>>50236512
duh they still have to fight shinigami every century like fags to remain immortal while the lunarians are so high up in the hierarchy that they require the intervention of the goddess of hell herself to be threatened, nothing else can touch them.
not to mention that they supposedly have the best tech in the universe, and heaven has what? floating islands and peach trees? lame as fuck

POST IKU

>>50236512
I want to pound tenshi until I've spawned atleast hundreds of half-celestials

File: oppai club.png (1.14 MB, 1200x1600)

1.14 MB PNG

>>50236533
They have to fight Shinigami because they have breast envy

>>50236939
>half-celestials
Aren't celestials and hermits just superhumans who ascended through ascetic or holy means? I don't get why many people think they're nonhumans.

>>50236950
to mortals from the outside world they're all the same fantastical creatures to fuck and breed with, labels are arbitrary flavours

>>50236512
HOT DAMN

If Tenko is called the Eldest Daughter then why is she more likely to be drawn flat?

>>50236512
>They're the supreme race in Touhou
High-end gods, magicians, youkai,and hermits could fold them like paper
>>50236533
In a 1vs1, a lunarian would probably lose, but in an all out war, lunarians are just too much

>>50236533
>lunarians
Is life unending that great if you spend the whole time fretting about cooties?

>>50239447
all her younger sisters are titty monsters and her brothers are all handsome studs

File: __hinanawi_tenshi_touhou_(...).png (1.42 MB, 1186x1680)

1.42 MB PNG

>>50236533
>duh they still have to fight shinigami every century like fags to remain immortal while the lunarians are so high up in the hierarchy that they require the intervention of the goddess of hell herself to be threatened, nothing else can touch them.
Moonies need criminals to run a slave labor force for their "society" to function, still rely on Earth to continue existing, couldn't even convince a weird rock goddess to join them, and they'll still die eventually because they're not actually free of kegare. And given their constant BP-level kegare spills, I doubt they'll last longer than a century. Humanity will colonize their home before they'll even realize it.
Also, Celestials aren't afraid of astronauts and weird t-shirts, just sayin'.
>not to mention that they supposedly have the best tech in the universe, and heaven has what? floating islands and peach trees? lame as fuck
Even the lowest Celestial is virtually invincible, possesses immense strength, and possesses genius-level intelligence and extensive knowledge of spellcraft. Some Lunarians may possess one of those qualities, but only Celestials have all three.
They can also make elixirs which are so powerful they instantly give humans superpowers. Why would the Celestials need to rely on technology when their own bodies are already beyond anything the moon could hope to achieve?

>>50239447
>If Tenko is called the Eldest Daughter then why is she more likely to be drawn flat?
Moon rabbit propaganda.
The Eldest Daughter is in fact, premium.

>>50240585
>High-end gods
Those are not a distinct group from the Celestials, and many of their number are considered gods, too, such as Oomura-no-Kami, who was previously in charge of dealing with earthquakes, until the Nawi, who had been serving the Celestials, took over. The Nawi would end up becoming Divine Spirits themselves, upon which their servants, the Hinanawi clan, were granted the privilege of joining the ranks of the Celestials.
They also associate with the Lord of Heaven, who is quite likely to be the Dragon God, which puts them far beyond anything Gensokyo could offer, and unlike for Gensokyo and the Lunar Capital, it's never claimed that the Goddess of Hell is beyond them in power, so there should be individuals amongst their number who match or even outright surpass her.
>magicians
No they don't. All those we've seen lost to a delinquent girl pretty badly.
>youkai
The one Celestial we see easily cracks an extremely powerful oni/hermit's magic circle and isn't intimidated by her in the slightest.
And that's from a delinquent Celestial who didn't even achieve her position through merit. Now imagine what a serious Celestial could do.
>and hermits could fold them like paper
Hermits, barring a few outliers who lack any moral fiber, all seek to become Celestials through their training. Their Senkai are also wide open to even the lowest of Celestials.
By their very nature, they're sub-Celestial.

Celestials simply are better than everyone else. It's just a fact.

