Do people do this in your country? I look Bosnia and think to myself, how do bosnian "traditionalists" justify their position? It seems to me that if you're a Bosnian muslim you almost have to go "what we're saying was revolutionary not too long ago but as you can see it's way better" but like, that's the opposite of tradition... And there's the obvious problem that every country in europe had to do this at some point.
so we should worship the trees o algo
>>220032302if we're starting with the assumption that tradition is valuable and something that needs to be kept then yeah that'd be the conclusion
>>220032282>Do people do this in your country?Make equivocations? All the time. The trend is to take anything bad that's going on right now and then ascribe it to something good we had in the past and vice versa. You like the picture of the 1950s family grilling hotdogs? Um well ackshually that family had immense toil and suffering and abuse and dependency on medications like valium and heroin or something. The technique is like in Judo, you use the momentum of someone else in order to do the work for you. So if I'm propagandizing, I take all of the negative experiences you've had today and in the last decade knowing their direct impressions on your consciousness, and then I say "it was like that" to a time where it was probably not that bad. Basically, in summary, Christianity is the right and correct religion and led to a lot of positive development even if in some regions it spread in a regrettably fat-fisted way, and any new movement that preoccupies itself with Christianity might as well regard itself as another form of Protestantism.
>>220032282i mean that is europe in a nutshell. christianity is a levantine religion and there are passages that affirms that over and over in the bible
>>220032730so levantine that it was expounded by western theologians and that its head was the most influential city in western history
>>220032730Nah, considering it was co-opted and taken over by Romans after Constantine, I would say it’s a European religion
>>220033094it is an excellent religion for powers to wield i didnt say anything against that. but it sure as hell isnt tailed after european living conditions
>>220033146you do understand that living conditions are different in most of europe then in jerusalem?
>>220032282You will never walk.
>>220032282Especially in the Balkans.Imagine being do fond of your conquerors that you turn into them like Bosniaks or Albanians.They seem kinda like being Nations build on betrayal.
>>220033222Shouldn't then Serbs also revert to being Albanians/Romans/Greeks?
>>220033094so if islam did make more of a headway into europe and was espoused by european theologians more often, would that make it a european religion?
>>220032282Ottomans had a religion based system. It made sense for bosnians to convert.Many of them rises high in the ottoman hierarchy.Tradition has always been a tool used by established elites to keep their subjects loyal and servile.
>>220032649>Christianity is the right and correct religionFactually false. Besides thirdie religion
>>220033261it depends at what point in time did euro theologians catch it, if its early on like with christianity, yes ?
>>220033261100% yesThere was a time even indo-european gods weren't really "traditional" for most of Europe
>>220033253You think serbs used to be Albanians?To go further on my point. Among the greatest heros of its time in whole Europe was Skanderbeg for succesfully fighting the turks for some time securing Albanian freedom. Like how do Albanians look at him today knowing they became what he fought against?
>>220033300what do you mean "early on"? shortly after it was invented, or early enough in european history?both seem arbitrary.
>>220033336Did the natives sublimate when the Serbs arrived? You understand that Germanics, Turkics, Italians and Greeks all had a presence in the Balkans before Slavs arrived.What do you think about Skanderbeg's fight against Italians?
>>220033363when Rome adopted it
>>220033336>Among the greatest heros of its time in whole Europe was Skanderbeg for succesfully fighting the turks for some time securing Albanian freedom.Largely a meme. Most of these guys fighting against the ottomans were doing it for personal purposes rather than any noble causeDracula is the biggest example of self-serving rulers too
Both Christianity and Islam mostly spread peacefully, as ideas generally do.
>>220033447Bosnia's conversion is even cringiest because it was largely because of taxes lol
>>220033417the ottoman empire was a contiunuation of the byzantine (eastern roman) empire, no different to a germanic emperor
>>220033460I'd convert to anything if it meant I'd pay less taxes.
>>220033461It's funny because thinking in terms of genetics, the ottomans had more "Byzantine" blood than actual turkic(the steppe ones) blood
>>220033336I don't mean to insult you I think sins have been absolved, but I also wonder that about how nazis looked up to Charlemagne even though one of the few things we definitely know he did was order mass executions of german prisoners of war
>>220033222Some races just have an innate serf mentality.
>>220032282i don't understand why people believe this enough to post shit like thislike do you have 0 historical literacy or something if so why are you interested in this and post this bullshit how does this even happen
>>220033398He also served Italians. He did change sides quite a lot.Still the main antagonist is clearly the turk.So how do Albanians look at him? How do they rationalize their greatest hero fighting what they became?
