>What language(s) are you learning?>Ask questions about your target language!>Help people who want to learn a new language!>Participate in translation challenges or make your own!>Do not reply to the Jordanian!!>Make frens!Read the wiki:https://4chanint.miraheze.org/wiki/The_Official_/int/_How_to_Learn_A_Foreign_Language_Guide_Wiki**Comprehensible Input Wiki**https://comprehensibleinputwiki.org/wiki/Main_PageUseful links:>Free language‐learning book archive:https://mega.nz/folder/INlRkAQC#CthKI9-_kmDNyrOx12Ojbw>Books on linguistics and language courses:https://mega.nz/#F!Ad8DkLoI!jj_mdUDX_ay-8D9l3-DbnQ>Assorted language resources and some nice visual guides:https://pastebin.com/ACEmVqua>Torrents with more resources than you’ll ever need for 30 plus languages:https://archive(dot)ph/x0dFH>Russianon’s list of comprehensible input resources:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wXd0V32TjCFsr1-F_en_lA4MI-i7JtyYf26cWLtPRec>Massive collection of textbooks on various languages, sorted by familyhttps://theswissbay.ch/pdf/Books/Linguistics/>/lang/ inpoot torrentshttps://rentry.org/inpoot>Refold Anki deckshttps://rentry.org/refold>Non-English piracy siteshttps://fmhy.net/non-englishOld: >>223619445
I'm going to commit today! I am 38 years old but I believe I can do it! I'll learn Japanese so fast people will be amazed!
>>223690417the automaticity that comes with actually consistently doing a half hour of pimsleur daily is the type of stuff that impresses locals and makes them surprised you've only been learning 1-5 months. It's surprisingly efficient for the time investment.
>>223686258>I cannot help but ask why croatiani know some people in BiH and went there before and liked it, and wanted to go more times. i then thought, ok, maybe it wont be the most effective use of my time to learn the language, but ill probably enjoy learning it even if i suck, and when i travel there again, it will make the experience better.as i started looking for learning content, most of it is in the Serbian or Croatian norm. I like the standard Croatian norm better in how it is written and how it sounds, and also dont want to learn cyrillic at the moment. now that ive started learning it, id like to travel to Croatia in addition to BiH.
>>223692250Never give up, anon.
Critical period is a meme
when speaking English do you use a retroflex r or buncher r?I realized that some words I used retroflex-y r that I find hard to pronounce (e.g. 'world', 'girl'), and requires more movement of the tongue so it also slows my speech. Some sound combinations come out slurred too, usually with 'r' or 'w', such as saying "world wide web" quickly.I've been practicing with bunched r and it seem to help a bit, I think. The issue is that I still revert to the old ways of pronouncing because of all the muscle memory.I actually tried reverting to my french-r since I think it sound clearer and probably easier to understand (for brits and international speakers), but same issue with reverting back to my busted accent. Since it will take work might as well go for native r sound.Is it possible to change an accent past the beginner stage?
>>223692322Ok, so my plan isn't stupid. Thanks.223691567 I'm a weeb a little but I don't like vtuber stuff and don't like most of new anime and manga. I'm a weeb archeologist Also I believe that it is impossible to learn Germanic languages from songs (unlike Romance languages), at least not at the initial level, due to the often strange pronunciation / enunciation. Unless you analyze the written text, but then I prefer something other than the vtuber songs lyrics. But thanks for the tip, maybe I'll come across something interesting and then I'll take a look at it.
What can I do in my country if I want to learn a foreign language with free internet resources but I just dont enjoy learning basic sentences instead of engaging with things that already interest me such as history, philosophy and theology on youtube?I was thinking about watching 10 minute or just short videos on youtube but generally I dont find language learning content creators to be engaging and obviously no content creator will make a video teaching German and talking about history intermitently.Are all language instruction content creators dull? I do find easy german to be really boringShould i just listen to stuff on the background while playing chess or try anki as a replacement for chess.com brainrot?
>>223694381I hope there's an exception in there for romance when it comes to French because that shit is hard for me pick out.I learned German through hours, and I mean hours of the song, just trying to mine words I could make out and try to figure out the sayings in context then go from there. German through metal was a fun ride for me.
>>223694474there's no shortcut, you have to get to like B2 or C1 to read about any of these topics (apart from maybe history) in your target language
>>223694474>history, philosophy and theologyhttps://www.youtube.com/@MrWissen2goGeschichte/videoshttps://www.youtube.com/@dr.waltherziegler2523/videoshttps://www.youtube.com/@einfach.religion/videosIt's doable if you use Language Reactor to do lookups/translation.
>>223694858I will check them out, thank you.
>>223694274>when speaking English do you use a retroflex r or buncher r?Yes
>>223694274I think retroflex shows up before a Dark L in the words you mentioned, where the L pulls the tongue back so the only way an R can be articulated in that moment is through the retroflex position. I'm sure there's more examples but I can't think of anymore to give, just be aware of the letter following the r that makes your tongue go back.
>>223694474like the serb said, dive in with tools and translations to assist you. Aside from pimsleur, i'm mostly just playing skyrim rn, but sometimes i just go to a bunch of philosophy books i picked up last time i was in Paris, or to some old literature, and read/understand what i can with a dictionary.Since you're Mexican, reading another Romance language should be quite accessible, and something people really underestimate is how accessible academic register is in romance/english if you're already educated since most of the vocab is shared. I call it "fake reading" but enough fake reading eventually becomes real reading.
>>223694677flatly untrue
My first two volumes of the french versions Monster came today, epic. Think I shall reread L’étranger to chapter 5 before I start that tho. I didn’t realise how obsessed the french are with manga so their translations are apparently phenomenal. It’s not over until I win.
>>223694474Brute force translations. Once you understand you TL’s grammar, just read books in the language. At first it is hellish, you will basically be translating pages one by one, but eventually you get to a point where you only need to translate a word of two per page.
I don't know if I made the right decision by returning to Italian as my side-quest. I've already spent some time on it, but I'm still starting almost from scratch and I feel torn between switching to a larger Romance language like Spanish or Portuguese or switching to Japanese>>223694274>Is it possible to change an accent past the beginner stage?Yes. You just need to pay attention to those words. The accent or the way you speak can even change in your native language if you spend a long time with someone with very characteristic manners>>223694474Do Pimsleur during chores. Anki is okay, although a bit robotic / synthetic. It's like lifting weights at the gym instead of learning to fight with a sword or work in the fields. >>223694570I believe it's because of not very clear vowels or however you can call it. I hate those motherfuckers
>>223695370A huge part of a brute force approach is to reread stuff you have previously ground out at a later date to get volume with relatively smooth reading. But yes, this is basically how many people learn Latin or Greek, or brute forcing is a substantial part of many programs after a certain period building a foundation.
>>223695567Yeah this is what I do with my French reading. I’ve probably read 600 pages on L’étranger (it’s like a 180 page book) but only 5 chapters. Also translating from your native to TL is even more hellish, but the pay off is insane. Really fucking slow. But worth it.
>>223695484>Do Pimsleur during chores.That is great advice honestly, but pimsleur is not in the free domain, so I would have to get something like torrent. >>223695370So youre saying you started reading philosophy/ history books in your tl before you became fluent? >>223695202thanks
>>223695671What's your TL?
>>223695671>So youre saying you started reading philosophy/ history books in your tl before you became fluent?Yeah. Not just philosophy or history, but novellas as well. In fact fiction might be more useful as the vocab is more “common”. You cannot become fluent in a language if you are not reading in that language. Once you have a foundation of grammar, start reading.
>>223695671>>223695743Anyways. Most of Pimsleur courses are for free at Telegram. Just search a channel with Pimsleur TL name
>>223695743I was thinking about Portuguese, Italian, German. The problem is i often fantasize with learning languages such as latin or ancient greek and I wish I could speak another language but I run into two problems1. Most language instruction videos are boring and the experience of learning words is not stimulating2. The opportunity cost is real. Every minute learning a language is a minute I wouldnt be learning about something else.I dont know if its just a fantasy, a passing thought or if I will genuinely commit to it. To be honest, as of late, ive begun to fantasize more about classical languages, but the online ecosystem is more optimized for modern languages and I think that if I do learn a classical language I would like to wait until I can do it with a book, purely for the experience of working through something like llpsi. I would like to read some literature in the original, such as maybe catullus, but idk the fantasy of learning a modern language justifies learning it, because i dont find the experience stimulating.
I’m still yet to find a language app or course that wasn’t a cope or absolute waste of time. Anyways, it’s not over until I win.
>>223696065Such as? Everything I learn is useless professionally, so I'm honestly curious (except maybe German but at my pace, this will be a useful skill in about 5 years or something)
>>223696169Its a really stupid fantasy but I was watching a video about the bible and so it intersects with the babylonian empire and I thought, what If I learned akkadian or sumerian? desu they seem more appealing right now than any modern language because ancient literature, history and civilizations are really cool but it probably will not materialize into anything. Idk programming? im not looking at it through a strictly employable lens, maybe you care about astronomy and then languages would take time away from that.
>>223696385forgot picrel
>>223696385I would think you'd want to learn one of their modern descendants of the languages before tackling the ancient ones, like Arabic or Hebrew or something. Not that I want to shill for that shit.
