Mostly want to continue the conversation from last thread. Though I'm open for other lore discussion as well.
Give me the lore on this guy
>>50202874That fucking ladder never ceases to bother me.Why is it there? Where does it lead to?>>50202881Paranoid Doomposter. He got better
>>50202529>Here's what gets me anon, I don't really care how you want to interpret the series but to have the sheer audacity to claim that other people are making the setting into some sort of playgound while being hyper fixated on a small part of the franchise is insaneLet me explain something here:>while being hyper fixated on a small part of the franchise is insaneHere's the key part of this sentence: >Small partThat is the difference and the reason why I can say, without shame, that waifufags are the once polluting Touhou. Even if you want to argue I am hyper fixated, and to a certain extent I won't even deny that. At least I am hyper fixated on something that is a part of the franchise. As opposed to most "fans" who are hyper fixated on something that is NOT part of the franchise. >and you are just as willfully ignorant of the series tone and themes as they are.Please. I actually have a basic understanding of the tone and themes. Your average waifufag not only has no understanding, they outright reject any understanding. >Hell, at least waifufags (ideally) have a strong interest in exploring the characters from a narrative and real world inspiration standpoint, No, they have a strong interest in exploring made up fanon ideas of the character that have no bearing on the actual character or the real world inspiration. You can disagree with my interpretation all you want, but at least they are actual interpretation based on the characters as they exist in canon. Not just shitty fanon memes. >a thesis which has next to zero actual relevance to the stories told within the official works.It's literally 80% of at least two of the manga.>That's your ideal Touhou?Absolutely not. But it's the best example, despite all of it's flaws. Because it does actually explore the themes of Touhou through the lens (AKA, just doing the plot of Mother 3). Unlike 99% of fangames, which do not. >You are trying to twist Touhou into something it's not.You can keep repeating that as much as you want. But I've actually discussed from the basis of canon. Not a single waifufag can actually do that.
>>50202898*Through the lens of mother.
>>50202892Somebody wanted to build a ladder to heaven.
>>50202905But Heaven's closed!
Very random question but is it possible for a being to be half-youkai, half-god? Something that feed on both fear and worship rather than just one emotion.
>>50202910Kanako. "Worship or I will curse you, lowly mortal. HEY, STOP MASTURBATING WHILE LOOKING AT ME!
>>50202910isn't that just larva?
>>50202898Bishoujo is just as much an element of Touhou as dark fantasy, arguably moreso since it so heavily informs the tone and direction of these stories. Look at practically any Touhou ending and you'll see the same thing, light and breezy fluff where everyone settles their differences with a tea party. You keep saying shit but none of it has any semblance of depth or even self awareness. You talk about how you appreciate the game's themes but all you ever do is indulge in this pointless grimsokyo discussion with no end goal outside of proving how grim and serious your personal interpretation of the work is. That's just masturbation.
>>50202909That's why it suddenly stopped. >>50202910>Very random question but is it possible for a being to be half-youkai, half-god? In some versions Kintoki is actually the son of a mountain hag(Nemuno?) and the god of thunder.
>>50202910Well gods can use fear in moderate amounts to ensure obedience, as long as worship remain the primary emotion.
>>50202933Science buck breaks them doe.
>>50202920Larva is implied to be a god that lost too much faith and became a fairy, specifically. Not exactly the same thing.
>>50201784Look, Nork-san, we aren't getting nowhere. We could write a holy book at this point with our replies to each other, but its not fun anymore. Just know that you aren't right and are pushing a view of Gensokyo that isn't accurate to the more mainstream one>Now show it compared to the actual past. Not 10 years ago.Funny you say that, because the japanese government only admitted that they had a suicide problem very very recently>Only two of those COULD be considered evil. Not all criminals or people holding a grudge are automatically evil, let alone deserving of deathAlready adressed that in >>50199116. But the good news is that youkai are more likely to eat your average scumbag than a goody two shoes because apparently all that wickedness adds to the flavour>>50201926Because they are killing undesirables. If Yukari truly abducts people into Gensokyo, and evil people are the tastiest according to canon, then Yukari obviously must have a preference for that type of people, actually making the Outside World a favourAnyway, have a nice day
>>50202978REIMU IS TURKIHS????
>>50202892>He got betterNoooooooo
>>50202921>BishoujoA VERY broad term. Arguably not even entirely applicable to Touhou since it actually does very heavily appeal to women. Regardless, the most sexualized Touhou has ever gotten was the Tengu panty shots in one of the print works. And even then that actually had a context behind it. Using that as justification for turning all of Gensokyo into your own personal waifu heaven is fucking psychotic no matter how many Bishoujo influences you quote. At least two of the manga are actually about the human village. This isn't To Love Ru or Koihime†Musou.>Look at practically any Touhou ending and you'll see the same thing, light and breezy fluff where everyone settles their differences with a tea party.1: All of the endings being tea parties is mostly a meme. 2: The ending is not the entire story. In actual content Touhou is largely closer to something like a magical girl anime. >You talk about how you appreciate the game's themes but all you ever do is indulge in this pointless grimsokyo discussion with no end goal outside of proving how grim and serious your personal interpretation of the work is.1: This is a anonymous website. I engage in other arguments all the time. You just don't recognize me then. 2: The discussions are only pointless because of you. Your entire argument just comes down to: "Well, it's not that bad." Which, yes, sure. It's not as bad as being a peasant in the thirty year war. Congratulations, you have accomplished the bare minimum. Every single argument you have about why it's somehow better than the outside world is ludicrous, self defeating, and based on headcanons. 3: I have plenty of points behind my argument. In this very conversation the main thing I'm trying to prove is that you, or at least waifufags(You might not be one) are the cancer killing Touhou. In previous threads my main argument was mostly about how Reimu was spoiled. As well as pointing out that the human villagers deserve to be free. You, or at least somebody like you, turned that into a endless repeat of "Well, it's not that bad" rather than actually challenging any of my points.
>>50202978>Just know that you aren't right How? I'm fine with you not wanting to argue, but don't just randomly claim "You are wrong" if you don't want to explain it.>and are pushing a view of Gensokyo that isn't accurate to the more mainstream oneGood, the mainstream view is shitty fan memes and glorified waifu slop. I'll take canon over both any day of the week.>Funny you say that, because the japanese government only admitted that they had a suicide problem very very recentlyYou could be right about that, and it still wouldn't change the fact that your argument is seriously overblown.>But the good news is that youkai are more likely to eat your average scumbag than a goody two shoes because apparently all that wickedness adds to the flavourYoukai eat anybody they can get their hands on. At best you could argue Yukari is more likely to abduct criminal people. Either way: I actually believe in due process. So, this is still murder to me. >Because they are killing undesirablesYou forced me to do this, but that's: Literal straight up Nazi shit. Is that your defense of youkai? Comparing them to the one group of people that we were objectively correct to hunt down and whose death caused the world to be a objectively better place?
>>50203031>Using that as justification for turning all of Gensokyo into your own personal waifu heaven is fucking psychoticStrawman aside, it's no different than hyperfixating on the darker folk tale elements and declaring that is the true Touhou.>This isn't To Love Ru or Koihime†Musou.And it isn't Berserk either.>All of the endings being tea parties is mostly a meme.It really isn't. Obviously they aren't all tea parties but they're practically all two or more characters having a casual friendly conversation.>In actual content Touhou is largely closer to something like a magical girl anime.That's an even more vague category than bishojo.
>>50203064>it's no different than hyperfixating on the darker folk tale elements and declaring that is the true Touhou.Did I ever do that? I literally said last time: "Touhou is first and foremost a vessel for ZUN to make music".>And it isn't Berserk either.Not a good comparison either. Something like Fate Stay Night is probably closer, at least when the human village is concerned. Overall though, I would say it's mostly just Puyo Puyo. >Obviously they aren't all tea parties but they're practically all two or more characters having a casual friendly conversation.Friendly is debatable. Either way, like I said, endings aren't the entire game. >That's an even more vague category than bishojo.I would say it's less vague than Bishojo, frankly.
>>50203087You refuse to acknowledge the light tone of the endings and then point at the game stories as if there are ever any consequences or actually moments. Show me a character actually dying on screen in a game. Anything dark is typically left off screen, because that's not something the series is all that interested in exploring.
>>50203112>You refuse to acknowledge the light tone of the endingsI do not. I simply point out that a ending does not determine the whole story. Besides, a light tone is different from a story being dark. There are plenty of dark stories with light tones.>and then point at the game stories as if there are ever any consequences or actually moments. No, I'm pointing at the actual physical acts of playing the game. Which is anything but light and fluffy. That combination of elements is largely what defines Touhou. >because that's not something the series is all that interested in exploring.It's one of the key parts of at least two of the manga. As well as a major factor in most other print works. Even Alternative facts, which is mostly a joke, gets in on it.
>>50202920>>50202961If one takes the mythological origins of Lampads into account, it could be fairies and gods are one-in-the-same, it's just that fairies are what gods are, when they aren't worshiped as gods.
>>50203408Stop stealing my ideas faggot.
The girls are cute and all that but uh I rather fly and spellcard duel In my self insert thank you very much. Women are nothing but trouble. 'Risa is pretty based though.
>>50202874I think it’s funny that people focus on the grimness of the village when the villagers aren’t even the ones getting the shit end of the stick, it’s the outsiders. All talks about human/youkai relationships fall flat when youkai are only nice to the villagers because they need them. The outside humans are the ones that show how the youkai really treat people and go through the worst torture and death going by the lore.
>>50204356The things is the outsiders can at least die on their own two feet instead of being oppressed in and forced to live in an open air zoo.
