How different would the world be if Indigenous Americans hadn't been decimated by disease when the Spanish arrived?
There's no way Mexico had a population only double of Finland's in 1700
>>215809889It's true. Mexico's population was always very low until fairly recently after the population collapse of Mesoamerica
>>215809737>hadn't been decimated by disease when the Spanish arrivedSimply impossible.The only way for this to happen is if the vikings had managed to stay for longer and the plague spread all across america before the spanish arrived.
>>215809737Like SEA but maybe more Christian.
>>215809737Ridiculous lie. Nobody know the population that existed there.It is absolutely impossible that Mexico had like 30-40 million people there (20-23 million deaths as you say). If the deaths were massive there should be lots of graves with their remains like there were graves in Europe with the bubonic plague. And proportionally more Spaniards died of tropical diseases than amerindians from european diseases.And impliying that someone is responsable for the death of others because they have a virus would mean that homosexuals have killed 30 million people because they spread AIDS.
>>215809889it's true, the population was in the 10s of millions. Like the natives are known for human sacrifice but that was a small part of the religion, its just that there were so many people there it ends up being a lot.
>>215809737Medieval RPG world. Feudalism inevitably still dies because of the Black Death depopulation crisis but absolutism never gets too strong and capitalism never takes over.
>>215810294The Spanish at the time did horrible things, you aren't those people, you don't need to defend them.
>>215810430Sounds comfy
what the fuck was cocoliztli? how did it kill more people than smallpox?
>>215810430>>215810604In Europe the early modern period would be just a retry of the high middle ages (or low middle ages in Romance language historiography) with much more free people. The nobility is never recovering its power again after the crisis of the late middle ages. Monarchs won't be able to consolidade absolute power. No big nation states. Merchants will never rise beyond simple salesmen trading in market towns. The situation should be similar in most of Asia outside of the gunpowder empires and China. The Americas would be like pre-columbian history, with agricultural city state civilizations rising and falling to small empires, like the ancient near east, with this cycle repeating until they can make some stronger llamas able to work like horses and figure out iron work
>>215810699It's thought to be salmonella
>>215810829>Americas would be like pre-columbian history, with agricultural city state civilizations rising and falling to small empiresIf the population doesn't collapse then trade would eventually be established with Eurasia, I think. Spanish monkeys and Portuguese would likely have managed to retain some small islands in the Caribbean and some ports in the mainland like in Africa and knowledge of the Americans would have arrived in the Middle East and China.
>>215810829>with this cycle repeating until they can make some stronger llamas able to work like horses and figure out iron workThis is assuming zero contact with the Old World. In the case they somehow keep contact with Portuguese and Castillian sailors and don't die we should expect transformations like the ones that happened in the African kingdoms and Japan. The Portuguese would surely try to start a slave trade business with them but there won't be enough land available for mercantilist cashcrop plantations totally transforming the world, so the demand for slaves would be many orders of magnitude lower>>215811092Yes, I was assuming they don't find the Americas because that's the most realistic way of preventing the massive die off, but that scenario would only postpone the inevitable if we think about it. People will want to circumnavigate the earth at some point. Human beings are curious
>>215811265>but that scenario would only postpone the inevitable if we think about it.Population collapse was compounded by Indigenous society being destroyed and large swathes of the population being thrown into the lowest social strata and being herded into reductions at the hands of the Church. I imagine if diseases had been introduced but with no simultaneous invasion going on there would probably have been a lot less deaths. This could've happened if as Finn >>215810014 poster says here Eurasian diseases had been introduced by Vikings before and reached Mesoamerica and the Andes before Europeans, by a failed expedition into Mesoamerica like that of Franciso Hernandez de Cordoba or contact with East Asians before Europeans.
>>215812624The eastern United States suffered a heavy depopulation before the first European set foot there. Amazonian civilizations collapsed after contact with explorers, many decades before actual colonization. I don't think it makes a lot of difference if you are in a reduction or in a tribal tent or in a precolumbian city, if you catch a disease that you have zero resistance to it you are going to die. If the norsemen brought diseases with them to the first nations and the chain of infection didn't die out in a remote area in Canada the Americas would still suffer an apocaliptic populational collapse. They could come back from it but it becomes too speculative to try to guess what would be their developmental level in 1492
>>215810484no way they would be able to deal with dozens of millions if corpses without leaving evidence
>>215809737>22 millionI thought the mainstream guesstimate was a bit over thirty million for all the Americas from Patagonia to the Arctic
>>215813938No, retard, it's for Mesoamerica only
>>215809737Probably the same but with more indigenous mixed people in Mexico today.
>>215813777I have to say, we know of at least four contact events predating Columbus. The Na-Dene migration, the Inuit migration, the Norsemen contact, and lastly the Polynesian contact. The last two could have caused deadly epidemics but they didn't seem to so you could be correct to assume colonial conditions were an important catalyst for all the death. Or these western european sailors were much more infected than the previous contactors. We have to remember polynesians and greenlander norsemen lived pretty isolated from the rest of the world
>>215814684Polynesians couldn't have introduced Eurasian diseases. They themselves died frequently when Europeans first arrived. The small island populations were not conducive to harboring diseases for a long time, I think.
>>215810484Spaniards are credited by the United Nations to have created Human Rights preciselly because we created laws to protect indians and end slavery a few centuries before you did. You were still hanging blacks on trees in 1920.
>>215813859no its just that there isnt much effort into locating mass graves in history. Mexico has so much archeological stuff and its not well funded. A while ago there was a conspiracy theory about cartels running a scam where they hired people and just robbed and killed them because some mass graves were found but the remains turned out to be precolumbian. >>215815701America is an horrible country and was founded on genocide and racism, and even still we have genocidal policies towards the natives and racism is so firmly entrenched in our society that white people would rather destroy it than accept equality. That doesnt chage that the Spanish did commit genocide against the natives and horrible atrocities the whole time they were in power. They were a horrible society on par with the taliban today.
>>215815101I didn't know that. So really, the Amerindians must have gotten lucky 4 times in a row and only interacted with isolated Siberians and island people until Colombus' fleet showed up. So the same thing would have happened at some point in an alternate timeline. Maybe their best hope could only be timing, having this event happen to them as early as possible before the age of exploration, so their population could recover
