What would this part of the world be like if it had never been colonized by Russia?
>>221642605Being objective here. Russian empire was a huge plus for us and a lot of us joined it willingly. Soviet Union was a shithole which sent us back at least 50 years though. A lot of modern Georgian nationalism was created in saint petersburg unironically everyone of note from Georgia in the 19th century was educated in Russia. Current Russian state is much closer to soviet union than it is to Russian empire
>>221642605No one would consider it european, first of all. It'd be seen as what it is, a distinctively middle eastern region
>>221642605
>>221642605We joined willingly.Also after jews overthrew Russian monarchy and 1st republic it was Georgians, Stalin and co who overthrew them and ruled them for decades, made them an industrial state and won the otechestvennaya voina.In the first place it was basically Beria who had his spies steal the US atomic plans right under their nose and it was under Georgians chads that Russia became a nuclear superpower.Aleksandr Nadiradze also gave them mobile ICBMs to launch those nukes with.WE WUZ. After Georgian rulers the Soviet Union was immediately sold out and then disintegrated.Currently we are done carrying them and you can immediately see the consequences they can’t even take over Ukraine….
>>221643325After Georgian rulers were gone*
Literaly a much bigger shithole than it is now and no different than their neighbours in the Middle east. At least Ziggers kept the Mudslimes from chimping out
>>221642605It would ironically be less Muslim. A bunch of the northern tribes converted only to Islam in the last 200 years to resist Russian expansion.
>>221643478Why? I imagine of Russians didn't attack they would be less likely to be Islamists
>>221642605They would have genocided each other long ago
Despite all the mishaps, wars and even fucking genocides, I think USSR was beneficial to everyone including CaucasiaCaucasians never had a rest ever since the times of Macedonian Alexander
>>221642605Circassians would still exist.
>>221643748WE Wuz and have been here since the dawn of time albeit./we/ witnessed entire nations disintegrate such as Albania, Byzantines/rome etc and still survived through all of that. We will likely witness more shit disintegrate in the near future kek
>>221643893Georgia also disintigrated from 15th till 20th century though
>>221643954Into mini kingdoms such as Imereti, Kakheti etc. Those mini kingdoms still managed to exert enough power to repel countless invasions from our not so friendly neighbors albeit and then kinda united again. Although I will admit it was a close one.
>>221643188based mindbroken churka
>>221643797It wasn't the 90s completely negated everything that the soviets built and our economy fell by 75 percent. We had neither leadership nor any actual competent people to lead the country or do anything really. Georgia disintigrated into sub saharan africa levels of shitholeness with civil wars and crimes. Our boomer Generation ,which grew up on donations from moscow and being completely unproductive ,was the worst generation we ever had. They continue to destroy this shithole to this day. Again being a part of soviet union cost us at least decades.
>>221643325just go die in a trench jamboy
>>221644134Completely forgetting the purge of anyone over the iq of 90 from stalin and 300k Georgians dying for some slavshit germ quabble which didn't concern us in the slightest.
>>221643239ta gueule espèce de zègre
>>221642605Assuming that neither the Turks, Russians, nor Persians had colonized us, we and the Armenians would most likely be among the first democracies and really developed.Now, it's quite meh.In the past 200 years, we experienced every types of people and systems.
>>221644012How come you guys and Armenia isn’t the same country?
>>221644012Also just to add in the examples I mentioned I guess the correct term would be extermination not disintegration.Byzantines don’t exist anymore. This new Albania is not Caucasian Albania it just has the same name. What I’m trying to say is that we witnessed literal nations just die out completely.As for our disintegration into smaller kingdoms and duchies that was a close call because that’s the final stage before complete annihilation but those smaller kingdoms managed to endure and then we united again, although of course it’s a far cry from our past glory it still beats getting completely wiped out like many other nations.
>>221644242>we and the Armenians would most likely be among the first democracies and really developed.Literally why would that even happen? Armenians weren't even the majority anywhere besides Karabagh highlands when Russians conquered the region.
>>221644305Long story short
>>221643188I think many misinterpret russia as being backwards pre-ww1 when it was rapidly industrializing faster than when it was communist without purging and killing half the country
>>221644311I mean we lost parts of shida kartli to ossetians and Abkhazia was completely overtaken by foreign tribes. Not even talking about tao or anything. Yeh we endured but saying it didnt cost us is retarded
>>221644242Persians weren't that bad before they became Muslim though, were they?
>>221644389I’m not saying it didn’t cost us anything what I’m saying is that unlike many other nations which are completely dead and gone meanwhile we are still here. >>221644305We were at one point during Georgia’s golden age.What’s the point now though? we’d be taking on extra burden for no reason not to mention they don’t want that either.
