Fact checking facts about "russification" of Finland1. Hurr durr Nicholas 2 wanted to turn everyone into Russians.False: He wanted to liberate Finnish people from swedish aristocracy>Nicholas II said that the core of Finland’s problem was that "the Swedes are striving to regain their former dominant position in Finland, misleading a broad section of the people. Against such gentlemen, decisive action had to be taken."2. Hurr durr bobrikov was a dictator who suppressed free speech.Misleading: He targeted swedes and their allies who were advocating for separatism and called Finnish and Russian people mongol barbarians and were closely associated with Germany which posed a security risk>Of the 116 newspapers published between 1899–1905, 46 (39.7%) were temporarily suspended and 26 (22.4%) permanently shut down. The language distribution of all newspapers published was as follows: 78 Finnish-language (67.2%) and 38 Swedish-language (32.8%). Although most of the suspended papers were Finnish, the relative share of Swedish-language papers was greater. Of all Swedish-language papers during this period, 30% were permanently closed and 52.6% suspended temporarily, whereas the corresponding figures for Finnish-language papers were 19.2% and 33.3%. In the early phase of mass closures, attention was directed especially at Swedish-language papers, six of which were shut down in 1900, while only one Finnish-language paper was closed.>In Kotka and Käkisalmi, the closures carried out by the governor-general strengthened the position of the Old Finnish press.>Arbetaren and, outside Helsinki, Länsi-Suomen Työmies, Kansan Lehti, and Itä-Suomen Työmies did not receive a single warning from Bobrikov throughout the entire period, nor were they ever shut down. It appears that political censorship from Russia had little effect on the workers’ press.
3. Hurr durr muh political repression, muh exiles to SiberiaMisleading: The Finnish government couldn't carry out it's duties of protecting it's citizens and was notorious for hiding terrorists like Lenin and letting murderers go free. Bobrikov had to manually exile criminals because it was the only option left. For example a governor of Vyborg was shot and the assassin got only 3 years in prison and his co-conspirators got away with fine (https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matti_Reinikka)4. Hurr durr Bobirkov tried to force everyone to speak RussianFalse: He encouraged his subordinates learn Finnish and significantly improved the position of Finnish language. This myth propably refers to the 1900 manifesto which mandated use of Russian in governors office because after his letters were leaked and he was facing insubordination he brought in his own people who didn't know swedish but were legally required to speak it. This law was made for them and didn't affect anyone in any way. All senators had to do was hire a translator so that Bobrikov could understand them. All in all it was not that important in the context of all his actions. Before Bobrikov swedish was the only official language and he uplifted Finnish language by giving it an official status which is a much more important policy>Swedish-speaking senators who resigned, were dismissed, or died were replaced by Suometar (pro-Finnish) men, with the result that the senate gradually became more Finnish. A key achievement was the 1902 Language Decree, which, after years of struggle, finally made Finnish formally equal to Swedish as an official language.
5. Hurr durr he was a dicktatorTrue: While it's true it's important to understand that not all dictatorships are bad and not all democracies are good. Bobrikov had to have signifcant powers in order to uproot swedish aristocracy which occupied Finland for over 700 years. Prior to Bobrikov only 30% could vote and the senate and diet was almost exclusively swedish and couldn't represent the majority of Finnish speakers in any way. Bobrikov used his powers to represent those who were excluded from the decision-making like finnish-speaking workers and peasants. Bobrikov used 2 million marks to acquire land for the landless population and the committee he established distributed 147,000 hectares of land to those without land. It also should be noted that Bobrikov wanted to democratize the system and expand voting rights after he had implemented his reforms but was murdered by a swedish aristocrat before he could do it.
>>214620870100 % of Nikolai II supporters in Finland were ethnic Swedes.This is because there was one Nikolai II supporter called Carl Gustav Mannerheim and he was a Swede. 1 out of 1 = 100 %Dumb try Ivan. Out of all the people you could defend you decide to defend Nikolai II and Bobrikoff, the two people from that era are universally hated by every ethnic Finnish political faction.
