The world will never know peace as long as the Straits of Marmara remain under the control of group of people who could at any point return to being jihadi expansionist terrorists because that is what their identity ultimately revolves around.
>>217939995The black sea is was and will always be irrelevant, other than some fake christians who seems to care more about some fake holy cities than what their religion define as holy no one cares about that city really
Ataturk was whiter than you Giorgio.
>>217940062So? 1 based Turk does not suddenly make the rest of them who keep voting for Erdogan from Germany because they fantasize about Ottoman jihad glory any better.
>>217940062if this is true, why didnt he reintroduce tengrism?
>>217939995How is giving the straights to proto-Russians change this? Just convert Turks to Catholicism
>>217940185Catholicism is cringe
>>217940170>if [Ataturk was whiter than you] is true, why didnt he reintroduce tengrism?
>>217939995keep dreaming buddy
>>217940170I mean, his rule saw them going as far as to change Turkish from an Arabic script and scrapping a bunch of loanwords from Arabic/Iranian, plus I think they even studied the culture of actual Turks in Central Asia. Maybe since Central Asians were already Islamized so much that they couldn't find traditional shamanistic Turks anymore?
>>217939995Idg why Russia vetoed this. Apparently they wanted Constantinople for themselves but then that didn’t go anywhere anyways.
>>217939995>>217940261if that happened, the capital of greece would be Athens or Costantinople?
>>217939995pisslam is europe's problem, it's getting more and more irrelevant here every year
>>217940261I mean even if your ultimate goal is to control the strait yourself, wouldn’t you prefer that it’s being hold by a country with a fraction of the population of the ottomans along with a much poorer economy?
The Republic of Turkey has the TAF as its guardians of the constitution's secular nature. Every time there's been a president close to what you describe, he's been deposed in a military coup. Erdogan since the failed coup has made a coalition with the nationalists, who are not particularly fond of jihad. Golden Dawn has come comparably closer to power in Greece than any party that's sought the destruction of the Turkish Republic, rather than its reform.
>>217940305Golden Dawn is exactly the sort of nationalist party that Erdogan is colaborating with so i’m not sure what your point is. They’re not christian fundamentalist beyond the populist maga-esque lip service
>>217940305>coalition with the nationalists, who are not particularly fond of jihadthe "nationalists" supporting him (ülkücü/gray wolves) are more neo-ottomanists than actual nationalists, they LARP as they like the central asian culture but they're also islamists and are more like the mafiaeither way, their political views are irrelevant and a huge majority does not support him anymore. Erdoğan is only in power because he's been in power for 23 years and is connected to every major business. His biggest supporters are the corrupt rich elite who are mostly secular and supporting him to maintain the status quo. The whole islam thing is just a front for the rural boomers
>>217940345Turkish nationalism is more affiliated with the Kemalists than the Muslim Brotherhood-ists. The Italian poaster thinks that Turkey is on the precipice of jihad, but that wouldn't be the case with the nationalists being a part of the coalition in power.>>217940374What happened with that Istanbul mayor who got booked on corruption charges or something? Was that a nothing-burger or more significant?Don't you also think that the current coalition has had some major victories to its name; wrt Syria & Azerbaijan? Does that matter at all for the broader electorate?
>>217940374Does the muslim larp play any sort of role in holding up a united identity with the kurds and arabs in the east? Lets say that the next guy after Erdogan is an up front secular christian (or whatever). Would that strain national cohesion at all? Would anyone even care?
>>217940374>His biggest supporters are the corrupt rich elite who are mostly secular and supporting him to maintain the status quoIsn't that how it always goes with these dictators? They remain in power indefinitely as long as the right people -the people with any actual power- want them to.The truth is that democracy is one of the biggest lies and powerplays in human history. It's made almost the entire global population into slaves that think they aren't slaves and have a say in how things are run.Monarchs and warlords of past eras wish they could've crafted something like this.
>>217940496The smaller the country is, the better democracy work. Or something like that. Iceland has a population of 500k. They didn’t even bail their banks out after 2008. The people were too close to the powers that be for the government to get away with it like they did in pretty much every other country on earth. They just let it default
>>217940496>>217940549Democracy works best with a monocultural + monoethnic polity.