>>221644242If we were given 100+ years of independance without foreign intervention we would be at about Romania-Greece levels of development. There is a hard limit to what churka nation can achieve. But that would be miles better than what we have right now.
>>221644326>Literally why would that even happen?Because the moment we got our short-lived freedom from Russia, we chose the democratic route and even allowed women to vote. Imagine that in the early 1900s. So, if not for Russia, we would most likely have become a democracy after the French Revolution. And assuming the Persians had not colonized Armenia, they would almost certainly have followed the same path.There are lots of assumptions, but the fact is that we despised the systems we were under, all of them after our kingdom fell.
>>221642605An even bigger shithole due to Turkish/Iranian influence.
the cuckasus
>>221644573Retard
>>221644542Oh and almost forgot to mention, we are still here with our language and writing intact.For example the Irish can’t speak their on language anymore.
>>221642605The region would be even more backwards and people would be even more retarded
>>221644622Have you been to Turkey for your hair transplant yet ?Any turkish backwater mogs over-sentimentalized romanticized glorified glamourized top imperial / commie legacies.
>>221644813Why
>>221644849Ottoman empire and current turkish state are different things altogether. The icelander is right before Russian empire this "country" was devided and completely destroyed by countless invasions from the turks, iranians and north caucasians. Russia became the same force of evil for us in the 20th century through 21st century
>>221644751How is that retarded?Unlike other kingdoms, Georgia was incredibly tolerant. Why do you think the Caucasus has so many ethnic groups? We literally had a female king, and unlike many other monarchs, she was known not only as a great ruler, but also for deliberately avoiding torture, mutilation, executions, and other brutal practices.And this was generally true of many Georgian kings as well. Now compare that to what Europeans or Middle Eastern rulers were doing at that time. Many of them were brutal as fuck.So our next step after that would probably have been democracy, or at least some kind of mixed system between monarchy and democracy. Georgian people aren't made for fascism / communism. It's not compatible with us. Monarchy or Democracy. That's pretty much what we can live with without an issue.
>>221644758>irish Btw before I go. I asked Chatgpt why this was a thing and it gave me some interesting answers. Probably relevant to the thread.
>>221645174
>>221645084Talking about 1921 year Georgia as something completely free of Russia is retarded. Anyone of note there got their education, career and built their lives in Russian empirial system. Now you start talking about middle ages which is completely irrelevant to 20th or 19th century realities. The truth is that Russian education and institutions brought us a lot of good and reawakened our Georgian identity which was devided and blurred. If not for Russians we would be completely destroyed by the muslims. You have to read what Russian diplomats say of kartl kakheti in the 18th century. They talk of complete destruction and backwardness how every single village was raided by north caucasians and every major city destroyed by foreign powers.
>>221643893but albania is right there next to us tho
>>221645378Bro, those are not the same dudes.The original ones got absorbed by us, Armenians and other countries around us.
>>221643655What? Muslims were "islamists" from the very, very beginning of their creation til the current day.The whole "muh reackshon to western obbreshon" is ridiculous gaslighting from the death cult.
>>221645341Even IF what you say is true we already repaid that by making them a nuclear superpower and more.They’re on their own now.It’s not my problem.
>>221645413were they the azeri ones? or was that iberia
>>221645072>completely omitting the fact of backstabbing at Krtsanisi which enabled annexation instead of the protectorate, along with systematic robbing and deconstruction of our statehoodbased whitewasher
>>221645587Would not say robbing as there wasnt really anything to rob quite contrary they moved a lot of resources here Georgis of late 19th centiry was much richer than before Rusdja. They did deminish our sovereignty that much is true. But again i am still firmly on the opinion that Russian empire in the 18th-19th centuries was beneficial for us. The best case scenario is that we would have gotten independance in 1921 and stayed a free country outside of commie delusions.
>>221645768please read a book before (You)ing me, sweatie
lots of people with acute zegroidosis ITT
>>221645768>>221645998You guys are completely missing the point, ready this again.>>221643325We W U Z.The point is that we don’t owe anyone anything and just like the anon mentioned that realities of Middle Ages don’t matter for 19th century Georgia.The same way those realities don’t matter for 21st century Georgia.We already carried them enough. The situation in the world right now is completely different. Those slavs are killing each other without Georgian BVLL leadership they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing.Europeans meanwhile are fucking suiciding. In the Middle East it’s a complete clusterfuck. Meanwhile China is becoming a world hegemon.It’s a very funny situation. Meanwhile Georgia is /developing/Just chill and enjoy the ride you guys. Everything is going to be a ok.
