If I start drawing for the first time at 25 as a complete beginner with the intention of making manga, I'm not particularly talented and by this point I fully realize reaching the skill level of the creme of the top, or even just good artists that inspired me in the first place is pretty much nearly impossible, by the time I reach 30 will I be at least able to draw like middling/subpar artists like Lynn Okamoto or Hajime Isayama if I have to set a minimum standard of quality for an amateur work?I know both of these dudes suck ass and I absolutely don't want my art to look like either as an endgame, but at least they managed to get published and had loyal big fanbases during their peaks (well, pretty much only Attack on Titan), and someone who started later in life with a wagie job can't just realistically expect to be able to draw like Hiroaki Samura or Kotha Hirano, let alone masters like Masamune Shirow in just 5 years.
>>7901055You don't need to draw to do manga tho
>>7901057What If I care about quality despite my limits though? Manga is a visual medium, the art has to at least be above /beg/ to be acceptable to audiences and critics alike even if it's not always exactly great
Unless you work really hard on it every day, no, probably not. Meaning maybe, but it's tough. Very tough. Even those "middling/subpar artists" are a much higher level than you might assume. They are not the average or median of skill, even they are well above the average. Comics are extremely difficult, so even getting to their level is a genuine, laudable achievement.I don't say this to scare you off, but to adjust your expectations. If you genuinely want to draw manga, then start. Right away. And don't stop. It'll suck hard, but as long as you're making comics and actively analyzing your drawings and trying to make improvements on the next one then you'll get there eventually. But it takes actual doing. No amount of studying or thinking about it will get you there.t. currently serialized self-taught mangaka
>>7901060>Even those "middling/subpar artists" are a much higher level than you might assumeIs something like pic related really hard to achieve in 5 years though? It's barely a notch above most /mmg/ anons and barely reaches intermediate level if we're being generous
>>7901064Yes, very.>It's barely a notch above most /mmg/ anonsIt's far, far above most /mmg/ anons, including me.>barely reaches intermediate level I'm telling you that what you are considering "intermediate" is not intermediate at all.
>>7901064you probably think it's easy because you are focusing on just the facial aspectyou are not even accounting the amount of hardwork goes in the proportion, background characters, clothes, facial expressions and etcwhat you are describing as a little above beginner is actually much harder than it looks and unless you work extremely hard , you won't be able to achieve itand 5 years imo are enough to reach to that point
>>7901065exactly what i just told him
>>7901064He found a way to make it work. Looks easy to you because you could copy it, but building from the ground up? Those are all essentially assets he created himself, proportioned within reason, iterated upon, and toiled over. He then went on to do the tedious bullshit that is making it into a long running, cohesive story, while moving his assets around in ways that interest the viewer. Even when you have all the tools, it’s still a job, especially if you aren’t particularly fond of the work itself. If you want to do art as a hustle, you would be better off learning to do some form of street art (think caricature, or those spray paint cities on cardboard guys), still, there’s a learning curve and other bullshit that goes into it.
>>7901065>>7901071That elfen lied page is extremely basic, you impressionable begtards, and okamoto's not even the one drawing the background himself. Do you guys even draw?
You people think like ants.
>>7901146It’s not particularly difficult but it’s tedious, and since op hasn’t even put in the effort at all and doesn’t have a clear vision, it will just confuse him. The reason why the aot guy got his start is because he had a clear vision and a willingness to improve over time. Op lacks problem solving skills, that’s obvious. If he had those he would have already coasted along making something based on his vision, using the tools he has access to. They are talking to op, and factoring in his character and vision, not that particular drawing itself, fool.
>>7901055First, you have to give up. You're not going to make it.Done? Now start drawing and stop asking stupid questions. Your goal is to prove me wrong. And if you fail, you'll still have learned to draw some things somewhat well at least.
>>7901146>you impressionable begtards>Do you guys even draw?Yes. I've been drawing comics for 12 years, and know intimately how much effort it takes to get to even that level.I can understand not liking the work, but you are uninformed if you think it looks below average.You're going into a sequioa forest and pointing to one of the less impressive specimen and calling it below average. It's only below average for a sequioa, but even that towers above most trees.
Man what is this nigger going on about. The jap wank here gets unreal. It's a lousy page. Very shoddy.
>>7901172>jap wankIt's got nothing to do with it being japanese.>It's a lousy page. Very shoddy.Relative to what?
