Ouch..
>>224486315Doesnt count. France was the most populated country in Europe at that time
>>224486297Why did Prussian Germans vote for Willy? He was a menace
>>224486446as opposed to 1940 when Germany was the most populated country in Europe at that time?
>>224486297Bismark was a major contributing factor in why WW1 went down the way it did with the systems of alliances he created and at the age he was dismissed he was really starting to lose it throwing tantrums all the time and was intentionally trying to provoke a civil war by wanting to ban the SPD His glory years were over already
>>224486878truehe was a good diplomat but he is overrated
>>224486446The french never were more numerous than the Germans, they were just more organized and united.An actual working HRE would always had demographic advantage, but they sucked so they only started to exploit this advantage when Prussia united (most, but not all) germans in the late XIX Century
>>224486315>>224486446>>224486622Massed armies in modern europe werent a thing until french revolution. When you no longer fear the peasants you can mobilize a lot of them. France did that first, to great effect
What do germs feel when they see this?
>>224487209wasted potentialbut seen it often enough to no longer be salty
>>224486297How does the average Angloid manages to hold contradictory views on Russia at the same time?
>>224487282Theres nothing conteadictory, playing all sides all the times is (was) an english specialty, their Rothschild masters shared a trick or two
>>224486297the biggest problem with germany is they just don't know how to quit when they're ahead and eventually lose more than what they started with they make impressive gains, get too cocky and want more, put themselves in retarded wars against everyone else, and get destroyedsomeone more careful and calculating could have literally created a US-tier power with germany dominating all of central europe
>>224487402I just can't really understand them:>Russia is a violent barbaric and expansive empire that we must stop at all costs>except in 1914 and 1940
>lost mostly areas that had to be settled by ethnic germmans with government support because almost no one else wanted to live there
>>224487209An urge to boot up hoi4 and make Deutschland bigger on the map
>>224487496>when a bigger threat appears, the strategy changes waow
>>224486878>Bismark was a major contributing factor in why WW1 went down the way it didhow exactly?
>>224487739>Germany is a bigger threat to England because umm the exiled Poles told me they are
I am full none Fares.
>a thread about Bismarckcant scroll pass without posting
>>224486899DEUTSCH TRVKE
>>224486297>>224486315Please take my updoots kind stranger
>>224487209They're taught from the womb to tell you that they're okay with it>>224487411Nah. America's advantage over the centuries was that they were far away from any other powers that were capable of rivalling them. In Europe the moment one country looked like it was becoming too powerful it would get some other neighbouring power doing everything to stop that, even if it meant destroying them both in the process
>>224488001fuck off
>>224488038>They're taught from the womb to tell you that they're okay with itmost normies unironically aren't even aware of the territorial losses.
>fuck off
>>224487704Vgh...
>>224488102you're annoying and not funnyfind something else to obsess aboutI mog you btw
>>224486878>it did with the systems of alliances he createdIt did with Wilhelm abandoning Bismarck's system. He antagonized both Britain (by entering a naval arms race) and Russia (by focusing on Austria, which had large territorial ambitions in the Balkans), pushing them into France's arms.
>>224486529What do you mean with vote? Wilhelm II. was a non-elected monarch. >>224486878This. His early interior politics were allright but in the later times created more internal strife. And his convoluted exterior politics would in the long run either alienate Austria, Italy or Russia. Still, Wilhelm II. exterior politics weren't better.>>224486961>so they only started to exploit this advantage when Prussia united (most, but not all) germans in the late XIX CenturyEven then it wasn't as clear cut as often made out to be. During the latter stages of the Franco-Prussian War the german armies besieging Paris and operating within France saw themselves getting regularly attacked by french "peoples armies" of equivalent size. And while the germans won most of those engagements it still knawed on their moral that the French were able to mobilize the masses they did. >>224487209Eh, this has been so long that it has no bearing on me.
>>224488215antagonizing Russia was reasonable imo, Russia was too big and too closebut yes it was a big mistake to antagonize Britain
>>224487830He wasn't but times had changed, the burgerbro got that right.Bismarck always aimed for a status quo policy in Europe: Don't get dragged into the Balkans, buddy up to Russia, no colonial shenanigans. Thing is, at the turn of the century he was a fucking boomer. The German people didn't want to cuck themselves for no visible gain. The navy? Not only a shit fest vs Britain but also an internal pressure valve to pacify the middle class that was being cock blocked by the army. Buddying up to Russia solely on the grounds of Reaction became increasingly harder once the Austrian and Russian spheres clash on the Balkans and American grain starts flooding the European markets in the 1880s/1890s. Also the Völkische started to grow at that time. Willy wasn't a bad man, just a weak and a dumb one who wanted to be loved by his people and obeyed them
>you're annoying and not funny>find something else to obsess about>I mog you btw
>>224488306truenaval expansion just shouldn't have been so massive to not upset Britaincolonialism was reasonable, Bismarck just was a boomer as you said, the colonies could've paid offchoosing Austria oved Russia was reasobable toothe only real big fuckup of Willy was to not keep Brtiain friendly/neutral
>>224488038>They're taught from the womb to tell you that they're okay with itKek, history is such an afterthought in our school system and a non-issue in our everyday life. Even the Holocaust gets maybe 6 hours in total allocated to it.>>224488215Bismarck wanted to play all sides and especially in the Balkans couldn't due to the conflicting ambitions of Austria, Italy and Russia (and the UK). And Bismarck also alianated Russia by barring the usage of russian currency by german banks.