>>50204356We don't even have evidence of outsider humans being tortured, even the darkest (non-canon) touhou media, DiPP, simply had the outsiders get hunted down and eaten for the most part.>>50204371>instead of being oppressed in and forced to live in an open air zoo.I hope you aren't the anon who was sperging out about people having incorrect lore takes, because after saying something this stupid that'd be pretty embarrassing.
>>50202874So many male human villagers and yet none have flirted with Reimu, Maria, Byakuren, Sakura, Miko, Seiga, Miyoi or Mamizou(human disguise)?Are they gay?
>>50204450That's because villagers only like real Youkai women.
>>50204450I think ZUN is too afraid that some nutcase fan would shoot him in the streets if he ever dared to touch the topic of romance in relation to a named character in canon works.
Do Youkai women prefer their human men to be 100% pure-blooded? Or are they also cool with half ones?
>>50204356Anyone trying to be an advocate for the villagers is wasting their time; they're in on the kefayble enough to know how to game it just like everyone else is. It's the fairies and outsiders who have to deal with the blowback from Gensokyo's brutal systems.
>>50205667True, fairies have it very rough being treated like the sock in an all-male dorm room by the villagers, but at least they usually forget it after. Meanwhile the outsiders get passed around like the communal dildo and they have to remember it.
how can the people of Human Village defend themselves against a youkai attack?
>>50204450its pretty easy to say that youd fuck a youkai, but the notion of doing it is like doing it with an animal that can speak. its like the whole uncanny valley phenomena, you would think that there wouls be more half youkai around, but its beyond rare>bykauren, miko, seiga1 has ptsd from when humanity turned against her and sealed her in makai, also tries to keep appearances as a nun, even if she's shady2 is a power hungry narcissist, will only marry if it served her goals, and so far, she won't be needing it soon, or ever3 has quite the backstory involving marriage and being extremely unhappy in it, despite being treated fairly well. freedom is her true love>Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya1 wants to live a peaceful life without many changes, so far doesn't seem interested2 is as independent as it gets3 works for vampires, and also acts too much like a youkai, so she's unsettlingits not like the village is running low on cute women or anything, seeing kosuzu and akyuu
>>50202910Because they are both very malleable creatures made out of human perception and some myths sort of overlap making the distinction even harder. Like how Kogasa seemingly is just a regular Tsukumogami but also taps into the myth of Ippondatara and is a great blacksmith.
>>50204371>All talks about human/youkai relationships fall flat when youkai are only nice to the villagers because they need them. I would say "Being nice" is given them too much credit. Otherwise, yes, outsiders do have it worse.>>50204378>We don't even have evidence of outsider humans being tortured,Not exactly tortured. But PMISS does mention outsiders are typically kept as entertainment for a while before being killed. Make of that what you want.>I hope you aren't the anon who was sperging out about people having incorrect lore takes, because after saying something this stupid that'd be pretty embarrassing.No, that's me. Though he is 100% correct.
>>50204450 Nobody flirting with Reimu and Marisa really makes no sense. I get they are kind of weird outsiders. But they are clearly trusted by the general community. Also Kosuzu would probably be married off if this was a traditional society. >>50204504Pretty much. A shame since it makes the main characters and the human villagers come across as very sexless.
>>50205667>they're in on the kefayble enough to know how to game it just like everyone else isAre they? Because a lot of the more recent manga implies they aren't.>>50205681>Have to remember itFor the few seconds of life they have left after the youkai gets bored of them.
>>50205990>is a power hungry narcissist, will only marry if it served her goals, and so far, she won't be needing it soon, or everI also imagine her having a female body now means she probably won't be as open to it.>has quite the backstory involving marriage and being extremely unhappy in it, despite being treated fairly well. freedom is her true loveHer not being kind of a whore is weird, frankly. She seems like a girl that loves one night stands.> wants to live a peaceful life without many changes, so far doesn't seem interestedShe does actually. Just, nobody seems to ask. >is as independent as it getsSame as reimu. Honestly think she would have a lot of fanclubs in the human village.>works for vampires, and also acts too much like a youkai, so she's unsettlingYeah. Youmu is more likely. >its not like the village is running low on cute women or anything, seeing kosuzu and akyuuBoth of which are also single. Same for Keine.
>>50206021>Nobody flirting with Reimu and Marisa really makes no senseMost men like nice, demure women and those two are anything but.
>>50206041>Most men like nice, demure women and those two are anything but.Very debatable if that would still be the case in Gensokyo. Either way, there would be enough people that either want to be Marisa or want to move up in the world by marrying Reimu.
>>50205990>byakuren>has ptsd from when humanity turned against herByakuren turned against humanity, first by pursuing forbidden magic to escape her mortality (granted, the reason was very human, but still), then by facilitating the deaths of innocent humans by posing as a youkai exterminator, only to aid youkai instead. PTSD my ass. She's suffering from tremendous thanatophobia due to her brother's death, but that's about it. Didn't mean she had to resort to murder over it, but she still did. Her sealing was an act of self-defence on "humanity's" part.>miko>power hungry narcissistWhich is why she readily left a country she'd been governing behind, then gave up the notion of ruling the Human Village with little more than a shrug, right? Oh, and she lives in isolation of her own devising and wishes because she's just that power hungry, right? What nonsense.
>>50206119I don't think it was mentioned anywhere in canon that Byakuren is a murderer. Although I've seen some pretty interesting doujin works with that premise, it sort of goes against her entire ideology and also I don't think Shou or Nazrin would be with her if that was the case.
>>50206033>She does actually.>Same as reimu. nah, these two are as aromantical as it gets, especially marisa>Yeah. Youmu is more likely.youmu is a hyper violent retard who would be a serial killer if yuyuko didn't have her on a leash
>>50206119are you that nork guy?>Byakuren turned against humanitybyakuren was exterminating youkai, the irredemable ones, while trying to aid the ones that had some hope going for them. humans didn't like it that she was aiding some youkai when they found out, so they sealed her in makai. they turned on her>What nonsense.her whole thing is that she's planning to return as a taoist messiah to the Outside World when the time comes. you might not understand it because you're going to die in a few decades, but miko has centuries and centuries of existence ahead of her, so she can be more patient. ruling the human village, in the grand picture, was just a pet project she abandoned pretty quickly when she saw it was not worth it
>>50206041Marisa is nice
>>50204356>it’s the outsiders.i always thought this was very stupid in the long run, Gensokyo is one anointed outsider murder away to being discovered and having an Inter-Realm diplomatic catastrophe. if not outright getting purged. and yes outsiders not only implies outside world humans, but also Hell denizens, Makai, lunarians, anything that is not Gensokyan...
>>50206129>nah, these two are as aromantical as it gets, especially marisaWe see them get flustered at the sight of a couple. >youmu is a hyper violent retard who would be a serial killer if yuyuko didn't have her on a leashSounds like Ushi from FGO. Aka: Perfect wife material.
>>50206381Cute and canon homosexuals.
>>50206126She helped dangerous Youkai get away. Most likely allowing them to murder people elsewhere.>>50206181>are you that nork guy?Nope. That's me.>byakuren was exterminating youkai, the irredemable ones, while trying to aid the ones that had some hope going for them.I don't think it was ever said she had any standards. She saved Murasa, who is largely irredeemable. >was just a pet project she abandoned pretty quickly when she saw it was not worth itShe mostly wants to rule with actual consent.
>>50206395>She helped dangerous Youkai get away. Most likely allowing them to murder people elsewhere.Ah, that makes more sense. although I don't think that's what the other guy meant, nor what is meant to be implied in canon.
>>50206181>they turned on herAnon, please. Byakuren is far from innocent, and the retribution she invited was, as a matter of fact, invited. Think about it for a second. At best she swindled those who believed her supposedly priestly word and employed her services. At worst her actions led to the deaths of those she swindled either immediately or down the line. All the while being motivated by entirely human and very understandable fears. This hypocrisy is what makes her character interesting (if detestable) and fun to observe. Please don't try to take it away from her.
>IMG
>>50202910I think so. Fantasy things exist on belief of some kind, it can even be some fucked up buddhist "I believe I don't exist, therefore I can believe myself to exist" that Byakuren is peddling as the alternative to human fear. In fact, her temple's inhabitants solidify their existence with a combination of acting according to their base nature and buddhism.I don't see worship being radically different. Sayaka is a self-proclaimed atheist, and I think there have been other hints that there's not that clear of a difference between youkai and gods.>>50204356That stuff is vaguer so it's harder to argue about, but I agree. The charitable interpretation is that both the village and a steady supply of outsiders are absolutely necessary to ensure the fantasy beings don't fade away. A modern civilization and a scientific mind are kryptonite for fantasy, so keeping the village as is at least makes sense.Many of the fantasy beings have reinvented themselves to fit their new situation, like Kanako becoming a god of progress, the buddhism experiments in the Byakuren temple, and implications that the cute girl appearances are already an adaptation from the man-eating days. Is it *really* necessary for some youkai to keep eating people?
>>50206395>I don't think it was ever said she had any standards.byakuren was very willing to rip mizuchi's head off in the manga, that implies something>She saved Murasa, who is largely irredeemablewas largely irredeemable*>She mostly wants to rule with actual consentdoesnt change the facts>>50206486>Anon, pleasedon't 'please' me. is byakuren innocent? no, we all know that she should have killed youkai like murasa first chance, no redemption allowed. did she mess up at some point when a youkai took advantage of her good will? yes, absolutely. but the main reason why she was sealed in makai was because she was playing two sides, and humanity wasn't having it. the wiki is somewhat clear about this. nowadays, she's respected by the villagers of gensokyo to some extent, so her message of coexistence isnt that bad or undesirable when it undergoes the right way. its up to you if you think byakuren's goals, as selfish and dangerous as they are, are worth pursuing or not
>>50206951> nowadays, she's respected by the villagers of gensokyo to some extent, so her message of coexistence isnt that badWell duh, everyone in Gensokyo is more or less following her lead in that regard as much as they can without breaking the system, even if it outwardly goes against the spirit of what Human/Youkai relations are supposed to be.Kind of like how the Lunarians' most detestable aspects are the fact they interpret morality along the lines of not getting the icky sin-juice that is kagare all over them while sinning, instead of realizing that the kagare is there to discourage sin to begin with.