>>223696065¿Como aprendiste inglés? ¿Tienes algunos consejos? Si te gustan las idiomas romances, tú debes intentar el francés o catalán. Personalmente, el Occitania es mi idioma preferido
>>223696385Okay, I get it. I only have this problem with choosing a specific language to learn, because it's a significant investment of time, and I'm afraid it would have been better to choose another one. Besides that I mostly hobbymaxxx. Also, I thought programming is dead now
>>223696065it's just a hobby nigga
>>223696587Modern hebrew has a lot less literature that I would be interested in than ancient literature. I dont know much about arab lit, they have their own philosophical tradition but it is obviously less extensive than that of the west. I have not gotten into arabic language fiction.>>223696761Inicialmente viendo videos de yo soy holly, una mujer estadounidense que crecio entre Mexico y Estados Unidos. Tiene una personalidad muy magnetica/ vibrante. No se mucho del idioma occitano, el catalan tiene muy pocos hablantes y poca literatura, pero me gustan mucho los nombres catalanes como Adria.El frances no me gusta tanto esteticamente, es como una degradacion del latin con sonidos germanicos, pero si me interesa la sociedad y literatura francesa, entonces no se si lo aprendere o no.
>>223697263Than ancient hebrew*
The talmud and bible alone matter more than anything in contemporary hebrew>>223697140its much deeper than that
>average experience of learning a language as a 25-year-old unc
>>223694677You dont get to B2 or C1 without reading first. Just because you know grammar, does not mean you are at B2 or C1. Unless you a reading, whether it be newspapers, novellas, articles, fucking anything, you are not recognising grammars use. It is like collecting bricks, but not building the house.
>>223697425If you are older than 12 there is no point learning a new language. Give up and kill yourself IMMEDIATELY.
>>223697425that's just inpooters
>>223697140So basically, if you want to marry an ultra orthodox jewish woman you need to convert to judaism and learn ancient and modern hebrew, whereas if you want to become a muslim and marry a muslim woman you need arabic.Language is the tool through which you process reality itself. In can help you to understand philosophy better and or to understand the words you use in everyday life through knowing its roots. They become deeper.So for instance the word super natural sounds like a normal word, until you understand the concept of naturalism the idea that only what is observable in the natural universe exists and that only natural forces operate in it.So you see, different languages can lead to radically different life outcomes. Even from a cognitive perspective, modern languages force you to suppress other languages when youre in a conversation, so they may be more cognitively beneficial than ancient languages.
>>223697547I said earlier in the thread that I'm learning Japanese at 38, but you convinced me. I'm ending it, I give up on language learning.
>>223697832Is not over until you win.
>>223697547>don't study the language>kill yourself>get isekaied>everyone speak Japanese and you have to learn the language anyway
>>223697140In other words, the language you pick matters a lot because its the kind of literature and ethnolinguistic community you will interact with and that comes a set of variables such as IQ and metaphysical view of the world.So for instance if you want to interact with materialist heathens with a christian heritage and a high iq you learn German or French, if you want to interact with spiritual people who will throw rocks at you if you say you dont believe in God, you learn Arabic.The choice does matter.
>>223697425Imagine doing learner content for that long especially for such an easy language.
>>223697929It would actually be hilarious if we got isekai'd into a world in which everyone speaks the popular languages here (English, French, German, Spanish, etc.) and none of the NPCs are bilingual. Imagine missing out on the chance to be the hero.
>>223697962Do you speak Spanish?
>>223697576The whole idea was an n=1 experiment where an esperantist (who should have a substantial advantage with spanish) would rigidly do dreaming spanish’s AGL methodology rigidly to see if AGL is real or not. So like I don’t think he spoke at all until hour 1000 since that’s what dreaming spanish says to do. From what I recall of his vids he actually spends a lot of his time watching non dreaming spanish videos.I do recall seeing one guy with 2000+ input hours who could comprehend Spanish but couldn’t speak at all.
>>223696065LLPSI is pretty good, as well as other textbooks for Latin. I think that the quality of Latin learning material might be better than that of other languages. the focus on comprehensible input, on the reading method and similar things is very unusualyou'd expect ancient languages to be taught in more crusty, outdated ways
>>223697399No it’s not. Unless you have a specific reason to learn a specific language, then it is.>>223697633Are you marrying an ultra orthodox jewish woman or converting to islam?>>223697951Well this much is true, which is why I learned Latin. As a Catholic and a European. LLPSI is excellent btw per what that other anon said, and since you know Spanish the Vulgate, especially the gospels, are much more accessible to you if you have tools or a parallel translation day one.
Which English accent should I shadow? I'm thinking Sam Harris he's well spoken and has a standard american accent. He speaks a little slow but that doesn't really matter I think
>>223698607>Are you marrying an ultra orthodox jewish woman or converting to islam?no i was just trying to be funny but im retarded and not even in a way i can be funny
>>223698607I dont understand people who learn latin because they are christian. I feel like the best of latin literature is from the pagan period, also the vulgata is a translation, if they care about the bible why dont they learn koine greek or hebrew? I would like to read the bible but in English to improve my vocabulary and grammar in the language.
>>223698762Do the British accent. It's leagues better than General American. Don't let other people convince you otherwise. British or go home. BBC and that bullshit
>>223699040the Bible (at least the Old Testament) is written in a very simple style, you won't learn much reading it in English. it's also not really terribly interesting if you're not religious
>>223698762this seems like a pretty neutral onehttps://youtu.be/x7MvtQp2-UA?si=hgTPBaIMep8o4nOf&t=18
>>223699040Yeah idk we just do it for no reason I guess. We’re pretty silly like that.
I'm bored. I might start trying to learn words from wikipedia articles because it catagorizes every object so I could just start from a list and then just keep clicking on articles until I'm satisifed with everything I've learned.>>223699059>In before he decides on cockney english for some reason
>>223699059I already have an american sounding one, it's so much more work to do British plus 70% of English media I watch is American.People do report picking up the local accent but it takes years. The shadowing thing I see online is like 10 minutes a day for few months which I think helps more with perfecting foreign phonemes. But I'll see if it's possible
>>223699199sounds silly
>>223699059I also don't like RP that much. I like listening to scouse and scottish speakers. But ESL talking like that while living in a non english country is giga larp cringe. And ESL wagies don't understand those
>>223697832see: >>223697929>>223697951The great thing about major languages is that they're spoken in many countries, and their large populations make it worthwhile to create the music, art, literature, customs you enjoy or translate things. And even if there are other languages that produce better and more culture tailored to your tastes, you won't be left empty-handed. The worst thing is when you are greedy and like too many things>>223698471It's almost me with English>>223698762stereotypical French one, Scottish or some Appalachian one
Does anyone else have an issue of feeling like they're half deaf in their TL?I have the advantage of living in France and French is my TL but with living in the country the awkwardness of not being fully fleunt and the subtleties of communicating in a language you started learning as an adult start to be apparent.One of the things that bother me is that I always have to ask people to repeat themselves even for simple shit and I'm never a 100% sure of what I've heard. Anyone else experience this? I've been speaking French for somewhat of a while but there's still quite this unnatural feeling to it.
>>223699118I thought older translations used older grammatical forms and pronouns like hath, art, thou, shalt etc.
>>223699487You mean you are like mishearing them or struggling to understanding the words correctly? Hell even in english, if someone has a slightly different accent (drive to another city) I sometimes struggle to understand them. The solution is probably hammering in more listening input until your brain can recognize it and makes it more distinct the next time you hear it.
>>223699613It's like the quality of the words themselves are this mushy slippery soft thing that slips out of my hands on my first attempt of grasping then so I always needed it to be repeated so I'm *sure* of what they said.
>>223698762>Sam Harris he's well spokenLegit the worst fucking accent on the planet. I hate that awful yank standard shite
>>223699726French accents are fucked. Le seuls endroits(?) où je pouvais comprendre les gens était Nantes at Le Mans.
>>223699352You’re right, ESLs with a British accent do sound like they’re LARPing.>>223699040I don’t want to give a fleshed out response but I will say that St. Augustine is a greater and more significant author in the modern West than any of the pagan authors. And he only becomes more important if you look at pre-modern Europe. As to the rest of your question, I can’t even begin to respond in detail without it turning into a massive list of reasons, so I’ll just say that your question itself hints at a lack of knowledge about western civilization or the western literary canon in general.Of course, there are pagan-only grammarian elitists, but they’re LARPing more than anything. They’ve been around since Erasmus’s time, and he mocked them for it via his own impeccable Latin.
Will I get made fun of by native hispanophones If I talk in a Spanish accent? For whatever reason, I feel like it’s easier to pronounce.
>>223700037You will be forced to acquire an accent for correct pronunciation anyways.
>>223699199this some randomize accent button type shitbuild a bear for accents
>>223699754which one then mate?
>>223700037not really, it's much more common than the inverse, language simp has ceceo. A yuropean speaking with a mexican or chilean accent sounds retarded
>>223700274Your Swiss, you probably sound more well spoken than 95% of native speakers. I can guarantee I would much rather hear the average European speak English, even the French, over the average guy in my local pub.
>>223700274Just not anything American. Go Australian if you hate RP. Just ANYTHING but American.
BTW I found a fraud in /lang/tube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQB1bwimswThis nigga may have been posted here before but he does VRchat stuff where he stuns people because of his native accents. It matches his exact langs and levels in those langs (missing a few minor ones like dutch but I think those are duolingo tier), and he has chilean accent. Perhaps the only EspañolSecondLang that chose chileano.The lying part is that he says he's French, born and raised, but the post flag is Canadian. That is all.>>223700312I wish, I'm working on it. What's you thought on scouse? It's fun to listen on guys, but I'd kill myself with a scouse wife. >>223700439>Go Australian if you hate RPrather kms
>>223700000>I don’t want to give a fleshed out response but I will say that St. Augustine is a greater and more significant author in the modern West than any of the pagan authorsAristotle?
