylized artwork and make art the way you want it to look like)
>>7755040by "study reference" i'm assuming you mean actual life photos?
>>7755068Yeah like photos of real humans from pinterest or those reference pack. They have some threads on /ic/ that share out those gofile download that have those reference packs that provide models who pose in different angles. That if you're doing character studies.
I hear the best way to improve is to have art friends.You DO have art friends, right anon?
I don't have the mental energy to draw more than 30 minutes. Now what? I could be drawing right nwo but its like theres a veil over my head and I can't focus.
I don't draw because I imagine my mom asking me "what did you do today" and I can't just say "I drew naked anime children".
>>7755080I say the best way to improve is to draw with people on those muliplayer online whiteboard sites. But yeah most of my friends are artist.>>7755081I feel that. I have adhd. What i did back in when i was younger was abusing focus pills and caffienated drinks(redbull/monster) Don't do that. Your health is more valuable than anything in the world. What help me for motivation for drawing is that i would purposely do mundane activities. So when the option to drawing something comes up. Im fired up and ready to produce something. Idk if you'd experienced this but when i was in middle/high school, my drawings when i was bored in class was way better in quality and creativity compare to if i drew something at home when i had free time. >>7755082lolol that's fair desu
>>7753634NTA, but nicotine. ADHD heads have been self-medicating with it for a long time.The good news is that you don't have to smoke. The only reason tobacco is so addictive is because it's chock full of MAOIs, and lung absorption makes it all hit your brain like a freight train. Pure nicotine by itself is only a little more addictive and harmful than caffeine. It doesn't give you cancer like tobacco does. The only real downside to nicotine is that it increases heart rate and blood pressure, which isn't good, but that's true of any stimulant, including ADHD meds.I've been using 4, and sometimes 8, mg nic almost every day for over two months now and I don't get cravings or withdrawals. It's a fairly mild stimulant, like caffeine, but unlike caffeine it acts more directly on dopamine plus it binds to acetylcholine receptors- acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that also functions in attention, focus, and memory. Nicotine has been working pretty well for me so far- generally, it takes me from the typical listless doomscrolling stupor I'm usually in, to hyperactivity, and then when it reaches the sweet spot I calm down, feel more focused and in control, and additionally my verbal intelligence and memory functions better (I presume this would actually be my baseline if I didn't have ADHD making me a literal retard most of the time). Actually, I expect it to get better, as I have been unknowingly kneecapping myself for a very long time with St. John's Wort, which I was using to help with my bipolar depression- it has a very long half life causing it to build up to high levels, which especially considering that I'm not always depressed, lead to my neurotransmitters being overly high which was messing with my head. After a rather unpleasant week of withdrawals from cutting my dose, I'm feeling much more levelheaded. I suspect I'll be seeing more positive results soon.
>>7755329The secret to using nicotine safely is the delivery method. You'll want something that releases nicotine slowly. Fast immediate hits make it more addictive. This means that vaping and pouches are right out. Nicotine pouches release too fast and, well, vapes should be obvious. The best delivery methods are patches, lozenges, and gums. Patches are the premium option, they give you a constant low and slow drip feed through the day, but they're very expensive. Lozenges and gums are far more cost effective, gum slightly more so. Lozenges are reportedly slower-releasing than gum, but gum's release rate can be controlled by how often you chew on it. Gum is also very easy to divide into smaller pieces. Gum tends to be the same price regardless of how much nicotine is in it, meaning that higher-dose gum can be divided to effectively multiply your supply for lower cost.When first starting out, you'll want to go as low as possible- 1mg at a time. You'll very likely feel light headed and floaty at first until your body gets acclimated. Titrate up your dose as necessary. What you want is to have enough to give your brain the boost it needs to get out of inattention/hyperactivity, but not so much that you feel high or buzzed. You don't want to abuse it to push yourself to supranormal levels, you want to aim as much as possible for a stable, "normal" feeling. I've noticed that even after the initial boost, I still tend to feel fairly focused and even for a while afterwards.Another thing I very highly recommend is to pair nicotine with l-theanine. L-theanine goes great with caffeine as well. It does a fantastic job at mitigating the elevated heart rate and blood pressure as well as any jitters, as it raises your levels of GABA, the calming neurotransmitter. The calming effect also helps a lot with focus and impulsivity. It's great stuff.Just be careful, don't push it too hard. Take days off. Definitely don't move on to vapes or cigarettes.
>>7755332Of course, I should give the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor and that you should definitely take this with a grain of salt. Nicotine has been trialed for ADHD as well as some other diseases such as long COVID, and it's been shown that pure nicotine isn't anywhere near as addictive as tobacco, but you still don't want to get addicted or end up smoking. Do some research, and tread VERY, VERY CAREFULLY.