>>50206884>Is it *really* necessary for some youkai to keep eating people?It was never necessary. Youkai do it because they like it. >Sayaka is a self-proclaimed atheist, I honestly tend to assume that's her talking from a western perspective. Like "None of these Kami are actually the capital G god.
>>50207833Correction, the Kappa did it because they were dumb.
>>50207025> nowadays, she's respected by the villagers of gensokyo to some extent, so her message of coexistence isnt that badVillagers are all over the place about religion. Alternating between general adhere and not giving a shit like a stereotype of modern Japanese people.
>>50207842The Kappa are fucking comedically retarded considering there is literally a salt merchant in gensokyo.
Fine! If you don't want me to please you then I'll just stop replying.
>>50207899You can never be Nork's friend like I am.Weep, rot, and decompose.
>>50207833>I honestly tend to assume that's her talking from a western perspectivemore likely she's atheist as in 'i don't follow, or pray to, no god', like how ancient greeks defined atheism, which is basically to deny worship to the gods, rejecting them. modern atheism, whose definition comes from late 16th France, are actually antitheists, AKA people that directly oppose the gods
>>50207988The modern, western definition of atheism comes from the biblical idea that by not following the 'true' god, you're in direct opposition to him. That's why you don't hear the term antitheism much in the west
>>50207988That's also certainly possible.My dumb headcanon is that Remilia, as well as all vampires, are actually created by Satan so it makes sense Sakuya would be a old school atheist like that.
>>50208166Christianity isn't canon to Touhou.
>>50207988Which is kind of suspect when her treatment of Remilia is worship in all but name, much like how the difference between ancestor worship and the veneration of saints is basically semantics even though the former is considered tantamount to Paganism to your average Christian.>>50208166Vampires seem like a candidate for a Youkai type that was made by the Lunarians to test the limits of youkaidom, possibly by artificially altering Oni essence and injecting it into people like they were the Greys.
>>50208196>Which is kind of suspect when her treatment of Remilia is worship in all but nameBeing devoted to someone isn't the same as worshipping them, unless you're bringing the old theory of Remilia mind controlling Sakuya to serve her>Vampires seem like a candidate for a Youkai type that was made by the LunariansAgain with the whole lunarians creating youkai thing?
>>50208170You're absolutely right, if you ignore Seiga referencing Christ, Rumia referencing Christ, Sanae having a spell card that references a biblical story, and Christmas canonically leaking into Gensokyo.Now, you could say that Christianity is a lie in Touhou, which would probably be correct, but it does very obviously exist.
>>50208216Obviously they didn't create *all* Youkai as demons predated their ascension from mortality, but it isn't a leap of logic that they could had artificially made a few of the varieties roaming Earth now given what they did to the moon rabbits, and it makes more sense Kaguya would get that idea to begin with if it was something they were actively doing.
>>50208216>Being devoted to someone isn't the same as worshipping themThe clause for idolatry is basically there to say that devoting your life to anything to the same degree as God that isn't actually God is cringe and unhealthy, and can arguably cover all cases of paganism on its own as they fall under the umbrella of "fallible, imperfect things." Only Literal Perfection is worthy of unconditional devotion.
>>50208170Aya has a conspiracy theory that gensokyo is kinda like Noah's ark and getting mad at Seiga for dressing up like Santa Claus and breaking into people's houses to steal things and people mistaking her for the tengu god sarutahiko
>>50208236>as demons predated their ascension from mortality,The Lunarians are all gods, the only possibly non-god Lunarian we know of is Kaguya and in TH20 they're referenced as "the gods that arrived from Takamagahara" in Yuiman's profile. Even before this people theorisied that like in japanese mythology, the heavenly gods originated in Takamagahara. The Lunarians were heavenly gods from Takamagahara, who then left earth and went to the moon.>given what they did to the moon rabbits,Enslave them? I agree that they probably created some youkai, but how does enslaving the moon rabbits factor into that? >>50208256It's not a half-bad theory, albeit for reasons Aya doesn't know. In the future Maribel is a nihilist while Renko is a person who searches for immortality. Considering Maribel is the one in love with Gensokyo I don't think its a stretch to say that Maribel is a person who doesn't have faith in the outside world and would try to use Gensokyo as a Noah's ark, while Renko would instead stay in her time and try to make a new, better, future for the outside world,
>>50208245Seriously, man, there are more meanings to words aside from religious ones
>>50208262The Moon Rabbits used to be physically just rabbits before the Moonies altered them into rabbit girls. In fact, the majority of them probably still are, and they only get a human shape when it's needed as part of their task.
>>50208271Lunarian men have desires and bunny girls are created to help with their more lustful needs
>>50208263Ask yourself this: is there anything in the world that would make Sakuya defy Remilia, short of being ordered by her specifically?If not, Sakuya idolizes Remilia beyond the realms of logic and rationality, falling into religious, or at least philosophical levels of reverence.
>>50208262>The Lunarians are all godsWeren't them a type of celestials, and viceversa? And yes, there are lunarian gods in the sense they live there and are affiliated to them>>50208236Why would Kaguya have to theorize about her people doing this or that? Shouldn't she, as a high ranking lunarian, absolutely know it?
>>50208282Well Celestials come from Bhavaagra, which is in heaven. Takamagahara is also (probably) in heaven. So while you could say they're both heavenly gods, they aren't the same type of heavenly god. Celestials are people who have reached Bhavaagra.The exact make up of heaven isn't known, but it probably somewhat follows the notion of the Buddhist three realms. The realm of desire (Mortal realm), realm of forms (probably the place in heaven where Bhavaagra is as its inhabitants don't have wordly desires but do have forms), and the formless realm where there is no physical matter.Although I'm not sure if Takamagahara would be in the realm of forms or formlessness. Either way the gods we today know as the Lunarians probably had to give up their heavenly-ness(?) in order to descend down to earth in the first place.
>>50208279I don't see how do you have the need to bring this topic. Are you implying that Sakuya is not, by religious definitions, and atheist, and instead she's worshipping Remilia, just by doing her job? She doesn't have a shrine dedicated to her or anything, she's just exceptionally good at her job (ignoring that time she almost got her mistress and herself sucked into outer space when they were in that rocket ship)
>>50208219I go with the more charitable idea that the Church was one of the few religious institutions that genuinely had its followers' best interests at heart, but still collapsed under its own sin because to actually deal with the countless scandals and corruptions it had incurred would result in nothing less but widespread international conflict, and that it lets unsavory individuals ruin the lives of untold innocents on a daily basis to keep the peace makes a funny parallel to Gensokyo's system.
>>50208293Oka but I mean there's a difference between those two and those who are plainly called gods, right?
>>50208302There's all sorts of gods, but they're all gods, in a sense. What is and isn't a god can be messy in touhou. But the Lunarians we have seen are all (except for Kaguya) called gods.Heck Tewi qualifies as a god due to having her own shrine in the outside world.
Actually thinking about it, Sariel existing at least implies that Judeo-Christian angels exist in the Touhou universe. If you really wanted to make Christianity work in that context, you could say these angels are akin to the Shinto gods we see in Touhou, and then just keep it ambiguous as to if they actually follow some all powerful true God or if it's just a sham they perpetuate to consolidate spiritual power.That's the only way I could see Christianity working in Touhou without just entirely misrepresenting Christianity like TLC did.
>>50208315Maybe it's just a semantic thing, them looking like gods to us? After all, excluding the moon gods that left Earth, all lunarians are/descend from humans who went to the moon>>50208323Don't think too much about it. Christianity, and therefore, abrahamanism at large, are real and canon to Touhou, just with important things to consider, things that would get you in a pile of burning wood back in the day, like Yahweh being just another god no different than others
>>50208342>like Yahweh being just another god no different than othersThat itself would mean that Christianity isn't true in the Touhou universe. You can't really fold the Christian belief system into such a belief structure like Shinto and expect it to hold up, especially when a core tenant of it is "our God created everything and your god is a false god." Like I said, if you wanted to preserve Christianity as much as possible in the context of Touhou without going straight for the "Christians are wrong" angle, you'd have to keep it ambiguous.
>>50208342That depends on your definition of God; is Yahweh perfect because he is God, or is God perfect because He is Yahweh? It could be that the Buddhist*/Gnostic position is the canon one to Tohuou, that there exists an Omnipotent, Omnienevolent being, but He was not involved in creation, which would make the Christians mistaken, yet not entirely incorrect.What is certain is that there are seemingly arbitrary mechanics in like Kagare that not even the Lunarians fully understand, implying the existence of something beyond their weight class sculpting the universe.*Depending on the sect.
I figure that they aren't all that important in Gensokyo given how Christianity is the most followed religion in the world and the whole point of Gensokyo is to accept the forgotten and discarded
Celestials are Taoists and come from the jade emperor's court an administrator overseeing a celestial bureaucracy.The jade emperor is also the one who created the elixir of immortality and gave it to Houyi, but his wife, Chang'e drank it instead.