>>224488086Come on, people can't be that oblivious, even normies
>>224488386>history is such an afterthought in our school system and a non-issue in our everyday life. Even the Holocaust gets maybe 6 hours in total allocated to it.Not surprised
>>224488418educated Germans (academics) will probably have a rough idea, but certainly not all. As the other anon said, history is an aftertought here. There is a rough idea that Nazism was le bad, many normies are very clueless about any details.
>>224488418Bro school curriculums are like three years of Mordor Germany, two hours of "Nazi Germany lost the war on the remnants of Preußen" and then it's Cold War Germany until the Abitur. And I'm fucking ancient, I don't think that they expanded on the two hours since I was at school
>>224487209Doesn't affect my life, I don't care.
>>224488502cattle opinionmoooh
>>224488565>cattle opinion>moooh
>>224488376>the only real big fuckup of Willy was to not keep Brtiain friendly/neutralYeah without Britain in the war and the blockade gone we would've won in 15/16
>>224488498I'm out of the school system for two decades and I historywise I had much about the HRE, Napoleon, Congress of Vienna and its consequences, the 1848 Revolutions and the Biedermeierzeit. As soon as the German Empire was founded the curriculum became a speedrun to reach the Reunification of 1989.
>Biedermeierzeit
>>224488613IIRC most the stuff at my school was French spergout 1789, Hitler bad, Imperial Germany, Hitler still bad, deutsche Teilung>t. 41
>>224488582this represents me spiritually but I look like the chad meme>>224488605likely yes, or 16/17a favorable peace deal would've been realistic at least, but the German leadership was too cocky and risked too much
>>224488215Yeah that was the issue. The entire political web he spun created massive power blocks that relied on his diplomacy to maintain and he started losing his mind without Wilhelm being competent enough to really fill his shoes. That framework was a major contributing factor in the war escalating to the scale it did. Bismark had a very unique character and while being a great diplomat was a complete hypochondriac and control freak and didnt really have a failsafe for the system in mind
>>224488648Do you find the word funny or what?>>224488708It's honestly a shame that history as a school subject has such a low priority.
>>224488902>The entire political web he spun created massive power blocksI think they were rather a systemic feature of post 1871 Europe. If Germany doesn't win Russia over it's France's turn
>>224488306>>224488376and why did Wilhelm think it was a good idea having the UK and the whole commonwealth against the German Empire??
>>224489190He didn't?
>>224489190he didn't, he was just to inept to prevent the confrontation
>>224489222then why did the engage in the war instead of backing off???
>>224489310Willy wasn't an absolute monarch who decided everythinghe was a bit like Trump except less evil but just as retarded
>>224489310This would've meant losing AH as Germany's last remaining ally and getting roflstomped by the rest of Europe in the not so long run. At least this way he had a fighting chance or so it probably seemed to him at that time
>>224487209Remember kids, ethnic cleansing is A-OK when commies do it!
>>224486622germany won the campaigns of 1940 doughbit >>224486961>The french never were more numerous than the Germansthe meme refers to the war of the first coalitionaround 1800 france had 10 million+ more people than german states
>>224489403>This would've meant losing AH as Germany's last remaining ally and getting roflstomped by the rest of Europe in the not so long runand why didn't you guys go for better alliances and relationships with the other europeans countries back then? In the end that alliance with AH did nothing but bite you guys in the ass
>>224489190Willie was an idiot who thought that building a navy equal to Britain's would make them friends, not enemies. He was a grandchild of Victoria who idolized Britain. He would have been far happier as an English Duke than as German Kaiser.
>>224486297Willy was the Trump of Germany
>>224488246>french "peoples armies" of equivalent sizeI had no idea this happened lol
>>224489551A-H was a good ally, they were junior to Germany and thus not unreliableGermany + A-H could deal with Russia + France, what was the mistake was alienating UK enough for them to side with Russia + France>>224489630apt comparison except Willy was no kid diddler and also not corrupt
>>224486315well wars back then were not fought until the bitter end spain and prussia peaced out meanwhile western allies would've never surrendered or peaced out even had D-Day failed - total warfor some reason monarchies seem to care more about their citizens in a way ... odd
>>224489551It was really all about Russia. Britain didn't commit and also didn't want us to get too powerful, France had every reason to hate us, Italy would always end up in the Entente's camp bc of economy, geography and claims on AH. In the end it boiled down to choosing between AH and Russia. AH won out bc of shared heritage and culture. The ideal strategy would had been to partition AH between Germany, Russia and Italy but hindsight
>>224489808>for some reason monarchies seem to care more about their citizens in a wayThey cared about their lands. The citizens technically didn't even existed, just subjects
>>224489435Somehow your neighbours get pissed at you after you try to kill and enslave them and kick you out
>>224489986>They cared about their lands.they obviously didn't since Spain ceded land when it made peace with France
>>224490032Which is why they let commies do it instead of nazis.
>>224490095The entire east Europe was sick of germans after the nigger tier behaviour they displayed during the war. They would've been pogromed if they remained
>>224490032>after you try to kill and enslave them Well, in turn, plenty of Germans were justified in being angry at certain Slavic nations.Some nasty things happened between 1918 and 1922: Poles invaded German-speaking territories, seized them, and gained control over them despite those territories voting to remain with Germany.Czechoslovak military troops also gunned down unarmed German protesters in 1918–19.