>>50241015
>Those are not a distinct group from the Celestials
If they weren't, they would be called another thing. No, just because some gods may associate with them doesn't make those gods celestials.
>They also associate with the Lord of Heaven, who is quite likely to be the Dragon God
We don't know
>it's never claimed that the Goddess of Hell is beyond them in power, so there should be individuals amongst their number who match or even outright surpass her
Zun said that Hecatia was more powerful than anything in Gensokyo and Lunar Capital, with Gensokyo also including the Dragon God, since he is their patron deity
>No they don't. All those we've seen lost to a delinquent girl pretty badly.
Patchouli and Alice are nowhere powerful magicians, and Marisa is basically a human apprentice. PMISS mentions that powerful enough magicians can beat anything, as long they aren't caught in surprise
>The one Celestial we see easily cracks an extremely powerful oni/hermit's magic circle and isn't intimidated by her in the slightest
Kasen is a weak hermit, and her full form took a Tenshi + Reimu duo to take her down. The crucial part is that full form Kasen was drastically nerfed because the three Kasens were fighting each other for control, this after Arm-chan handled Reimu like nobody's problem
>And that's from a delinquent Celestial who didn't even achieve her position through merit. Now imagine what a serious Celestial could do.
The thing is celestials are pretty much implied to be extremely powerful, but static in that power. The profile on Tenshi mentions that she didn't get her immense power because of special training, but because of her celestial nature. A trained celestial might not be that powerful compared to an untrained one, unlike the abysmal difference between Hecatia and Okina, and the Yorigami sisters
>Hermits, barring a few outliers who lack any moral fiber, all seek to become Celestials through their training
Not anymore, Heaven is closed, so no more celestials. And Seiga, who comes from a land filled with hermits, has personally stated that she doesn't want to become one, implying that even if she had the chance, she would decline it . Maybe she knows something that we don't? Hermits can also become gods and saints (whatever this means in touhou context) too

Sometimes I tend to forget that Komachi has a grudge against Tenshi
We don't see them get shipped very often

File: b76f28cae09fc3577d5b82603(...).jpg (252 KB, 1275x843)

252 KB JPG

>>50241015
Gappy absolutely kicked bratty celestial's ass in SWR's story, and Tenshi wasn't fucking around in that fight.
>Now imagine what a serious Celestial could do.
The only thing celestials do is lay around, contemplate the beauty of Heaven, eat peaches, bully anyone beneath them (especially retarded humans), etc. We know that some assasins fron Hell are sent to kill some of them at least once in a century, but those assasins happen to be oni who, looking at how Suika was treated in Tenshi's ending in SWR, it implies the celestials just bribe the onis with a good party and that's it. Ironically, the untrained, delinquent, non-serious Tenshi has fought off shinigami in the past, a species that celestials fear with their very beings, making Tenshi an absolute badass among celestials. So yeah, with the exception of Tenshi, celestials might be a bunch of cowardly thugs who will look good beating low class scum, but will get annihiliated the moment strong enough opponents come around and don't fear them

File: 1748875648116253.jpg (289 KB, 1181x1748)

289 KB JPG

>>50245036
I didn't really get the impression that Tenshi was taking the fight against Yukari any more seriously. She probably at least half knew that her whole 'stick a keystone in the hakurei shrine' plan wouldn't work. I don't think she really gets serious until her route and even then, the dialogue kind of makes it sound like Reimu's the only one who she really took seriously, because Reimu's instincts told her that Tenshi didn't lose on purpose.

File: 83d55a7fe67707ea93b5b340a(...).jpg (202 KB, 848x1200)

202 KB JPG

>>50245103
>Yukari: A shrine like this should be destroyed
>Tenshi: What are you saying?! I'm not gonna let you do that!
Even ignoring how angry Yukari was before the fight, these lines alone already show that Tenshi was going to take this fight in particular seriously, and the rest of the dialogue is extremely aggresive as well, in a personal way

File: __doremy_sweet_touhou_dra(...).jpg (99 KB, 850x574)

99 KB JPG

>>50245247
The only fights I can recall where Yukari showed she was serious personally was against Tenshi and, if I recall, Doremy in 15.5

>>50240585
>magicians, youkai,
>comparable at all to high-end gods, magicians, celestials and lunarians
LMAO

File: __hinanawi_tenshi_touhou_(...).jpg (272 KB, 707x1016)