>>214622787The leader of the largest Finnish party Yrjö-Koskinen supported Bobrikov and was harassed by swedes who dragged him into court and vandalized his house. The only people opposing Nicholas 2 were the swedish party and young finns (swedish lapdgos)
>>214620870That's a lot of words bro. All i know is that i would plap the fuck out of these two twinks if they were real. I would annihilate both their bussies so hard and so thoroughly no trace would be left after I'm done with them :33333
>>214623380"Yrjö-Koskinen" = Georg Zacharias ForsmanYour example of a "Finn" supporting Nikolai II is an ethnic Swede who learned Finnish as a foreign language and changed his name to Finnish when he was in his 50s. He was a big figure in my home town of Hämeenkyrö BTW, he loathed Russia and Russians but believed there was no chance for seperatism and argued for appeasement as the better way to keep Russians from pushing their culture and government on Finland.When the abdication of Tsar was announced the first thing that happened in this country is that mobs of Finns rushed to tear every picture of Nikolai II to pieces. When the execution of the royal family was announced the only person who gave a shit was Mannerheim who knew them in person, the rest of Finland celebrated at least the murder of Nikolai and the Red Guard definitely celebrated the rape and murder of the daughters too.
>>214624049>Your example of a "Finn" supporting Nikolai II is an ethnic SwedeBecause back then swedes were the only ones allowed into positions of power. Both Snellman and Yrjö-Koskinen were swedes but nevertheless they advocated for national consciousness and monolingual Finland and against swedish elites and their cocksuckers. >he loathed Russia and RussiansSource?>believed there was no chance for seperatism and argued for appeasement as the better way to keep Russians from pushing their culture and government on FinlandThat's the libshit swedish interpretation. Actually he cared more about swedes pushing their culture and government onto finns for over 700 years and thought that it was a good think that Russians were finally doing something about it because it would make Finns stop sucking swedish cock. >When the abdication of Tsar was announced the first thing that happened in this country is that mobs of Finns rushed to tear every picture of Nikolai II to piecesI'm well aware of the spineless cocksucking nature of my countrymen. Your point being?
>>214624675>>he loathed Russia and Russians>Source?Here's how he describes Russia:https://jkpaasikivi.fi/book/paasikiven-muistelmia-sortovuosilta-edellinen-osa/iii-yrjo-koskinen-ja-suomen-venajan-kysymys/So Russians are chauvinists, aggressors, trying to russify us etc and Nikolai II has taken Russian ethnic and cultural chauvinists as advisors on Finland but we don't have the power to fight against them. Therefore we have to partially surrender some autonomy away in the hopes that it will be good enough for the Tsar so that he stops demanding more russification.He was not a supporter of Nikolai II and he lamented the attempted forced russification of Finnish people under his rule. He was just a pessimist who believed the only chance to avoid to make the Tsar back away from his horrible full list of demands was to surrender in some.>I'm well aware of the spineless cocksucking nature of my countrymen. Your point being?Why on earth are you bothering to defend Nikolai II when you could try to defend basically anyone else from Alexander I-III or Lenin or Stalin or Putin or Rurik or..? Even Mannerheim told us afterwards that "no one in Finland believes me but Nikolai was a nice guy in person, even if not competent as ruler".Obviously you have some contrarian obsession but why are you on an English forum pretending that your strange contrarian posture is some common Finnish thing? Lenin and Stalin had lots of fans among ethnic Finns so if you want to present some view of "Russia just wants to protect Finns from Germanic oppressors" why don't you defend the commies?Why bother with this ridiculous idea that Nikolai II and his team of Russian ethnic chauvinists were friends of Finns?
>>214625447Note BTW his argument in favor of Finnish is not out of love for Finns but because he thought the Russians would maybe back off if the language of the Grand Duchy was changed from Swedish to Finnish.Sweden was the old enemy of Russia, Swedish language connects to many major European languages easily while Finnish has no tie to the West. So the hope was the Russians would back off from trying to push Russian and would be satisfied with Finnish.PS. this guy was in the same party with my great-great-grandpa from the same town, I think I know him better....
