> the year is 1521> Cortes & his indian army is defeated by the Triple Alliance> He asks Cuauhtemoc to let him return to Cuba> Cuauhtemoc offers him to rule Mexico together, making him a tlatoani> However, he has to teach the mexica steel metallurgy & seafaring technology> Cortes agrees and becomes one of the richest & most powerful men of the Americas> Millons of castillians and europeans flock to Mexico since it is more wealthy and fertile than Europe (by this time the ottomans had managed to effectively block any commerce between Europe & China/India)> Mexica empire, updates its armories with swords, crossbows, muskets & adopts seafaring technology, becoming the most powerful army of the globe> It starts to expand to north and south america, eventually it spreads to Asia and even sends expeditions to Europe to fight against the turks>1000 thousand years PAX MEXICANA is established
Crumb of attention
>>217220886dude i watched apocalypto last evening and...wtf they killed random guys and ate their hearts???? so good this devilish civilization is gone for good...
>>217220886Spiritually Brazilian thread
>>217220886faggot filipino freak
>implicitly suggest that european influence is what brings the prosperity and power>irl the europeans ruled the whole continent for 3 centuries and nothing got done Im starting to get convinced our national IQ is indeed 85
>>217220939>>217220955>>217220958>>217221007> aaackThis was actually happening but the Borbons and Habsburgs thwarted it since it would had become more powerful than aby european empire
>>217220886That beggar fox from a disney movie
>>217220886You cant even do AI slop right. This is some better slop.
>>217220886why can't you just accept who you are tho
>>217221100>”nothing got done”>literally built the fourth largest country by size and third largest economy in all of the new world
>>217221100>muh Europeansdude, you're probably at least 1/3 euro, blame yourself
>>217221267>>literally built the fourth largest country by size and third largest economy in all of the new worldthe land is economying
>>217221234Mexican white supremacists live in perpetual conflict because they simply cant accept that native indigenous mexicans and their societies are (were) better than the New Spain. They have to make up fantasies and invisible enemies because they cant accept the spanish are not romans, the new spain was not rome, and that hispanism is inferior to islamism
>>217221267Lmao this fucking nigga is counting landmass as an accomplishment>and third largest economy in all of the new worldWho? Brazil?
>>217221194
>>217221316>>217221361Are you guys retarded? The borders don’t just occur naturally, they are maintained by a state.
>>217221516Empirically fake. Uruguay still exists as a sovereign nation state despite having no army. Borders in south america are not actively watched nor protected like in europe. They all just agreed to that arrangment in the XIX century
>>2172215681. Uruguay does have an army >The Armed Forces of Uruguay (Spanish: Fuerzas Armadas del Uruguay or FF.AA. del Uruguay) consist of the National Army of Uruguay, the National Navy of Uruguay, and the Uruguayan Air Force. These three independent branches are constitutionally subordinate to the President of the Republic through the Minister of Defense. The government has trimmed the armed forces to about 16,800 for the Army; 6,000 for the Navy; and 3,000 for the Air Force. As of February 2003, Uruguay has more than 2,500 soldiers deployed on 12 UN Peacekeeping missions. The largest groups are in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Haiti. There is also a 58-man contingent in the MFO in the Sinai.[3]2. Is a buffer state between Argentina and Brazil. And they do have armies.
>>217221102>That beggar fox from a disney movie
Did you guys hire a jeet to design your university in mexico city?Actual Aztec architecture looked beautiful.
Terrible inaccurate AI generated imageBecause AI just mashes together shit it finds online, it falls prey to all the same inaccurate visual tropes most depictions suffer fromAnyways, I did a giant 40+ post long dump on /k/ about the best shot the Aztec might have at trying to retain some degree of independence here: https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64434397/#64463604 a few weeks ago, see also this shorter greentext laying out a idealized scenario: https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/14963403/#14968743What you say in the OP is dumb because >Cortes was charged with treason and wanted by the Spanish crown at the time, Cortes wouldn't want to head back to Cuba empty handed to begin with>Conversely, as a result, Cortes isn't in a position to give the Mexica of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan anything, he doesn't represent the Crown and doesn't have the resources to get the Mexica gunpowder, metalsmiths, horses, naval technology etc>Even if the Crown agreed to give the Mexica access to those things, it wouldn't suddenly turn the Aztec Empire into a world class power, and the Spanish crown would be dumb to not use the fact that the Mexica would be dependent on Spain to get them, to then get power/influence within and over Mexica institutions, and monopolizing naval trade/access in the areaAs I say in what I linked, I do think the most ideal, not totally implausible situation would involve the Spanish giving the Mexica access to horses, steel metallurgy, and firearms, but what you outline isn't a path to that happening, it happening would still be unlikely, and it'd still result in much of Mesoamerica becoming Spanish vassals, albiet probably more gradually and with less direct conquests, population collapses, and more Prehispanic cultural elements surviving, with colonization playing out more like how it did in India and Southeast Asiat. Mesoamerican infodumper from /v/, /his/ etc1/?
