I've been exploring where to do my PhD, and looked in Europe and I was astonished by how poorly paid PhD students are. In the USA your stipend is usually 40-52k/yr + whatever scholarships you can get, whereas in Europe it seems that they just give sustenance-level stipends and scholarships are scarce. Also, if you invent something at a US university you get 35-50% of the revenue and control of how it's used until the patent expires, but that only seems to be the case in some European countries with only 20% of revenue being common in the countries that give any revenue.Europe generally has better regulations for workers and cheaper education, but this seems like a massive oversight/gap on the EU's part.
>>220487780in Europe a PhD student is expected to work as a researcher and/or lecturer basically full time. you get a salary for that. in the US you guys speedrun the PhD because you do the MSc during it, here you're supposed to finish your MSc first and then do your PhD. which means there really isn't much coursework left to take, your time is mostly spent doing actual lab work if you're lucky and a lot of teaching work if you're not.
>>220487850It's the same in the USA, you work 10-20hrs/wk as a RA/TA and get a salary, stipend, tuition waiver, and health insurance. Also, some programs are a mix of MSc/PhD programs, but others are not. Even still, the "salaries" you get as a PhD student here are astonishingly low, I'm surprised with all your workers regulations that doctoral TAs/RAs are so miserably paid there. It seems like a massive oversight with all the EU's attempts to attract high talent people from abroad.
>>220487780Europe already has enough doctors arriving via boats, they don't need to encourage more students.
>>220487997the "salaries" you get as a PhD student THERE (in Europe)*
>>220487997depends on the field and institution. I worked as a researcher all the way through my PhD and my salary was actually decent for my city. of course, it's still shit compared to whatever americans make and my degree is ultimately worthless, but it's better than flipping burgers. and that's enough for a lot of people.all the talented people fucked off to america or wherever right after high school anyway. if you can't compete for those anyway there's no need to pay more than you have to for the remaining trash like me.
>>220488087>>220487997also, you don't work 10-20 hours, you work 40 (or "40", on paper, which is really 50-60)
>>220488119>>220488087Do you mean you work "40" in Europe or in the USA? Here it's your coursework or your thesis work + 10-20/hrs a week TA/RA, but usually you work less because of the Professor isn't teaching that semester you don't have to TA, and if you get the RA position it usually just means doing your own research and helping the Professor a bit with his on the side. Also, please don't take my comments as hostile to Europe. Europe is better than the USA in most aspects so it was upsetting that moving there for my PhD wasn't actually the best move for me.
>>220488296>you work "40" in EuropeI was talking about Europe. "you" as in "the abstract European PhD student".>coursework or your thesis workIn Europe, many students will find a way to work full time through most of their PhD, at least in my field it was like that because everyone I knew worked full time me included. It does vary by field. If you're (you as in the abstract European PhD student) in a well-funded field (like I was), you will typically be able to find a research role that you can align with a PhD thesis. That way, you don't need to split the time because the work you do for your salary also goes towards your dissertation. If you're in a field without any funding you'll probably spend most of your working hours grading homework or some shit and will therefore need to do your actual thesis research on your own time.>moving there for my PhD lmao what a fucking retard. why would any American do that? unless it's to get into one of like 5 European unis that actually rate with American ones. Anyone who is any good in Europe moves to America the first chance they get.
>>220488489Europe has better nightlife (NYC being the exception), has better cities than most American ones, has better social programs, has cheaper cost of living, has more attractive women who actually approach you, has actual history and culture. And the thing about "university rankings" is that it isn't like any specific university is hoarding secret information, you can get a good education at any university that has at least a minimum level of resources. Sure, American universities have like expensive dining halls, and gyms, and pools, and big quads and shit but that doesn't matter for one's education. Yeah, you can make more money in the USA, but everything is more expensive.