TL;DR
>>214625447>https://jkpaasikiviThat's paasikivi. He's a snake and a liar who destroyed his party and bend over to suck swedish cock. He worshipped svecoman nazis and mandatory swedish and forbid karelian refugees from settling into swedish territories to keep them ethnically pure. He's not a reliable narrator when it comes to describing Yrjö-Koskinen. D.W Åkerman in his diaries tells how he purged Finnish Party from fennomans like him. In his last letter before his death Yrjö-Koskinen warned against any collaboration with vikings and after his death what did Paasikivi do? Destroy his party and buddy up with swedes. >more russificationThere wasn't any "russification". I've debunked it in OP and you have no rights to use that word again until you can prove that it's valid.>Why on earth are you bothering to defend Nikolai IIBecause I have a soul >Lenin and Stalin had lots of fans among ethnic Finns so if you want to present some view of "Russia just wants to protect Finns from Germanic oppressors" why don't you defend the commies?Because it's a lie and it's harder to defend lies than it is to defend the truth. Also commies and swedes were best buddies and have the same history (muh tsar was ebil, muh russification hurr durr) so I can see why you think it's easier. >Why bother with this ridiculous idea If it's so ridiculous then prove me wrong. What's stopping you? >Russian ethnic chauvinistsDid Russians ever practice eugenics and say that Finns were an inferior race? No? Oh wait, it was your swedes who are currently sitting in the government deciding where you taxes go and which laws you should obey
>>214625695Obviously Russians don't like that their autonomy is not even being governed by the native population but by the foreign colonial elite that they used to go to war with and that is spreading it's propaganda and agitating people against Russia. Therefore Finns and Russians have shared national interests and there's nothing wrong in collaborating towards a common goal. I wonder why do you thought it's some sort of gotcha counter argument >is not out of loveIt literally doesn't matter. If a thing is objectively good then it doesn't matter what the motivations were. If a moustache twirling villain saves a cat then I wouldn't cry about "hurr durr you saved the cat for the wrong reasons!!!!" because it doesn't matter and the cat is still saved
>>214620870in fact I thought you'll talk about more recent events but it goes way back
>>214626022>That's paasikivi. No, it's Yrjö-Koskinen and his writings, it just happens to be on a website named after Paasikivi. It's there to explain the opposition to Paasikivi like Y-K.>There wasn't any "russification". I've debunked it in OP and you have no rights to use that word again until you can prove that it's valid.You appealed to Yrjö-Koskinen as an authority. I pointed out to you that Yrjö-Koskinen's politics begins with his desire to avoid russification policies. Even your own authority reasons this way:a) The Russians want to cancel Finland's autonomy and push cultural russification on Finland, demanding that Russian be made the government language instead of Swedish because Swedish is a threatening connection to Sweden, Germany and England, potential enemies of Russia.b) Therefore we should propose instead as a compromise that the language of the Grand Duchy be switch to Finnish, an obscure language that is not connected to Russia's potential enemies.c) Compromise is hopefully reached, Finland gives up Swedish and connections to the Germanic countries, Russia gives up demands of cultural and linguistic russification.That is the ideology of Yrjö-Koskinen and his faction (which my ethnic Finnish great-great-grandpa supported as a member of the same party and personal friend of Y-K). The whole ideology of fennomania and promoting Finnish language and culture starts from the premise that the Russians want to russify Finland and it is about making a counter-offer and hopefully avoid russification.Even your own guru figure starts his ideology from the fact that the Russians were pushing russification (long before Nikolai II in fact, he just accelerated it). His idea of partial surrender by reducing Swedish and ties to Germanic countries was to convince the Russians to back off from russification.
>>214626563>No, it's Yrjö-Koskinen and his writingsNo it's Paasikivi's writing where he quotes Koskinen. His writings goal is to "redeem" Koskinen in the face of his liberal critics and justify his usurpation of power and other heinous actions. He's not really a reliable narrator and should be taken with a grain of salt >a) push cultural russification on FinlandThat never happened and was never goal of any Russians. Why are you lying again? Your other premises fall flat and are based on your own assumptions and nothing Koskinen actually wrote.>The whole ideology of fennomania and promoting Finnish language and culture starts from the premise that the Russians want to russify Finland and it is about making a counter-offer and hopefully avoid russification.That's a far stretch and you haven't provided any sources to support them. Fennomania started far before any "russification" and it's premise is that people need to be united in mind and language because it's impossible to develop into a proper nation when the country is divided and the small minority holds all the keys. You have an incredibly weird assumption that there were no one who genuinely wanted to see Finns be free and it was just a compromise to stop hecking russians and everyone loved sucking swedish cock. If you talk to anyone irl people fucking despise mandatory swedish and there's a huge unspoken majority of people not represent in any way in politics or media
>>214627053https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Manifestoand especiallyhttps://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/KielimanifestiThe demands by the Russians:The governor-generals office will switch to using Russian only. Finland's passport and border guards will switch to using Russian only. Senate financial decisions (ie budget of Finland) will be made in Russian only.In 1903 it was added that provincial governments must communicate with the Senate only in Russian ie. effectively Russian is made the only state language with the use of Swedish and Finnish both forbidden for government purposes outside of maybe some small town local government (with Bobrikov promising russification of even local small town government, police and other authorities later)."No russification" yeah sure. Of course this led to a total collapse of Russian authority in Finland where the government and authorities were now supposed to operate in a language that almost nobody could even speak. Lenin's gang found it easy to operate in Finland and he found ethnic Finns overwhelmingly eager to either passively or actively support a revolution.Nikolai II had no supporters among ethnic Finns. None.