272 KB JPG

>>50241295
>If they weren't, they would be called another thing. No, just because some gods may associate with them doesn't make those gods celestials.
No, "gods" are not an exclusive group and can often also be categorized within other groups. Oomura-no-Kami is explicitly named as a Celestial in Touhou, and his name makes it obvious that he's also considered a god. Many gods are counted amongst the Celestials, Miko gaining power from faith means she should probably be considered a god, too, and even humans can be gods. There's absolutely nothing that indicates that Celestials and gods are completely separate concepts within the setting of Touhou.
>Zun said that Hecatia was more powerful than anything in Gensokyo and Lunar Capital, with Gensokyo also including the Dragon God, since he is their patron deity
The Dragon God is not included in Gensokyo, not having been seen since the Barrier was established, and generally being believed to be able to travel between the Netherworld, Heaven, Hell, and the Outside World without any difficulty. It's far beyond Gensokyo.
>Patchouli and Alice are nowhere powerful magicians, and Marisa is basically a human apprentice. PMISS mentions that powerful enough magicians can beat anything, as long they aren't caught in surprise
There's at least three things wrong with that statement:
One is that Patchouli and Alice are never considered weak magicians, with Alice being able to wield spells which are ancient and powerful enough to even draw Eirin's attention.
Second is that PMiSS only claims that with enough preparation they can take on any kind of "youkai". This obviously does not include much higher-class entities like Celestials and Lunarians.
Third is that Akyuu is not an expert on powerscaling, knows little about Celestials, and her book explicitly makes an effort to make the youkai look better than they are. It is not a reliable reference.
>Kasen is a weak hermit, and her full form took a Tenshi + Reimu duo to take her down. The crucial part is that full form Kasen was drastically nerfed because the three Kasens were fighting each other for control, this after Arm-chan handled Reimu like nobody's problem
Kasen's power is enough to impress Miko, so she clearly has a natural talent despite her lack of real discipline. Ibaraki-douji is also not weakened at all and the Arm is easily able to mentally dominate in the merger. There's also no indication that Tenshi was all that serious in that fight since her goal was clearly to let Reimu get the win. She just needed to keep the oni busy.
>The thing is celestials are pretty much implied to be extremely powerful, but static in that power. The profile on Tenshi mentions that she didn't get her immense power because of special training, but because of her celestial nature. A trained celestial might not be that powerful compared to an untrained one, unlike the abysmal difference between Hecatia and Okina, and the Yorigami sisters
A completely baseless hypothesis that reeks of video game logic. There's nothing in Touhou that implies that Celestials don't have a hierarchy (quite the opposite, in fact, as seen in Iku's article), and such a hierarchy could not be enforced if those at the top didn't hold more power.
Characters in-universe also believe that Celestials vary in skill and ability, such as Komachi at the tail end of Wild and Horned Hermit, and nowhere does it ever assert any equality.
Celestials simply start at a ridiculous baseline and only go up from there.
>Not anymore, Heaven is closed, so no more celestials. And Seiga, who comes from a land filled with hermits, has personally stated that she doesn't want to become one, implying that even if she had the chance, she would decline it . Maybe she knows something that we don't? Hermits can also become gods and saints (whatever this means in touhou context) too
Closed to virtuous souls judged worthy of Nirvana by the Yama, but nothing is said about it being blocked to hermits seeking to ascend in the flesh.
Seiga is a wicked hermit who doesn't want to become a Celestial because that requires her to become a better person, which she doesn't want to do. She enjoys her life as a hermit on Earth well enough and there's no indication she's particularly dedicated to hermit training, either.

>>50245322
fuck i wrote magicians two times. well anyway, the strongest youkai KNEEL to lunarians

File: bohd2g3qx1n01.jpg (131 KB, 697x900)