>>223700495>What's you thought on scouse? It's fun to listen on guys, but I'd kill myself with a scouse wife.Lmao, I find it funny and have had good fun with scousers, tho they can be absolute cunts sometimes. They dont even consider themselves English, which is fair considering they’re nearly all Irish descendants. Yeah, I would not marry one though. My favourite accents is Belfast, Derry or Donegal but only on women. On men it is terrifying.
>>223700495>he's French, born and raised, but the post flag is Canadian.Si c’est possible qu’il est québécois?
>>223700000Digits
>>223700608that's the theory. And it would explain a few things:>his perfect quebecois accent>knowing quebecois cities>his perfect north american accent>choosing chilean over castillian (but why not mexican we?)>choosing brazilian portuguese (not really, it's the now default one)but why would he lie about being French? He says he's from the French diagonal. Actually he probably just moved to Canada at some point and perfected his accents. If that's the case it gives me a bit of hope because all frenchies have the worst, most irredeemable english accents. Unless he moved at age 7
>>223700000Quints of Truth
>>223700558Aristotle wrote in Greek anon, the argument was about latin.>>223699040>if they care about the bible why dont they learn koine greek or hebrew? biblical greek is the easiest variety of greek, so many learn it after or alongside latin. some also learn a little hebrew.
Have to stay up until like 4pm today, so should get a lot of language work in. Hopefully get 100 solid pages of my book, and translate some texts in English to french
>>223700000>St. Augustine is a greater and more significant author in the modern West than any of the pagan authorsI think youre biased, city of God cannot be more important than on the republic.I mean, saint anselm of canterbury, Aquinas, some fathers of the latin church. The Church fathers wrote in greek, that was the lingua franca during the patristic era.But also, Christian apologetics are only relevant to christians and to christianity.
>>223700000I would say that youre right in that I was wrong about how important the latin language was for christianity but youre wrong when you say that Christian authors are more important and or transcendent than pagan Roman authors such as Virgil or Cicero.
>>223700000And you wont make a list because you cant, sorry, but to confute my own post, the answer, which idk why i didnt think of that, was that the Christians got divided between east and west. The western fathers wrote in Latin and the eastern (orthodox) wrote in Greek. I had watched a video about this division but I didnt think of it when I made my retarded post.
>>223701505I agree with you on nearly all your points but this entirely wrong. To go back to Augustine, he alone has influenced the modern world with his ideas. Christian apologetics may appear to be only relevant to Christians, but considering the entire West is moulded on Christian morality (or was, a lot of faggotry these days) everyone should find relevance with people such as Augustine
>>223701505Cope>>223701547I didn’t say transcendent, you inserted that, but I will of my own accord go ahead and say Confessiones is more transcendent than any work of Cicero or Vergil, in part because St. Augustine spoke of the true religion, which is like my objective and unbiased opinion dude.Also, I don’t know why you implied above that there’s some rigid dichotomy where Catholics shouldn’t learn Latin because the models of the language are pagans. The bishops of the last ecumenical council were so versed in Vergil they played a game where they would go around the room reciting the Aeneid until someone made a mistake. I’ve read from several pagan authors and intend to read the whole of the most important ones eventually. We wouldn’t even have these authors if Christians didn’t copy and study them as models of Latin prose continuously from the fall of Rome to today. I’ve read poetry by 8th century Irish monks in dactylic hexamater mehercle!>>223701652>And you wont make a list because you cant, sorrySeethe.>i had watched a video about thisIncredible source. Also why are you splitting up your posts lmao?
>>223701770I totally get why people don’t get City of God since it is an apologetic work, but Confessions is a monumental work of literature. I absolutely love St. Augustine’s style of Latin.Mexicanon unfortunately will have to learn Latin to get what I’m talking about so I don’t know how productive further discussion can be :-)
>>223699040Me neither. I'm personally learning Greek and Hebrew in part due to being able to read and appreciate the Bible, but also as a nice entrypoint into related languages like Aramaic and Lebanese Arabic.One of the biggest surprises is how remarkably understandable much of the text is even if I'm only learning Modern Greek and Hebrew. I guess it makes sense, I'm just reading, not writing texts.
>>223701869Looks like you scared Mexicanon back to his videos
>>223701826You clearly know more about this than me, I only got mad imc because you called me ignorant in a very condescending way, which is true honestly but earlier this morning I started reading a public domain version of the age of reason by Thomas paine to be a bit less ignorant.I wasnt sure that old editions are to be trusted but it is better than not reading anything at all.
>>223700000genuflecto
>>223702034Isn't modern hebrew fairly close to biblical hebrew, albeit a bit simplified? And yeah that makes sense for Greek, since I'm told Greeks find classical Greek odd because they recognize the vocabulary but not the grammar, and biblical Greek sentence structure tends to be simple.
Any shortcuts to learning a language? Any bullshit shortcuts people insist on that are funny?Got any training techniques you use to help you learn? I don't wanna watch a sloptuber tell me some of these in a 20 minute video trying to also sell a course.
>>223702054why on earth would an old version of a 250+ year old book be less reliable? But yeah grind the canon consistently and you'll be 10x as well read as most people you talk to in no time.
>>223702204I diligently do drills, read a grammar book, read, and play video games and watch media in the language, every day. And it's an extremely slow process.
>>223702204There are no shortcuts, only hours sweated and tears shed and tons of input with Anki
>>223702231In the introduction the editor says that there had been earlier versions of the book that were published, that contained mistakes/ alterations. I think he says Thomas, as any author, made some spelling mistakes that needed to be corrected but there was some kind of over correction, idk.What I do know is that academia today, given their access to previous translations and the professionalization of the field, provides better translations and they also would have better footnotes, a better introduction, but yeah I guess the real issue is when youre reading an old translation, since the original language of the book is English, it should not be an issue.I remember for instance when I opened a public domain version of Leviathan it had archaic spelling and no notes iirc.
>>223702231I guess sometimes the prose of an author can be a bit weird and the editors change it to make it easier to understand. I read a fraction of the introduction of Don Quixote and I feel like all the editors from the 18th and 19th century have an inclination to highlight how their predecessors made big mistakes but their work is great comparatively.
>>223702240What's a drill?>>223702280You just haven't found one yet.
>>223702204Brute force translations and a grammar textbook. ANKI as a support, but never a reliance. Don’t pick a language that is completely unrelated to your own unless necessary.
>>223702376>highlight how their predecessors made big mistakes but their work is great comparatively.They do that to this day. Everyone needs to justify their translation.But aren't you reading Paine in English since you can read English?>>223702384Pimsleur is a form of drilling. Anki is also a form of drilling. Sometimes I just read and/or write conjugation tables aloud over and over, for example.>>223702391LUTE is a great way to do brute-forcing since the ability to instantly go from a word to a fully parsed dictionary entry and grammar explanation, plus to pull up sentence-level translation, is unmatched. I used it to brute force the gospel of John when I was still about halfway though LLPSI.
I don't mind reading Christian authors or even about Christianity, in Latin or any other language, I just detest talking with actual Christians about such topics.
>>223702433>LUTEDubs. Is it a software or is this a term for something?
>>223702443>I just detest talking with actual Christians about such topics.Because you a probably talking to protestants. Then again, Catholics and Orthodox rarely go out of their way to talk about Christianity because they’re not annoying cunts.
>>223702384You ask if there's any shortcuts, then reply to people they just haven't found one if they say no to you. Yeah bro, good luck finding them
>>223702482There just isn't much to be discussed really unless you're religious as well, when I'm not. Debate is childish, naive and mostly based on sophistry and trickery which never changes anything. It's intellectual masturbation.
>>223702548I also said some meme shortcuts. Come on, you know there is terrible advice out there about languages that would definitely make you giggle.
>>223702619I prefer also to not debate these sort of things for similar reasons. Laity debates can sometimes be great for evangelism but a lot of the people that engage in it make regular errors, and they misrepresent what Catholicism even teaches, in an effort to put victory in debate over honesty. Really my best reason anyone *should* be Catholic, and to ALSO live a moral life, is because if you don’t your soul will be permanently separated from God’s grace upon your death and will suffer eternally. Unfortunately the only people who mention this are either criticizing Christianity or are making smug attacks pridefully believing their own salvation is guaranteed (which is why protestants are most prone to this rhetoric). God-fearing used to be an innocuous phrase because God is frankly terrifying (and comforting and loving) and I am terrified of Him. But it’s the plain truth, I believe.Even a man as virtuous as St. Augustine spent the last two weeks of his life in nonstop prayer for his salvation because the truth is that none of us are worthy on our own, only by the grace of God.
>>223702465software
>>223692250Language learning is actually easy, it just takes an unbelievably long time. Like eating healthy or something. It takes months or years to even notice a difference, and really Years like 10+ to look back and say "wow, sure glad I did that". But it's every day forever and if you fall off you lose it all, gradually.