>>224490183>Some nasty things happened between 1918 and 1922: Poles invaded German-speaking territories, seized them, and gained control over them despite those territories voting to remain with Germany.>Czechoslovak military troops also gunned down unarmed German protesters in 1918–19.Have you tried not annexing others' people land so the locals don't start uprises against you?
Shouldn't have went for the Berlin-Baghdad railway and shouldn't have made the military so cocky that it barely wanted to listen to the king
>>224490324are you retarded?>Poles invaded German-speaking territoriesplus when was Czechoslovakia annexed by Germany?If anything, this point you just made should be turned around and directed toward Slavic countries.
>>224490444Willi allying with Ottomans is a grave sind and the reason why I could never be a Kaiserlarper
>>224490471>grave sindgrave sin*
>>224490183>Poles invaded German-speaking territories, seized them, and gained control over them despite those territories voting to remain with Germany.Oy vey, the glorious germman state could not compete with a bunch of newly organized half-amateur combat units? I really wonder what territories that voted to remain within Germany you are referring to, considering there were only two border polls regarding Poland - in east Prussia, which was entirely left as it was, and in upper Silesia, where most of it remained in Germany, and the territories incorporated into Poland after the war were those that had mostly voted in favor of merging anyway.
>>224489733>what was the mistake was alienating UK enough for them to side with Russia + Francehow preventable was having the UK fight against you guys? I don't think it was.
>>224490811>glorious germman state could not compete with a bunch of newly organized half-amateur combat unitsthe german military was banned from moving into those territories; they were under the administration of the Entente while negotiations were going on ( poles shot at and killed Entente soldiers during the Silesian uprisings btw; this includes more than 20 Italian soldiers)>I really wonder what territories that voted to remain within Germany you are referring toI am talking about Silesiaone example would be Lublinitz53% + of the district voted to remain with Germany; 85% of the city votes to remain with germanyduring the third Silesian Uprising Poles invaded this territory and in 1922 the city and about 80% of the district were handed over to Poland
>>224489435>Remember kids, ethnic cleansing is A-OK when commies do it!There's only so many times a nation can endure being brought to the brink of annihilation based on "helping our fellow oppressed Germans (;" as a casus belli before they decide such a potential fifth column and invitation to invasion just isn't worth it. Yes, it was genocide and ethnic cleansing. Yes, I would have also done the same as an Eastern Euro after WWI/WWII. "For me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."Which is a shame, because groups like Volga Germans were distinct subethnicities with their own culture and dialects.We lost so much with the German chimpouts :(>now the real question is: when are the Baltic states going to man up and finally do the needful?
>>224487858Germany was a civilized nation with educated people and high potential. Russians were still literally peasants. Use the peasants to fight your enemy.
>>224489630>Willy was the Trump of GermanyThat is extremely unfair to Willie.
>>224491135> Volga GermansVolga germans were already being deported in the late 1920s / early 1930s though
>>224489733>A-H was a good allyNigga they moved heaven and Earth to invade/genocide fucking Serbia and got their asses kicked. They were a moribound, barely-industrialized power with multiethnic internal strife. They were possibly the worst ally to have in Europe, with the possible exception of Italy or Spain.
>>224491209How so? Bombastic brinkmanship and overconfidence
>>224488418I have friends from near the polish border (ffo) who never showed any signs of being aware that the town just across the river had at any point in history been part of Germany or inhabited by Germans. In my history class I had to chud out and deliberately steer the conversation towards it to even mention the deportations of ceasure of territory by Poland, and legitimately only the other chuds in the class even knew what I was talking about. Most older people and some younger ones with better history education or ancestors from the areas will be aware, but I wouldnt be surprised if in the minds of 50+% of zoomers Germany has had its current borders since forever and there's zero need to question anything happening east of the Oder
>>224489190He didn't, he just personally hated them because he blamed a British doctor for his crippled arm
>>224491505based
>>224488498>>224488613Zoomer here, at my school it was medieval times, then Prussia and Freddy 2 giving us potatoes, the the french revolution, then a timeskip past the entire 19th century + ww1 right to the Weimar republic, then how that failed and the Nazis came to power, then 1 lesson on the war itself (where I did >>224491432), then post war reconstruction, cold war, Cuban missile crisis, differences between East and West, and eventually reunification, and then it's graduation time
>>224486297Blaming Germany's problems on Bismarck's dismissal (retirement really, he was a dinosaur by that point) is stupid because obviously Bismarck was going to die of old age one day no matter what, hence Germany would need to manage itself without him no matter what happens.
>>224490453You literally annexed Poland 100 years before ww1
>>224486315hitler thought he was gonna pull a napoleon in the end >>224486878>trying to provoke a civil war by wanting to ban the SPDnigga what? the nobles would have just put that rebellion down ezhe should have done it, fuck the SPD>>224486297it didn't fall apart because of muh realpolitik though, but because of british envy
>>224487209A very harsh but unavoidable lesson as to why Chud Politics in foreign policy is a terrible idea and why one should always stay sober and humble and not get too high off of your own farts
>>224490890Very preventable. Tensions had been high between France and GB mostly over colonial disputes. (GB screwed France out of Egypt and the competition between them over a N-S connection (GB) and an E-W connection (France) that culminated at Fashoda. Bismarck kept France isolated and and a transition from allying Russia to GB would have been fairly simple as GB feared Russian expansion in Asia as a threat to India, their biggest overseas possession. WW1 should have been GB-Germany-AH vs France-Russia-Italy.