>>214627783I already debunked it here>>214620879
>>214627783>>214627904No you didn't. You keep writing your fantasy about how Bobrikov supposedly supported the Finnish language with his actions without ever explaining why literally the entire ethnic Finnish population has never heard of this happening and why all the government documentation from Bobrikov is just a series of dictates to ban Swedish and Finnish and use Russian only in government office A, B, C, D, E...The question again is why? If you wanted to paint Russia as a friend of oppressed Finns against Germanic oppressors you can just go with Lenin or Stalin who made that promise and claim and a lot of Finns believed it and joined their movement. There was no ethnic Finnish support for Nikolai II or Bobrikoff at all as they only ever gave us russification policies.
>>214628277>why literally the entire ethnic Finnish population has never heard of this happening and why all the government documentation from Bobrikov is just a series of dictates to ban Swedish and Finnish and use Russian only in government office A, B, C, D, E...https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/history_is_written_by_the_victors>There was no ethnic Finnish support for Nikolai II or Bobrikoff at all Here's what newspaper from 1902 wrote > „Mitähän ne waltiopäiwätkin nyt toimittawat. Nistä „laillisista oloista“ ne niin suurta melua pitäwät, sekin Huoponen siellä. Parempi olisi, että olot pysyisiwät tällään, sillä jos entiset laillset olot taasen palautetaan, niin sil' ne ruossi herrat taas röykistellöt“. 2" nyt on olt' nii hywä olla näihe nykyisii herroi kans. Ko se suur' herra sillo tois' kesirki anto kahiste kättä Sikojaa Matille, ko hää waa tek mitä se tahto, waikk' sei olikaa lai mulka, ni mitäs sil' ol' wälli. Paremp' ois waa ko tämmöset ajat kestäst, ni wangisist ne tuost muon tohtori pojaki, kun se „perkeleen roisto“ taas on uskaltant tulla tännee kansaa willisemmää There were also countless attempts at making counter-petitions in support of Bobrikov but anyone who supported him was assaulted or persecuted by the police. Even Yrjö-Koskinen didn't escape that fate and he had money to protect himself while most of the Bobrikovs support base was extremely poor. >all as they only ever gave us russification policies.Bobrikov turned Finnish into an official language. Is that "russification" for you?
>>214628962>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/history_is_written_by_the_victorsWe are talking about the orders written by Nikolai II, Bobrikov and their staff which, again, are a series of documents demanding Russian only as an official language.The Swedes have had no power to forge Russian government documents that were stored in St Petersburg and these days are stored in Moscow archives.>Here's what newspaper from 1902 wrote> „Mitähän ne This is rambling about Swedes ("ruossis") in russified east peasant dialect with no words of support at all given to Nikolai II. "Ruossis" suggests that the writer is some Orthodox Karelian from the other side of the border ie basically a Russian.You have such a hatred of Swedes that to you banning both Swedish and Finnish and imposing a Russian-only policy is a victory because it hurts Swedes. But why do you insist that a Russian-only policy is some support for Finnish?>here were also countless attempts at making counter-petitions in support of Bobrikov but anyone who supported him was assaulted or persecuted by the police.During russification Bobrikov canceled the old police and attempted to install a Russian police force. They had no respect from the population at all and were seen as tools of Bobrikov. Obviously Bobrikov's police were not "assaulting supporters of Bobrikov" which didn't even exist to be assaulted.>Bobrikov turned Finnish into an official language. Is that "russification" for you?Again, Bobrikov banned both Swedish and Finnish as an official language. He removed all Finnish from official use, governed in Russian only and demanded that every official in the country must learn Russian by 1905 after which Finland will be governed only in Russian with Russian as the only official language.Yes that is russification.