>>223694274retroflex is right, you sound faggy and lisping if you do the other one. Your tongue tip should be absolutely stiff when you hit the hard R
>>223694474>anki as a replacement for chess.com brainrotBest way to start>language resourcesNo idea what's good in german, I assume there are "cute girls talk you through news stories in german" youtubers like there are in french. Once you get a grip on basic vocab through ankigooning and some footing in sentence structure and basic grammar through beginner-friendly resources like language waifus (not more than a couple months worth) you can move onto stuff you are into and just Input forever. Idk what is available in your interests for german but if it's on youtube, you can find somebody talking about it in a retard-friendly way to get started. You can also try watching dubbed versions of shows and movies you already know, since that existing knowledge will provide scaffolding for your limited language acquisition.>listening in the backgroundThis will not teach you anything on its own, but I do it anyway because I am convinced that filling my life with ambient background TL will make me more native sounding even if I retain no knowledge, like it helps with pronunciation or something maybe. Even in absence of memory it will improve "feels right" guesses by raw unconscious pattern exposure.tldr: you need to get a grip on the basics first. if you can't muscle through that you were ngmi anyway.
>>223695314There's a shit load of quality french dubbed and subbed anime too for the same reason. weeb nation
>>223703146How do i find these cute french news girls?
>>223698507>you'd expect ancient languages to be taught in more crusty, outdated waysThey are outside the hobby sphere. The Latin class I took in uni was 100% translation from Latin. We produced exactly zero (0) Latin sentences during a year of "learning" it.
>>223704514>The Latin class I took in uni was 100% translation from Latin.How did you find this method to be? It’s what I do, I find it to be difficult yet effective. Was it translations of Latin into your native tongue or did you do it both ways also?
>>223701869You know, you can get Bishop Challoner’s 1739 Early Modern English translation of the Saint Augustine’s Confessions on Amazon (he’s sometimes called Saint Austin in earlier English Hagiographic literature).
Deutschbrudis, I have two accents for German: one for usual speech because it is harder to master and I have to practice, the other to make it easier to say the letter R when dictating with voice-to-text on iPhone. The former is I believe is a Berlin accent and the latter I think is closer to an Austrian accent, but what do you think?1https://vocaroo.com/17T6CUPrXrCo2https://vocaroo.com/1pud7INUMCd3
nihao
If you want to make real improvement in your TLang by playing RPG games, you MUST replay every single dialogue tree translating it with Google Translate UNTIL you understand it, AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY.
Skyrim on Xbox 360 only comes in the language where the game is sold, at least for the physical release; I imagine for PS3 it’s similar. Skyrim on Xbox One - on the other hand - allows you to reinstall the game in your TLang if you switch your console settings to your TLang and it’s available for Skyrim; I imagine it’s similar for PS4 also.I wonder if the Mass Effect trilogy has this feature. Can anyone here try it out if you’ve got it?
Continue with Italian or switch to Spanish, Portuguese or Japanese?
>>223709765Tried this with KOTOR 2 and FF15 and ruined the games for myself lol
>>223709765this might turn your quick gaming sesh into a full time job
>>223702204>Any shortcuts to learning a language?Yeah, be young and move to TL country. Learning a language as a 25-year-old unc boomer is hell on earth.
>>223709177checked>>223709765just play the game and don't skip dialogue and engage as best you can, otherwise immersion turns into studying and defeats the point, which is full speed casual processing in context.
>>223712839Just focus on one language please bro.
>>223715073Onelanging it is truly the only viable way to reach fluency. I wish I knew this several years ago. Definitely could have made it by now.
>>223715073>>223715351No. I would dabble myself out of existence then. I have one language to practice every day, at least a little, no matter what (German) and a second language that I can change to another with a clear conscience (Italian for now but I have doubts)
>>223715564The problem with boomers learning language, they already have critical period loss to contend with, then they compound it with dabbling. Each minute on a dabbled language is one minute taken away from your main language. You're only hurting yourself anon.>>223715073
>>223715708>The problem with boomers learning language, they already have critical period loss to contend withWhat age does that kick in, and is it gender specific? I know men biologically peak at like 30-35, I wonder if that affects their intelligence also. I know the “brain is fully developed at 25” is a meme now.
>>223709765I tried this with sims 4 and it was honestly torture, I'm surprised I managed to learn english by doing that.
>>223716108It is legit the best way to do it. Constant reading until you can write. It is so fucking tiresome, but worth it
>>223715073>>223715351Yeah, we should really ban jordism as an ideology. They think they are him and want to study 3 or 4 different languages and somehow succeed unlike him in getting fluency. How hard is it to stick to one language?
>>223716672It's kind of entertaining to see, but yeah, I can't think of many examples of anyone who reached a high level in a language without being so obsessed/passionate about that one exclusive language that wasting time with any other language would be unthinkable.I've noticed with myself as well. There's something that happens psychologically when you only have one TL to concern yourself with, doing a dozen different things in that language doesn't seem so exhausting when you don't have other languages going on.
>>223716672It just tells me you either are not taking language learning seriously, or, thought very unlikely, you are a prodigy. Learning any language takes serious effort and is not a 5 hours a week rodeo. It has to be constant. You practically have to change your entire life in many ways. Doing like 3 languages at once is mental. Unless its just a general interest, but then why not take part in a linguistics forum instead?
>>223715708Every minute I don't spend on the dabble TL I won't spend on the main TL anyway.I have extra time to learn the language but limited desire to do the same
>>223716672could i beseech thee not to proscribe all those minor afflictions with which all the afflictioners commonly suffer from all to the renown of (1) one quinquantumple timing trickster
>>223717094I mean it kind of depends on the langs. Is french/spanish/italian really all that insane vs. say, russian/chinese/arabic?I’ve recently integrated French on top of my Latin and I haven’t found it difficult to maintain my prior investment in Latin at all. If anything I’m spending more time on Latin because I just feel less stressed about it. If before I struggled to hit 1 hour a day of latin now I’m hitting 4 hours a day of language work total by adding French.
>>223704727It made me hate Latin. It was all translations from Latin to German and the teachers were only satisfied if you used the exact German word taught in class, god forbid you use a synonym.
>>223718364>only satisfied if you used the exact German word taught in class, god forbid you use a synonym.Yeah that is genuinely stupid. My french teachers always said that as long as you capture the same meaning and theme, you were fine. Despite it making you hate Latin, did you find it effective regardless?
>>223718364>only satisfied if you used the exact German word taught in class, god forbid you use a synonym.Latin is unfortunately full of people like this who wouldn’t be able to read a page of Caesar unaided. Precision is important due to how dense the texts can be, but a lot of teachers produce less precise translation because of rigidity to this kind of strategy.In general Latin courses produce people 10x as good at criticizing others as they are of reading, and 10x as good at reading as they are at writing.
>>223718650I wasn't reading Latin with any sort of ease in class but I think it came in useful some time later when I decided to give it another chance with inpoot videos.
>>223691894GTA reference
>>223717094In the nicest way possible, are you an ESL? Because you wrote thought instead of though and your completely misunderstood my post. I was mocking learning several languages at once.
I missed my second language learning window and ended up watching reels instead learning the dabble language
>>223719253Good one.
>>223719371>Your completely misunderstood my post.Bro, do you even english yourself?
>>223719392Is the learning window even a real thing or is it just a meme to just shit post? I am having the sense that people who post it are in a mocking tone of the concept
>>223719371I was adding to what you were saying and I made a typo. The irony lmao. Only messing, I was in agreement with you man dwWe’re not Reddit fags here, alas I refuse to go out of my way to proofread, I’ve fat fingers so I am always mistyping sorry
>>223719670I might be severely retarded then because I wrote ban jordism as don't switch to several different languages and not several as once.Then I said 'They think they are him" as in they think they are him as they are the guy who is awesome and then wrote finally in my last sentence, why can't you stick to one language which is self explanatory.
>>223719962nigger It’s jording time and then he jorded all over em nigger
>>223719962Could it be that you're actually Jordie anon? You talk about banning it as if it's a self hatred thing.
I'm reading my first book in French, using a bilingual dictionary with koreader (on Kobo). All the graded readers seemed boring as hell, and I hate not understanding stuff, so I decided to do it the hard way and look up every word I don't know, and look up the same words again and again until there is no nagging feeling left in my mind about their meaning.The book is "Les Portes d'Occident" by Pierre Bordage. Seems like peak 90s woke, with pic related juxtaposed with incessant descriptions of Mongoloid cheekbones and eye lids.
>>223720483Well yeah if we know English why not get reading already in French? It’s close enough with a bilingual edition to just do it.
>>223720186Ahhh fuck it, english is my first language and it's trash. Imma just learn my TL and be fluent in that instead.
>>223719733I wasn't familiar with this concept. For me, it's the time at work when I can learn languages because no one bothers me and I can do audio courses or click on Anki while doing my job or slacking around
>>223697425the takeaway is to just do anki and read a grammar
>>223720483>Seems like peak 90s wokepourquoi vous ne lisez pas plutôt le camp des saints?
I'm really liking the Iliad in translation, sadly I have to put off learning Ancient Greek for a while
>>223697425He probably did it wrong. I've seen some older vids where he chose to watch more difficult content because videos at his "level" were too boring.
>>223720483Japanese had kino cultural and historical stuff like 47 samurai and yuki onna adapted for graded readers, no idea if there is anything like for French though. I haven't found anything at least but reading French comics is easy enough that it doesn't really feel necessary. I'm sort of tempted to try to write something like that in Swedish though, like adapting the tales from the eddas and Swedish history. Learners deserve better shit than stories about going to the grocery store.
>been learning Japanese for a long while, plans to move overseas / get a gf>suddenly meet this Chinese girl>we hit it off>she doesnt even speak english>now we video calling often, texting all day every dayIts becoming real. Not sure how much I should adjust my language learning plans. I dont want to give up Japanese, but if Im not getting serious with this Chinese girl, the main reason Ive been learning is shifting. Learning both Mandarin and Japanese seems insane.Pic related is not her
>>223723819>but if Im not getting serious with this Chinese girl*but if Im now getting serious with this Chinese girl
>>223723819>access to full time immersion>guh what should I do guiseidk nigga maybe focus on your chinese. I don't condone race-mixing but assuming you're brown wife that bug and bing bong ching chong speak with her. A few years from now you can make a living ripping off xiaoma.