>>224490890Impossible, UK's core strategy was to stop a possible continental hegemon, they did it vs France and when France started getting outpaced by Germany they stopped antagonizing them and fought the germs
>>224491742So did Russia and Austria.
>>224491742so?plenty of silesian territories had been german for centuries long before they annexed poland
>>224492355in fact afaik all of silesia was part of prussia before the partion of poland (majority prussian, the other part part of A-H)
>>224492287Yeah>>224492355So? Don't invade and annex other countries if you don't want to get kicked out when you lose
>>224492400>get kicked outthose territories had been german for centuries and never belonged to poland in the first place
>>224492140>UK's core strategy was to stop a possible continental hegemonWhy do people always assign this to the UK as if it wasn't the core strategy of literally everybody else on the continent as well?Nobody wanted to be the bitchboy of another hegemon dominating them, hence nobody else was interested in any confidential hegemon (other than themselves ofc) and everyone kept each other in check. The UK had nothing unique in this
TGD.
The Treaty of Versailles caused Germany to lose territories where they were mostly a minority.World War II caused them to lose regions they had held since the High Middle Ages—or at the very latest, the Late Middle Ages—and forced resettlements, yet you chuds treat it as if it were somewhat the same thing.
>>224487209You know what bothers me the most about this map?The fact that after cucking Germany of so much of its clay, they couldn't even take from it some of the clay it REALLY had no right having, by which I mean Schleswig. All of Schleswig should have gone back to Denmark.
>>224490890I think it was preventable. Germany should've isolated France & Russia from UK and make it clear Germany wants to contain those two but not achieve continental hegemony, that's what was UK's problem. Germany's strategy was too daring and essentially ignores UK's concerns.>>224491259they were inept militarily at the beginning but their geographic and cultural proximity made them a natural ally and they could have improved (and did, during the war, before the eventual defeat)>>224490444the Berlin-Baghdad railway was important, it was definitely not a mistakemaking the Ottoman resources more accessible was perfectly reasonable
>>224487209that hitler and the nazis were complete retards and failures and I will never vote for their spiritual successors.
>>224492884The others tried to conquer the continent while Britain was perfectly fine to expand overseas while cockblocking the continentals
>>224486297do these niggas ever learn?
they are a living joke
>>224486446Yeah but it's all French people.
>>224489435that's correct, actually. only commies should do genocide
>>224496115Maybe but if they won your people would not fall into this state.>but if they didn't gain power we would be better offMaybe, but it is not bad to want to further the cause of your people. I hate Hitler because he was our enemy but I don't see why Germans wouldn't want him to win even though they were insane in many aspects.
>>224486446We weren't as populated as the rest of Europe combined nigga, Especially not with Russia and the HRE.
>>224487209Why didn't we get anything
>>224488720I think there's simply no way Britain stays neutral with Germany invading neutral Belgium. It's too close to London for their comfort, they had already publicly supported Belgian neutrality 50 years or so prior. Germany would have had to invade through Alsace which is exactly what France prepared for, and while this doesn't automatically translate to a French victory at all it does help them a lot. Our industrious regions in the north would be mostly out of harm's way instead of being occupied like OTL, morale would be much stronger with less of the country occupied
>>224497694Did you even ask for something?
>>224497856imo, the wisest move for Germany would have been not to invade France at all. The border of Alsace-Lorraine was covered by the Vosges, well defensible territory. A French offensive could have been (and was) held off with a relatively small part of the German army. The main part of the German army should've been sent east toward Russia, that way Russia could've been forced to sue for peace earlier and also Austria-Hungary wouldn't have suffered as catastrophic losses early which impacted the whole war later on. The Schlieffen Plan was simply way too risky to responsibly pursue, it could've paid off but it was a risk not worth taking. Had Germany not attacked in the west, imo it's quite possible UK would've stayed neutral unless the demands imposed on Russia became unreasonable.
>>224497983Yeah, in the end Russia was the entente's weak point but your leadership had a complete psychosis over them, making them out to be far more of a threat than they actually were while France could be easily dispatched in a couple months. I guess on a map it was sound, Paris is much closer to Berlin than Moscow is but they didn't take into account that the Franco-German border would be much easier to defend than the ginormous one Russia had with the central powers, manpower could be moved in response to Germany's attempt at encircling the french army in Alsace really fast.I think you're right, Russia would collapse much faster and we would have no way to continue the war on our own, Italy would probably get involved sooner or later too and not on our side. I could even see Germany getting away with a few French colonies. Though to be fair, the Schlieffen plan was no less risky than the shit Hitler pulled out during ww2 and that paid out pretty well on the short term
>>224492400Mateusz you NEED to go back
>>224497629He should have either won or not tried at all
>>224498624hindsight is 20/20 but what I described is what Moltke the elder already suggested in the 1880s so it was not unknown, our generals just got overconfident and fatalistic like this was the only chance, disregarding the diplomatic and political consequences.I think Italy likely would've just stayed neutral in my scenario if A-H hadn't suffered so much in the beginning.>I could even see Germany getting away with a few French colonies. probably not much, maybe a little bit otherwise the UK would've got involved again if Germany got too dominant>the Schlieffen plan was no less risky than the shit Hitler pulled out during ww2debatableI mean in 1940 Germany had only one front, in 1914 it had twobut in relative terms I would say WW1 Germany was more powerful than WW2 Germany
>>224488605>>224488720You might have even been able to win in in 1917 even with Britain in the war. After knocking out Russia just don't bring the USA. If you had offered a generous peace in the West, maybe even agreeing to pay reparations you would have still come out ahead by exploiting the territorial gains in the East along with dominating the satellite states you created out of the Russian empire.