>>7901179It's just not very good. I feel like you should be able to say that on the art critique board, but people always wank off pros here no matter what (as long as they're Japanese). It's not stylish, cool, or well drawn at all. It's exceedingly mediocre through and through. I wouldn't bother saving it, and I trust in my taste, so it's not good.Why lead the OP on? Maybe he won't even reach that level, but it doesn't change that "that level" is mediocre, regardless of how successful that artist has been.
>>7901183I asked a straightforward question and you're talking around it. What is it "not very good" relative to?
>>7901184Fucking anything, you brainless idiot? I'm not getting into this game with you. Everybody knows what aspirational comics/manga looks like. This isn't it.
>>7901185So, what? ANY comic? I'd say it looks pretty good compared to this random example I pulled off MPC.Do you still not understand what I'm saying?If you only look at the best of the best, then the worst of the best becomes bad.When you consider all comers, stuff like Okamoto Lynn's work is easily within the top 1%. Because you're ignoring the swathes of ACTUAL bad or mediocre work, and only start counting at the worst of the best.But when you're trying to make comics, you will be making ACTUAL bad work. If you're decent you might manage to climb to making ACTUAL mediocre work. If you're reeeally good, you might even make something comparable to the top 1%, or what you consider to be "mediocre".It's disengenuous frame sometihng within the top 1% as an easily achievable goal. It betrays ignorance.
>>7901187Anon, nobody cares about some random /beg/, that isn't in the conversation to begin with. It's bad compared to almost any other professional or skilled amateur I can think of. Therefore it's at least mediocre.I always encourage beginners to have reasonable expectations and to look a week ahead at most instead of worry about 5 years from now, but that doesn't mean we can't be HONEST with ourselves at the same time. Call a spade a spade.If you wouldn't save it in your inspiration folder under any conceivable circumstances, it's LIKELY not good.
>>7901185Nta but that would be considered “intermediate” or “satisfactory” for the vast majority of people, and would probably take a few years for the average person to learn to consistently draw like that. You overestimate the intelligence/resources of others I think or are only factoring in your intelligence/resources. Does it look like shit? Ya. So does most art. So does most art that makes money. Being able to consistently make shitty looking art is a skill in and of itself, so long as it’s readable and has viewers who cares really? That’s intermediate skill level, regardless of what arbitrary criteria you apply to art.
>>7901191Aim higher. You might not reach it, but for god's sake, at least hype yourself.
>>7901190>Anon, nobody cares about some random /beg/, that isn't in the conversation to begin withThe whole premise of the thread is that OP is a complete beginner. But I understand how one might lose track of that.>I always encourage beginners to have reasonable expectations That's what I'm trying to do here. I'm pointing out the inherent cognitive bias that might lead to unrealistic expectations.You didn't even consider comics made by non-professionals. You started counting at the 1%, but weren't willing to admit it. In fact, you seemed to actually get infuriated at the line of questioning. I'm not trying to epically own the libs here, I'm just trying to point out that you have a skewed perspective of what "mediocre" is. It takes an obscene amount of work just to reach what you're calling mediocre, shoddy work... because in actuality to even be discussed here it had to be of exceptional quality compared to all other comics.
>>7901192Yes but op needs to lower his expectations, he doesn’t even know what he wants, he’s unreasonable so I assume these things will take longer for him. He doesn’t even know where to begin. I’ve seen plenty of people start out with his mindset and it’s not pretty.
>>7901195I am not saying you have to be l33t to make art. I'm saying you should hold yourself to standards. If something is not even interesting to look at, never mind low in skill, you shouldn't feel like it's going to take you decades just to make something as bad as that. Lean on your creativity or ideas, or something.I saved this last year, so I am obviously open to art that is not incredibly technical, but is instead interesting or novel. You can make a comic in this style. I've seen comics made in this style - successful comics.Meanwhile I can't even imagine why I would ever save the page above. That's the problem, not that it is just bad/boring in a vaccum. Art is not just endless suffering for the unskilled. It can be fun, too, almost immediately, if you let it be.
>>7901200So you just dont care for the page? That's fine. I'm not taking any issue with that. All I'm saying is that it's inaccurate to describe it as below average, especially when talking to a complete beginner.It's not at all common to reach a professional level in just 5 years, not unless you're pulling a Dave Rapoza and sacrificing everything to mainline drawing for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. It's healthy to have a goal, I agree, but again, set reasonable expectations. Aim too high without understanding and you're setting yourself up for a crisis in a year when you're still making barely readable crap.