>>223722578>invest 1150 plus hours into rigidly following ALG teachings>doesn't work well>ALG-fags just claim he did it wrongEveryone saw this coming, including that the response from ALG cultists would be denial. What's really damning is that people he knows who did input heavy mixed approaches like >>223721069 have dramatically outpaced him in progress.
Is anybody else planning to become a polyglot grifter once you get good at your TLs?
>>223724500>once you get goodheh. hehehehehehehhehe
>>223723235Oh, I've found many graded readers of classic French novels, like by Dumas (the elder), but it feels counterfeit. Written and spoken language have their own registers. In novels, they should only be mixed by native or super fluent writers (like Nabokov in English but in your NL).I might be biased here, because Finnish, like French, has a large gap between the two, Finnish even more so.The only difference seems to be that French has some 19th century class system bolted onto their dictionaries, I don't even know if I should trust it. I understand there are registers, here politicians on TV don't talk like Finnish is written, I talk with the Kela lady less formally than that, and I talk with the cashier less formally than that, and I talk with my colleagues less formally than that, and I talk with my friends ..., etc. etc. And I don't talk like a Somali youth in Helsinki, though I live in Helsinki.
2 hours fucking sleep and I’m awake again. I hate myself. Guess I’ll do some translations.
>>223720483What in God’s name is this book about? Chinks and a liberation army (holy?) in Poland?
>>223724306What's ALG? I tried googling it and it just shows agile shit for programming.
I'm doing too well in Italian. A few words with anki, some example sentences, a bit of an audio course and everything clicks. Completely different than with German. I almost feel like I'm not learning and I'm wasting my time (still, I am a beginner and I think I knew a lot more in the past, but it was maybe 4 months of learning, though). Does the sound of the language really matter that much or am I aesthetically biased? I would probably feel the same way about Spanish or Portuguese. Or even Japanese, the shit cannot be THAT difficult. The biggest drawback is that there is not that much typical slop content in Italian and I don't need the language to anything. Hence my dilemmas, I guess.
>>223725254the never speak the language method
>>223725301>Or even Japanese, the shit cannot be THAT difficult.There are over 30 homophones read as koushou, that's the norm not the exception. Kanji isn't even the difficult part. Do what you will with this information.
>>223725187Around the 2050s the Chinese invaded the West, marching across Eurasia desposing a Russian despot on the way, but as they tried to cross from Poland to Germany, a sci-fi curtain (book published in 1995, btw) sprung out of the ground and annihilated all of their troops. So the invading army of Chinks settled there and now 200 years later the Chink triads control the Western frontier, subjugating the natives. The main character is a Chinaman indebted to a triad. The wall opens once a year (or something) but no one ever comes back, so he sets out there to find his destiny.That's basically as far I've got reading it, I'm currently where he rescued some Tibetan woman on the way. I checked his (rip, died this year) wife's name and I was a bit surprised it wasn't Asian but Arabic.
>>223725420That's retarded. When I first started learning my TL, I started to speak it and think in it especially when it was poorly constructed words. Using it for basic things like "make list" or "I like this" and then revert to english when I run out of words helps you remember it and actually start to use it practically. Is there a particular reason why you should ever avoid speaking in it? Sounds like some shitty method.
>>223725487The vocab I’m guessing is quite difficult or niche, but persevere and it’ll be worth it
>>223713614It's really great if you enjoy suffering. Just think of it like dark souls or dwarf fortress or something. Getting killed 1000 times is the point
>>223709765I skip dialog whenever I would normally, in order to engage with TL content is a more naturalistic way. There will always be another game, I don't need to force every word out of every one I load up.
>>223713323>>223714472>>223716108Perhaps it would be best to have played the game already and completed it 100% before doing this.Maybe I just outrank youse in the autism chain of command. >>223712863Which Lang(s)? Original Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic was my favourite game on Original Xbox. It doesn’t come in any other Langs than English on the Xbox One Store.
>>223725563>Is there a particular reason why you should ever avoid speaking in it?I think there is an initial period during which you might not fully know how to pronounce words properly, and since speaking involves actual muscle movements, it's probably better to practice it when you have more experience with how it's supposed to sound. Unless you have a tutor who is willing to correct your pronunciation all the time.
>>223725603Not trying to have a go at you, but are you the Spanish NLanger?
>>223725473I don't see a problem with homophones. I think the biggest problem is the entry point to speak freely, meaning pronunciation and the complexity (naturalness to you?) of the grammar. >>223725563I agree. I have a similar experience with English. I primarily consume the language, not produce anything. So, I have no problem listening to lectures on something I knew nothing about, but I struggle to express my thoughts or not mess up my pronunciation. And that's precisely what the ALG method is designed to prevent: you listen to the language for thousands of hours, then you probably read for hundreds of hours, if I remeber correctly, and at the end you talk to a native for a while and magically you know the language like a native. Didn't work for me. But supporters of the method will probably say that it is because I spoke this language at school and strengthened bad habits under the supervision of teachers >>223725677Yes, but there is also the idea that even after learning with a teacher you will have problems with the language because it has not been formed in your head correctly, or something like that
>>223725566Thanks. Actually, the terminology is not that hard. All the more technical terms have cognates in English, and the idioms like "fous le camp" are pretty memorable. The real problem has been all the different nouns for trash and building parts, adjectives for worn, ragged, etc. and all kinds of sound verbs, and how things scatter, sparkle, speckle and whatever.
desu just pick a textbook series that people recommend, do all the exercises, everything that it asks you to do, do this until you finish all of the books within it, then you'll be at a comfortable B1 or B2 level (potentially), then just get a lot of input in
Shocking natives is somewhat fun but mogging the dabblers is where it's at.Best feeling is when you talk with some dude's wife and she can finally be herself instead of struggling with his language and he discovers a version of her he didn't know and can't access.>>223702204Speedrun the basics and do shit you enjoy but in your TL. Then you do it 3+ hours a day and you'll be decent quick without even realizing it.
>>223725819Well, I don't mind if I form some bad habits while speaking at first. I intend to speak, read, write and listen fleuntly within like 5 years and engaging with natives. I already fuck up english well enough in my native language and I correct myself easily. Also actually talking or dealing with native content will help me correct my mistakes later on. Also gtfo if you claim fossilization is a real thing.
>>223726084>gtfoI just wrote what this method is and what the followers of this method believe in. You asked about, retard
>>223726084>fossilisationReminds me of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29XBbVGbLKo
>>223726189You don't know what the fuck the word "if" means? Did you claim it to be true? If not then I didn't say that to you then.
>>223713614just wait 2 years and epigenetic reprogramming will be able to restore you to teenage levels of learning and flexibility
>>223726084ALG is pretty much 80% bullshit. Not the input part, that's of course necessary, but these guys listen to 2000 hours of native content and they can't speak at all.One of their tenets is obvious bullshit (permanent damage by reading too soon, learning grammar, etc.) but actually they are not radical enough. Native content is too literary, the proper method is watching Tiktok shorts until you've acquired all of the phrases the plebs use. Language is just idioms. Just stringing fragments together to make some sense.
>>223726319But why did you even construct such a sentence to me? Your answer would only make sense if you couldn't see mine. >my answer is A>if you answered B then get the fuck out of hereWhat's the point of writing this? You could just as easily have written a random conditional sentence, and I'd be just as likely to search for hidden meaning in such a conversation.
>>223726388The "don't do grammer" shit is just to prevent scaring off normies about learning the language. That advice should die off. Grifters and advertisers of language ads hampered any real attempt at anyone getting into language learning without absolutely failing it. I remember using duolingo like 5 years ago as a young cunt and not been able to understand shit and dropping it and so many more unaware language learners hit a wall trying to progress like that. Zero grammer explanition and caused extreme damage to anyone thinking of learning the language.Tragic.
>>223725819I think they (the ALG people) underestimate how much practice you need to speak fluently. They think their method is unique, but actually after learning to comprehend the language they are in the same situation as 100s of millions of people who have 99% only read and listened to their TL.But learning to speak is quite easy, you just have to disengage from the "literary mode' in your brain and put on an act. It makes you feel dumb, like there are no exact phrases to express your thoughts, but it gets easier.
ALG is a meme. I've posted rants about it before in past threads. The entire idea is built on "learning like a baby does", but natives have classes in their native languages where they do vocab quizzes and worksheets to practice subject/verb agreement or using the correct conjugation, etc. If you ever speak to someone who dropped out of school at a young age you'll see they'll have a limited vocabulary and make a lot of grammar mistakes. I mean look at what happened to the slaves in America. They didn't get an education and ended up creating AAVE from how badly they fucked up English. That's what pure input does to you.
>>223726600Well, I just said that just in case you believed in it. You don't have to agree with AGL to believe in fossilization. I didn't know your stance on it. There is people here also still claiming that critical learning period is real and crying that they are learning a language at 25 with a disadvantage.
>>223726703Maybe I exaggerated a bit in describing my situation, but there is a clear difference between my passive and active language skills. When I was still playing games or studying it was better, now I basically have no opportunity or need to use the language actively. Still, it's a bit embarrassing to sound worse, grammatically, pronunciationally, or stylistically, than others in the group on those rare occasions.