>>50208367>given how Christianity is the most followed religion in the worldIronically, given Christianity's history in Japan, a Japanese martyr showing up in Gensokyo would make perfect sense.
>>50208236i wouldn't trust kaguya, or any lunarian for that matter. we know, thanks to patchouli, that magic is a science native to the (multi?)universe of the setting, and the princess declared at one point that the moonies were the ones that created it. what its likely is that kaguya was so isolated prior gensokyo, that she believed that everything must have come from lunar capital in one way or the anotherit would be really funny if a magician who saw the lunarians leaving earth, and survived the celestials nuking it, to furiously refute that claim
>>50208357A misunderstanding of Judaeo-Christian philosophy. A closer translation to their anal-retentiveness over idolatry and worship is that only a being that fits the Platonic Ideal of perfection is worthy of the level of subordination implied by religious worship. If your god is fallible, then giving them unlimited subordination will eventually result in catastrophic failure, even if that failure takes eons to manifest, because they by definition cannot prepare for all eventualities like an omnipotent being can.Which was at odds with how religion generally worked in Rome where Christianity gained the most traction during its early years; for all those people who actively idolized them, just as many prayed to the Olympians not necessarily out of real devotion, but so nothing bad would befall them by mistake or indifference. The Christian perspective takes these things really, really seriously, and it's best to think of it as a path to enlightenment only enlightenment happens to be a thinking being that loves you.
>>50208381>thanks to patchouli, that magic is a science native to the (multi?)universe of the setting, and the princess declared at one point that the moonies were the ones that created it.Those aren't mutually exclusive statements. Magic always existed, but the "modern" concept and practice of magic started with the Lunarians.
>>50208372The thing is that in Japan Christianity is not in the realm of the forgotten.Amakusa Shirō is very well known and even feared.
>>50208395I'm not necessarily speaking about Amakusa Shiro, in the purging of Christians from the Japanese islands a great deal many practitioners were executed for their beliefs (making them martyrs) and were subsequently lost to history. And while Christianity isn't completely gone from Japan, it's far less prominent than other religions which also have a foothold in Gensokyo.
>>50208357Ok, fair enough. Just want to add that it wasn't until neoplatonism fused with christianity that the Idea of Good (The One) and Yahweh became the same thing, so traditionally Yahweh was really another god, this even seen in the Bible>>50208358>That depends on your definition of God; is Yahweh perfect because he is God, or is God perfect because He is Yahweh?I don't know>What is certain is that there are seemingly arbitrary mechanics in like Kagare that not even the Lunarians fully understand, implying the existence of something beyond their weight class sculpting the universe.But that follows a god of the gaps argument
>>50208402Considering how many Christians Japan has had for prime ministers despite the number of them in Japan. I'd still say it isn't in the realm of the forgotten. Oda Nobunago and Date Masamune though not a Christians were known to seek their advice and knowledge. both were very favorable to Christianity with Masaume even sending out a Christian Japanese envoy to the Vatican.
>>50208423Cool, I guess you're right Christianity is the biggest religion in Japan, no wonder it's out here and Buddshits and Shitno are stuck in Gensokyo.
>>50208402God remembers them.
(((Judeo-Christian)))
>>50208438Imagine the sex with this fumo.
>>50208395Funnily enough, Christianity in Japan is steadily rising albeit not at a really fast rate. Shame it has to be a part of a globohomo plot to flood them with jeets
>>50208428never said it was the biggest religion in Japan. just pointing out that it is far from being forgotten. as for the buddhism the buddhism presented in gensokyo is from an esoteric branch called shingon that used to the the biggest branch in Japan. as for Shinto it only makes sense that Shinto would be in the place of its origin. It should be noted even Reimu uses taoist ying-yang orbs even though taoism isn't very big in japan. It is very strange how much taoism influenced japan Most Japanese magic rituals are based off Taoism like onmyōdō, shigandang, shugendō, even the widely practiced ritual of setsubun (節分) where chanters repeat "Demons out! Luck in!" has its base in taoism.Taoist fulu charms became ofuda in Shinto.zun admits he doesn't know much about Taoism or Christianity.
>>50208294>Are you implying that Sakuya is not, by religious definitions, and atheistNTA but he is into something, atheism in his purest form is impossible in any sentient being, it just get transferred to anything not-god or superstitions
>>50208393the human precursors of the lunarians had to know their fair share of magic to reach the moon, become immortal, and more, not to mention the open supernatural stuff that must have existed in earth alongside them, which clearly implies that there was already a disciplinary practise of magic. so no, lunarians starting its practise is either propaganda, or they discovered a specific type of use of magic, unshareable by their law with non lunarians, that they consider absolute and call any other outside it undeserving of mention among them
>>50208467Ok, but does Sakuya worship the likes of Amaterasu, Zeus, or Yahweh? No? Then she's godless, an atheist by definition
>>50208472it makes more sense when you realize that the lunarians are just a type of xian from taoism
>>50208467It is possible, it just requires a harder-line stance than most people who call themselves Atheists are willing to commit to. For instance, most Atheists believe Ramses II and Caesar existed, even though they were considered gods pre- and post- mortem in their time. Atheism as we know it is usually used as a shorthand as a disbelief in the supernatural, which definitely does not describe Sakuya.
>>50208482that helps my statement in that there was already an understanding of magic long before they reached the moon. after all, hermits and magicians only differ in their methods to practise magic
>>50208480Bad definition then...the Ussr also was by doctrine materialistic atheist, but still make the state take religious and dogmatic characteristics.the funny thing is that even the elite pushers for atheism, dont even believe themselves, they usually are Crowleans or transhumanistic technocrats. it makes you think that the faithless of Maribel and renko time could be engineered
>>50208504>but still make the state take religious and dogmatic characteristics.The very same regime that christians at the vatican critized for being atheistic? Nobody worships the state, nobody expects the state to perform a miracle for them. As far as definitions go, Sakuya isn't following any religion centered around any god, so she's atheistic. Come on, it's just semantics at this points, we are discussing for the sake of it at this point?
>>50208529>Nobody worships the state, nobody expects the state to perform a miracle for themguess you haven't heard of communism or legalism(Chinese philosophy) then.
>>50208294>She doesn't have a shrine dedicated to her or anythingSakuya is stated to hunt people on her own volition in order to serve Remilia meals made to look like innocuous pastries every day. A daily ritual, if you will.
>>50208279>>50208294In spite of the fandom liking to portray Sakuya as a sycophant to the Scarlets, I think we don't know enough about Sakuya's headspace to determine if she's devoted to Remilia to a level of idolatry, a good friend of hers' that would still act rationally if ordered to do something stupid like kill herself, or just really professional about being a maid, which is in itself would be a philosophy akin to Taoism, yet not strictly-speaking religious.Sakuya still fails the atheism benchmark because she believes in the existence of Sanae.
>>50208544>hunt people*cooking people, FTFY. I seriously hope at least sakuya wasn't a vampire hunter, that level of treachery against a holy office and humanity should land her at the electric chair.
>>50208536Not religions, you smartass>>50208544Somebody working a 9-5 means they are performing a ritual to their god, the CEO of the company. Totally theistic.>>50208559Valid and reasonable response
>>50208573It was with State Shinto and other forms of statolatry such as in North Korea
>>50208472>the human precursors of the lunarians had to know their fair share of magic to reach the moonThey were divinity of some rank, seemingly similar to a being like Yuiman (a god human). There seems to be a very specific distinction between magic and divine powers in Touhou, at the very least characters like Kanako seem to treat the two as such.Not everything supernatural is of the type of magic that characters such as Marisa or Patchouli practice.
>>50208544>Sakuya is stated to hunt peopleI'm going to need a source on that statement.
>>50208595>They were divinity of some ranknowhere its that stated. all entries say that the antecessors of lunarians were humans>There seems to be a very specific distinction between magic and divine powers in Touhou, at the very least characters like Kanako seem to treat the two as such.right, but would you separate the magic that hermits and magicians use? thats the thing here, kaguya said explictly that lunarians invented magic, and this is not true, they already had some big notion of magic before leaving earth. if there were hermits before lunarians were born, then there were also magicians who studied magic using their own ways for it
>>50208627>nowhere its that stated.>Even though Princess Yuiman had the same rank of divinity as the People of the Moon, after the gods built their capital city on the moon, they continued to bind her to the Earth and make her labor for the People of the Moon.This wording would imply that they were of the same rank of divinity as Yuiman before they created the moon capital.
>>50208634they were the same as yuiman when they were already established there
>>50208559I think it was in SSiB but when Remilia tells her to get her too the moon, Sakuya says no, explaining that it falls outside of her duty as a maid.Although other times like in the cross reviews her devotion can be tinged with a bit of motherlyness. I.E hating Seija since she thinks she'll be a bad influence on the sisters.I can't find but the panel right now but it was probably pretty early on in the comic. Or maybe in conflating it with a Sakuya moment in another manga, who knows...
>>50208634>>50208644ok, sorry, i forgot that lunarians are also considered gods, you are right. still my point stands that lunarians didn't create magic
>>50208688You have no point, just pure speculation.Touhou lore discussion on this site is such fucking shit, everybody just throws out their head canon like it's fact, nobody ever bothers backing anything up.
>>50202874>touhou lore thread>it's all headcanon anyway lol
https://en.touhougarakuta.com/article/specialtaidan_zun_hiroyuki_6-en
>>50210265trvth nvke
>>50202881he married Human!Reisen after that FS chapter
>>50208691Sorry to butt in, but that other anon's speculation might not be too far off target. According to what little bits of lore we know, which are most of the time pure speculation on the characters part, like PMISS, there was fully observable, and understandable magic 'pre-lunarian' times. Lunarians are explicitly close related to hermits, being xians like an anon mentioned before, so they had to already know (hermit) magic before moving into the Moon. I think that's the magic Kaguya's mentioning, the one used by the hermits, and not the ones used by the likes of Patchouli. We can deduce that this magic that lunarians originated was the one that the hermits-that-would-be-lunarians, practised before moving to the Moon. Kaguya would be correct in that sense.