>>220488726>better nightlifeif you care about this you're a fakecel, unvirgins out>And the thing about "university rankings" is that it isn't like any specific university is hoarding secret information, you can get a good education at any university that has at least a minimum level of resourcesThat's not how it works. You need to work with top people to get highly cited publications (because highly cited people's papers get cited highly) and highly funded people get new funding more easily. Science is a field with extreme economies of scale and a brutal pareto index. If you're not in the tightly knit top circle you're worthless and are NGMI.A PhD is not about "education", it's a chance to prove yourself as a scientist worth funding. And you do that by becoming part of the cool kids' club and building your resume.If you get your PhD at some no-name euro uni you will never get to do anything with it beyond maybe running in the Horizon project treadmill, endlessly regurgitating the latest buzzwords to get at the scraps, if you're lucky.
>>220488726>Yeah, you can make more money in the USA, but everything is more expensive.also, come one now. how can you get a PhD and still not understand what "disposable income" is? most shit that isn't real estate costs about the same in the US as it does in Europe. especially anything that is a globally traded commodity, like most consumer goods. so if you've got $3000 left over after rent, while a European has $500, you've got several times the effective discretionary purchasing power.
>>220488726>has more attractive women who actually approach you, has actual history and cultureI got so triggered by the nightlife bit that I didn't even read this far. Masterful bait, just wonderful.
>>220488957I save around 3000 Euro in stocks per month, I doubt many americans do that , much less "several times" as much
>>220489043What'd you do? You are definitely not the average German. Most people on Earth don't put away $3000/mo in savings.
>>220489005It isn't bait, I've visited Europe many times and it's true. The only countries in Europe that were worse than America in the aggregate were Denmark and Germany.
>>220487780European science all goes to America, America will hire them with 10x pay
>>220489043and how does your income compare to the average German PhD student (who get paid like 4.5k pre tax)?
>>220489106Give me an example, because I bet when factoring in social programs and cost of living the gap isn't as big as you think. If you have a PhD in a good STEM field, you'll make ~$150k starting in industry (less in academia). What is the starting salary in Europe (choose a country will high salaries).
>>220489097the women are jumping on your dick because or your passport, you retarded faggot
>>220489169Also, then tell me what you'd pay in rent, groceries, and transit? Undoubtedly all less than an American.
>>220489169>in Europenigger there is literally a 5x difference across eurocunts in terms of salaries.the best salaries for anyone are simply in the couple of cities where American corporations pay American salaries, like Zurich and Munich
>>220489172No modern European woman wants to live in America. I did well with Western European women, Eastern European women hated me.
>>220489207That's why I said choose a EU country with higher salaries.
>>220489253The local salaries are all shit. CoL after rent is the same everywhere. We've got the same grocery prices as you. The only real difference is real estate. Shit like gas is actually way more expensive here. Social programs only exist in western europe - here we pay a huge social insurance tax but still need private health insurance to get anything but urgent life saving care.Also comparing "Europe" with America makes no sense. You're a single country, we're 27. It's actually very difficult to move countries for anything but menial labor. You can move to a worse country easily but not to a better one.I haven't lived in Germany, I don't know how it works out in practice. But if a typical PhD student makes 4.5k pre tax, they get 2.8k after tax, and after rent that's only 1400 euros for everything else - groceries, commuting, everyday shopping, discretionary spending.
>>220487780The fuck? In Germany the standard salary of a PhD student is around EUR 55K gross (public sector pay group E 13). And in several countries, like the Netherlands or Switzerland, PhD students typically earn more than they do here.
>>220489369for an early career postdoc you can add maybe 500-1000 euros to that, if they're lucky.
>>220487780phd gets paid 1300 euro/month here
>>220489618yeah but you live with your mom, you don't need any more
>>220489043americans make 3k dollars a week
>>220489479Literally half that from any program in Germany I researched. And that def isn't enough for me to have to live in Germany. Netherlands was about 3000 euros/yr. And I didn't look in Switzerland, but I imagine it is probably high there.
>>220489648Sorry, 3000 euros/mo in NL
i got offered a phd, but the subject was shit and i was expected to teach exercise classes and grade exams. basically be a slave to the prof for minimum wage for 4 years so i can have two extra letters to my title (yes, i do in fact have a title protected by law, "ir." but doesn't really exist outside belgium)
>>220489479>>220489648Oh wait I see what's happening here. The 40-52k/yr stipend in the USA is for part-time work in addition to your PhD work, whereas the 55K euros/yr in Germany is for full-time work in addition to your PhD work.