>>7901203No, it just sucks. Don't feel like you are destined to make crap like that for decades. I don't get what is so hard to understand about this.
>>7901204>I don't get what is so hard to understand about thisBecause I've learned all of this the hard way. It took me 10 years to reach a professional level. I'm not the best artist ever, nor am I the fastest learner or the most disciplined. But I've put in the work and I'm willing to bet I've got the most mileage out of almost anybody on /ic/. I'm just trying to pass on what I've learned, even if I'm repeated called retarded or wrong by people who want to believe they know better.
>>7901206You're so tiresome. I don't even think we fundamentally disagree on setting expecations. I just think gassing up lame page like that is so dumb. You need to genuinely believe you're a supehero in order to get good at drawing.
>>7901209It takes effort to engage in a reasonable argument, yes. Much easier to just call someone retarded and talk in circles while not reading anything in their post, like most people on 4chan do. Don't forget to quote a random line to disagree with no matter how silly you sound.
>>7901209>you don’t have to be a superhero to drawCompared to a hobo a successful self made artist is basically a superhero in terms of mental stability and material wealth. All an illusion but that’s life.
>>7901211It's actually possible to be excessively reasonable. And I think too reasonable man on 4chan of all places.
>>7901214>And I think too reasonable manAnd I think I found*going to bed now, goodnight
>>7901214>>7901217Hah, maybe I should consider being more unreasonable then. Sleep well bud.
>>7901055It took ONE four years of study as a NEET to reach One Punch Man webcomic level.
>>7901271And his art years later still doesn't meet the industry standard so it's more than four years.Also I'm a pre-/beg/ so you probably shouldn't listen to me, but I don't think everyone improves at the same rate. Seeing it as some impossible hurdle to overcome is likely coming from negative emotions which will only make you stop drawing.
what if instead of begs making these absurd threads they just drew
>>7901435they might accidentally improve and then they'd have no excuse to be miserable.
>>7901435as we all know, thinking is the highest form of expression. We need more people thinking constantly and less action desu
>>7901435We're thinking logically. Just drawing isn't enough. Drawing 8 hours a day for a month isn't enough. Drawing 500 hours isn't enough. Drawing 5,000 hours isn't enough. Drawing 10,000 hours isn't enough.In order to "just draw" you need to act irrationally and abandon all reason by doing it anyway. Much easier said than done.
>>7901055Your art can be rough or mid or downright shitty. What matters most is the amount of passion and love you put into what you create, as well as being able to tell an emotionally engaging story.>>7901275I consider ONE's art and Tails Gets Trolled as a perfect example of effective composition and effective emotional engagement trumping objectively superior artistry. It is better to have scuffed drawing skills but with superior composition skills and storytelling aptitude than to be a brilliant artist who can't tell a story to save their life (or to be unfortunate to have shit composition)
>>7901522
>>7901522>>7901523Now, as to what you can do to improve your art:>do targeted practice: identify what you suck at and set aside time to study (the bare minimum: a half hour on a daily basis)>immerse yourself in art: read lots of comics, watch a lot of movies, listen to all sorts of music, take in the classics of art history, and read constantly>eat healthy, get plenty of sleep, and be kind to yourselfHere's the process I use for making gains:>draw the subject from memory>collect references from many angles (then do blind contours and gesture studies of them)>draw the outline of the ref, use the envelope method, break down the ref into shapes and forms>take the ref and draw while looking at it>draw from memory again>take out the reference, carefully observe it, then put it away and draw from memory againYou may flip/mirror the reference or draw with your non-dominant hand.
>>7901055>>7901064there's no such thing as "too late" so stop obsessing about timelinesin cycling there's a phrase "it doesn't get easier, you just get faster" I'm a /beg/ but I get the feeling it's the same. the difficulty it takes you to draw turnarounds or a background building now is the same difficulty for a master mangaka, except that they can do 20 pages in the time it takes you to do a panel.so draw now and draw a lot. that's the only thing that matters. There's a million factors that could delay or speed up the timeline it takes for you to attain mastery.
>>7901064I am a similar skill level to this and ive been drawing all my life. You thinking this is easy is dunning Kruger in action. Granted, I have seen rare cases in which people get giga good super quick.
>>7901055no, it's literally impossible to make it as an artist if you aren't inherently talented
>>790105525 is fine that’s when I started to take it more seriously. Best decision of my life. Join a life drawing group as well, make some friends