>>50210958What's the different between Celestials and Lunarians?
I just checked the line in question, in both English and Japanese. Kaguya specifically says that magic is the moon's power, not necessarily the lunar people's power (though by transitive property, if you believe the moon belongs to the lunar people then that would technically be their "power"). Given that the connection between magic and the moon is made several other places in Touhou, that's not an unreasonable statement.
>>50210999The Lunarians are from Takamagahara, the Celestials from Bhavaagra.>>50208271Tewi and the earth rabbits in IN can also take on human forms, so I don't think it's anything special. Sure we don't have proof of lunar rabbits being able to transform into humanoid forms before the Lunarians took over the moon, but I think it's a bit of a leap in logic to assume the Lunarians gave them that abillity.Especially when the earth rabbits, who are genetically descended from the moon rabbits can do the same as long as their youkai.
>>50211069But the Moon is not the same as Takamagahara right? I feel like it is more connected to the Dragon Palace instead.
>>50211069Tewi and the earth rabbits can do it due to being beast youkai who managed to survive a century as rabbits, while the Moon rabbits are stated to not be youkai in the strictest sense in spite of their supernatural abilities. The most obvious explanation is that the Lunarians taught and/or used magic on them, unless they somehow figured out how to do that stuff on themselves.
>>50210999This is how I viewnit. If you check the Xian article in wikipedia, you can take some interesting information about how they get to become what they are. It includes mysticism and ascetism, but also alchemy as well. You can say that they are using their own science to help themselves reach their status, right?Meanwhile, celestials are more related to buddhism. They either reach their status through reaching nirvana, or, in the Hinanawi clan's case, getting invited to Heaven. Their ascension is more based on feats of faith and virtue.In general terms, a xian (lunarian) could have not been virtuous and yet reach ascension (the tao can be used for bad purposes, this exemplied with Seiga), while celestials have to try to be as good as possible. That's how I see it>>50211064Good catch, thank you.
According to Komachi Onozuka, celestials are not truly immortal. Instead, they continually extend their lifespans by defeating the shinigami that regularly come for them.Tenshi, who was made to leave Heaven when she consumed the elixir that was prepared for a banquet (an elixir that she mistook for bad-tasting dumplings), so it seems that a celestial can be banished from Heaven if there is reason to do so.
In Taoism and Chinese mythology, a tianxian is a "Heavenly Immortal" or "Celestial Immortal". It is the highest of the five classes of immortals, superior to human, spirit, earthly, and ghost immortals.Tian (Heaven)Xian (Immortal)Tianzun (Celestial Worthies) this is considered the highest form in taoism
>>50208357>Christianity isn't true in the Touhou universenone of the religions that appear in touhou are accurate to the real world beliefs, because we know how the world of touhou works and while it takes from the cosmology of several different religions, it's not 100% accurate to any of those.
>>50211091Well the Lunarians did leave earth for the moon, so it would be.>Heavenly gods descend to earth from Takamagahara>They leave earth for the moon, no longer welcome in Takamagahara and become the Lunarians.During the second part is probably when they recruited others like Sagume who have split heavenly/earthly lineage and thus weren't born in Takamagahara. Maybe they also recruit humans around this time, they also probably seal Daikoku and Ariya around this time as well, or possibly earlier when they descended.
>>50211069Celestials are also from Earth. They made Heaven by pulling out a giant keystone, wiping out all life on Earth at the time in the process.This all happened before even Eirin was born, making the Celestials the oldest known extant civilization within Touhou.The Lunar Capital was established because Tsukuyomi freaked out when he realized that the impurity on Earth would cause him to decay and eventually die, so he took his closest relatives with him to the Moon, where they built a new home to avoid kegare, though it does not appear they're fully capable of avoiding it entirely, so trace elements still appear, and they actively design systems to counteract it, such as recruiting Ariya (failure), using Kaguya (failure), the facility within Mount Asama Joue (eventual failure because we shitposted it into oblivion), and possibly Chang'e (crazy bitch).So we can probably assume that within Touhou, Takamagahara was still bound to Earth, rather than being a pure heavenly realm, unless you want to argue that Tsukuyomi and cohorts were kicked out of Heaven, which does not appear to fear kegare like the Lunarians do, and do not feel the need to isolate themselves.But ultimately, everything about the Lunar Capital is just a hodgepodge of elements ZUN threw together without putting much thought into it after he decided he wanted to have Kaguyahime but also tie it into Japanese mythology, particularly focusing on Omoikane, so I don't think it's ever going to truly make sense. It might well be that some Japanese gods thought they were too good for Earth, so they stole some peaches and tried to make their own Heaven on the moon, with blackjack, and rabbit hookers.
Zun says the moon represents China while hell represents America
>>50212695I think that's fitting a round peg into a square hole, Takamagahara being on earth is weird. Touhou even moves the dragon palace from the bottom of the sea to the moon to account for mythos, besides if not heaven, where would the heavenly gods descend from? What would even make them heavenly in contrast to the earthly gods if they're also from earth?I think the gods from Takamagahara weren't allowed back to heaven due to how they had become tainted by impurity and thus they took over the moon and made the lunar capital. Even if impurity isn't a threat to the celestials, they still turn their nose up at the impure.
>>50205695the truth is the yokai themselves wouldn't allow an attack on the human village.humans are necessary to their continued existence.
>>50212743It's not that strange when one considers the Lunarians' tendency to lie through their teeth; being from another world sounds more impressive than being right down the street from Shangri-La and Prester John's, and their own description of their journey would be a major account of poetic license to elevate something that was likely far more mundane and far less sophisticated in practice.
>>50212743>Touhou even moves the dragon palace from the bottom of the sea to the moon to account for mythosOnly within the context of Urashima Taro, in which it wasn't even that there was a Dragon Palace on the moon, so much as Toyohime just making up the excuse that the Lunar Capital *was* the mystical Dragon Palace to draw attention away from the existence of people on the moon, since they're determined to remain hidden.But there's also a strong implication that there is a *real* Dragon Palace, which is far more connected to Heaven and the Celestials, which sends messengers to Earth to warn them of earthquakes and the like.>I think the gods from Takamagahara weren't allowed back to heaven due to how they had become tainted by impurity and thus they took over the moon and made the lunar capital. Even if impurity isn't a threat to the celestials, they still turn their nose up at the impure.We know very little about Heaven, but from what we do know, they don't really care.There are low-ranking celestial maidens (not to be confused with proper Celestials) who go to Earth to get married and return when they get bored, and while it's considered gauche, there is no hint that there is any consequence for them other than having to write an apology if they lose their veil.They also keep a modicum of contact with the surface people, unlike Lunarians, as we see with the elixir Tenshi ate, which was intended for hermits they invited, as well as there being stories of Celestials going down to Earth just to say something cryptic and leave.If they can accept that, then a group of them leaving for a little should be easily accepted back in, especially since they carry minimal amounts of kegare.>besides if not heaven, where would the heavenly gods descend from?I dunno, some mountain? A flying castle that doesn't go high enough to truly avoid Earth? As long as they "descended" from somewhere, their claims would technically be correct.>What would even make them heavenly in contrast to the earthly gods if they're also from earth?Pure narcissism. They're not actually that special other than thinking themselves to be.Remember that in the latest game, we learned that Yuiman held the same divine rank as those who were fleeing to the moon, but Yuimankoku existed on the border of the afterlife, which is as far from "heavenly" as it gets, so it's hardly some divine mandate that elevates them above others.The Lunarians are just massive scam artists, by all accounts, only good for sex appeal.
>>50210265>Can't sympathize with any characters>Can't write a likable character to save his lifeSuddenly everything makes sense.
>>50208170>Christianity isn't canon to Touhou.It doesn't have to be for Satan to exist. Jesus is all but said to exist. Also Shiki was a thing.
>>50205695They don't. They would all be butchered if the Youkai wanted them gone. The moment the humans have outlived their usefulness that little town is going to be wiped off the map and everybody knows it.
>>50213921Kasen explicitly says Jesus existed in WaHH, she just thought he was a saint. Whether she's right or not is a different matter.
>>50213930Most likely she is right but Jesus was still a good person and a demi god. Which puts her above every single figure in Gensokyo.
Honestly, Human Village would be a awful society to actually live in when you apply basic logic. Basically anarcho capitalist hellhole where rich merchants can murder and rape people for kicks. However, the fact that most villagers seem like very chill and relaxed people generally leads me to assume that most major village figures are good, if eccentric, people. More Scrooge Mc Duck than john rockefeller.