>>224497629>ut I don't see why Germans wouldn't want him to win even though they were insane in many aspects.Hitler and his ilk were fucking over and erasing established german culture for their own desires of power well before the war started. And all the good things that are ascribed to his early governing years, were just the continuations of late Weimar policies so it's not like he did anything new that could have been missed out.
>>224499310>And all the good things that are ascribed to his early governing years, were just the continuations of late Weimar policiesholy gigacope
>>224498862How could he knew if he would win or lose before the end result? Your only crime is losing. >>224499310I know. I mean, Hitler would not get anywhere without established (secret, or not so secret) relations between Weimar and USSR. He would not be able to go to war in 1939 without the foundation. But I think success of the government came too late and there were big revanchist and nationalist grievances amongst the Germans. Only cucks are fine with being defeated, you were not cucks.Not one of Hitler or German dicksuckers though, just trying to be objective.
>>224499642He is not wrong. I know you'll say that it's jew lies but Germany eventually did recover. Post-war years were pretty bad though. You also have to understand that sometimes economic growth is circumstantial and has nothing to do with the leadership. Just like how Putin's economic miracle was caused by higher price of oil barrels.Spain's economy started recovering when Franco accepted western demands and was not sanctioned by the Allied powers anymore. Unrestricted trade and investments obviously helped the Spanish economy. Had Spain remained under isolation without a compromise you'd call his government incompetent because he cannot alter reality. There is a human factor and there is a circumstantial factor.
>>224499732many Germans were revanchist, but not all of those were insane Nazisconservative types were more reasonable
>>224499831True, but the nazis won and Germans understood they have to stop division and side with their government because even though they might have disagreed with Hitler, they knew the price of loss. People think and punish rather collectively.
>>224499882sure. Most of those conservative types went along with Hitler even if they didn't agree with him 100%. And as long as he succeeded they were fine with it.
>>224499928Because that's the right thing to do and the right mentality. There is some lingering suspicion that the German scientists in the nuclear department might have purposefully sabotaged the program and even though it would not change the end result, imagine sabotaging your country knowing that the outcome is going to be rape and displacement of your people. Nobody is evil because he fought for his country, no matter the ethnicity in question.
>>224499642Sorry to burst your safespace, snowflake. >>224499732>But I think success of the government came too late and there were big revanchist and nationalist grievances amongst the Germans.Which were fueled by the same fags who were responsible for starting and even losing the war. If those great and noble leaders accepted an ounce of responsibility for their failures and not tried to undermine the new government at every opportunity Weimar would have been far more stable.>>224499831Those were the best ones. Hoping that Hitler would restore their noble privileges only to end as fodder for his war. But hey, at least Libs got triggered.
>>224500184Libs should not have been so despicable as they are today. Peaceful intentions doesn't automatically display nobility.
>>224498624>Yeah, in the end Russia was the entente's weak point but your leadership had a complete psychosis over them, making them out to be far more of a threat than they actually were while France could be easily dispatched in a couple months.France also thought Russia was hotshit. The reality is going for a quick knock-out punch on fucking Russia whilst defending on another front is asking for a rapid defeat.Germany did the only thing they militarily could. The blunder was a political one; their army had to much influence over state-policy. Germany should've just done nothing, come to an arrangement with France somehow over the Alsace (some kind of proto-internationalisation or something) and set itself against Russia - only, again, military meddling would've prevented any pacific policy.This shows the general defects of the Prussian system, and the overall superiority of Anglo Parliamentarian democracy.>>224498868Aside: 'hindsight is twenty twenty'. Just realised that refers to visual acuity, lmao.
so glad to know the g*rm menace will be gone in our lifetime
>>224498624>Russia first, defend in the WestIIRC that's what von der Goltz wanted but the Kaiser wanted another Moltke as chief of staff shrimple as
>>224500422Germans were sterilising nigger spawns from WW1 and had racial laws. They are our enemies but also the only ones that applied common sense.
>>224499041Thing is, three years into the war everyone was a little too broke for anything short of a full BL/ToV. Tbqh I think that was already the case in 1915 when the Central Powers had a very good year - so their half-assed attempts at peace negotiations went nowhere
>>224500549the fact they needed racial laws back then already says a lot about them
>>224500578You're blinded by your hatred of them.
kek germans are cucks
>>224500329Yeah wanting to stop the war that was clearly unwinnable was so despicable. It was far more noble to drag it out more, recieve harsher terms and then to pass the responsibility for the situation you created to those politicians who you made powerless over the course of the war.
>>224500422kek Ivan under Polish vpn got reactivated
>>224501065Purity of character matters more than winning or losing which does not matter at all, and all nationalists are of purer character than liberals.