>>214630886>demanding Russian only as an official languageThat's not true. Before Bobrikov swedish was the only official language. Bobrikov elevated both Finnish and Russian which you're butthurt about because you are a swede who hates both. >with no words of support at all given to Nikolai II.Are you genuinely stupid? It literally says that times haven't been any better and it would be great if they stayed that way, referring to Bobrikov's """russification""". >"Ruossis" suggests that the writer is some Orthodox Karelian from the other side of the border ie basically a Russian.No true scotsman fallacy. I can do the same and call every l*theran basically a swede and not a real Finn. >banning FinnishFinnish was banned for most of Finland's history and it received legal status only during Bobrikov's reign. >During russification Bobrikov canceled the old police and attempted to install a Russian police forceIt's a shame that he only "attempted". Perhaps if he did it then a lot of bad things wouldn't have happened to both Finland and Russia. >Obviously Bobrikov's police You just said that he ATTEMPTED to. Meaning it didn't actually happened. Swedes had too much control over government and Bobrikov was on the defensive during the whole "russification" period. >which didn't even exist to be assaultedYeah they assaulted random people of Russian and Karelian descent "laukkuryssät" going as far as to murdering them. >Again, Bobrikov banned both Swedish and Finnish as an official languageYou're unironically braindead. You're equating the demand for 1% of bueraucrats to know the language of the country they're living in with the language that is demanded from 99% to know as is case with swedish.
>>214631693>That's not true. Before Bobrikov swedish was the only official language. Bobrikov elevated both Finnish and Russian which you're butthurt about because you are a swede who hates both.Again, Bobrikoff made Russian the only official language. There was no elevation of Finnish until Bobrikoff was shot by our celebrated national hero Schauman, the country went into rebellion, there was the revolution of 1905 that affected all of Russia and only then political reforms favored Finnish - and only briefly.>>"Ruossis" suggests that the writer is some Orthodox Karelian from the other side of the border ie basically a Russian.>No true scotsman fallacy. I can do the same and call every l*theran basically a swede and not a real Finn.AHAHA there we see the truth, I caught you with the "ruossis". Of course your people are fine with forced russification because you are Russians. You should fuck off back to Russia so that you can get the forced russification that your people already enjoyed over there as your language was wiped out.Your people make up like 0.1 % of the population as paper citizens. Why do you pretend that your viewpoints are supposedly some widely represented Finnish perspective? You know they are not.It's like some Russian converted to Mormonism and then wanted us to believe that his Mormon opinions somehow represent a repressed secret Russian mainstream.>Yeah they assaulted random people of Russian and Karelian descent "laukkuryssät" going as far as to murdering them.So ethnic Russians and russified Orthodox collaborationists were trying to gather petitions to support the forced russification of the Finnish population. Your people were not welcome in Finland then and your people are not welcome in Finland today. You never will be.
>>214632729>Again, Bobrikoff made Russian the only official languageYou're unironically braindead if you hope to win an argument with using outright lies https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/KielireskriptiAt least I do research and try to argue in good faith. You obviously can't do that and are here to ragebait and engage in low IQ shitflinging which isn't what I'm looking for in life
>>214632868>https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielireskripti...document by Alexander II from 1863. You are defending Bobrikoff who was appointed by Nikolai II in 1898! You well know that Alexander II is well liked by ethnic Finns as someone who improved the status of Finnish.He is the complete opposite of Bobrikoff and Nikolai II who totally destroyed all the loyalty that the Romanovs had built with ethnic Finns since Alexander I & II.And by the way, even though Alexander II improved the status of Finnish, this document only allowed the use of Finnish:"Määräaikaa pidennettiin vielä toiset 20 vuotta, ja uudistus vietiin kokonaisuudessaan läpi vasta vuonna 1902. Samalla myös venäjän kieli sai ruotsin kanssa tasaveroisen aseman hallintokielenä Suomessa."Even your own referral states that Russian was promoted into equal status with Swedish as an official language in 1902. Finnish did not enjoy this equal status and obviously wasn't going to enjoy it as Nikolai II and Bobrikoff were in charge at this point. They then proceeded to cancel the use of Swedish a bit later, leaving Russian as the only government language and turning the entire population against Russia.