>>7755023>Boggles the mind people are even willing to create more competition for a measly few hundred bucks.because they aren'twatching a course won't give you the skills they've got by drawing a gazillion hours
i get burned out and quit for a week or two if I draw too much
>>7753599I spend 8 hours on the same drawing and it still comes out looking like shit
>>7755338Disabling VPN and coming out of lurking to say that this is very interesting and reflects my own experiences playing with other psychochemistry phenomena. Never tried Nicotine but I can see the relation. The St.Johns Wort bit was fascinating. I 100% believe your testimonial.Sadly I will not be incorporating nicotine into my art because my roomates vape and it'd be way to easy to be onboarded if I was craving the mental clarity.Still, interesting.
>>7755329>>7755332>>7755338Thanks, I'm gonna get addicted now.
>>7754117I'm not that guy but you're on here claiming to be better than the other 90%. And while that's the start of getting better, this is the one case where PYW is a good rebuttal because you gotta prove that, we're not discussing some other guys artwork, or anything like that where PYW is out of pocket. This is on you.>>7753658>>7753818Same for you and same for you.How profitable is WSJ as opposed to monthly releases?How many hours of labor are spent per month on each chapter? Does a weekly author spend 18 hours per day on every page, or do they spend less? Does every 14 hour per page guy do it daily?There's probably an answer here, but neither of you have it statistically so now you gotta nut up or shut up.
>>7755329Quitting smoking was easier than getting off nicotine pouches, currently addicted to those now.
>>7755332>>7755987>>7756006NTA but I do 4mg nicotine gum ONLY when drawing. It does come with some cravings but it also makes you crave drawing as well since you often do that with the drug. If anything you want to have regular gum that looks like the nicotine gum, it tricks your brain when you want to lay off the stuff. Drawing will feel funny without chewing gum when it becomes a habit. Also the nicotine takes a MASSIVE amount of energy from you when you stop chewing so be prepared for that. Often with my hyperactive ass, I have to get past my ego thinking I can do everything without measuring/ using construction and after being humbled in a few drawings I can get to work, the nicotine is great for making me spend that energy fast and conserve the rest of my energy by working efficiently. Finally EVERYONE has something to say when they see you with the nicotine gum because they think you're trying to "Quit smoking" I've never smoked cigs yet my grandmother thinks I'm an addict because I bought 100 pieces- which usually lasts me more than 100 days because I'm not using it all the time.
>>7756063Yeah nic gums pretty chill.Did used to smoke but it made me sick enough that I only did it like a couple times a week at most.A typical cig is like 10 mg nicotine so thats good to keep in mind
Btw these crabs want you to get addicted to nicotine. It’s one of the most evil shit I’ve read on /ic/. You got your books and courses. LEAVE /ic/ AND JUST DRAW.
>>7754758idiot
>>7756271This desu yoIf you want to Pavlov yourself then put snacks where you draw
>>7753904You should get out of your comfort zone and look at academic oil painting in the US. There are great painters in the west. Anime looks like slop to me.
>>7754754Is that your work anon? How are you making a living?
>>7756529>Anime looks like slop to mecognitive resolution issue
>>7756530It's just a rough sketch. I only need 400 to 600 USD per month. That's already a decent amount here. But I have other projects (a game I'm still finishing).
>>7757011nta but any artists/books you felt helped you a lot?
>>7757073In 2022 and 2023, I started copying Yoh Yoshinari a lot. There are several sketches of him on Pinterest, and I tried to make them as similar as possible. I think it helped me get a little bit of his “flow.”
>>7755953St. John's Wort is apparently both a MAOI AND a reuptake inhibitor, mainly for serotonin. What tipped me off that it may have been the culprit was these subtle, persistent feelings of not really feeling my emotions, detachment, feeling as if things weren't really quite real, like nothing really mattered. I was familiar with these feelings because I felt them before- when I wasn't taking two, but SIX 300 mg doses per day, all at once. I did this because it seemed like it was helping- multiple times it took me out of a stupor right around the point I took the sixth dose (I generally took them in twos), so I just started taking that many and it seemed fine. Then at some point I started noticing this feeling of complete emotional detachment- like, say, I would be baby-talking to one of my cats, petting them, and smiling- I adore my cats- but I would just feel nothing, like I was sitting inside myself watching myself perform these actions on autopilot, with this quiet thought of "why am I even doing this?" in the back of my mind. It was deeply unsettling.I suppose I read or remembered a post about how that a lot of mass shooters were on SSRIs, and I wondered if perhaps I were suffering similarly- I had no violent thoughts or impulses but my mind had become strange with constant rumination, chasing thoughts in circles, and that persistent feeling of derealization and emotional detachment. So I quit, started taking methylene blue instead. Was nice actually. Has MAOI properties but also acts as an antioxidant and an electron donor. Perked me up and beat back brain fog and depression very consistently. But I couldn't afford it anymore after I ran out, so I went back to St. J, but only two 300 mg caps a day- one less than the three recommended. But apparently this was still too much when I wasn't *actively* depressed. I'd been taking it for so long- before and after starting low dose lithium, which actually weirdly seemed to heighten my tolerance to it like crazy.