>>224501648I don't think that shirking away from your failures and the resulting responsibilities is an indication for a pure character.
>>224487209Why do you care ahmed?
>>224502258Because you are caught in a web of lies of upper class merchant Germanics like Ursula von der Leyen that graduated at Brussels university for rights of gay african gorillas in China.
>>224502396>web of lies created by noble politicians in 2026:(>web of lies created by noble generals in 1918:)
>>224502396Von der Leyen studied medicine and has 7 white children while you simp for a guy that laid Europe in ruins and caused millions of dead Europeans
>>224502632>oh my reddit Von der Leyen studied medicineNot even politic sciences?
>>224486297desu Germany barely lost any land after WW1 and pretty much everything it lost bar few small areas was ethnically non-German. Hardly any war in history ended up with so little damage for its perpetrator. I don't know how they could be brainwashed into thinking that the world inflicted some great injustice upon them to go to another world war for that.
>>224502663yes and you surely are completely objective in this observation as a Poleyou're wrong btw, Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy and Danzig were >90% German speakingalso the reparations, army limitations, ocupation rights and restrictions on sovereignty were far-reachingI'm not saying it was as bad as the Nazis made it out to be but you are clearly biased and it certainly wasn't a soft peacea soft peace is what France got 1814/1815/1871.
>>224491432>who never showed any signs of being aware that the town just across the river had at any point in history been part of Germany or inhabited by GermansI like it desu, it's better if Germans forget about the "Ostgebiete" for good, it will help us stay peaceful.
>>224502740>1871>Soft peaceLOL
>>224502777yes. Germany occupied Paris yet only took one majority German-speaking border region that had been historically part of the HRE anyway. No colonies were taken, no limitations were imposed on France's military, no restrictions were imposed on France's rivers, no restrictions on the right to fortify or militarize French territory, and the indemnity was based on France's 1807 indemnity put on Prussia.
>>224502740>you're wrong btw, Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy and Danzig were >90% German speakingFirst of all, Alsatian being "German" is debatable. In any other country it would be considered a separate language, just Germans, for political reasons, tend to lump all Germanic dialects, no matter how mutually unintelligible they are, into one language to artificially increase the number of Germans.As for Gdańsk, yes, it is one of these few small areas I had in mind, and still, specifically for that reason it was made a free city despite the fact that for historical and economic reasons it would have been reasonable to give it to Poland. And this free city was completely autonomous culturally with German language and culture being the only prominent ones, so calling it great injustice to Germanness is, lightly speaking, a stretch.
>>224502580Pretty much.
>>2245026327 future servants of Israel.
>>224502856>First of all, Alsatian being "German" is debatable.no it isn't, you don't know what you are talking about, I live right next to Alsace.
>>224502850Maybe because taking Paris doesn't mean Germany was able to squeeze anything more from France? Just like in WW2 you occupied all of France yet you didn't get any of their colonies anyway. A colonial empire can be beaten in the mainland but still live overseas and prepare for revenge, which is pretty much what France did. But Germans apparently couldn't believe that because they're essentially continental in their way of thinking, for them losing the capital city means everything's over and you should surrender (therefore they will never be fully western European).
>>224502940Honestly kind of crazy how high Russia and Serbia score in terms of Europeanness by those metrics. Weird it's coming from a Pole.
>>224502940Germany could have squeezed more out of France in 1871 but Bismarck was wise and knew it would anger Britain and Russia so he didn't demand too much. The point is, objectively, Versailles 1919 was a harsh treaty, Frankfurt 1871 was not.>they will never be fully western Europeanlol at the projection
>>224502918Yes it is, real Alsatian is hardly understandable to a Hochdeutsch speaker. Obviously nowadays few people speak real Alsatian, most speak either regular French or standard German if they learn it at school. Just because you hear guys in Strasbourg trying to speak regular German to you but also accidentally putting French words here and there doesn't mean it is "Alsatian". You're unlikely to meet someone speaking real Alsatian as a German tourist to Alsace desu, you'd need to go to some villages for that.
>>224503005Alsatian is an Alemannic dialect just like the ones spoken across the Rhine. I know you're a Pole and want to shit on anything German but please give it a rest, it's cringe to read.
>>224502850And you totally ignored the amount of death and destruction caused by that war vs. World War 1.So, tell me, do you think the number of deaths, both civilian and military, along with the damage to to land and property and economy should have ANY bearing at all on the size of the reparations imposed on the losing side that caused that destruction?
>>224503067no you're right. Obviously that played into it. But that wasn't part of the debate before. Also, the war of 1806/07 was way less bloody than 1870/71, yet the terms imposed on Prussia by France were even harsher than Versailles. So again, what is this meme that Germany/Prussia was so harsh to France and France so lenient? It's bullshit.
>>224502964huh? that's literally the opposite of what Russia/Serbia are, they are even more continental countries than Germany is. For Russians losing the capital city always meant to lose everything as Russia is extremely centralized. And that's why in the Napoleonic wars Russians sacrificed Moscow with no remorse, burning it to the ground - just to save the newly built capital in Petersburg, because if Petersburg failed, Russians would have surrendered immediately. And the same in WW2 - Russians gave up on Leningrad, leaving it to starve in siege for years, just to prepare for defense of Moscow. If Leningrad was the capital city in the USSR, obviously the priorities would have been the other way round. Same about Serbia - 1999 proved it well - several airstrikes against Belgrade was enough to make Serbia surrender, as Serbs couldn't imagine that one could sacrifice the capital city for whatever provincial territory.