>>221646236On the internet:>We W U ZIn reality:>*Soup slurping noises*
>>221642605Georgia and Armenia are probably going the be the best anyway
>>221646236>Meanwhile Georgia is /developing/Yeah sure, we won't exist in 100 years
>>221646344Kek
>>221646445You liberals won’t. Because it’s just a meme ideology. Meme ideologies don’t last too long.
>>221646485are liberals in this room with us right now
>>221645413no shit retard
>>221646521Well if you didn’t notice the moment liberalism got in the way of corpos and certain elites they immediately dialed down on some things like trannies. For example remember how in the US they immediately dialed down on trannies in the army and so on and on and we were thinking oh did the US really wake up? And it turns out that was just getting in the way of military industrial complex and they were preparing for Iran war all along hence why they dialed down on some of the extreme shit.An ideology that can just be taken back with a snap of a finger is a complete joke.They may be able to fool the domesticated Europeans with that but not us bro. You can’t fool us.>take medsAlso a meme
>>221646485Dumb qocnigger
>>221646672ain’t reading any of thatkeep being mindbroken by a fictional dichotomy and fictional label partisanship
>>221646754>>221646804Uh oh melty
>>221642605This territory could have become a disputed region between Persia and the Ottoman Empire, Armenia would not have figured in it, and the British would have also exerted influence there. Georgia and Azerbaijan could have become vassal states. the USSR could have lost World War II, along with Britain and the United States, and the wars that occurred in this region after the collapse of the USSR would not have occurred....
>posts dumb horseshit ragebaits>receives a due backlash>uh oh, meltyyyy
>>221646672Whichever ideology will breed the most competence will win in the end. Western capitalism has clearly acumulated the most human capital as of know so they are the top dogs. China is getting better per capita they are still far from good
>>221646878>Georgia and Azerbaijan could have become vassal states. Wdym? Azerbaijan wouldn't have existed without Russians
>>221646961Azeris are a huge part of Turkey, half of Iran is full of them.
>>221646930Competence…..competence….depends on what kind of competence are we talking about because the current European leaders are an absolute disaster from Blackrock Merz to whoever the other puppets are.Btw the lack of competence and of course greed is also the reason for some of the more senseless wars that are happening right now.But anyhow we’ll see how things go in the future. See you guys around.
>>221646344
Why are Georgia-related threads on int so abysmal nowadays?
Libtard bros ?
>>221647401you guys should make your own general
>>221647462We have a gen but I’m tired of being the sole baker.
>>221646961the country was divided among Khanates. From thus perspective, yes, i mean it couldn't exist as a separate country but more than through vassal relations of khans to superior force. But let's also not forget national movements happened during 19 century could have impact on this too. desu, it is hard to predict instantly. requires more information and time. i could say that Ottomans chances in 20th century to take this region could be higher than Persian's. But it also depends on Brts - they appeared there after 1917 but had to retreat. If we think from Azerbaijan perspective - what they have now? totally corrupted mafia government who steals the and oppress own people. It could be better if they have joined Ottomans and later Turkiye because within turkish state they had better opportunities. Yes, USSR brought education there, but it stole oil completely, and the economy was highly integrated with other union members. USSR did a lot of bad to Azerbaijani elites and tried to assimilate them.
>>221647462We're /int/ vampires. We rather take over other threads and drain joy and sanity out of them
>>221647559so favstian…
Feels so nice I can understand politics in any part of the world because now everyone is split into MAGA and le lib camps. Or they just put the other party into either of these two because they fee fee that way.
>>221643188>Soviet Union was a shithole which sent us back at least 50 years thoughSocially? What about economically, did USSR build you up and if they did do you think you could have achieved the same economic level as an independent country that isn't connected to their bloc. As far as I know Georgia was a net beneficiary according to some (((stats))) I've seen, that's why I am asking honestly and in good faith.
>>221647532>But let's also not forget national movements happened during 19 century could have impact on this too.i imagine if they hadn't been colonized by russia they simply would have been properly integrated into a recentralizing iranian state and swept up in iranian nationalism>i could say that Ottomans chances in 20th century to take this region could be higher than Persian's. why?
>>221647462Not gonna work. Unlike other nationalities, we can’t be put in the same place without attacking each other.
denouncing libtards is a compensatory beta-male chud dogwhistle
excuse me i said the cuckasus
>>221649022I give you the “posted it again award” and the “he said cuckasus twice” awardthank you for your service
>>221649073thank you
>>221642605It would have become the Sultanate of Caucasian Turkestan.