131 KB JPG

>>50245414
>There's absolutely nothing that indicates that Celestials and gods are completely separate concepts within the setting of Touhou.
If he was a god, Zun would have called him one, not 'celestial'. Just because his name has god in it doesn't mean really anything
>Miko gaining power from faith means she should probably be considered a god
No, you're murking the waters. She's a saint, which is probably another evolution of hermit, or just another type of hermit, if a special one.
>and even humans can be gods
Yes, evolving into one first. And no, Sanae is cheating by calling herself human, she's a demigod
>The Dragon God is not included in Gensokyo
He's worshipped in Gensokyo as its main deity, however? That includes him in the mix. And him being able to travel numerous realms isn't really that special for what the games has us used to
>One is that Patchouli and Alice are never considered weak magicians, with Alice being able to wield spells which are ancient and powerful enough to even draw Eirin's attention.
Patchouli is not a battlemage, she might know a lot of magic, but she's not that powerful. Alice's also not that special, even if Eirin might say that some of her spells are interesting that isn't grand in the big picture.
>Second is that PMiSS only claims that with enough preparation they can take on any kind of "youkai".
Youkai is an extremely broad term. It can include only the usual ones, to the point to include anybody remotely supernatural, like gods. This might imply that magicians, who start being as the weakest 'youkai' of all, have limitless potential.
>It is not a reliable reference.
People say that everytime they want to critize x youkai, but so far, she has been right. By that metric, celestials could also not be that special, and Tenshi could be just an outlier who is that powerful, like it was mentioned before
>Kasen's power is enough to impress Miko, so she clearly has a natural talent despite her lack of real discipline.
Still a pretty bad hermit all things considered
>Ibaraki-douji is also not weakened at all and the Arm is easily able to mentally dominate in the merger.
The manga explictly says that Ibaraki-douji was having an internal conflict between her three halfs, and Reimu sees that as their chance
>There's also no indication that Tenshi was all that serious in that fight since her goal was clearly to let Reimu get the win. She just needed to keep the oni busy.
'Nah, she wasn't fighting seriously.' If this is the answer of all Tenshilovers each time she fights...
>Completely baseless hypothesis
All records about celestials tell us that they do nothing, like >>50245036 said, but mainly they like to bully people that can't defend themselves from them. That sounds like 'fraud' material to me
>There's nothing in Touhou that implies that Celestials don't have a hierarchy (quite the opposite, in fact, as seen in Iku's article), and such a hierarchy could not be enforced if those at the top didn't hold more power.
That hierarchy seems more based by role than anything else. Oomura-no-Kami? It's said that hee was the celestial dealing with earthquakes AT THAT TIME. Besides, why would celestials fight themselves to rank up in the hierarchy? They are immortal, have everything they need, why would they burn Heaven over something as petty as getting duties over the rest?
>Characters in-universe also believe that Celestials vary in skill and ability, such as Komachi at the tail end of Wild and Horned Hermit, and nowhere does it ever assert any equality.
The mere idea that people like Komachi has to theorize on the power of celestials means that they don't get out of Heaven that much, outside Tenshi. So its hard to affirm or negate those thoughts.
>Closed to virtuous souls judged worthy of Nirvana by the Yama, but nothing is said about it being blocked to hermits seeking to ascend in the flesh
Closed means closed. For everyone.
>She enjoys her life as a hermit on Earth well enough and there's no indication she's particularly dedicated to hermit training, either.
She taught Miko, and Miko is pretty OP. Don't sleep on miss Nyan-Nyan. And with Tenshi getting out of Heaven, Seiga's reasons not to get into Heaven are well founded in my opinion.

the taxonomy of touhou doesn't make a lot of sense the deeper you delve into it, devils being a species of youkai make no sense, magicians even less so, and celestials are essentially buddhist-cosmology devas so i don't know where that fit with the other conflicting cosmologies in that universe

File: __hinanawi_tenshi_touhou_(...).jpg (228 KB, 1000x1289)

228 KB JPG

>>50245036
the headcanon that celestials aren't that mighty whiled tenshi being the most powerful celestial is something so cool... i dig it
>>50246391
the setting was created by a drunk, so dont think much about it

File: daily-byakuren-v0-yu0ujiy(...).png (165 KB, 1200x804)

165 KB PNG

>>50245307
And she defeated both. The fandom likes to call her a fraud, but she overperforms when she is serious
>>50245322
>Youkai
Yukari defeated Tenshi, a badass celestial who fights shinigamis who in turn terrorize celestials.
>Magicians
Byakuren, the strongest magician in Gensokyo by a huge margin, dominated Flandre in CDS, arguably the strongest SDM member. Also, there's a panel where Mizuchi is flying over the group after leaving Satori's body, and she looks all confident and smug, until she notices Byakuren with an expression of not having it, and calls it quits. Magicians are no joke, they just have a very small cast in touhou, and three jobbers representing them most of the time is just the cherry on top. The inverse happens with celestials, only one and it happens that she's an absolute beast instead of a lazy fucker.
>>50245485
Imagine being utterly owned by fairies
>>50246413
I do think Tenshi's cool

>>50246033
>That includes him in the mix
no it doesn't. he literally isn't in gensokyo. buddhas are also worshipped in gensokyo but they don't live there, they live in heaven.
>Patchouli is not a battlemage, she might know a lot of magic, but she's not that powerful.
huh? if a magician has more knowledge then she's more powerful. there's no "battlemage". patchouli obviously can fight too. Are you saying that the magicians we see are weak by magician standards because they aren't stronger than every god? you are forcing some rather extreme headcanon and acting like it's facts. the thing about magicians being able to take on any youkai with preparation is because they are versatile and can prepare lots of different spells. byakuren is a very powerful magician and while strong, she's obviously not stronger than every god.

>>50246564
>celestial who fights shinigami
all celestials do that. or they die.
>Imagine being utterly owned by fairies
IMAGINE BEING UTTERLY OWNED BY THE GUYS WHO GET UTTERLY OWNED BY FAIRIES!!!

>>50246564
>dominated
That's a funny way of saying "inconclusive 2-on-1".

