Is there really no reliable way of opening your mind's eye in order to be able to imagine something, and then draw it like you're looking at a reference in real life? I'm not talking about construction and sketching and erasing and adjusting etc until you find something you're satisfied with, but sharpening your imagination and being able to hold an image still in your mind for a long period of time
lsd
>>7823478its a skill you can practice. dont fall for aphantasia cope
>>7823483Yeah but how? I tried studying fundies extensively, drawing a lot from imagination, drawing a lot from memory, drawing a lot from reference, nothing seems to get me even one step closer to being able to imagine a drawing in my head before putting the pen to paper
>>7823489just imagine a scene as hard as you can. youll get a headache when you do it right. do that a lot. i like doing it and imagining it like 3d software and mapping the planes with lines. rotate things, change camera angles, lighting, etc. not that complicated just imagine hard and you get better at it
>>7823483walk off a cliff
>>7823489You can't. The running gag is that you're explaining the situation wrong and can fix it by thinking differently.I step around it by putting shit on canvas before knowing what goes where and using cut/paste/transform.
>>7823478bobby chiu said he fixed hishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H61AJ0KkkEc
>>7823483It doesn't sound like something that can be learned.>not that complicated just imagine:(
My visualiztion was not clear before but now I can rotate 3d figures in my mind like they are kind of in front of my eyes, and in proper detailI truly think with enough practice that visualization can be trained
>>7823489do you know the feeling of dreaming while still awake? you know, when sleep deprived, or shortly before going to bed and the mind is already running the subconcious kino script sometimes even after waking up and vividly remembering the dream? i'd say try writing a dream diary and put those images to paper in some way, maybe even draw them. or you know when you read a book and you can see the scene in your head? try drawing that. it might get easier after that, it's all a process of putting things to paper for a long time till its learned and easy going.
My issue is that my visual retention is ass, for example I have seen a policeman uniform tens of thousands of times in my life and I'd have great troubles drawing one even 50% correctlyThen I could study them in detail actively trying to remember their features, only to forget it all in weeks, this means even though I know fundies well, I have to restart my visual library from scratch each time I draw something
>>7823478It's just a skill. It's why every once in a while you see a kid in some tv show doing fast math with weird hand gestures. I recommend that you read more (specially books). HOWEVER, just because you're "looking" at something doesn't mean your drawing will end up good, those are different skills.>>7823546Your brain won't be bothered to remember every single small detail, anon. Simplify it as much as you can.
>>7823546As long as you keep it up you will retain itI have narcolepsy so my memory is ass in a pretty debilitating way but as long as I keep on the ball with studies I can remember anatamy pretty wellI think the more naturally you forget everything the more you need to make sure to do better studies every 2 weeks ishIf I don't draw for a month my skill level goes down like a whole grade since my memory is ass so I think a routine and a lot of good emergency refs is the remedy for this
>>7823478i actually became an artist BECAUSE of my aphantasia. i needed to be able to see my thoughts and art is how i do it.you don't need a mind's eye to create. people with aphantasia still have an imagination, it's just concept based rather than sensory based.
>>7823489One method people always tout is Image Streaming
>>7823478Visualization doesn't and will never work like that. Provably.If you could actually visualize something with that level of detail, you have a photographic memory. You can visualize a machine, and it will include every bolt and screw in exact dimensions, and then trace it onto a page. This does not exist, even savants can't do this. You might be able to visualize things you're very familiar with, especially on a technical level, in better detail (arguably this isn't even the case), but as a general skill it's absurd.Regardless, my advice to train visualization: go read some books. Like not drawing books, fiction books. A lot of them.
>>7823478its more muscle memory than "minds eye" desu. you see these artists drawing from "imagination" when in reality theyre drawing from reference that theyve done enough times to commit to muscle memory or regular memory, thats the case 99% of the time, otherwise they are savants who can commit things to memory upon seeing it once. It's like riding a bike, you dont know how to do it until you get on the bike and start peddling.