>>214633267Give me a document saying that Bobrikov cancelled the law he signed in 1902 and made Russian the only official language. I'll wait
Fascinating thread. Gonna need a Swedish expert's input on this discussion.
>>214634087It's the first time I see a Finn arguing with that one Finn.Haven't read their discussion, but it looks very interesting.
>>214633716Even the wiki that you previously linked linked to Bobrikoff's and Nikolai II's language manifesto:https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/KielimanifestiAgain, Bobrikoff's policy and the orders of Tsar Nikolai II stipulate the replacement of Swedish by Russian and using Russian as the only language in government.The Diet of Finland in 1897 passed a resolution to make the Finnish language equal to Swedish in government use. General-governor Gontšarov rejected this. Then as the same issue was passed to the next general-governor Bobrikoff he also rejected this and went further by announcing his plans of using only Russian at all levels of government. Nikolai II and his general-governors consistently rejected the use of Finnish as a government language until they were forced to surrender to reforms in panic after the unrest of 1905.PS. During the threat of atheist Bolshevism Orthodoxes and Finns have had peaceful relations. The threat of atheist Bolshevism is gone and if Finns see Orthodoxes defending Bobrikoff or Nikolai II the relations will turn bad again.You can go to Russia where you can speak Russian and live in an Orthodox country.
>>214634149>It's the first time I see a Finn arguing with that one Finn.OP doesn't even speak Finnish, he's not a Finn.
>>214634302>According to the manifesto, Russian was to be adopted as the only language for handling matters in the Governor-General’s office, as well as in the State Secretary’s office and the Finnish Passport Office operating in St. Petersburg, starting on 1 October 1900. In the Senate’s Economic Department, documents sent to the Governor-General were to be in Russian from 1 October 1900, and all official business, with a few minor exceptions, was to be conducted in Russian starting 1 October 1903. Senators were allowed to present oral explanations in Finnish and Swedish in Senate sessions until 1908, after which this would no longer be permitted. Central offices and provincial governments were to conduct business with the Senate and the Governor-General exclusively in Russian starting 1 October 1905, although with ordinary citizens they were still required to use Finnish and Swedish. Heads of offices were responsible for ensuring that, by the end of the transition period, their staff would know Russian.You're genuinely retarded. It's literally the same as virkamiesruotsi nowadays. There's nothing signifying "plans of using only Russian at all levels of government". You literally invented it in your retarded head. He never abolished Finnish or Swedish as official languages because he was the one who gave Finns these rights in the first place. I'm once again asking you to provide a legitimate source to your bullshit because a wikipedia page isn't cutting it
>>214634550>doesn't even speak Finnish, he's not a FinnCool it with the anti-Fennoswede remarks. This was a nice respectful thread until your egregious racism.
>>214620870Not reading allat. Rest in piss bozo lol
>>214634814Wait no I apologize, I'm wrong. It's not like virkasmiesruotsi because virkasmiesruotsi demands EVERYONE know how to speak swedish while this law only concerned senators and people in St.Petersburg office which are like 100 people. This is le hecking russification everyone.
Even if I admit that I don't agree with it it shouldn't mean that he didn't do anything good or that it was a greater threat than swedish aristocracy skullfucking finns for over 700+ years and wiping out it's culture and religion and excluding them from government and witholding all the money and power
>>214634814Yeah totally, it would not be russification if local Finnish governments were only allowed to communicate with the government in Helsinki in Russian. Also of course the Senate and other government institutions in Helsinki should only be allowed to have discussions about the budget in Russian, that would be a great friendly act towards the use of Finnish in government.Completely the same situation that we have today when our government officials only speak Russian to each other, all our parliament debates over the budget are required to be held only in Russian but then in the end the decisions are translated to Finnish like our great friends Bobrikoff & Nikolai II wanted.>because he was the one who gave Finns these rights in the first place.Again where the fuck do you get this idea, you keep demanding sources but you never give any source for where the fuck do you even get this idea that Bobrikoff somehow supported Finnish.The only thing you linked was a law by Alexander II which was written decades before Bobrikoff and Nikolai II were in power but took 40 years to fully implement. Bobrikoff didn't come up with that, the government was just so slow and dysfunctional that it took so long to fully implement Alexander II's orders.This BTW was another one of Finland's frustrations with Russia, we were used to Germanic efficiency while everything took a fucking half century to implement in Russia.Why the fuck do you think Finns celebrated Bobrikoffs murder? Why do you think half the adult population signed petitions against him? Finns were OK with Russia until Bobrikoff and Nikolai II but then some Swedes did a magic trick on us? The revolt had nothing to do with Bobrikoff and Nikolai II just being hostile to us and incompetent rulers on top of that?