>>220033611what do you mean?if you're saying that no european country that's currently muslim was conquered by someone styling themselves caliph, yeah poetic license but it's undoubtable that many times people in a given place converted because the royalty at the top of the polity was of a certain religion, and frequently borders shifted through warthis isn't excluisive to islam if that's what you mean, you could reverse it and it'd be just as true
>>220033447Not really. It spread where the ruling elite permitted. It was the choice of the ruling elites and they become elites via aggressive means. Like how woke is spreading in American ruled lands now. Sure people trooning out peacefully, but the USA became a hegemon by war.>>220033460That's a Serb lie. People converted to Islam all over the empire. During the independence wars the Muslims were either exterminated or expelled to Anatolia. Bosnia remained majority Muslim because AH occupied it and saw Muslims as a potential ally against Serbs. So they get to stay. For example the grandfather of Izetbegović was from Belgrade and moved to Bosnia
>>220033622You know that half of Albania is Christian?You know that it was Muslim Albanians who rebelled against Muslim Turks?You know that religion and nationality are two different things? Imagine if you talked about Germans in these terms?>What did Prussians think about Barbarossa don't they know that he was Catholic?But since you aren't German, this example won't help you.
>>2200335241. Karl der Große doesn't have a status of a national hero or epos.I have not the biggest idea what the nazis viewed of what dude. Find a nazi and tell him to write down what he thinks of any person in history.
>>220033611Patuljko is a midget Pole who is confined to a wheelchair. His only joy in life is to suck up to Serbia.
>>220033759well i looked it up at some point and they built him monuments during their administration
>>220033757>half of Albania is Christian?
>>220033797>well i looked it up at some point and they built him monuments during their administrationWell he is the founder of the 1st Reich. Tho I don't know of any nazi monument dedicated to him.
>>220033907i'm not saying he was seen as the messiah but i'd say if you build a monument to someone you look up to him and see him favourably
bosnian christians were oppressed by other christian denominations like catholics and orthodox for having weird stuff in their tradition for years, that's why they easily converted to islam during the ottoman eraso yeah, here goes your "tradition"
>>220033942What monument are we talking about?
>>220034379and for some reason our heretics like the cathars died instead of reverting to catholicism
>>220034379I smell shite in your words.
>>220034429I don't remember, sorry.
>>220035002leave your scat fantasies out of this thread, hans
>>220032326Wouldn't doing X for 300 years make it also traditional?>>220033524>but I also wonder that about how nazis looked up to Charlemagne even though one of the few things we definitely know he did was order mass executions of german prisoners of warGood question. Like with many topics the reception of the NSDAP of Charlemagne was ambivalent and opportunistic. At first Charlemagne was definately portrayed in a negative light and his Saxon Wars (especially the Massacre of Verden) were represented as "french" and "anti-german catholic" aggression. But secondly Charlemagne was idealised as a german pan-european ruler whose wars against the ancient Saxons was the prerequisite for the wars against the ancient Slavs and the acquisition of Lebensraum. Here the "germanness" of Charlemagne was emphasised and his conquest of the Saxons seen as a "homogenisation" of the german people.>>220036007I couldn't find any monument that was built under the NSDAP for Charlemagne.
>>220032282>we can return to the religion fo our ancestorsso illyrian paganism?
>>220032282yes people here think christianity is the religion of our ancestors
>>220037437>I couldn't find any monument that was built under the NSDAP for Charlemagne.yeah now i can't either, but i could swear they put up a plaque or something at the very leasti mean i would assume it to not exist now
>>220039315>i mean i would assume it to not exist nowWhy? A plephora of nazi architecture still exists to this very day and in most cases is even still in use. And I did a little bit of digging: the NSDAP in generel errected very few monuments. The focus lied rather on monumental architecture - where nazi symbology could easily be removed after the war and thus many were left standing and used.
>>220032282How far back would we need to go to sate the traditionalist hunger? Most people stop at paganism, but I think we should go back to being animism and jerk off to venus figurines.
>>220040141well tearing down a building is different than tearing down a monument or a plaqueI would be surprised to see any nazi MONUMENTS standing still, maybe gravestones would remain
>>220040332There were just few nazi monuments. On the 12th December 1933 Hitler forbade the erection of monuments in his honor and already existing private Hitler-monuments had to be removed. The NSDAP either focused on monumental architecture or simply added their symbology to already existing monuments and memorials. Pic rel is one of the few "pure" nazi "monuments" I could find and it ist just a viewing platform that was named after Hitler and had a large Swastika on its front. The latter got removed and it is still used as a viewing platform to this day.