>>7823478You know even KJG studied reference constantly, right? I really don't get this obsession beginners have with being able to draw butt naked from imagination. I think they feel like if they have to "depend on" reference it means they're not drawing from the heart or not drawing their own ideas or something, but reference is supposed to enhance what you already feel and know, not control everything you draw.I collect tons of reference and inspiration, it's fun. It's how you actually make a drawing that doesn't look like made-up crap and it's a serious part of becoming a serious and well-rounded artist.1. Get a broad idea - draw anime girl in such-and-such pose standing next to a guy in so-and-so pose2. Use Pinterest, Yandex, Google, stock image sites to brainstorm the details, flesh the idea out3. Separate your favorite references into their own folder4. Open them all at once and begin drawing5. If struggling to draw the subject, deep-study the specific parts giving you trouble6. Back and forth with this until you can draw your idea (this will take yours to do at a high level)This is how you get good at drawing. This is how you retain bits and piece over time. Bits and piece, mind. You won't remember the nitty-gritty details - that's where reference comes in to jogs your memory. Gradually over the years you get better and better at retaining details and depend on reference less (but still use it liberally and with gusto).
>>7823717>takes yours to do at a high levelyears* sheesh
>>7823478I don't literally see anything. But I see it. If that makes sense.
>>7823717I agreeadded note on deep-study : find a way to make it [spoiler]fun[/spoiler] for yourself. draw your favorite character, use new brush, etc.
>>7823478>me>the image is constantly changing against my efforts to keep it stableam i schizo
>>7823478can't you just force practice it lmao
Conflating imagination and the "mind's eye" with actual vision is the greatest grief to ever hit the internet. All these poor idiots who think they have """"""aphantasia"""""" because they can't literally project solid images into reality like it's fucking AR cybervision...
>>7823478I'd say I'm one or two, but I can't use it as a reference because the mind wonder so easily, and you lose focus on it.For me, it's more like taking a quick glance at reference before it has to be covered up, and if up lucky, I can look at it a few more times.If I'm drawing well, the image becomes clearer in my mind, as well as on the page, thus making the back and forth between them easier.There are plenty of people who draw with five, so anyone who complains about their bad mental images is just coping.
>>7823478>wayBe born with six eyes and limitless talent.
>>7823829I've deadass had people tell me they can do AR psychoprojection shit, and their excuse for not being able to draw well is: "but hand-eye coordination"
>>7823897It should look like a wonky trace then, no? Some people just love to lie to make themselves seem more special or competent.
For the last time.Aphantasia is fucking PSEUDOSCIENCE. It does not go beyond this one meme picture with the apples.Seriously. These threads do more harm than good. Making people self-conscious about something that's NOT REAL.
>>7823902There are apparently people with actual aphantasia, but they're all actually physically brain damaged and not just quirky autistic npcs who act like they are.
>>7823478I can imagine the apple, the three and even the taste of both things, how superior am i.
>>7823478I don't think people are capable of be honest enough with themselves or others about their mind's eye so it's not worth it to see if you can minmax you mental visualizations. I skimmed the small amount of research and it seemed to indicate a small correlation for spatial recognition as a component of drawing talent and from my experience working memory plays a big role as well which are both more measurable things you can work on.
>>7823905I recall that Ross, the Rubber Ninja guy, says he has it and has no visual imagery in his mind.So I don't think it's all brain damage.
>>7823905Yeah, same with ADHD and Autism. Just using someone's actual disability to be unique and precious
>>7823916It seems to me that it's impossible to make a decent composition without being able to imagine it - unless you follow some "rules".Drawing itself is almost just symbol drawing on steroids or copying. May not require visualization. For the pose perhaps
>>7823930I'm not an amazing artist by any means, and from general discussion on the topic I think my ability to visualize is pretty average, but I find when I'm doing my best when the visualization is vague and more of a guideline. Internalized knowledge and instinct guided by critical analysis tends to do the grunt work.I'm sure there are people who go more on gut than me and others who go pure construction, but I think having all your metal tools sharp and working to cover each other's weaknesses is more important than hyper focusing on one skill.