>>223723819Not your dating blog normalfaggot
>>223726789Well that's not quite true. People don't learn to speak their native language in school, but to write it in some standard form. Drilling vocab in America is just a shortcut to making them read books (which a public school system is unable to do).
>>223725254Don’t talk, don’t read, don’t study grammar/vocabulary, don’t even use subtitles, for like 1,000 hours, and then try to talk. People swear up and down it produces fluent accentless results but the only people who actually manage to rigidly follow the method end up being able to understand the gist of a lot of stuff but are otherwise effectively mute.Oh btw the 1,000 hour thing is on Dreaming Spanish’s batshit insane timeline, which of course is for one of the easiest languages for an Englishman to learn. It’s literally like double the FSI class-time for full proficiency, just to start speaking the language at all.It’s sort of like if you took AJATT, which achieves better results with Japanese in less time, and stripped out everything that made it useful or efficient. Then, when it fails to produce results even for the easiest languages, you cope online about how people just aren’t doing it right.
Here’s DS’s chart for reference. Reading and conversation only recommended at the 1000 hour mark, and not allowed at all until hour 600.
I think if it took me 1000 hours to be at the 90% comprehension point in fucking Spanish I would just change hobbies. It’s like all the old wive’s tales and language mysticism combined into one unholy abomination of an attitude that just objectively sucks.
>>223726809I clearly stated that I have a different experience, maybe not enough I don't know if 25 is a cutoff, never heard about it, but I believe there's something similar: at a certain age, but very young I think, the brain focuses on the most important sounds and their differences, and ignores other, more insignificant differences. Just like the brain learns to ignore common smells or seeing your nose. That's why we instinctively replace a sound from the language we're learning with another from our native language, like using rolled R or pronouncing th as z or f. But all it takes is paying a little more attention to it and maybe learn how to use your mouth correctly. And as we age, we become more conservative in our habits and we get irritated when we do things differently. But it's more a matter of psychology than any objective, independent factors>>223726789Good point.>>223727075Looks like hell. And all this for a language with one of the simplest phonologies from the perspective of most other languages
>>2237271401000 hours isnt that much for language learning. even the fsi has said that the estimates are only about half of the actual hours spent, and even that is just to a fairly intermediate level. you shouldn't bother learning a language unless you can foresee yourself putting 5k-10k hours in it if youre actually looking to get good
>>223727272It's 1000 hours until you are allowed to say "Yo soy" or read a book for 4-year-olds. After all this, hundreds of hours of reading, learning to put sentences together, etc.
>>223727378I agree ALG is retarded. But people go into language learning with unrealistic expectations and then get disillusioned. It takes a looooooong time to learn a language to a high level, way longer than the usual estimates given.
>>223727075This feels like beating a dead horse since it's just like four ALG haters here, but listening to 1000 hours of "We put the beans in the burrito" and then graduating to Mexican "Days of Our Lives" seems like torture.
>>223727448Yes, I'm often annoyed when people say that X language is easy, but they speak it like idiots, but if I can imitate the movie's hero or make up my own sentences from the beginning, it's great, but if I have to follow this method and wait for 1000+ hours until I am allowed to do anything, it's hell
>>223727012>>223727075Holy fuck dreaming spanish is a fucking meme. Reading is almost foundational to learning language. Yeah you may mispronouce words or misunderstand the text but you can just subsidize it with shadowing with audiobooks and direct translations.Like I said, online courses artificially produces failures. Only reason why FSI works is the US Government is paying you to be fluent and do your job. If they were selling the course, they'll stretch it out as long as possible and nickle and dime you for basic A1 content.
I can't wait for fsrs 7 to come out
The one true answer is AJATT or replace J with the language you're targeting.
>>223727614Now I gotta ask what that is. I'm happy when I started learning my TL again I skipped researching the best way to learn a language and just went straight into the textbooks. Imagine if I took a dreaming spanish class and became a retard like him.
arguellesbros...
>>223727651Essentially a very heavy input method that really popularized digital flashcard programs.as much input as possible, do not worry about whether you can understand all that much at first. When you do understand all but one thing in a sentence, write the sentence down into a flashcard, and try to keep up some quota like 10 flashcards (or more) a day. Totally fine to mine sentences directly from textbooks but don't get bogged down in them.People expanded on this by also recommending reading a VERY brief grammar guide for a given language in the first couple weeks of inputting. After 6-12 months or so of this [could be much earlier with an easier lang] make a real effort to go talk to people, but don't be afraid to read aloud, read your flashcards aloud, try to mimic what you hear, etc. With Japanese there's a massive upfront period of grinding kanji, which can obviously be skipped with another language. Keep the flashcard habit going until somewhere in the 7,000-10,000 sentences range [Khazumoto personally recommended 10,000 but admitted also that he only did 7,000]. A big part of what got it memed way back was that Khaz would do stuff like have one earbud in listening to audio of anime he had already worked through while in his classes in college.It has a sizable amount of adherents who are big on making guides/tools.Essentially, watch a lot of anime, read plenty, write down unknown words with the sentence they're in and regularly review those.
>>223727651AJATT: All Japanese All The Time.Replace Japanese with your target language. Does what's said on the label.
>>223727651>Now I gotta ask what that is.AJATT is a strategy invented like 20 years ago where you basically pretend you don't know your native language and do everything in your target language 24/7 (+ some anki mining). It was invented by a black british weeb named khatzumoto.https://alljapanesealltheti.me/index.htmlAnyone posting on this thread is not currently doing ajatt since that would be reading english comments and would thus not be ajatt
>>223725972Thank you epstein-chan>>223727780The moron who failed to speak spanish telling others not to be a polyglot? Lmao. It's content farming anyway so not much value to actually watch. Arguelles video was already meh to begin with. I din't need a failed spanish speaker to point out what anyone else would watch it think of already
>>223727780bald brainlet aggressively misinterprets /ourguy/ and complains for a whole video. There, now you don't have to watch it.
>>223727651"All Japanese all the time". Basically you watch anime (= input) and make Anki cards out of phrases you don't understand.The flashcard thing seems to be mostly about learning Chinese characters, and basically every language youtuber relying on Anki is learning Japanese or Chinese. For people learning alphabetic languages it's just cargo cult, in my opinion.
okay but who do I talk to in Latin>just write stuffI have nothing to say
>>223727012If you listen to 1,000 of level-appropriate input, you don't think that you'll be able to ramp up the speaking much faster than if you started speaking from 0 hours?I'm trying Dreaming Spanish now and it suits me just fine because I don't have any reason to speak Spanish IRL anyway, and I guess I don't really have any particular desire to learn Spanish in the first place. Despite having any rational reason for doing this, I've racked up close to 600 hours of input over the course of this year, a large amount of that being audio-only podcasts during times when I wouldn't be able to "study" by any alternative method, and if nothing else, I can say I understand Spanish a lot better than when I started (which was next to zero). At least I can understand enough to enjoy the fun stories of Juan, esteemed by many as the most handsome Spanish teacher on the internet.Since you mentioned AJATT, did you see this Matt vs Japan video where he is (in my interpretation) basically saying the same thing Pablo does?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGC5XQjXrUo
>>223727870>>223727876>>223727892>>223727957That sounds really fucking retarded
>>223726919Exactly. "ALG" detractors seem to have the idea that babies learn languages by speaking and grinding Anki cards and studying grammar manuals from before they can crawl, but children are already fluent speakers of the language before they start school. I know that I didn't really learn how to speak at school. I learned how to speak from my family and from other social interactions. I didn't need an English teacher to tell me to say "I don't" instead of "I doesn't." The only "grammar" I learned were prescriptivist rules like "put other people before yourself in a list" ("Bob and I" instead of "I and Bob") or "say 'may' instead of 'can' to ask permission," that in many cases don't necessarily reflect how people actually talk and ignoring that there are different ways that are most appropriate to say something, depending on the context. I didn't learn vocabulary by grinding Anki cards. I learned vocabulary from social interactions and from reading. And I didn't learn how to speak by learning how to read. I learned how to read a language that I already knew.
>>223728311I have to look up more words while reading in Lithuanian than in English
>>223727958it's never truly "i have nothing to say", people just claim that because they can't express what they want to say in their TLif you want to defend yourself by making a reply stating otherwise then it better be in latin and not english
I've had a nice experience doing duolingo Korean for a month, I really didn't like that it was ai voicelines and the listening practice was cringe so I skipped it. It was something nice to do consistently on my morning walks, But now that my free trial is over I'm switching to just doing anki
>>223728311Nigga is u a baby?
>>223727958If you want to speak Latin, there are people who do that online. If you want to speak Latin IRL and don't know anyone nearby, there are conferences/camps devoted to Latin immersion, like this one. Maybe you can find one in your region.https://www.conventiculum.com/mmxxvi-latineIf you want to write Latin...>I have nothing to sayYou have nothing to say or you have things to say but don't know how to say it? If you don't have anything to say, just pretend you're someone else.
>>223727958I had a similar issue with motivation for output but then eventually I have written a lot of Latin by doing weekly readings and commentaries of Seneca's letters with a couple other people, it does help when you are sort of committed and can thus force yourself out of your comfort zone. If you just make it up to you, like "write N lines weekly about whatever" it's less motivating.