>>217940549>he smaller the country is, the better democracy work.do whypipo really think this? they would nepotism maxx
>>217940443>What happened with that Istanbul mayor who got booked on corruption charges or somethinghe's still jailed, they didn't even start his actual trial btw. they finished preparing the indictment like a month ago and it's 4k pages filled with contradictory shit (probably written by AI). he's been unlawfully jailed for almost a year and has been going through a bunch of other nothingburger charges made just to keep him jailed they're trying to do the same with ankara's mayor too but he's still free >>217940489the kurd situation is difficult to explain, it's not really an ethic problem because most kurds embrace the turkish national identity and are against PKK, a lot of them are also alawites so they're not typical muslimsno politician here will ever be openly non-muslim though. even the secular politicians are "muslims", but it's the more modern and westernized turkish islam instead of the arabic sharia stuff erdoğan is trying to push
>>217940691Can I ask why Turks see Israel's response to Hamas as different to Turkey's response to the PKK? Do you foresee relations being set back to pre-Mavi Marmara if Israel reins in the SDF in exchange for Turkey completely dropping Hamas?
>>217940294Then why is Erdogan still in power?
>>217940789Most turks even the secular types hate israel.
>>217940800Sure, but that's not why I'm asking. I don't understand how Turkey's citizens find the PKK absolutely repugnant and support all military action in quashing them; while tacitly supporting Hamas who has done similarly since the Second Intifada. Don't forget that Israel started supporting the Kurd's proper after AKP's blatant support of Hamas during the 2008 Gaza war.
>>217940636Yeah, that definitely would happen in smaller countries, whereas it doesn't happen in large countries at all!
>>217940827Anon everybody is a hypocrite. Nobody sees humans as completely equal. It’s time for you to understand this if you want to understand the world. Humanism and all that is absolute bullshit and even the most left leaning timmy thinks he is superior asians even if he doesn’t admit it openly. So anything his side does is alright but absolutely barbaric when the people he doesn’t like does the same.
>>217941007Well at least we've established the dissonance of Turkey's indignation against Israel. Turks should understand that a Palestinian state in the culture's present form would be the exact same kind of security threat a Kurdish state would amount to. Imagine if the nascent & secessionist Kurdistan purchased a huge fleet of Iranian Shaheds to send into Southern Turkey? Is it so far-fetched that a hypothetical Palestinian state would do the same?
>>217939995>expansionist terroriststhe irony of saying this while posting the megali plan
I‘d rather nuke, scorch and raze everything to the ground before giving even a millimeter of land to a foreign power.
>>217941256You wont be able to do any of that if you are in Germany THO
>>217941324Lenin was in Switzerland too before the revolution.
>>217940964if the country is bigger there are more nepotists in the game and they will fight each others, possibly leadint to rules to prevent nepotism in the end
>>217941421Yeah, the people in power will make rules so that they can't place their own families and collaborators in power. They won't form factions so that one has the other's back all the time.You're a smart guy who doesn't have a childlike and immature view of power and politics at all.
>>217940789how are the two situations even comparable? israel is an invading force settled into palestine by european powers and are forcibly taking the land away from its inhabitants and they don't even plan to stop after just palestine since their "promised lands" are much larger than thatthat's different from what's going on in turkey. first of all despite what the western media says, kurds aren't oppressed here since there isn't even a clear turk/kurd distinction. being a turk isn't a racial identity, it's a national one and most people of kurdish origin do identify as turks and are as nationalistic as everyone else. kurds never had a nation, they aren't the natives and weren't even the majority in those regions until recently, most of them came from iraq to run away from saddam. PKK does not represent the kurds, they grew by massacring kurdish villages and kidnapping their kids. they were founded by the CIA to destabilize the region. and most importantly we're not indiscriminately bombing kurdish settlements like israel is doing with the palestinians but also, other than the radical islamists, people here don't really support hamas and they see them as terrorists. hamas isn't palestine. everyone does hate israel for being expansionist and genocidal though
>>217941256Too late for that geg
>>217941504First, when outsiders view Turkey through the lens of territorialist "Neo-Ottomanism", do you find that absurd? Because the "Greater Israel" idea falls in that category.Second, your historical perception of Israel is alien to the great leaders that your country once possessed. The Jews had no state that belonged to themselves, and sought a portion in their historical homeland, first by monetary means, and eventually by military means, after escalating violence. The Palestinian national movement until Oslo has always sought the destruction of Israel as a state.Three, Arab citizens of Israel are as equal under the law as Kurdish citizens of Turkey are. They are only scrutinised when there is support for terroristic entities like the PKK.And you're right that PKK doesn't represent all Kurds, nor Hamas all Palestinians (despite their majority support, and electoral victories in 2005) but would I not be right to say that many Kurds are skeptical of the SDF and the secessionist entity of Rojava? Sometimes having responded with supreme military force during the Syrian civil war? I remember seeing some pretty nasty scenes of Turkish tanks razing Kurdish villages some years back. Please examine this post and share your thoughts:>>217941144
>>217941764*Many Turks are skeptical of the SDF and Rojava?I respect Turkey quite a lot and would like tensions to cool down between the two countries.