>>7823478If there was then you wouldn’t see so many pro artists still relying on 3D models and photos for reference.It’s pretty clear that there’s a skill cap on how sharp you can make your mental visualizations unless you were born with extreme talent.
>>7823902https://nautil.us/my-brain-doesnt-picture-things-407444/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/well/mind/aphantasia-mental-images.htmlhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-the-minds-eye-is-blind1/https://archive.is/HmqII
>>7823478I used to imagine whole silly movies that I made up in my head as a kid. In fact, I'd treat it the same way. I'd go into my room, lie down, close my eyes, imagine myself opening a drawer of vhs tapes, pick one and start watching.
I'm between 1 and 2 and I still fuck up on paper. Just draw, faggot.
>>7823717No I'm not a beginner, I've been drawing every day for almost 4 years, the type of drawing I can make when I lock in has improved but every new drawing feels like starting from scratch, if I don't have a lot of references my work will look the same as 5 years ago I feel like there should be some baseline improvement in understanding drawing intuitively so that you can have visual ideas in your head without drawing them, so that even a sketch can show the final idea just in a rough form If drawing was a mountain, I feel like I have to start from the ground up every time, the height I can reach is increasing with practice but it's taking me a lot of time because I can never move my base camp further up than the foothill
>>7823478look up tulpasthe buddhist practice. not the brony larptl;dr is that it's something the made monks with weak faith do, it's a series of exercises that is supposed to enable them to visualize a physical on object in their actual environment so strongly (and feel it, interact with it etc) that it convinces them that the rest of reality must be fake and gay because it's not determinably any more real than the thing they're visualizing
>>7823489do you want an actual practice method to do? this worked for me:>get a reference>oberve it carefully for a minute>look away from the reference then try to sketch down how it looks>your first attempt will be complete dogshit>look back at the reference and notice the parts you got wrong>repeat this process as many times as you need so that when you habe the reference closed and are drawing, you can clearly picture it, and there are no grey areas.start with simple reference things like a pc mouse or fruit, and work up to complex things. this is like sterroids for visualization ability
>>7823995it sounds like you are putting too much pressure on yourself anonI hear you saying that you want to work faster or more efficiently which may be desirable in a work setting. why is it important to you to work like this? is art your main source of income? if not, pump the brakes a bit. creativity is journey and sprinting to the finish line will burn you outevery new drawing IS starting from scratch. you have a blank canvas, and you need to put your ideas together. using references is a sign of wisdom - we cannot always trust our mind's eye. I'm sure you have already developed a degree of muscle memory after 4 years. I wonder if there are aspects of your skill that you are taking for granted
>>7823995>I feel like there should be some baseline improvement in understanding drawing intuitively so that you can have visual ideas in your head without drawing them, so that even a sketch can show the final idea just in a rough formOkay, without a pyw, I can only speculate on what you mean by this. I can roughly *imagine* the idea I want, but if I were to draw an idea without reference, it would be increasingly lower fidelity in proportion with my unfamiliarity with the idea.If I'm familiar with the subject - say, a girl with the body type I usually draw, at a specific angle, in a specific pose - I can draw a HIGHLY SPECIFIC composition that's maybe 60-70% of the way there, but I still won't be satisfied in most cases without consulting reference. Unfamiliar subjects like a car or a dinosaur are a no-go without study.Most people don't realize the tremendous scope of domain-specific knowledge that goes into drawing a single permutation of the hand, for example. They think you download an .obj file of a hand to your brain, and can then "rotate" it any conceivable direction at will. It's ridiculous shit that permabegs say, I've gotten into arguments with them explaining that this isn't how it works. One pose = many references and hours of study. Any time you try to do anything more advanced, you need to study again.What studying does help you do is intuit the unknown and bullshit the unfamiliar parts ("stylization"). You get a sense for what looks good even if it's not "correct," and often this is better than strict adherence to realism. But you still look at reference constantly anyway.
>>7823478
https://youtu.be/1OSWR7xiQLk?si=BudMuWkTxPnF24J4A way to imagine.