>>223728377certe loqui latine possum, at nescio de qua re colloqui neque habeo cum aliquo id facere. indoctus sum, puto, quam ob rem sic est>>223728430we don't do fun or interesting things in my country. all we do is drink and watch sportsI have nothing to say in the sense that I have nothing interesting or of value to say, I have no interesting thoughts
>>223728294It is objectively the fastest way to learn a language. If you input for 2 hours in your tl your brain may or may not pay attention to it but if you can only use your target language 24/7 it becomes critically important and your mind treats it as such and goes to great effort both consciously and subconsciously to understand it and remember it. The only thing faster than AJATT is being in an environment where youre surrounded by natives talking to you in your target language 24/7 (which is also just AJATT). People regularly learn the world's hardest languages (japanese/korean/chinese) insanely quickly doing this and speak very naturally and normally. The black kid who came up with it speaks japanese so well that japanese people who hear him talk assume he's japanese until they see him.
>>223725769No, since I'm american spanish is just Mexican to me and not a bvsed evuropan trad romance language and it's also the one I was obligated to take for school and I hate it for that reason as well. Fortunately the french are weebs and so there's ample j-slop in french
>>223727272the fsi numbers are the biggest meme in language learning, that pace is for if you have "high language learning aptitude" and then also spend 16 hours a day getting your TL waterboarded into you in the basement of an embassy
>>223727870one time i accidentally flipped to the spanish section of an instruction manual and looked at the words before i had done my 1000 hours of input. this gave me PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE instantaneously and now i will talk like a retard forever
>>223728580>a black kid invented immersionNow let's see his computer. Obviously in/out maxxing and the learning being important to you such that you put forth effort is the fastest way. Now, tell me what kind of smart glasses to buy to auto-translate everything I see into my TL so I can ascend
What are you inputting, o/lang/utans?
>>223728818Take their explanation of his method with a grain of salt. I actually bothered to read his blog and I roughly articulated what he said in this post >>223727870It is not like ALG, and the quirks of it are specific to the challenges faced in learning Japanese. A large part of that is that the textbooks teach horribly unnatural grammar, in an agglutinative language (meaning grammar is highly learnable via just breaking down sample sentences taken from context).>>223727895>The moron who failed to speak spanishIn his defense he specifically set out to use the most retarded method on Earth fully believing it was a retarded method, so his progress being retarded isn’t really his fault. I still can’t tolerate his slander of /ourguy/.>>223728580This is a bad argument because “fastest way to learn a language” is misleading when you mean number of years instead of actual time investment. It’s not particularly fast by hours invested, but AJATT is effective. A better argument would be that with Japanese maximizing density of volume per day is efficient since your brain needs substantially more immersion hours to grasp the alien grammar/idiom well.
Btw the “1. Read a brief grammar/primer or basic book 2. Grind the top 5,000 words (with sample sentences) via anki, so you can have a self-supporting vocabulary base that lets you just learn more words from context 3. Do as much input as you can manage throughout” is basically the AJATT approach as it has echoed across the online language learning space into other languages.
>>223729063based, this is what I shill every time anyone asks. feels good man
>>223729008For me, it's Top Chef (FR). Now up to 2023 so I'm almost out of seasons. Next up: qui sera le prochain grand pâtissier
>>223729016Yep, he failed it by picking a shitty way to learn the language intentionally. Also I went out of my way to watch the video and I was right although he said it better desu. He did say that his examples were retarded, he claimed that multilingual cities spoke up to 6 languages instead of 3-4 and said it's not reasonable for the average person to be a polyglot.I never thought /ourguy/ was particularly interesting but his video trying to encourage people to learn many languages isn't an issue but insisting on becoming a polyglot just because theoretically the mind could learn up to 6 of them and you are other wise wasting your potential if you don't is highly regarded.
>>223729122What /ourguy/ says is totally reasonable in the context of his broader works but he's an old man putting an off the cuff monologue onto the internet so he has a bad sense for tone. He has previously stated that 2 languages besides one's native language is a good goal for most people interested in it, and is speaking more generally about people trying to maximize value over a lifetime of study. It's not some "learn 6 languages in 30 days each to shock the locals" thing.
>>223728311>I didn't need an English teacher to tell me to say "I don't" instead of "I doesn't."I taught kids for years and yes, you did need the teacher to tell you that. You might not remember, but that doesn't mean you didn't learn it. You naturally absorb a good amount of vocab, but you also learned a lot of it by studying. My school used Wordly Wise workbooks which taught about 20 words a week.
>>223729188Don't get me wrong, you are entirely correct. In the comment section of the video, people even mention that it's targetted to his fans and hyperpolyglots anyway and not the average person. The guy is chill and just giving out his thoughts.That's why I called it slop reaction content. Of course you can disagree with it but he's just passively giving his opinions and not demanding you do it.
>>223729232I have a core memory of being taught the word "perplexed" and it's my favorite word meaning confused. That memory was like when I was like 7 to 10 years old in school. I even had a vocab book. Holy fuck I got taught so many words in my childhood. Yeah, children barely know any fucking words in their native language.I'm glad that I remembered that. Makes learning a second language still seem difficult but it's only as hard as learning your first language in the first place.
>>223729016he did not look up words in english (only looked up definitions in a japanese-japanese pop-up dictionary), listened to japanese even while sleeping, and aggressively eliminated any avoidable english of any kind. it's not the same as just 'input a lot + do anki'. watching lots of anime + putting japanese in your headphones is not the same as literally switching everything you do to japanese and completely removing english.basically the fundamental point is that your brain has to suppress patterns associated with your native language whenever it engages in the target language. likewise your brain also suppresses tl patterns when engaging in nl. every time you use your native language it temporarily disrupts target language patterns. this is why the advice to not learn two languages at a time exists. thus, going a long period without any use of english is incredibly powerful as your brain will be subconsciously working on target language acquisition even when not actively engaging in it. you're misrepresenting it by saying it's just input + anki (which is what everyone does and does not by itself give the same proportional benefits as ajatt)
>>223729278this is basically a better description of it than whats on the homepagehttps://alljapanesealltheti.me/japan-is-wherever-you-are-10-ways-to-turn-your-environment-japanese/index.html
Finished another book in my TL. The carrot is closer than ever, I can feel it!
>>223729008Etude progressive de la langue francaise (reader)Gesta Francorum [primary source of first crusade from a knight that fought in it]De Bello Gallico - Caesar (rereading)
Google Translate tip:If you want to get it to spit out a particular word and it’s conjugations or gendered declensions but you keep getting synonyms of that word, just put that word from your TLang right into the NLang side of Google Translate with NLang words surrounding it to supply the grammar. Problem solved! (Mostly).
>>223729392Lire un livre est une victoire distincte et séparée de votre objectif final. Vous devez l'apprécier.J'ai oublié de dire en >>223729444 que j'ai joué à Skyrim pendant 3h.
>>223729232You're overvaluing the impact that kind of instruction has. I can assure you that I didn't need a teacher's help to know which to say in that case. I have the experience of being a child myself, and I also have the experience of having children of my own, and I hear with my own eyes what kinds of grammatical mistakes small children make as they grow. The worksheet in your picture is not at all the kind of mistake of "I don't" versus "I doesn't." It's "irregular" past tense forms, like "ran" instead of "runned." A three-year-old in my family might say "I runned," but would never say "I doesn't." They also would learn to say "I ran" with time regardless of whether they went to school or not.Think about what your argument is. You're making the argument that "ALG" (Dreaming Spanish) is stupid and ineffective because children don't actually learn language from input, but from taking English classes in school and studying grammar and doing Anki. If not for those language-learning activities, children would never succeed in learning the language. On the contrary, if a child never went to school, never learned to read, and had all their exposure to the language from their family and people who lived in their community, as an adult, they would end up being fluent speakers of the language that sound like their family and the other people in their community. He wouldn't make the "mistakes" characteristic of AAVE if the people around him did not speak AAVE. His "mistakes" would be characteristic of the people around him.
>>223729267You might have encountered the word "perplexed" for the first time in school, but perplexed is a common word. If you didn't hear it used in speech, you would pick it up through reading on your own sooner or later. (And if you never encountered it anywhere in your life, I guess it couldn't be a very important word in your circumstances.) The effect of school (by which I mean direct instruction) is dwarfed by what you learn from social interactions, TV and movies, and in particular (in terms of expanding your vocabulary beyond the most common words), reading!
>>223729973You're not wrong however don't dismiss learning english in school as a kid did help form and refine your speech in english. Sure, you will learn words outside of school as well via media and social interactions. The obvious answer that both immersion (socializing and consuming input) and being taught by a teacher or learning materials (school, textbooks, and instructions) are useful to gaining a new language, as a child or adult. I definitely wouldn't dismiss school being a factor in making sure you aren't retarded while speaking or misusing words.
>>223729861département de basé
>German separable verb prefixesJesus fucking Christ man, what the hell were they thinking when they came up with this shit?Has any German learner managed to make them feel natural to you, or are we just fucked to constantly bungling them up a bit?
>>223730567Didn't read, did they make NSFW art of that picture?
>>223728774I’m of the opinion that the amount of hours per day inflates the FSI estimates somewhat since it would imply functional job proficiency in even the easiest languages is like a lifetime pursuit unless you make it your full-time job for a year (plus input and extra study all non-work hours) and I’m sorry for you Spanish learners but I’m just kind of skeptical that Spanish is THAT hard. If anything it seems like Spanish attracts the most half-assers and normies.The FSI is very good at what it does but what it does is produce functional diplomats in a relatively short time period, but their method of achieving this is extreme amounts of study hours per day.
>>223730567>what the hell were they thinking when they came up with this shit?we have the same thing in english. it's more confusing in german because the word order changes from sov to v2 in main clauses, which for some reason doesn't affect verbal prefixes and leaves them at the end of the phrase.