>>214635459>local Finnish governments were only allowed to communicate with the government in Helsinki in RussianSource? >The only thing you linked was a law by Alexander II which was written decades before Bobrikoff and Nikolai II were in power but took 40 years to fully implement. Bobrikoff didn't come up with that, the government was just so slow and dysfunctional that it took so long to fully implement Alexander II's orders.>This BTW was another one of Finland's frustrations with Russia, we were used to Germanic efficiency while everything took a fucking half century to implement in Russia.Are you a moron? It was delayed because swedes in power didn't want it passed. Bobrikov was the one who signed it into effect and therefore it's his accomplishment since he didn't care about what swedes thought about it.>where the fuck do you even get this idea that Bobrikoff somehow supported FinnishI linked it like 4 times already. You should read more. >Why do you think half the adult population signed petitions against himOut of 1000 those who signed only 10 really knew what the petition was all about. Government officials told that if you don't sign it a Russian will come to your house and force you to convert to orthodoxy. There was also clear class divide because those demanding to sign the petition were in the position of power (popes, bosses, officials, etc) and you couldn't refuse them that easily. Still many workers refused to do so because not everyone likes sucking swedish dick like you
>>214620870>False: He wanted to liberate Finnish people from swedish aristocracyMan who runs a country of slaves wants to spread freedom.
>>214631693do you think that orthodoxy is more natural to finnic soul?>>214632729Karelians are autosomally more close to some finns than they are to other non swedish speaking finns. Karelians are 100% finnic genetically
>>214637414Orthodox' were more tolerant of local cultures and traditions and therefore orthodox finns retained closer connection their ancestors. That's why during rise of nationalism many Finns went to Russia to learn about their culture since swedes have literally destroyed everything in Finland>Traditions of Kalevalaic poetry, and the associated institution of the tietäjä, were aggressively opposed in Lutheran early modern Sweden (which included modern Finland), but became integrated into Russian Orthodox culture in Karelia and Ingria, partly assimilating to and partly thriving alongside Christian culture.[6]
>>214635858>Source?It says so in the text you quoted!>Out of 1000 those who signed only 10 really knew what the petition was all about. Over half a million people signed the petition asking Nikolai II to cancel the russification policies of Bobrikoff:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_PetitionA third of the adult population in Finland signed this when it had to be arranged in secret at lightning speed with Bobrikoff and the Russian authorities trying to stop it from happening. The Tsar refused to even receive the petition. This insult was the great turning point in this country as just about everyone joined some resistance or revolutionary movement.The almost completely ethnic Finnish Red Guards were already able to field tens of thousands of soldiers in the attempted revolution of 1905, impressing Lenin and convincing him that the Finns are the most revolutionary and anti-Tsarist people in the empire.Finland was quietly loyal to Russia for almost a century and then Bobrikoff and Nikolai II happened. First there were petitions and pleas, then there was violence, then the entire country went on strike, then there were competing rebel militias with tens of thousands of soldiers ready to fight against the Tsar and the whole thing culminated in mass slaughter in 1917-1918 with the sides turning on each other after the Tsar was gone.This guy wants to write an alternative history in which Bobrikoff and Nikolai II were really our friends and some Swedes just somehow tricked us into not recognizing how amazingly friendly the Tsar is. Poor Nikolai II, he refused to talk to us so we never noticed how much he loved us!