>>50213948But 2hus are real so life must not be so bad
>>50213923Weren't youkai able to live on without relying on human faith? They basically turn in their own form of hermits for that
>>50214351yes but they require prodigious amounts of human semen
>>50213335>>50213893The Lunarians being from Takamagahara is in Yuiman's omake text, not from the Lunarians. >Long ago, she was the princess of a land called Yuimankoku.>Yuimankoku stood on the edge of the world of the gods, next door to the world of death, and was populated by Shinjin (God-humans).>She lived a pastoral lifestyle, enjoying deer-hunting amidst nature, but the gods that arrived from Takamagahara twisted her into a lowly, base being.>Even though Princess Yuiman had the same rank of divinity as the People of the Moon, after the gods built their capital city on the moon, they continued to bind her to the Earth and make her labor for the People of the Moon.They're also called gods by ZUN, and in fragment of phantasy (non-canon but it discusses mythology in relation to Touhou and is approved by ZUN) when it talks about the heavenly gods and Takamagahara it talks about them in contrast to earth and yomi (Hell or old Hell in this context). It isn't earth and in LoLK Suwako implies that the difference between heavenly and earthly is in their being, the ultramarine orb elixir as something that prufies is fatal to her as a native god. Although the exact overlap of earthly and native gods isn't known, I think that fact she has to specify means that other types of gods, including heavenly gods, would not be killed by it.I don't think Yuimankoku or Yuiman being once equal in status to the Lunarians is in contrast to them either, it sounds like a special place and Yuiman is a Shinjin as well. Shinjin itself has a variety of menaings, from a type of taoist immortal, to a person bound to a shrine in service to a god. In either case I don't think Yuiman being on status with the Lunarians is meant to make them look unimpressive, but make Yuiman look impressive. The netherworld is a pure realm, and the ministry of right and wrong holds authority over the celestials, sending Shinigami and Kishin after them.Also, the heavenly gods descending to earth in japanese myth is them invading japan and taking it over. We also know that heaven doesn't like to allow new people in, if the gods from Yuimankoku lost their immortallity and were no longer seen as heavenly by the celestials I don't think they would be allowed back in.There is also the fact that celestial may be a less precise term in japanese, it just means heaven person, sky person, or deva. Even if all the celestials we have met so far are from Bhavaagra, that doesn't mean all of them are.
>>50213948Good thing you can't apply logic to Gensokyo.
>>50214721...So they are all evil sadists and human villagers just used to the abuse?
>>50214721That's just a cop-out from ZUN and you know it. Just like items from the Outside World ending up in Gensokyo, to avoid addressing anachronisms.
>>50213948>basic logic>where rich merchants can murder and rape people for kicksI'd love to read about that basic logic, because when I apply mine, I see a place where it would be unwise in the extreme to turn against a populace that can lynch you at any time, and there's no political establishment to cover your arse. And that's not even touching on the literal supernatural powers in whose best interest it is to keep the town friendly and placid, which you would be disturbing.
>>50213936Wild card: Jesus is an aspect of the Jade Emperor, who is in fact exactly the all-loving, all-powerful being the Chinese legends say He is.
>>50214823Basically: Your argument falls flat when you consider the matter of force and who actually controls society. The government bailing out rich people relies on the assumption that the government has a monopoly on force. No such monopoly exists in Gensokyo, as it' s a anarchy. Meaning that whoever can leverage the most power can dictate the law. In other words: Whoever can afford to pay the town guard effectivity is the law. No lynch mob is going to be able to stand up to that. If you think that's insane, try and remember that Gensokyo is in the same country that has a word for the act of Samurai standing in a crossroad and murdering random passerby to test out their weapon. Obviously, the Senogku Jidai is not the same kind of anarchy as Gensokyo but it is still pretty revealing.And that is of course assuming rich and powerful people in the human village engage in the most braindead "Killing a person in public for everybody to see" kind of behavior. Literally even a modicum of subtlety would be impossible to deal with. Beat some random servant to death? Just claim he was stealing from you and tried to resist when he was caught. Rape some women? Just claim she's lying. Who is going to investigate? The guard you are paying? Reimu? And that's even assuming you give a reason for why somebody just vanishes. There is a laundry list of reasons why somebody might disappear in Gensokyo. As long as the bodies are buried, everybody will just assume a Youkai did it. Any would be Gilles De Rai, Elizabeth Báthory, or Epstein would find Gensokyo and the human village to be a freaking paradise. That's not even going into the stuff that WOULD be a crime but would be normalized in a traditional society like Gensokyo. Raping your wife? Perfectly normal. Pedophilia? Just make sure the parents are paid properly. Honor killings? Literally might not have been abolished legally when Gensokyo was closed off from the outside world. >But muh youkaiI'm going to just ignore any question of morality because, lol. Youkai are people who view child abduction and murder as a lifestyle. They could not give less of a fuck about some rich fuck murdering a prostitute. The gods are no better. Do you really think Kanako would care if the zoo animals mistreat each other? As for more practical matters: They have no interest in human villagers being friendly. Placid and compliant, sure. But that is hardly mutually exclusive with rich and powerful people doing as they please. If anything, it's good for the human villagers to be under the booth of people above them. Especially when you consider the rather obvious question of "Who are the merchants trading with?" I mean, we know they have ice cream? Where did they get that from? Where does the salt merchant get his salt from? A salt mine? Who runs that salt mine? Who do farmers sell their surplus food to? Most likely the answer to all of those questions is "Youkai". By default anybody willing to interact with Youkai to the extent that they are able to open up trade relations is going to be generally unscrupulous and immoral. So, while that gives the Youkai a great degree of control over the elite of the human village, it also means they are largely being selected for their amorality. Anybody that is genuinly a good person just straight up wouldn't trade with Youkai. More than that, it means the Youkai have a active interest in maintaining a rich elite capable of basically doing as they please and holding power over their lesser both ecenomically and as a means of extorting control over the human village. At best they would probably demand some level of basic decency on the level of "Try to at least appear civil", but it can just as easily turn into "Limit the amount of people you murder to like one every year" or even "Do your crossroad killings at night so the Youkai can clean up the bodies". As for anything else to hold them accountable, there basically isn't any: The people of Gensokyo are largely uncaring about religion and magic, and neither Byakuren or Miko is going to be able to set some kind of societal standard of morality. Confucianism is mostly limited to one Oni and presumably Keine. Youkai exterminators either don't exist or are such a non factor they might as well not exist. And Reimu doesn't give a fuck, as long as they don't turn into Youkai she's okay with anything.
>>50216100Yo Nork, new CDS chapter is out, want to join us in >>50200612?
>>50216100So, by applying basic logic, what we are looking at is a society where people with force are effectively totally and utterly unchecked in their application of that force. Where maintaining the pretense of civility is easy enough that covering up and justifying random acts of cruelty is both easy if not borderline accepted. Where nepotism, patronage, and cronyism isn't embedded into the system as much as it just is the system. Where the only group capable of holding anybody accountable not only rewards people for bad behavior but have zero morale believes. All of this in the context of a old fashioned society with values that would be viewed as abhorrent even in modern Japan. At best we are looking at a place where the worst Epstein Island/Bohemian Grove theories happen in the mansion of every rich person looking to spice up their life. At worst we are looking at a society where bumping into a rich person is liable to end with you being decapitated and sexual abuse of women is formalized to the point of their compliance deciding their ability to function in society. Again, I don't actually think ZUN meant for that to be the case. The human villagers are written as generally saint like enough that I can actually buy most of the rich being closer to weird eccentrics and idealized nobles than Game of Thrones villains. I'm just pointing out that, logically, that relies on a lot of filling in the gaps.
>>50216100If a women was raped or in a bad marriage I imagine she could go the the myouren temple. Buddhist temples did handle divorce courts and things like that, there are also the scarely mentioned villager elder(s) who might handle such a situation.Reimu or someone else might intervene on moral grounds, but like the above I think that depends on how you views the characters and what actions you think they would take. There's also a chance of self interested youkai like Wriggle or Mamizou trying to help out in order to advance the cause of the insects or tanuki.
>>50216100>s going to be generally unscrupulous and immoraI forgot to mention, but Kappa and Tengu sell their shit to the viallgers in paper thing disguises and Sekibanki works in the village.As long as it's nothing criminal or you aren't buying goods smuggled from the outside world, I don't think people would care.
>>50216100There is no evidence of a centralised policing force in the Human Village.The powers-that-be are generally opposed to organised leadership in the Village, as seen in the Symposium.Furthermore, humans being preoccupied with one another means lessened attention for the gods/youkai. This is a no-no and wouldn't fly.There was no question of morality; youkai have a vested self-interest in the Village remaining undistracted by internal conflict. Morals do not play into it.I don't care about American celebrities.
>>50216122>Buddhist temples did handle divorce courtThey handled them because they had the legal authority to handle them. To whatever extent such a authority exists in Gensokyo it would mostly be depended on the local elite's agreement.>there are also the scarely mentioned villager elder(s) who might handle such a situation.It's questionable if they still exist. Either way, their power would be largely dependent on it simply being a bad look to just dismiss them altogether. They can't actually do anything meanigful. >Reimu or someone else might intervene on moral grounds, but like the above I think that depends on how you views the characters and what actions you think they would take. Reimu is fundamentally too stupid to actually handle such a situation. Could you really see her getting involved with a women getting raped or a servant getting murdered and assume she would be able to properly deduce the truth? Even assuming she has the morale backbone to care, and I don't think she would, she's not a detective and while her intuition is strong It's not actual evidence. >like Wriggle or Mamizou trying to help out in order to advance the cause of the insects or tanuki.Wriggle is in the same boat as Reimu. Even if she has the reasons to go through with it, she lacks the intelligence to actually help. Mamizou meanwhile is largely immoral. To whatever extent she would be able to deduce the truth she would be more liable to use it to blackmail somebody. Even then, she largely lacks the ability to actually evict people.
>>50216135ContI also forgot about Mystia and Kyouko's band, which has human and Youkai fans. Although Reimu and Aya don't like it since they hate rock music.