>>223730567Just treat them like phrasal verbs. E.g. ‘he THREW all of his breakfast UP’. Also,https://youtu.be/z3tgUpSp9hY>28:30-49
>>223730567needs a bigger bush
>>223732507Bumping but yes and nude as well.
>>223730638I'm fluent in japanese and can read at almost native speed too, took me ~6k hours before I considered myself decent.Started spanish 18 months ago, and even if it's way faster I'll still need 2k hours I think, and that's with being a native french speaker. FSI apparently says 750 (1500 actually since you have to double it) so I'll be way higher.I don't know anyone who got good using only the allowed amount of hours by the FSI and I doubt you did it.I also doubt those diplomats are able to understand stuff out of their comfort zone like two teens talking in the bus.
>FSI mentionedhas anyone ever done an actual FSI course, out of curiosity?i think this is a website that tries to make a buck off of the courses, but does link them: https://www.fsi-language-courses.org/
Does any German textbook explain the nuance of verbs with and without prefixes?
The best language course is literally an A2 and B1 grammar textbook, anki decks of grammar tenses and whatever books, articles or whatever you want to brute force translate.
>>223693710Thank you, that's wonderful to hear. I hope that wasn't you in /ex-yu/, as that place is hazardous to all forms of well-being.
>>223729278>he did not look up words in englishIdk about during input, but he did say to have an English translation on the back of sentence cards.
>>223733570So over 4 hours a day of study for 4 years or are you counting all input?
>>223726703>I think they (the ALG people) underestimate how much practice you need to speak fluently. They think their method is unique, but actually after learning to comprehend the language they are in the same situation as 100s of millions of people who have 99% only read and listened to their TL.I can speak spanish and english and I never practiced either.
>>223733570Proficiency is exponentially more time intensive to reach higher stages so if fluency is defined as “broad and deep automatic native like proficiency with no accent” it is literally impossible for many to achieve, and if it is “functional proficiency with core vocabulary, daily life, and able to use native media” then it is far more achievable. The problem is that I have no idea what you consider “decent” proficiency, and the ALG people also never define what they consider decent, instead they imply that anything less than perfection is a total failure, so you have to do their method exactly lest you be imperfect.
>>223726789>The entire idea is built on "learning like a baby does", but natives have classes in their native languages where they do vocab quizzes and worksheets to practice subject/verb agreement or using the correct conjugation, etc. No, children already know nearly 100% of their language by age 7 (as in tens of thousands of words and near full mastery of the grammar). School serves completely different purposes, in order of importance:1. keeping children occupied while mom and dad are at work2. providing employment for powerful teacher's unions3. standardizing the language nationally4. teaching reading, writing and mathematics >If you ever speak to someone who dropped out of school at a young age you'll see they'll have a limited vocabulary and make a lot of grammar mistakesIf you speak to someone who dropped out of elementary school you are talking to someone with severe mental retardation. Fuck these days they even give university degrees to downers if they manage to live long enough.
>>223727567>Only reason why FSI works is the US Government is paying you to be fluent and do your job. If they were selling the courseFSI actually charges other departments for their services. Also it doesn't work, last time they were audited they had a failure rate of 40%.
>>223733570Honestly on more reflection I totally get your hour counts compared to my own experience and accept that as reasonable. I’m at probably 1,000 hours in my own lang and I expect it to take 1,000 hours more to be where I want to be.
>>223736915you're welcome. at least in BiH -- i assume it's the same in Croatia and other ex-yu countries -- people were very nice, and usually happy or excited to talk with a foreigner from unexpected locations. the sense of hospitality reminded me a lot of Portugal. im not sure when i will do a trip that way, but since it would be the first time in Croatia, i would probably try to go at least to Zagreb and Split, for seeing the palace and other things, and then Bosnia. Having 2 weeks would be nice.>I hope that wasn't you in /ex-yu/, as that place is hazardous to all forms of well-being.it is, but i have to attempt some level of output somehow.
>If the FSI says it it must be true
>>223739603There’s a guy who’s been living in Japan and is an expert on sinosphere languages, blanking on his name, and he said at least for Japanese that FSI produces pretty lackluster results (after 2000 class hours lmao).
>>223738492Counting input if I'm actively listening or reading. At some point it's the only study left basically except anki and talking/writing.Everyone I heard say they were good at jap had 5k+ hours. I know many dudes who lived there or have a jap wife and don't understand why their 2 hours a week lead them nowhere.>>223738601Yeah the problem is that everyone has their own definition I guess, saw the 2 extremes.For me it's when you can have a conversation with a native who doesn't need or feel like he has to dumb down his speech and you can make yourself clear even with a few mistakes and accent. Also read at 50% of a native speed.>>223739001The FSI list is good to see what languages are difficult but the hours they mention are not understood. It's the amount of class hours but you need to add the same amount of revisions + a personal interest for the language. Then you can do your diplomat job quite well.You can't be fluent in casual, polite and ultrapolite japanese and also handwrite it and have a proper pitch accent in 2200 hours lmao. People go there and drop their spaghettis when they have to actually converse with a real native after spending years to get their N1.
>>223739673I think FSI is only popular because they are the only ones to put out hours estimates, basically. Linguists are too cucked by woke to ever do anything like that, every language is a precious unique flower, you can't say japanese is three times harder than spanish.But here comes the FSI and says 3000 hours, and everyone thinks "wow, there must be a lot of research behind that" (there isn't).
>>223739862The research is however many hours FSI can justify funding the salaries of everyone involved for.
>>223739673 I'm probably in the ball park of 4k hours into Japanese i.e about the same number as they would have of class hours plus self study, and I'm decent not great. Feels like it's a baseline one could work with while continuing to improve. I could probably double that number again to gid gud, and then maybe even double that again to really master it so say ~16k hours.>>223739862Good hand writing ability like writing an essay without looking up a single character feels like it would take a couple of thousand hours by itself.
I never see people mention this but FSI doesn't claim to teach to fluency. The hours they list are how long they estimate it takes to reach an ILR score of 3, although for many jobs even just a ILR 2 is considered a passing grade. Picrel shows what that means. On the ILR scale "native-like" is scored at a 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale
Mon nouveau phrase préfères est maintenant «Où se situe le bien? Où se situe le mal?» Jour par jour, mon capacité à lire (ou de lire? Je ne sais pas) s’améliore. En fait, je peut penser en français encore.
>>223740886I like the equivalence tables where different institutions can't agree whether 3 is equivalent to B2 or C1 even though there's supposedly thousands of hours of study between those two levels.
Language learning has become so fucking trendy that there is just so much bullshit as a result. Fucking 400,000 apps, courses; a million people saying do this in order to suceed.Like nigga, just get a textbook or two and some novels in your TL and translate that shit nigga like on god nigga on jah
input
>>223742071How dare you tell me to engage with the language before I hit an arbitrary point of readiness
I love seeing nolangers keep arguing over the "best" methods for years
>>223742071apps are completely useless I've never really learned anything from them and a textbook with a proper structure, guides is much much better, plus you can pirate textbooks if you want, but I personally bought both Wheelock's Latin and LLPSI (Familia Romana, Roma Aeterna), just not the auxiliary materials which I thought were too expensive to spend money onyou can't do that with an app
>>223742887The difference in incentive structure between text book publishers and app makers should be enough to put people of the later. You make the most money of selling books if they're useful and people recommend them to others while apps make money from people who don't learn anything but think that they do so that they stay subscribed.
>>223739603>fsi didn't teach me to ask for a napkin but instead politics and economics stuffit's almost like the department of state trains people for diplomacy not for cracking the shit with localsalso another reason why FSI estimates aren't a good metric because they only bother with stuff necessary for foreign service, not true "fluency">>223742071most people are barely C1 in their own native language (somehow even anglos who have infinite content) so they're ngmi and doomed from the get goalso like 90% of language learners are actually just people with nothing better to do "learning" a foreign language so they can feel like they're being resourceful with their time, these are also the same people who get permastuck on B1/dabble because they don't have the actual passion to grind a specific language past that
Why would anyone want to learn a second or third language when English is literally the main global language?
>>223744336>most people are barely C1 in their own native languageThe CEFR is actually so unclear that this depends on who you ask.
>NeugierigCurious Newgreedy
>>223745999God dammit, this fucking gay website still strips symbols from my post
>>223745619
thinking of making a conjugato but freeId feel motivated if people would be interested
hodiē diēs cattōrum est
>>223747119bonus iocus amice
>>223694274>I realized that some words I used retroflex-y r that I find hard to pronounce (e.g. 'world', 'girl'), and requires more movement of the tongue so it also slows my speech. Some sound combinations come out slurred too, usually with 'r' or 'w', such as saying "world wide web" quickly.That's interesting. It shouldn't slow your speech. It's basically just another kind of vowel, even though it's written with an "or" or an "er". Kind of like how the French u (or the German ü) isn't hard for you to pronounce at all. You might be pronouncing the retroflex R wrong.
>>223745619Why would anyone want to learn a second or third language when it's literally impossible after a certain age?
Boah... mein Verständnis hat sich wirklich gesteigert
NEW>>223749106>>223749106>>223749106NEW
>>223744336>most people are barely C1 in their own native language (somehow even anglos who have infinite contentSuch a bullshit and arbitrary point, I can only assume you have autism. Just because your average working class citizen doesn't know every word in the dictionary, does not mean they are not "c1" in their native tongue. They will understand more idioms and sayings than 90% of people who learn their language.