>>220489692>doesn't really exist outside belgium)most eurocunts protect the engineer title by law but they're not transferable and they're irrelevant anyway, the entry level degree nowadays is a MSc/MEng
>>220489648It doesn't depend on the "program". Virtually all PhD students in Germany are hired under E 13 TV-L, and their salary is determined by law. These are the current values, so in their first year they earn 4629.74 per month, 4967.01 starting from their second year, and 5220.71 starting from the fourth year.
>>220489843Please see: >>220489804
>>220489804>The 40-52k/yr stipend in the USA is for part-time work in addition to your PhD work, whereas the 55K euros/yr in Germany is for full-time work in addition to your PhD work.Huh? The PhD positions here may or may not include teaching, both are common. This does not affect the salary.In the US, the stipend is almost always subject to teaching (assistance) duties.
>>220489804the 55k in germany is what you get paid for everything, dumbass. it's the FTE rate (full time equivalent). why can't americans get it through their thick skulls that being a PhD student in Europe is WORK first and foremost? you enroll as a student and might get a tiny bit of cash in some countries but your primary income is from the place that employs you for research and/or teaching duties
>>220489812we have a bunch of engineering titles, but that you knew i was talking about engineering i guess you're not dumbffs. another engineering course went from being not university to university so now we have two masters in engineering but different, one being ing. and the other ir. (the hard one, thank you massive ego. my only real accomplishment in life). and then bio-engineers, and engineer-architectsat least it's not like in anglo countries where everyone and their grandmother is called an engineer. but on topic, yes being a phd student here suckswhy study a needle in a weaving machine and have to get your papers published or earn double or tripple that in the industryso it's ir. and not dr. ir.
>>220489945Have you ever actually looked into a PhD in your country? Because I did. Go read the websites and position postings. This guy is right: >>220490029The rate you are citing is the 100% FTE rate, whereas the US one is the 50% FTE rate. And a majority of the ones I see on Germany paid a 50-65% FTE rate, so half what you are citing.
>>220489843>their salary is determined by lawbut that's like communism bro
>>220490406>two masters in engineering but different, one being ing. and the other ir. (the hard one, thank you massive ego. my only real accomplishment in life)does it go on top of a 4-5 year engineering bachelors or a 3 year bologna one? here the system is that engineering bachelor's have higher credit totals and some additional practical placement requirements which means they hand you some sort of industry association certificate in the end in addition to your academic credentialthe systems are all different and incompatible but the idea is the same, that engineering is a certified "profession" like electrician and plumber and lawyer and whatnot. it's just that the requirements are kind of a joke so nobody cares.
>>220490518>here the system is that engineering bachelor's have higher credit totals and some additional practical placement requirements which means they hand you some sort of industry association certificate in the end in addition to your academic credentialwhich I should clarify works out to your "bachelor's" degree being 4-5 years rather than 3 as in some academic fields. then you can get an engineering master's on top which can also add another professional cert on top but that's way less common and not all the programs do it.