>>50216166Oh, it is you Nork. Happy to see you again, but I generally agree with what >>50216139 has to say.A human village with a lot of problems as you describe wouldn't be beneficial to the Youkai. Also Byakuren could just decide to handle divorce settlements, there's nobody to say no to her and it would be part of her duty as a buddhist priest.Also while Mamizou is self interested, her balckmailing the abusive spouse to let go of his wife, and blackmailing him to help her business in the human village is a solution to the problem.Besides I think the thing that that Youkai want to a void is a total, singular leader of the human village. Like a king, chieftain, or dictator. At least those are the vibes I get.
>>50216135>but Kappa and Tengu sell their shit to the viallgers in paper thing disguises The paper thin disguises argument is pretty weak. Either way, it probably wasn't that way in the past when most of the major merchant families probably started.>>50216139>There is no evidence of a centralised policing force in the Human VillageThat's my point. To whatever extent there would be any kind of town guard it's basically just personal thugs for whoever can afford it. The law being dictated entity by what they view acceptable. A lynch mob isn't going to do shit against a gang of people armed with actual guns, spears, or swords. >The powers-that-be are generally opposed to organised leadership in the Village, as seen in the Symposium.Which is why they would benefit from a system of rich people just doing as they please and facing no consequences for it.>Furthermore, humans being preoccupied with one another means lessened attention for the gods/youkai.All the more reason for them to not care. Bad people being able to do bad things without consequences being normalized only benefits them. >youkai have a vested self-interest in the Village remaining undistracted by internal conflict.And the easiest way to accomplish that is to simply ensure one class of people dominates to such a extent there is no opposition.
>>50216191>All the more reason for them to not care.Do you even know how gods and youkai stay alive?
>>50216100>>50216113>>50216139For what it's worth, Reimu made an attempt at a system of law with spellcards that presumably even the village has to follow, even if the reason behind it was ultimately enlightened self-interest.
>>50216191The Youkai kind of need to monopolize control over the village in a web of influence, and do so in a way where they work with the humans and consider working with them beneficial.I think the situation has room for both corruption and virtue.Also I thought, if wriggle or another dumb but self Interested Youkai gets involved, doesn't that mean Marisa or one of the shrines has to step on to resolve the situation now. I think that'd be a pretty interesting plot for a fan/doujin work.Also it's more out there, but Tewi or a private divorce agency may also handle some cases. Tewi is rather mercantile, a member of a non-man eating Youkai clan, assets some political power over the human village, and is enshrined as a god of love in the outside world. So maybe she might try something in a divorce case.
>>50216189>A human village with a lot of problems as you describe wouldn't be beneficial to the YoukaiWhat you describe as "problems" would just be normalized. Most of human society for all of history had nobles leverage effectively unlimited power against the population without any checks. > Also Byakuren could just decide to handle divorce settlements,Which wouldn't be acknowledged by everybody. Meaning the women would remain legally married. Because, again, the legality of something is dependent on the force exerted in it's maintenance. Marriage is not a spiritual act. It's a legal status whose worth it therefore determined by the law of a country. A place like Gensokyo, without any kind of top down system of law, means that any actual acceptance of that legal statues would be entirely dependent on the people powerful enough to enforce it in a legal means.To put it simply: If you have a wife, and somebody rapes that wife, you are legally obligated to financial compensation (If not straight up a honor killings) because your wife is viewed as your property and what that other person did is in opposition of your right to ownership. However, right to ownership is only enforceable to the degree in which force can be exerted. >Also while Mamizou is self interested, her balckmailing the abusive spouse to let go of his wife, and blackmailing him to help her business in the human village is a solution to the problem.It would be more profitable for her to allow the abuse to continue. >Besides I think the thing that that Youkai want to a void is a total, singular leader of the human village. Like a king, chieftain, or dictatorYou do not need to be a singular leader to be capable of exerting power. If you can pay 10 people, give them swords, and send them to do your bidding then the only other person who can practically stop you is somebody else who can afford to pay 10 people and give them swords or somebody able to leverage people in opposition against you through other means. The former would be another rich person, the latter doesn't exist in the human village.
>>50216100>>50216191>hurr durr My dude, one of the very few stated unspoken laws in Gensokyo is that you DON'T KILL THE VILLAGERS. Have you even read FS? Your whole headcanon is predicated on ignorance.
>>50216200Yes, through fear and faith.A rich person being able to murder or kill as they please not only doesn't really affect that, it downright encourages faith. >>50216217>The Youkai kind of need to monopolize control over the village in a web of influence, and do so in a way where they work with the humans and consider working with them beneficial.Exactly. This means the people willing to work with them are the type of people that have no problem helping Youkai achieve controls over others.>I think the situation has room for both corruption and virtue.As a system it's entirely based around nepotism. Virtue is only possible on a purely personal basis. Aka: I choose not to do something bad. It is however neither encouraged nor entirely wanted by the Youkai. >Tewi is rather mercantile, a member of a non-man eating Youkai clan, assets some political power over the human village, and is enshrined as a god of love in the outside world. So maybe she might try something in a divorce case.See: >>50216247Do you really think Tewi is going to get involved in somebody raping somebodies else wife? What leverage does she have?
>>50216256>Your whole headcanon is predicated on ignorance.That much has been obvious since he started this never-ending debate.
>>50216256>My dude, one of the very few stated unspoken laws in Gensokyo is that you DON'T KILL THE VILLAGERSYoukai do not kill villagers. There is no indication that such a law exists for humans. And if it does, who enforces it? Reimu? Not impossible, but she's also very stupid and gullible. It would also mean that literally all of human society would revolve around her as the ultimate enforcer of the law and the one person who has a effectively monopoly on force. She would essentially be a ruler in all but name, which as explained Youkai do not want.
Hey gals, am I the only one who thinks that having a murderer at large in the village is a good idea? I, for one, believe it's great that the humans are focusing on fearing one another, rather than fearing us. Moreover, I am convinced it's great that our cattle, on whose continued existence we depend with our lives, is being blithely killed off. Truly this is conducive to Gensokyo's purpose and exactly what we want. We should simply stand back and do nothing about it. Yes.
>>50216271Anon, your entire retarded argument is based on a misconception that laws for Youkai applies to humans. Followed by a total inability to actually think through the implications of what you just said. >You can't kill villagersOkay? Who is going to enforce this?>ReimuSo, she has a monopoly on force? Logically, this means your position in human society would be depended on how close you are to Reimu. Effectively a patronage system.
>>50216298I left this retarded round about argument over nothing days ago, I don't know where you are specifically and I genuinely don't care. Something about rape? Makes sense for you.
>>50216289>I, for one, believe it's great that the humans are focusing on fearing one anotherLike I said: >"Do your crossroad killings at night so the Youkai can clean up the bodies".Youkai would have zero issue with this. it's okay to murder as you please as long as the common people suspect a youkai does it.
>>50216309I largely explained how logically the human village would be essentially a anarcho capitalist state.
>>50216289>Moreover, I am convinced it's great that our cattle, on whose continued existence we depend with our lives, is being blithely killed off. Death happens. As long as it doesn't affect the overall population too much, why would they care? > We should simply stand back and do nothing about it.Yes. They would. It doesn't affect them. It isn't breaking any laws.
>>50216325>It doesn't affect them.Okay, I was typing out a serious response, but you're just being purposely obtuse now. That's no fun to go against. Good bye.
>>50216317>logicallyAgain, have you considered that Gensokyo doesn't run on conventional logic?
>>50216298Spellcard law is enforced in human to human interactions as proven by any game where two human characters actively fight each other. In fact, the bad end of SoEW goes on to demonstrate that this wasn't the case before spellcards. At best, your notions of how Gensokyo work are multiple decades out-of-date.
>>50216333How does it affect them? The human village has the population of a small city going by most of the manga. Even a Elizabeth Báthory sociopath murdering literally hundreds of people wouldn't make a dent in a population of 10000 people. Pretending it's some kind of existential threat that would make Youkai care is laughable. And that's literally assuming the absolute worst case scenario. Let's take a example like this historical murder, taken from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiri-sute_gomen>Another happening features a nobleman named Kuranosuke Toda, whose norimono was shoved by a commoner trying to cross through. Toda's bodyguard demanded an apology, but the peasant insulted them instead. The samurai then threw him to the ground, but the peasant still started a shouting match. Watching it from his litter, Toda ordered the man to be cut down Do you think any youkai in gensokyo would care? Do you? Really? How does this affect them? How is this behavior that would matter to them?
>>50216333Frankly at this point I'm convinced he's trying to pull a Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality on Touhou/Gensokyo, just in the form of a retarded debate instead of a fanfic.
Grimsokyo sisters, we have no rebuttal to this...
>>50216334See: >>50214737Human village is a human society. It follows the laws of human society. Nothing implies it doesn't function like a human society would. Assuming it's actually the tea party scene in Alice in Wonderland is a very bold claim.>>50216337>Spellcard law is enforced in human to human interactions as proven by any game where two human characters actively fight each other.Calling the games evidence is very questionable. Besides, outside Keine we see exactly zero human villagers use it. >At best, your notions of how Gensokyo work are multiple decades out-of-date.Perfect Memento came out in 2006. We are literally further away from it than it was from SoEW. Thinking it's new or relevant canon is laughable when every manga since then has gone out of it's way to contradict it.
>>50216356You are forgetting the part that humans acting like youkai instead of humans actively encroaches upon their dominion which is a major no-no as it causes them to question their station. If the youkai authorities don't challenge Jack the Ripper and let him ascend into yookdom through infamy, it causes the entire masquerade to crumble as now there is no inherent difference between weak youkai and youkai-hopefuls.
>>50216358>Frankly at this point I'm convinced he's trying to pull a Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality on Touhou/Gensokyo,Nah. If I did that it would be much easier to actually tackle the underlying science behind the way Youkai and gods function than try to get into the minutia of how the human village functions. Off topic but somebody actually made a fucking manga version of that fanfic. Was baffling to come across that, especially when the art was pretty good.