>>221642605Kurdified astagfirullah
>>221649189Uuhh, actually we defeated Turkey at Khresili battle ON OUR OWN and just ended up being satelites.Our sworn enemy was Iran
>>221648626>i imagine if they hadn't been colonized by russia they simply would have been properly integrated into a recentralizing iranian state and swept up in iranian nationalismYou are talking about 181x 182x years. National movement in ME started much later. What iranian could do is to convert sunni's to shias.national movement could overthrow iranians with help of turkish mil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sattar_Khanhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_crisis_of_1946Potential for turk self-determination in Iran is still high.>why?because Ottomans were stronger military, and Iran had problems in 191x years. check Nuri Pasha Caucasus campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuri_Killigil
Albanians are really bizarre because they're a vestigial people leftover from antiquity in a hotly contested region where they theoretically shouldn't exist anymore, but they still do.
If it wasnt for russia Chechnya probably still would be pagan.
>>221650534Imagine the kinoVgh
>>221650609>Imagine the kinoThey'd just be bigger, funnier Ossetians
>>221650691nah, Chechens like being religious radicalsjust imagine a fundamentalist paganmaxxer country ruling the northern slopesvgh
>>221645084You are just an ignorant libtard shilling your ideology.
>>221650923yeah, libtards made democracy.
>>221650957based libtard chads
>>221650905>Chechens like being religious radicalsI thought Chechnya was really relaxed and more tribal than religious before the 1990s
>>221650957How is that a counter to what I said? Liberal democracy is an ideology associated solely with decline and lack of quality. You should be deported to Democratic Republican of congo, i bet you are some mutt and not fully georgian.
>>221651024They worship kadyrov's father now, they don't care for following Islam correctly that much.
>>221651063>Liberal democracy is an ideology associated solely with decline and lack of quality.In what way are we declining?
>>221642605It was either Russia, Ottomans or Persia. There's no possible scenarios where a bunch of small states that go to war at each other, would be independent for long.
>>221651140In every way that matters.
>>221651024>I thought Chechnya was really relaxed and more tribal than religious before the 1990sit is still tribal. The call it Teip. radicalization started after the fall of USSR but not immediately. I guess it was Brits who ruling radicals in Chechnya against Russia with help of Saudi/Gulf cunts sponsorship. Arab radical fighters fighters also participated in battles against Russia. iirc, Russia wiped quarter of Chechnya population and had to put old KGB agent's son into the position when his father was killed. btw, Russia subsidize Chechnya expenses from federal budget.
>>221642605worse because persia/turkey would fill in instead
>>221651063based mindbrokenmaxxer
>>221651236criteria so fictional and irrelevant you’re too embarrassed / incompetent to even formulate
>>221651228based false-trichotomy-maxxer
>>221642605Ottoman
>>221651340>I guess it was BritsOh come on lol you guys played a role in it too, don't be so coy.
>>221647941>Georgia was a net beneficiary according to some (((stats)))sure, relative to east slavic republics. still a loss in absolute termsall while devastating the national culture and replacing traditional ways of living with ones dependent on russia
>>221649794>What iranian could do is to convert sunni's to shias.why would theythe provinces that later became azerbaijan were all shia majority >national movement could overthrow iranians with help of turkish mil. i just don't see why shia turks would conspire to overthrow iran. the example you posted really only happened because of soviets and their occupation was made easier by already having territory south of the caucasus. it would be harder to pull off the same thing in a world where russia never colonized any azeri majority territory and where its cultural influence would be even lower. azeri turks that remained in iran never developed some separatist movement really and with even more turks inside iran they would be even closer to parity with persians so why bother breaking off desu.
>>221651776What people fail to mention is that we invited them here.Erekle II gave Russia a crucial political and military foothold.Russia gained legitimacy to station troops and interfere in caucasian affairs and Georgia became a strategic corridor through the Caucasus. And Russian involvement in regional politics deepened rapidly afterward.Naturally they didn’t really help us at all in the beginning they waited until we got considerably weaker, we won battles of Khresil and Aspindza and others all on our own. We effectively got rid of Ottomans here through our own efforts. But even with the Ottomans sort of taken care of Erekle II found himself in an incredibly difficult position because of the Persians and losing Krtsanisi. Of course the dude who invaded got assassinated right after that battle kek but the damage was already done.In general they’re lucky we were cooperative and didn’t hook up with Persians or Ottomans completely. In that case they would’ve never held anything here. Persians in fact were telling Erekle to reconsider and their invasion was in direct response to him bringing the Russians here.Of course even without our support they would’ve tried to gain a foothold here though I really really doubt that they would be able to achieve that and things would go that well if we were let’s say Muslim and linked up with everyone around us. Even now we’re considered as sort of nucleus of this place and things like middle corridor project and others won’t work out without us.
>>221653531Ok buddy, now go back to leftypol and stop bithering everyone.
>>221642605i just know the muslim countries in this region would be much more chuddy if it wasn't for the soviets