well higher education is a meme in evropa at this point since half of the population has done it
>>220490518one is a three year bachelor and a one year master, the other is a three year bachelor and a two year master, but one is highly theoretical while the other one is aimed at being practicalquite a lot do a programme where they also do the harder variant. it takes 6 years instead of 5. we had a bunch in class and i don't want to look down like an elitist cunt because that's what i would have done if i failed, but my IQ radar didn't go off being around themall the struggle and shit i've seen, yes i do bear my title with pride even if it's meaningless outside this shithole. what did you do if i may ask? it seems that you know what you're talking about
>>220490798>it takes 6 years instead of 5.I guess our equivalent would then be a "leading engineer" cert you get if you take a 2-3 year engineering master's on top of a 4-5 year engineering bachelor with a normal engineer cert. the coursework contents depend entirely on the programme, I've looked at a bunch and they're all over the place.I just wanted to see how your titles map to ours, it seems like the "ir" thing is kinda like our "leading engineer" cert. all engineers have to do the "ing" equivalent which you get after a 4-5 year bachelor's but the leading cert only comes after a master's
>>220490958yeah... it's indeed difficult to translate. i did my bachelor, then a two year master, and then i graduatedthey did their bachelor, a one year master, then graduated. then followed an education plan to also do our master so they have the same degree as meread on a forum about a prof telling they score significantly below average but that's hearsay. and i have met plenty but eh, human beans doing the best they can. don't want to be an ego tripper and none have wronged me in any way, it's just that i got bollocked for years while they took the easy route and have the same piece of paperbut yes you're correct outside belgium it has little meaning and that makes me slightly salty. we both have a master in engineering but try to explain to a foreigner why and how they're different
>>220491661>we both have a master in engineering but try to explain to a foreigner why and how they're differentafter 3 years in the workplace nobody gives a fuck what your degree was in anyway
>>220491793trust me, they care. maybe not on the work floor but HR and recruitment ask questionsi'm a theoretical idiot so they expect me to know a bunch of theory and curbstomp information in my head overnight. bit different than knowing how to tighten a bolt so it doesn't snapi guess you get the idea. enough about me. what about you? you seem quite familiar with engineering shenanigans
>>220492019>HR and recruitment ask questionsa couple years in they really don't care, it's all about your work experience, who you know and reputation>what about you? you seem quite familiar with engineering shenanigansPhD. don't wanna get overly specific because after a certain point it becomes a very small world.
>>220492413based paranoid autist. you smell like me, except i don't really care anymorewhat field at least, and how many years. i did electro-mechanical engineering with a heavy focus on thermodynamics and aviation. and that phd offer, it was masochism even i refused. enough is enough
>>220487780what are you doing your PhD in, anon?
>>220492780>how many yearsseveral before PhD during undergrad and masters, then a couple since PhD. plus the PhD itself obviously. you really can't be careful enough they are always watching: >>220493001this entire country only gets like 50-100 PhDs every year across all STEM fields so even the field is best left non-specific.
>>220493202>they are always watchingtoo late, I have used this replay to triangulate your position and have sent a mossad squad to take your silverware
>>220493313
>>220493202i understand. less than 2m people. belgium has quite a bit more, and i have quite a lot of frens who did a phd even in my field so i'm not too worried i'll get doxxed with the info i gave ITT. and even if mossad does, so what. i'm not an iranian nuclear expert.
>>220493313owari da
>>220493001Neuropharmacology. Hoping to work on DMT research, I got some experience at my undergraduate at UC Berkeley. All the research is trying to make synaptoplastigens by removing the psychoactive effects which would be good for money, but after I hopefully patent a drug that does that I want to do try to create a psychedelic retreat, there's already some project going on in New Hampshire so joining those would be cool.
>>220493813>Neuropharmacology>synaptoplastigenslong words, had to look them up>I want to do try to create a psychedelic retreatlike happy pills for boomers to take on their death bed? or anti PTSD stuff?
>muh moneyyou get paid enough at both placesmoney is a tool, not a goal
>>220493984tf tp et cetera
Are you brown or asian, OP? You won’t be welcomed over there if you are so it’s kind of moot anyway, kek
>>220493892I hate Boomers so there will be an age limit in my ideal fantasy. It will be all purpose, but of course special programs for PTSD and depression etc. New Hampshire passed a law to allow use of psychedelics in specific counties, without the need for it to treat a disorder or anything I believe. So it'll be even just for people who want to try them or need some creative burst etc.
>>220494237I'm White (a Irish and Italian mutt freak)
>>220494439how does mixing two non-whites produce a white
>>220494423good luck with that
>>220494439>I'm White (a Irish and Italian mutt freak)WTF!!!! , of course you don't
>>220494875Of course I don't what?>>220494460Negative times a negative = positive. And you say you have a doctorate lmao
>>220494504Thanks friend