>>224503036>Alemannic dialectBoth Italian and French are "Romance dialects" that could be as well considered the same language if there was enough political will for that, just they don't need to do that because they know it would be artificial. You know the saying that the language is a dialect with an army.
>>224503196please just stop making embarrassing posts. It's fine that you like France and dislike Germany, but you don't have to act retarded due to it.
>>224503135>For Russians losing the capital city always meant to lose everything as Russia is extremely centralizedPoland occupied Moscow in 17th century and failed to impose any demands, that's what I meant.>And that's why in the Napoleonic wars Russians sacrificed Moscow with no remorse, burning it to the groundIt was a strategic decision because Napoleon was extended too far and got raped by winter and lack of shelter.>because if Petersburg failed, Russians would have surrendered immediatelyKinda crazy that it's a pure hypothetical.>And the same in WW2 - Russians gave up on Leningrad, leaving it to starve in siege for yearsWhat do you mean? They never gave up on Leningrad, it never fell, first real Soviet victory was the one that stopped Germans from cutting off Leningrad.>If Leningrad was the capital city in the USSR, obviously the prioritiesA country doesn't want it's capital to fall? Shocking.>Same about Serbia - 1999 proved it wellWhy doesn't WW1 prove it well? Serbian territory fell but our armed forces and the government never capitulated. In 1999 we lasted 78 days while NATO thought we would last a few days. Milosevic didn't sign the capitulation because Belgrade got bombed.>as Serbs couldn't imagine that one could sacrifice the capital cityThat's not what happened.
>>224503213I don't like or dislike anyone, I'm trying to be objective here. >>224502995>The point is, objectively, Versailles 1919 was a harsh treaty,while we could argue about severity of the financial burden it imposed on Germany but territorially-wise it was very lenient - which was exactly why Foch called it an armistice for 20 years.
>>224503213Poles unironically can't help themselves but do just that. >>224503241Oh and my bad. Milosevic did not really capitulate. He signed Kumanovo, a much better offer than Rambouillet so not a capitulation in real terms.
>>224503260Don't exhaust yourself from all that hard attempt at objectivity ITT.
>>224486297Truly Germany is the Christ of nations and deserves territorial expansion this century
>>224503241>Poland occupied Moscow in 17th century and failed to impose any demands, that's what I meant.While Poland might not have achieved all the political targets, still the final conclusions of the peace treaty in 1619 were extremely positive for Poland - Poland annexed Smolensk and reached its territorial peak ever. And Poland didn't really capture Moscow in a military sense - just the Polish army was let into the Kremlin by the pro-Polish boyars but when the anti-Polish boyars found it out, they started siege of the Kremlin along with Muscovians. Russians didn't even have the sense that Moscow was lost as the city of Moscow wasn't really Polish-controlled. >It was a strategic decision because Napoleon was extended too far and got raped by winter and lack of shelter.Again - if you ever consider that burning down the biggest and wealthiest city in the country just to save the small political centre and the tsar's palace could be called a "strategic decision" then it's pretty much the embodiment of the continental way of thinking. >They never gave up on Leningrad, it never fell,They gave up in the sense that they focused most of their forces on Moscow, while Leningrad got minimal support and it wasn't captured only because of fierce resistance from its residents. >A country doesn't want it's capital to fall? Shocking.Yes, for continentals. For naval empires it's not a big deal. When Paris fell down, the government just moved to the colonies and it was nothing more than a symbolic event, the country didn't stop existing. Similarly when Lisbon was conquered in 19th century, the Portuguese king moved to Brazil as if nothing happened. >Why doesn't WW1 prove it well? Serbian territory fell but our armed forces and the government never capitulated.Exceptions confirm the rule.
>>224503116I think the Treaty of Versailles was harsh.But just because it was harsh does not preclude the fact that I think that it was fair.The leniency of the treaty was in the enforcement. As time went on, even well prior to 1933 Germany began to skirt and then obviously defy the terms of the treaty.
>>224503543fair viewpoint, but you can't find it surprising Germany defied it because it impacted Germany's sovereignty in a major way which wasn't usual to previous peace treaties
>>224503808>wasn't usual to previous peace treatiesMaybe if you mean the peace treaties a united Germany was the party of (which means basically two treaties - with Austria and France). Because with other European countries peace treaties impacting the losing side's sovereignity was pretty much a normal thing. Just apparently Germans couldn't understand why they are treated like a "regular country".
>>224486297https://youtu.be/fPUOT46ucrk?si=RqoFyKkKS81ROb5x&t=161
>>224503929No, you don't know what you are talking about. Nobody demanded France to demilotarize part of its territory in 1815 or 1871 or to open its rivers to international shipping. Please talk to somebody else, it's very tiresome to argue with you Poles, you never care about what's discussed, you are like little children and just want to bring the point home that Germany is le bad.