>>217224182cont:>>217220955Apocalypto is inaccurate as fuck. Ritual cannibalism was a thing with human meat in specific ceremonial contexts, but it wasn't hearts that got eaten, those were typically burned.>>217221413>>217221194UNAM style mosaics on more Mesoamerican revivalist structures is an interesting idea but because it's AI it still doesn't get the basic structure shapes to be actually Mesoamerican enough and the murals/mosaics are overly brown. You want to see cool visualizations of Mesoamerican revival architecture done right, then look at the buildings in the Flowers and Ink comic by Tai Manzano: https://flowers.taimanzano.com/comic/page-7, or the stuff in Victor and Valentino's Mayahuel Gardens episode, see pic>>217223940Mosaics are a big thing in Mesoamerican art so I think what UNAM does is a neat idea, it just needed better execution. Apply the same sort of mosaics to a structure shaped like the Anahuacalli museum, and have some plastered/painted murals around and beneath what the mosaics are applied to, and it'd look great.Also that is an older version of that collage, I updated it with higher quality and better color corrected versions of some of those images a few years ago, though I need to update it again a third time at some point. 2/2 for now
>more wealthy and fertile than europelollmao in fact
my favourite part of all of these browngender fantasies about what muh mudland would look like in x amount of years time if europeans didn't conquer them is; but europeans did conquer you, didn't they, why were they able to do that?because europeans actually manifested their equivalent of your bazaar fantasyland into existence before your ancestors even got the chance.you were never going to invent anything, innovate anything or build anything equivalent to a european global empire and my evidence for this is the fact that you didn't. you don't get to share the planet with other people who want your shit and expect them not to compete with you for your possessions.>just give us 1000 more years bro
>>217224544The Inca already had an empire on the scale Ancient/Medieval China and Rome, though.Would they have have become a global naval power? Probably not, but plenty of Pre-Columbian empires and kingdoms were impressive by Ancient and Medieval standards.
>>217220886O algo...
>>217220886Wow, I don't like what the Dunmer have done to Vivec. When I was a lad St. Delyn and St. Olms were for housing the poor, now they've built these identikit, soulless corporate boxes right up to the puzzle canal. This would never have happened in the good old days of ALMSIVI.
>>217224591>i declare this land with nothing in it and no people living there to be part of my incan empire and i will not represent my domain on any mapsfantasies of the truly deranged.
>>217224544>in x amount of years time if europeans didn't conquer them is; but europeans did conquer you, didn't they, why were they able to do that?My alternative reality is not victimist thoughever, but triunfalist. An effective hispano-indian alliance to form an independent powerfum kingdom in the americas. It has Cortes & his indian allies wanted but got frustrated due to Peninsular intromision
>>217224826The Andes isn't my area so I can't comment on how densely populated most of it was, but I can say from an informed perspective that the Aztec Empire was about in the same ballpark of population density to many parts of Western Europe at the time, a number of plausible estimates even have it as more densely populated then Spain itself at the time.In fact, there was a recent paper which found that a specific part of the Central Maya Lowlands during the Classic period (100-900AD) had between 9 and 16 million people, which is kinda insane, since that's just a part of a part of Maya civilization, not all Mayas or all of Mesoamerica at the time, that level of population density would be significantly higher then a lot of or all of Europe in the 16th centuryThat being said even for me that seems hard to believe, but it's probably suggestive that we should be leaning towards higher rather then lower end estimates for Mesoamerican civilizations, not that wasn't already my stance (though I generally leaned towards mid-high, not high-high)
>>217225232>being a sidekick in your own power fantasiesLmao
>>217224182>Anyways, I did a giant 40+ post long dump on /k/ about the best shot the Aztec might have at trying to retain some degree of independence here: https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64434397/#64463604 a few weeks ago, see also this shorter greentext laying out a idealized scenario: https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/14963403/#14968743so you're saying this is the worst timeline in history
>>217225271It could be worse, the Spanish could have successfully destroyed all copies of stuff like the Florentine Codex
Malinchismo actually refers to Cortes and how he couldnt break away from the Peninsular Crown, despite him being the most powerful person in the world ib 1521 (having thousands upon thousands of armies at his command and all the mexica-adyacent landmass)Mexico hate Cortes not because he destroyed Tenochtitlan but because he didnt make us independent in 1520'sHe would be a national heroe if he did
>>217223940It was boring stone age shit. They couldn't even come up with keystones or windows.
>>217225259could u link the paper? some time ago i kept wondering if the maya area had a higher population density than the rest of mesoamerica due to how many impressive cities have been excavated in the area compared to the gulf coast, oaxaca, central mexico and the west.