>>50246613
>all celestials do that
No, it was revealed that those agents from hell aren't shinigami, but onis. Remember thar Suika partied like crazy in Heaven during Tenshi's ending in SWR, so that implies that the onis who are sent to Heaven just get pissed drunk there, and then return back to Hell to continue tormenting the guilty. The onis get drink and food, the celestials are left in peace. Win-win situation for everybody
>IMAGINE BEING UTTERLY OWNED BY THE GUYS WHO GET UTTERLY OWNED BY FAIRIES!!!
Moonie control damage, your ears are showing

>>50246646
>"inconclusive 2-on-1"
Shou was there for moral support, her attacks not even bothering Flan, while Byakuren was tanking and outclassing her so far. You can argue that Flandre was holding back, but Byakuren clearly didn't have an intent to seriously harm her as well

>>50246663
suika isn't one of the kishin who hunt hermits and celestials, wtf does she have to do with this? really, kishin are supposed to be MUCH more scary than shinigami, and they for sure don't fuck around when it comes to catching their prey. why would celestials even fear them if they are all friends anyway.

>>50246701
According to the wiki, kishin really are a higher type of oni. The celestials are actually fearful of shinigami, who can 'wither their flower crowns'. There are also four other species that can prey on them. The five species together are called the "five appointed weakeners"

>>50246701
>>50246716
I will add some more
>kishin are supposed to be MUCH more scary than shinigami, and they for sure don't fuck around when it comes to catching their prey
Onis are supposed to be scary, yet Suika, Yuugi, Urumi, and Kasen are people you would love to hang out with. Sure, there was the one who wanted to absolutely murder Seiga, but who doesn't want to kill her anyway? In any case, things might be different with hermits, since their flesh is beyond delicious for them and kishin might actually want to put some effort to get a taste, and celestials, with their flesh tasting very disgustingly, so they are just content with setting things around with a party and some mock fighting at worst. Besides, think about it: Heaven is closed, which means that more people go to Hell, and more people to torment equals onis are happier, so why would they go take the extra effort against celestials for potentially no gain at all?
>why would celestials even fear them if they are all friends anyway.
They really don't. If celestials are so beyond everyone, why would they lie about beating shinigami?

File: 1753984974305438.jpg (33 KB, 750x570)

33 KB JPG

>>50246716
wait, if onis are sent by hell to deal with celestials, while having a direct predator of celestials in the form of shinigami... something doesnt add up

File: dreams and heaven.jpg (196 KB, 1200x900)

196 KB JPG

What do they have in common?

>>50246838
hard to rape?

>>50246716
>>50246763
nah i think shinigami DO go after celestials after all. there's nothing suggestjng that they are lying beyond like, two layers of conjecture. otherwise it's all very contradictory. when komachi said that shinigami don't kill people, she obviously wasn't including celestials in this

>>50246564
>dominated Flandre
Her holding her own against Flan is enough of a feat. No need to make your argument weaker by adding these wild exagerations, Anon.

>>50246701
>kishin are supposed to be MUCH more scary than shinigami
Imagine losing to a chinese woman digging lmao

>>50246838
Great butts?

>>50246564
>Yukari defeated Tenshi
Yukari is in a league of her own. Suika is also very powerful. All other youkai are much weaker than them

>>50247354
god was i sleep deprived when i wrote this. anyway, upon further research, shinigami do indeed hunt celestials, and celestials are scared of them (tenshi is even scared of komachi when they first meet). everything i've read doesn't really give me the idea of celestials bribing kishin.

>>50247380
Sounds like a concession

>>50249250
I wasn't the guy arguing, I agree with the post. I was just commenting.

>>50246838
They float above the world and are carefree

>>50246579
>"The supreme god of Gensokyo. Humans, youkai, and all other living things worship this god. It is believed to live in the ocean, or the sky, or in the rain, but few have been able to confirm this. It looks like a serpent with hands and horns, is far thicker than a great tree thousands of years old, and is said to be long enough to block out the sky. The Dragon's cry rends the heavens and calls on thunderstorms. When it simply bends, it causes earthquakes and makes mountains crumble. Who knows what would happen to Gensokyo if something were to invoke its wrath?" - Hieda no Akyuu
Hecatia would cook this lizard
> if a magician has more knowledge then she's more powerful
However, this is not true. Marisa despite having only a few spells in her repertoire has managed to defeat Patchouli in the past, as well as she did to Alice.
>Are you saying that the magicians we see are weak by magician standards because they aren't stronger than every god? you are forcing some rather extreme headcanon and acting like it's facts.
No, I didn't say that, is just that there's a lot of hints that say that magicians can be way more powerful that what we usually see with the main witch three. Byakuren is a clear example of this, not needing for her to be the strongest magician to show it so