>>50216388>You are forgetting the part that humans acting like youkai instead of humans actively encroaches upon their dominion which is a major no-no No? It's not. Yeah, there are some stories of bad people turning into Youkai when they do bad things. But some random rich guy murdering some villagers for kicks isn't going to turn you into a youkai. You are more likely to become a youkai by killing youkai, and even that takes about a thousand.And that's assuming the absolute worst case scenario. A rich person murdering a peasant who bumped into him and didn't apoglize won't mean shit.
>ignores the one rich guy that was shown and was actually acknowledged to be a nice guy well except to that horse
>>50214382I would personally be very willing to help Kasen
>>50216406>IgnoresLet me read something I wrote for you:>>50216113>The human villagers are written as generally saint like enough that I can actually buy most of the rich being closer to weird eccentrics and idealized nobles than Game of Thrones villains.Like I said, the human villagers are genuinly saintly enough that I can actually buy "Most rich people are mostly on the level". Granted, another dude was using child labor and did child abuse on him. But that's pretty mild all things considered considering how much power they actually have.
>>50216398I mean if a guy can turn into a Youkai due to eating and killing a horse, I thinking killing humans would have around the same effect.Either way the Youkai and this Reimu aren't really interested in their main source of fear and faith offing itself.
>>50216423...so you know that your whole argument is bullshit? What's the point?
>>50216317Not every form of government or organization that has a decentralized structure is anarcho capitalist.
>>50216432>I mean if a guy can turn into a Youkai due to eating and killing a horseHe turned into a youkai because he ate a animal that was previous threated as a pet. It's a actual human legend. Now, granted, I don't think japan has wendigo legends but I'm assuming eating human flesh would probably turn you into a Youkai. Don't know any legends about doing murders turning you into a Youkai.>>50216433>What's the pointLet me read you literally the next sentence: >"I'm just pointing out that, logically, that relies on a lot of filling in the gaps."Basically: The human village is underwritten.
>>50216443> that has a decentralized structure is anarcho capitalist.Then what else is it? It's obviously not a theocracy. Feudalism? Nope, not either. Patronage? Eh... not impossible but the fact that the only people with power we see are merchants...
>>50216398The fact they aren't physically youkai yet, or will ever become them is secondary to the fact humans being allowed to act like youkai undermines the de-facto caste system Gensokyo operates by. If you want to know who enforces the law in Gensokyo when Reimu isn't breathing down them, the answer is Yukari and associates; a workforce of Zashiki-warashi tends to the villages' needs and provides them with a sense of luxury beyond what their station would give in the outside world, and also acts as a monitor to prevent the exact situation you're describing from festering. There doesn't need to be a large force of village guards because the second one of these cutes spots something that would displease the sages, the information pipeline will quickly reach the Yakumo crew and Ran is noted to be a regular visitor of the village and can swiftly deal with anything that falls beyond the incident solvers' purview on her own, or more likely with Chen in animal form so nobody looks too deeply into her village persona (don't you know spotting a black cat is bad luck?)Remember, the village is more or less 'in' on how Gensokyo works; the moment they deviate from the script too hard all the luxuries provided to them becomes their noose.
>>50216444>filling in the gaps>humans can freely murder each otherYeah I was 14 once
>>50216268She's Tewi, she's the leader of a Youkai clan, probably a god, and she seems to be rather wealthy.I'm sure she could figure something would if she wanted to.Although I think your assumption that everything is nepotism is rather bold. Lol, but the entire premise of the village is everybody already buys into the system.Also I think your assumption about how only unscrupulous people working and socializing with Youkai is bold, that's basically the default so anybody from any wall of like could and would do it.Heck the fairies run stands at festivals and stuff.
>>50216450Don't pretend ZUN ever thought that hard about his worldbuilding.
>>50216247What would the husband do? Refuse to consent to divorce arbitration? I guess his wife would become a permanent monk then, but if he doesn't consent to arbitration then he's still married but can't have access to his wife and now he looks bad as well since she's publicly trying to divorce him.Besides his hand could just be twisted if he's obstinate enough. Same would go for anything. Mamizou would do I think.Also I don't see how Mamizou financially benefits from allowing the abuse to continue, as long as she has proof of abuse she has proof of it and can blackmail the guy no matter what. Once his wife leaves him, or doesn't publicly divorce him but loves separately, Mamizou sill has proof of abuse.Also if the situation escalates to guards with swords fighting Youkai, then the shrines would step in to solve the issue given that the human is the one escalating to abuse his wife more, I don't think it would end in his favor.
Not really lore, more like trivia, but...Have you ever thought about how Mayumi is inspired by Maschinenmensch from Metropolis?Both are female androids who lead an uprising of lower classes.I thought that this was just a random schizo thought, but then I remembered that Mayumi's stage theme is literally called "Bīsuto metoroporisu". ZUN is not even subtle about it, but I've never heard it mentioned anywhere.They both have names starting with "Ma-" and yellow color schemes as well, though this might be a stretch.
>>50216423You don't have to be a saint to not rape or kill other people, that's called being a normal person.
>>50214682>They're also called gods by ZUNOh, they're definitely gods, that's for sure, and quite powerful, too. I don't think anyone's disputing that aspect.>and in fragment of phantasy (non-canon but it discusses mythology in relation to Touhou and is approved by ZUN) when it talks about the heavenly gods and Takamagahara it talks about them in contrast to earth and yomi (Hell or old Hell in this context).That talks about the original mythology Touhou derives from, but it's not at all useful for discussing how they are in Touhou since it diverges so heavily from the original myths, including how they're all living on the moon, all the gods left Takamagahara instead of just Ninigi and possibly a few others, Ookuninushi and Takeminakata were sealed away instead of Ookuninushi peacefully giving up his domain to the Amatsukami after watching his son get his ass beat, and including clear Kunitsukami amongst their ranks such as Tamayorihime and Toyotamahime. It's interesting and can provide context to things, but it's not really useful in arguments about Touhou itself.It also brings up the theories about those stories originating with Chinese or Koreans bringing rice cultivation techniques to Japan, which would only support the view of the future Lunarians being of a more ordinary origin than they make things out to be.>It isn't earth and in LoLK Suwako implies that the difference between heavenly and earthly is in their being, the ultramarine orb elixir as something that prufies is fatal to her as a native god. Although the exact overlap of earthly and native gods isn't known, I think that fact she has to specify means that other types of gods, including heavenly gods, would not be killed by it.Suwako, as a Native God, is very firmly established as being different from Divine Spirits like Kanako, and by all accounts the Lunarians, but there's no hard evidence that the Lunarians all that different from the Kunitsukami. We don't really have a firm grasp on what kind of gods they are for the most part, since they're usually just labeled as Lunarians, but Sagume is explicitly referred to as a Divine Spirit, so it's likely that applies to many of them, which would make their fundamental nature not too different from that of Kanako, at least.>In either case I don't think Yuiman being on status with the Lunarians is meant to make them look unimpressive, but make Yuiman look impressive.Oh, for sure, but it crucially proves that the Amatsukami's status isn't exclusive to them. It can't be argued that they're better than the earthly gods because they're the heavenly gods, when a group of others (at minimum Yuiman and presumably Ariya, but may also include the other inhabitants of Yuimankoku) are of the same rank of them, despite clearly being bound to the earth and not being from Takamagahara. The Amatsukami clearly aren't as unique as they make themselves out to be.>Also, the heavenly gods descending to earth in japanese myth is them invading japan and taking it over. We also know that heaven doesn't like to allow new people in, if the gods from Yuimankoku lost their immortallity and were no longer seen as heavenly by the celestials I don't think they would be allowed back in.Only Ninigi and a few others left Takamagahara to assume control of Ashihara no Nakatsukuni in the original myths. The others remained in the heavens. Why would Tsukuyomi have left with them instead of just remaining in the pure heavens in that case?Plus, these events would've happened long ago, long before Heaven revised its immigration policies to keep the rabble out. There's no reason to assume that if Tsukuyomi and his family came from there that they could never return when families like the Hinanawi were still accepted.I also don't see any reason to assume that the shinjin of Yuimankoku ever originated from the heavenly realms. Yuiman's profile probably would've commented on that instead of drawing a clear distinction between them and those who descended from Takamagahara. They seem to be pretty native to the land, they just held the same divine rank as the Amatsukami (whatever that really means).
>>50214682>>50217113So my main theory is that within Touhou, the Amatsukami were a "tribe" of gods who lived in a place called Takamagahara, which was presumbly high up on a mountain, but still part of Earth and affected by its impurity.Upon realizing his mortality due to this, Tsukuyomi took action and formulated a plan to escape to a place (relatively) free of impurity.In doing this, the Amatsukami descended from their mountain, which became known as the Tenson Kourin, wrested control of the land from the other gods through their superior power and technology (it's notable that the Lunarians make heavy use of technology instead of just divine powers, unlike the other gods we see in Touhou), sealed away any they saw as a threat to their power (such as Ookuninushi and Takeminakata), recruited any other gods they thought would be useful to them to join them on the moon, and forcefully bound into service any they thought they could make use of, regardless of their status, such as Yuiman, wholly unconcerned with morality because they think themselves far beyond the other gods, a mindset that would only grow stronger after they started living on the moon.They would go on to shape the myths surrounding themselves to make them look better and keep the truth about the moon a secret, which led to the myths as we know them today, similar to how Eirin used Urashimako to seed a myth about a mystical "land of Hourai" which indirectly bolstered the faith in the Lunar Capital without revealing its secrets, solidifying its existence.