>>217224826>no people living there to be part of my incan empireNah. But in the southeastern frontier the Incas built a lot of stuff close to the insanely high mountain summits of the area, places where basically nobody had lived before. It were some of the highest temples and roads on earth at the time.Upon finding this info, I've seen some thinking that then, pre-Inca Andean religion surely had similar high-altitude sites, but not even close. Sure, some folks probably climbed up to commune with glacial Apus, like in modern Andean pilgrimages, but whatever marks they left aren’t anywhere near as verifiable as Inca infrastructure.But that was close to the mountain tops of the highest summits outside the Himalayas. In that same part of the Inca frontier, but in the area more hospitable to human settlement (still quite high and rough though), was one of the most militarized frontiers of the late Inca Empire, second only to Quito.During Wayna Qhapaq’s reign, the Incas built many forts and walls to stop Guaraní incursions through the northeastern frontier. At least 48 pukaras are recorded. On the northern end you’ve got Samaipata, partly carved into bedrock.
>>217226237And the southern end of that militarized frontier was protected by the pukara Aconquija, with a 3 km defensive wall.
>>217225402Sure, herehttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X25003219>>217225398They smelted Bronze, so they weren't "Stone Age" even in a literalist definition of that term.But the entire concept of "stone/bronze/iron ages" is dumb to begin with because they literally just started out as a way for 18th century museums to in Eurasia to date their collections before they had proper dating methods. It was never intended to be a system of technological stages all societies move throughAn easy example of how dumb it is is that there are some African tribes who still lived in small villages that developed steel metallurgy without ever touching Bronze, yet in Mesoamerica, Teotihuacan was in the top 20 largest cities in the world at the time from 200-600AD, on par with some of the largest Roman cities in population (and bigger then Rome itself in physical scale); with basically the entire urban population living in fancy palaces with dozens of rooms, open courtyards, painted frescoes and with plumbing systems; a massive arena bigger then the colosseum which like the colosseum could be flooded for activities; and had some of the world's largest pyramids in history; yet the city rose and fell before the region developed any metallurgy at all. So would those African tribes be iron age while Teotihuacan is stone age? It's stupid, you're solely looking at materials used for tools and ignoring urbanism, waterworks, architecture, mathematics, agriculture and botany, the arts and philosophy, political institutions, etc.
>>217226262>>217225398>>217225402Also, there are Mesoamerican buildings with windows, see pic, they just aren't especially common. What you see more often are openings built into the roofs of palaces, you can see some in >>217226262, not just for the courtyards but also sometimes specific rooms.If by "keystones" you mean true arches, then those were also a thing in Mesoamerica, admittedly though only rarely at a few archeological sites, corbel arches were definitely more common
>>217226258Also, it was from the Inca southeastern frontier that some of the earliest contacts with the Inca Empire occurred, even before Pizarro’s last expedition.The Portuguese Aleixo Garcia reached the area in 1525, but never had a chance to met the Inca, Wayna Qhapaq was in Quito at the time, at the other end of the Inca Empire (he’d just been in the south before Garcia arrived), and Garcia came in as part of the Guaraní raids into Charcas, so there wasn’t much room for early diplomacy anyway.But when Wayna Qhapaq heard about the Chiriguanos having supposedly very particular appearances, he ordered some to be brought to him in Quito. Which is weird, because he must’ve already seen them during his stay in the south. So maybe the accounts are actually talking about the appearance of the Europeans traveling with the indians rather than the indians themselves, since historians from the Inca side don't actually mention the Europeans.Another contact in the Inca southeastern frontier with Europeans before Pizarro’s invasion in the north was that of Francisco Cesar, who was sent to meet the Incas through that route, sent to inspect and establish relations with this mysterious newly heard-of kingdom on behalf of the crown, visiting with the kuraka Yungulo (Shunkullu), the Inca governing the Comechingones people.Almost at the same time, the Spanish from Panama were trying to confirm on their own the existence of the Incas, but wouldn’t do so successfully until after this much less-remembered event. There are also a couple of other, more obscure but debated previous Panamanian contacts with the Incas before Pizarro, even with Wayna Qhapaq, but they’re just brief mentions, if they happened, they were probably short meetings that weren’t properly recorded.
>>217226333>If by "keystones" you mean true arches, then those were also a thing in Mesoamerica, admittedly though only rarely at a few archeological sites,where are they?
>>217226341Also worth noting, in this same southeastern frontier in Argentina, a neo-Inca state emerged right at the very border, Linlin Curaca, ruled by Quil Quilta, a full-blooded Inca from Cusco, one of the main financiers of the Vilcabamba neo-Inca state in the Peruvian jungle, who also supported the Mapuche against the Spanish.Because he controlled the only Inca gold mine on the Argentinian side of the southern portion of Collasuyu (all the others were on the Chilean side).