>>217941515>all the lost areas are shitholes except a fewMission successful I‘d say.
>>217941504Why don't you give them a referendum then to decide for themselves. HAHAHA of course you won't because you know what you're saying is bullshit.
>>217939995not even Muslim but Greece is literally closer to being a fundamentalist terrorist state than Turkey ever is
>>217941849>all the lost areas are shitholes except a fewDoesn't that say something about turks?
>>217941849Balkans were literally the main lands of the Ottoman empire, Anatolia is the actual shithole
>>217939995it should return to rightful israeli rule
>>217941764neo-ottomanism itself is an absurd idea that's not supported by anyone, meanwhile israel is actively expansionist >your historical perception of Israel is alien to the great leaders that your country once possessedas far as I know there wasn't a single turkish leader that supported israel being a jewish state. the sultans all obviously rejected it and ataturk even said that he'd go to war if the brits tried to do that>Arab citizens of Israel are as equal under the laweveryone knows that this is only true on paper. israel is an ethnoreligious state and non-jews are second-class citizens. but that's besides the point, they're invaders, you don't let people take over your land just because they treat you the same. if you really want to compare turkey and PKK to israel and hamas, i'd say PKK is more like a failed version of israel than hamas>SDF and the secessionist entity of Rojavathey're right to be skeptical about them because they're offshoots of PKK, they work together and have the same end goal in mind. currently our government is negotiating with PKK's (imprisoned) leader öcalan, he says SDF would stop being a threat if he was releasedthe whole thing is a mess honestly, for the military campaign they said they paid extra care to not involve any civilians, but really civilian losses are inevitable for operations on that scale. still, it wasn't a full on genocidal "wipe them off the map" operation like israel is doing
>>217942722 I think you've got the blinders on when it comes to Israel and your own country. Israel is as expansionist as Turkey is when it does incursions into Syria for security concerns. Just like Israel wants to contain and diminish Hezbollah, Turkey wants to do the same for the SDF.For example;>for the military campaign they said they paid extra care to not involve any civilians, but really civilian losses are inevitable for operations on that scale.This is the case for Gaza, and even moreso. The strip is *far* more dense than any parts of Rojava, and there has been no ability for Gazans to flee the strip, whereas Kurdish civilians have been permanently transferred from villages near the border. Israel has sought to wipe Hamas off the map, and has targeted civil & military infrastructure with a greater concentration than it has any non-combatants.You also do not understand Israel's legal foundation, just like Turkey's current veneer of Islamism has not strayed from the secular Republican core, Israel is the same. Israel's legal system is based upon British common law. There's no changing that anytime soon. The only party that sought its destruction was Kach, and they were banned from the Knesset after the Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre.
>>217941943Yeah, we brought civilisation to them when we arrived and took it away when we left. Simple as.>>217941974The main lands of the Ottoman Empire were the lands around the Aegean Sea. The Balkans were just our foothold in Europe.
Turanism is just as autistic as islam
>>217940261They're greedy pigs that's why
>>217939995ATATÜRK already shattered your delusions KEK
Between Greek and Turks I trust the Turks to not cause problems more.Greeks would try to tax trade to pay off their debnts, Turkey lets ship pass for free, as per the agreements.Besides the people living there are Turks, why wouldn't it be part of Turkey?
>>217943091You keep ignoring his refutations of your analogy.Kurds are not the natives of the southeast.There is no restriction on Kurds' freedom of movement.Kurds do not live under military law.Turkey is not sending Turkish settlers to Kurdish areas.Turkey is not trying to expel Kurds into neighboring countries.Turkey has not been annexing parts of Iraq or Syria.Turkey is not killing journalists who report on the conflict.
Palestine can suck my dick, I'm pro-genocide and wonder why isn't Israel actually exterminating the lot of them considering nobody would raise a fuss with Russia kicking drawing attention back to Ukraine and Venezuela pissing Trump off too many times.
>>217948179what does palestine have to do with this thread