>>214637568do finns feel any connection with veps, mordvins and mari peoples? Autosomally you arent actually far away from Erzya people. You are closer to them than to Ostrobothia Swedes and even Estonians autosomally
>>214620870>>214620879>>214620906TSAAAAAAAR
>>214637666Not really. I don't think anyone knows about them anything. 700+ years of swedification have erased any trace of identity finnish people once had and turned them into rootless golems
>>214637760lots of authors on ugro finnic stuff about those remote peoples are finnish tho. Althugh its authists only. I find it strange when i see huge amount of pamperring to swedes finns have historically done. There shouldnt be official swedish in modern finland nowdays
>>214637589>It says so in the text you quoted!Um, no? You're too low IQ for me to engage with and I feel like I can't extract any new information from you any longer. I've heard all of these arguments before and I can easily debunk them. I wish I could talk with smarter people about this but I don't know where to find them
>>214637816Most of it is driven not by love towards Finnic people but hate towards Russia. They're only interested in these nations as long as it serves their narrative. They like to talk about Ingria but never mention Forest Finns for a reason. >There shouldnt be official swedish in modern finland nowdaysThere are a lot of things that shouldn't exist. Mandatory swedish is just the tip of the iceberg.
>>214637414A big bunch of Finns are Karelians - Lutheran Karelians. Karelians are the tribe that got split along the religious line. Orthodox Karelians are not Finns but they can easily become Finns if they convert.The friendly relations between Lutherans and Orthodoxes in Finland have been a historical anomaly during the era when we had militant atheist Bolshevism next door. They might end and if they do Orthodoxes will again just be considered Russians.>>214637568The border region was unusual because the Lutheran side had preserved the language very well because the religion demanded reading the Bible in native tongue while Lutheranism was totally destructive of pagan culture. The Orthodox side had retained more of the pagan culture but most Orthodox Finnic tribes lost their language. In the border region you had these tendencies side by side so the language preservation of Lutheranism and culture preservation of Orthodoxy combined.It's a cool niche thing but in the end pagan stuff is stupid illiterate magical thinking and there's a reason it disappeared from everywhere except the hillbilly remote borderland. We lost to the Swedes and Russians because we failed to move on from pagan crap while they picked up literate religion and Greco-Roman advancements with it."The evil Swedes destroyed our culture and now we can't believe that a duck egg gave birth to the world anymore!" If you want to believe that the world came out of a duck egg you can still do that in Finland and no Swedish crusader death squad is going to show up to stop you. But no one does it because it was honestly all pretty stupid and primitive.
>>214637974your languages are muutually intelligible. Orthodox Karelians cluster with Finns genetically
>>214637974>Orthodox Karelians are not FinnsAll Baltic-Finnics are ancient Eesti, The national epic Kalevala comes from Orthodox Karelians in the middle of nowhere because they retained old beliefs better. They are not around much anymore, their Orthodoxy was their church language while Finns and Estonians were Protestants.
>>214638072i think that Karelians and Finns have more Siberian admixture than Eesti due to mixing with Sami they assimilated when they crossed gulf of finland. Samis are like 25% Siberian while Karelians are 7.4% while Finns are 5.8%. Estonians have no autosomal siberian ancestry no more
>>214638023Not entirely. My grandpa was from the territories we lost in WWII (Lutheran Karelian from between Ladoga and the Baltic) and he was picked to work for the occupation government in Petrozavodsk when we occupied it because he could talk to local Karelians and Vepsians pretty easily.My other grandpa was also in Petrozavodsk because of a special mission but he was from the West and couldn't understand the locals.Genetics doesn't matter in these cases of course, surely you know that Serbs and Croats are genetically the same but it doesn't make them best friends.
>>214638144idk they are textbook the same. I saw alot of Finnish comment telling they can fully understand them and that they dont like russian accect with it. People from Zagreb cant talk to people living 20 km northern nor can northerners understand other northern croats well. In serbian we have similar case with Vranje people. I couldnt speak to vranje kids as a kidhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_intelligibility#List_of_mutually_intelligible_languages
>>214638214textbook mutually intelligible**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQQJ6XkAwxM
>>214638214Eastern Finns maybe. We call a part of eastern Finnish "the Karelian dialect" and that's the same as Karelian language except with less Russian loanwords and more Latin/Germanic loanwords.Karelian dialect is almost gone though since most people who spoke it were in the territories lost in WWII. My grandpa spoke it but his kids started speaking the western dialect from the town where he moved after WWII.>>214638236My grandpa would understand this easily if he was still alive. I can understand most of it but not all since I am western and bad at eastern dialects.
>>214620870Vpn off HIVan
>>214638236sounds very Russian
>>214638811She speaks with a heavy Russian accent. Finno-Ugric languages in Russia were killed off by the Soviets who put all the kids into Russian only schools. There's been some revival but the people learn their own language after learning Russian so they speak their original language as a second language with a Russian accent.