>>224503537>Again - if you ever consider that burning down the biggest and wealthiest city in the country just to save the small political centre and the tsar's palace could be called a "strategic decision" then it's pretty much the embodiment of the continental way of thinking.Petersburg was bigger and wealthier than Moscow at the time, but Russians razed Moscow to keep fighting. Kind of western European it seems.>They gave up in the sense that they focused most of their forces on MoscowBecause Moscow couldn't be allowed to fall, not because losing the capital would lead to automatic capitulation, but because it was a neurological centre in terms of infrastructure. You can hardly lead the defense of the entire front without Moscow.>but it proves my point! Stupid asians centralised everythingSuch a huge country inevitably has to centralise it's power. Try to decentralize rail network and infrastructure in that poor country. Not really possible unless it's in imagination.Leningrad received support and both Russians and Germans fought bitterly over lake Ladoga and the area south of it.But you cannot forsake the centre. If Leningrad falls, USSR can still defend. If Moscow falls, that is less possible though they still planned for it and wouldn't surrender. Anyways, in reality Germans were very far from ever capturing Moscow though the distance seems short.>Exceptions confirm the rule.You've been twisting and redefining every historical reality just to suit whatever argument going on that Germany isn't western.>Yes, for continentals. For naval empiresBut nobody defines western Europe as purely made up of naval powers.
>>224503981>Nobody demanded France to demilotarize part of its territory in 1815 or 1871But there were other types of demands that one could easily consider "violating the sovereignity" - first of all, the foreign powers decided who should be the ruler of France in 1815, which is enough to realize how humiliating it must have been for French people, after the whole revolution. There was no need for partial demilitarization of some border territory as wars were waged differently in early 19th century than they were in early 20th century, obviously, not because the victorious side was benevolent to France.
>>224503984>Germany isn't western.That's true and that was confirmed by many French/English politicians, writers, philosophers, travellers etc. They would always say that Germans and Germany exhibit the foreign, "eastern" vibe from their perspective. That was obviously even stronger 100 years ago, when Germany's core was essentially "eastern" Prussia and a large part of the German influential political class, so the junkers, came from the east. And funnily enough, Berlin would be often compared to Petersburg back then - a soulless bureaucratic monster with no history, no independent thought, typical "oriental despotic capital", as they loved using this comparison back then.
Let me spell out what the west is.West is largely an area of equals. UK, France, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, Denmark, Austria, Norway, Sweden.It is not really a geographic designation, because you cannot make a country western like in the case of Czechia where you'll pick a ruler and say that it's west of Vienna hence it's western. Neither are you western because you killed muslims or Russians. That is a self-designated title.A real western country does not cope like this. Nobody in the West denies each other's westernhood. Nobody in London spends his days denying that Sweden or Germany are not western. They treat each other as cultural and civilisational equals.Worst of all, the crying of peripheal European territories to be called western just proves one thing: wealth and power lie in the west. Nobody cries out to be in the zone of Belgrade, Warsaw or Zagreb. That really none of these people want to be associated with Moscow is none of the West's business and it represents a lack of identity in the peripheal region. And after all, Poland and Serbia have very little to do with each other, very little cultural exchange has been going on historically, so there cannot be a real eastern Europe either. What do Croatia and Bulgaria have in common either.You will never become western by trying to undermine the countries already considered to be west or by crying and saying you killed muslims and Russians. They don't care. And funny thing is, modern westerners look weirdly at such things because the last time they have killed anybody is ages ago. They drink wine, beer and don't care about history.
>>224504230btw, interesting how both Berlin and Petersburg were built on swamps and it is kinda like part of their identity. I guess there must be something specifically "oriental" with absolutist rulers having a whim to harness the power of nature, to show their own strength and build the capital city from the scratch in the least feasible place to imagine. I think someone should write a thesis about that, trying to locate all the capital cities built on swamps in history and how it correlates with these countries being absolutist, despotic empires.
>>224503476
Losing German Civilization was the greatest loss in all of humanity. Most people alive can't even begin to understand what was lost.
>>224504340kys monkeybot 1.0
>>224504230Germans have warred and razed in Europe but no Frenchman or Englishman will deny that it's part of the west, but they will literally laugh at the notion that some Slavic countries think they are western.Butthurt bickering of upper class individuals doesn't mean anything.Germans were forgiven for murdering and pillaging while Poles are not forgiven for being more vulnerable to alcohol and being more criminal, just like we are not.Germans can go on 10 more rampages before a westerner will ever see a Serb or a Pole as equals.We are at best either hated for being vaguely eastern or liked for being auxillaries against Turkey and Russia (failed ones when you look into it because Russia defeated Poland and Serbia was occupied by Turkey for centuries - neither powers were defeated by the two named countries). But we are not equal even if we are liked and disliked by some.
>>224504344>German Civilizationno such thing to begin with. Germany only emerged in late 1800s so such a young country couldn't create any meaningful civilization
>>224504414It was nipped in the bud
>>224504407>will deny that it's part of the west,they might obviously consider it part of the wide West in the civilizational sense, but that's also how they consider Japan part of it, that's something different.But it doesn't mean they consider Germany part of the same culture like France or England. >Germans were forgivenWere they? I thought chuds constantly complain about how Germany still has to apologize for everything to this day. zasto si tako jadan danas bre? izgubio si nadu za promjene u srbiji?
>>224500184>Sorry to burst your safespace, snowflake.nigga you are just repeating regime propaganda because they can't bear the thought that hitler contributed anything positively to german society.
>>224504340BODIED that freak