>>217226237>to stop Guaraní incursions through the northeastern frontierSoutheastern frontier*
>>217226370I'm sure this will sound like an excuse, but I have the names saved on a different laptop I can't access right now.Some other anons dug up some sites that allegedly had them a few days ago here: https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/18126800/#18131624 when they asked me and I gave them the same answer I told you above, but I just can't vouch that those sites actually have it since I didn't look at the links yet, waiting till I have the list of cities/towns I already looked into first on hand to add toI will say that Muñeca sounds familiar so that could be one of the ones I knew of. That said, from that I recall, there were 3 sites that allegedly had true arches, but only 1 site had them fully documented. The other anons saying Calakmul had one seems suspicious to me, that's one of the most famous Maya cities so if it had one you'd think it'd be more publicized.
>>217220886why is this thread causing so much seething, seem like a fun alternative history scenario
>>217226387Quil Quilta had also supported the Diaguita before, but the rebellion of Juan Calchaqui (Kaler Mokaiñ) failed, and the Diaguita were never as united again, the uprising led by the Spanish (or Quitenian) Pedro Bohorquez (Inca Hualpa) had some potential though.Juan Calchaqui btw, was consecrated in his youth by the last Inca Vilaoma, the “Inca Pope,” Challco Yupanqui, during Challco’s banishment in Collasuyu.You see, many decades earlier, Challco was the one who crowned Wayna Qhapaq king, but then Wayna seized absolute power for himself and erased the Vilaoma position.At the end of the civil war turmoil, Challco returned to Cusco with his cousin Paullo Inca. Paullo, descended from a Wayllas princess from central Peru in Chinchaysuyu (and from Wayna Qhapaq), but had lived his entire life in Collasuyu. Paullo was presented to the Spanish and was made Emperor after Manco Inca rebelled.Challco had also organized part of the rebellion in Collasuyu and later in Cusco itself as one of the commanders under Manco Inca, helping organize the capture of the fortress of Sacsayhuaman.But then, Inca general Yasca (or Pasca) successfully assaulted the fortress of Sacsayhuaman (controlled by Challco's forces).Yasca was the former supreme commander of the Inca army during the reign of Wayna Qhapaq, and the one sent to secure the empire’s southeastern frontier, pushing back the Guaraní while Wayna pacified Ecuador’s uprising.Yasca was now allied with the Spaniards, together with other Inca generals like Waypar and Inquill (well, in fact, supposedly all of Cusco sided with the Spanish against Manco’s siege), and non-Inca commanders like the Cañari warlords Zaraunanta and Vilchumlay, etc.
>>2172270981. Anons who hate anything from non white/asian civilizations2. Anons who are obsessively into Mesoamerica who are nitpicking the OP's accuracy
>>217220955>killed random guys and ate their hearts?not so different from what you did at Gleiwitz
hispanistas BTFO
>>217220886>Cuauhtemoc offers him to rule Mexicoare mexoids really like thatif i launch an invasion of your country right now will you offer me to be el presidente?
>>217229093Cortes managed to form a massive indian alliance, despite his little knowledge of the mesoamerican world. That's means his a great strategist and political man. Would you rather have him go back to Cuba where he can re-launch an attack, or give him various altepetl to co-rule with you? All while you get new technologies
>>217229136if someone attacks your country you kill him bruv
>>217221101Not my fault the Spanish and Mexican governments decided to cancel their conquest of China
>>217229136>>217229289Cortes got the alliances he did not because of strategic genius, but because various Mesoamerican kings wanted to use him and manipulated him to their advantage as much as he was using them to play divide-and-conquer. All his other expeditions were failuresHe's not stupid, he clearly was good at thinking on his feet and making the most of bad situations, but he's not a master strategist and was being used as much as he was using others. This is also why the idea that he got allies because Aztec rule was hated is a misconception: It's actually moreso that Aztec rule was loose and hands off and that enabled opportunistic defection since subject states kept their own agency, ambitions, and interestssee arch.b4k.co/v/thread/473816781/#473824067 and desuarchive.org/his/thread/7312549/#7317474 and https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/14673308/#14686080, and desuarchive.org/k/thread/64434397/#64469714 + the other posts in that one I link and the two directly preceding it
>>217221413>>217221194looks like commie brutalism
>>217231252well its well known he didnt 'form an alliance' an alliance was mostly there he just joined inalso mexica was kinda retarded at the time they just let the spanish in and let them take their king hostage and basically take over. the only reason they ended up destroying the capital is because one of the spanish leaders chimped out and killed a bunch of mexica nobles (somewhat understandable since their customs were very alien and disgusting to someone from another culture but so were the spanish customs)
