How much do Touhou's youkai and spirits differ from actual Japanese folklore? Obviously the actual kappa and tengu aren't building highly advanced societies, and they don't look like little girls who're into lolita-fashion. But more specifically, what about their depiction is accurate and what's not? How much "artistic liberty" dos Zun take?
>>50834720>How much "artistic liberty" dos Zun take?はい
>>50834720>Obviously the actual kappa and tengu aren't building highly advanced societies>kappaHave you read Kappa by Ryūnosuke Akutagawa? You know, that guy from Nitori's theme? Not exactly folklore, but it influenced Touhou depiction.>tenguThis one is more obscure, but The Spiritual Oracle of the Old Man of Mount Hira shows tengu as having absolutely working society on par with contemporary Japanese one, perhaps with even surpassing humans in terms of understanding of the metaphysics. Moreover, a lot of material on tengu is heavily tied to esoteric Buddhism (Shingon and Tendai) and Shugendo, so you end up with satires on Buddhist sects in which various tengu represent them, for instance, which requires them to have at the very least human-level society.Why am I talking about this? Because when you say>actual Japanese folkloreYou aren't grasping the nature of what 'folklore' in Japan is. Shinto is very folkish, polytheistic religion and Buddhism worked with it, rather than compete, even when it was a square peg in round hole in some cases. The divide between elites' and lay people's beliefs existed, sure, but it wasn't as hard delineation as it was in the West. In practice, this means that beside ethnographers' compilations of various oral stories, many of those creatures we call youkai (itself a term younger than some of them!) appear in serious theology and high culture works across periods and schools of thought. You have certain core traits and names, but many things change not only between places (as it is the case in the West, though it got flattened in public perception due to aforementioned compilations), but also between times.Take for instance oni: do you want to judge ZUN's depiction of them against terrifying monsters from Konjaku Monogatori, or philosophers from later Noh plays? Should tengu conform to how they appeared in Buddhist's parables, or how they appeared in oral tales of villagers near Tōno (another thing referenced in 2hu theme, btw)? Should we judge ghosts by how they conform to Buddhist or Shinto beliefs on afterlive? To make you read something, Hisona made a doujin with the various, historical takes on amanojaku affecting Seija: https://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/13192Due to this, you would need to look for ideas and details that have no known trace if you want to see ZUN's artistic liberty applied. You have this mostly in extrapolations accounting for modernity, Nue's ufos, Hatate's cellphone, Okuu's (or rather Yatagarasu's) connection to nuclear fusion, etc., though not always; see again kappa. Western borrowed 2hus, like Scarlets, Wakasagihime or Kagerou obviously have certain liberties, but their point of comparison isn't either Japanese folklore nor any western one, they should be compared to fantasy/pop-culture. Other than that you need to hunt for details, like Aya originating from a crow, per her PoFV profile; normally, if there was tengu origin provided at all, it was humans that had some issues with their proper Buddhist conduct that reincarnated into tengu. But who knows, perhaps ZUN came across some obscure story in which an animal became a tengu.I might be forgetting about something in the moment, but I think fairies, as presented in Touhou, are generally rootless. Vaguely westernish, but not really, with no exact correspondence on Japanese side, too.
>>50835086>but it wasn't as hard delineation as it was in the West.If we're going to talk about 'actual folklore' I feel obligated to say that most interpretations of historical events we have are 'lies for children' or outright fantasy constructed by alleged historians who don't even know Latin and all cite eachother, never primary sources of text.I mention this because I imagine something similar happens in other cultures, where their connection to antiquity gets lost and modern culture, pop, and other things start to fill in the gaps. It isn't the WORST for creative works, but there's a lot of missed potential that's lost.
>>50835086Genuinely a big thanks for the effortpost. The original reason for my question was that I was curious how much Zun was combining or streamlining different beliefs into the work. Before reading this, I actually just assumed that youkai were kinda separate from folk shinto, not part of the religion. Seriously, thank you.
>>50834720For starters I'm don't think human's notion about youkai was supposed to directly influence them like that.Human mind and words altering reality seems like an old idea but the "collective unconscious" so to say, altering reality in a way that creates it new beings feels more modern.A bit of me saying the same thing as >>50835086 but:Folklore changes depending on place and time and a bunch of things end up contradicting each other, a bit like how "scientifically accurate/plausible" things look different now vs a 100 years ago.Sometimes creatures/deities mix into a single one or a single one might split into many.Different cultures mix and syncretism happens... So... With myths you usually have to say "accurate to this specific work" if you want full accuracy, and even then a bunch of myths are vague and can be interpreted in multiple ways.Touhou in order to mix the different perceptions that different people makes perception itself alter youkai.Youkai also have changed from their old myth selves to the more modern depictions.The myths are also not necessarily true but a human at least went through something that lead to the myth being recorded.Another thing to keep in mind is that ZUN uses wordplay and etymology(or etymology headcanons) so kanji, pronunciation, Japanese sayings and Chinese culture will influence things.Other things might also be made up (or maybe stuff I don't know).For example the Kappa needing salty water and taking the from shirikodama instead implying that they lived in the sea before rivers(?). I'm not sure from where that came from in WaHH>>50835086>if there was tengu origin provided at all, it was humans that had some issues with their proper Buddhist conduct that reincarnated into tengu. But who knows, perhaps ZUN came across some obscure story in which an animal became a tengu.Since you seem knowledgeable on the topic: Have you seen any wolf tengu in Japanese myth/stories? Because I think that might be just due to tengu having the kanji for dog, or from Chinese mythology where tengu is actually a "heaven dog">they should be compared to fantasy/pop-cultureCan't really say much, since investigating "properly" all those mythical creatures that seem so "normal" to us is kind of in my to-do list.As well as the first interpretations of those creatures in Japan.>but I think fairies, as presented in Touhou, are generally rootlessI'm not sure if they are related to dryads/nymphs considering how dryads died when the tree(nature) associated to them died.So if we flip that logic dryads might still live if their bodies perish as long as the tree doesn't perish.Only that fairies in Touhou have are more generic representations of nature and only get the tree association by usually living in a tree.Nymphs are also pretty close to Greek deities just like fairy and kami in Touhou. Fairy uses a kanji that can be used for nymphs so there might be something. Clownpiece also strengthened the connection to ancient Greek culture.That mixed with other fairy depictions that might be mainly from A Midsummer Dream and latter depictions. As well as the prankster nature of fairies( or similar "beings of nature" across Europe) that I also should probably research.>>50835244A lot of stuff also simply got lost to time, misinterpreted or people made up stuff for with ulterior motives... The border between fantasy and historical account is thin.It's also hard to tell when someone was just being metaphorical if all that's left is some century or centuries old writing, as well as taking into account how words change over time and how a lot of things get modernized or adapted.
>>50835086>I might be forgetting about something in the moment, but I think fairies, as presented in Touhou, are generally rootless. Vaguely westernish, but not really, with no exact correspondence on Japanese side, too.LoLK points fairies toward being based on a somewhat fridge reading of the nature of nymphs in Greco-Roman mythology. As per the tale of the Lampads, they are descended from the Olympians who in their base form are elemental forces that anthropomorphized themselves through their own will, hence why the three fairies manga refers to them as nature deities. In Touhou, they are the "basic" form of gods that aren't something else like human or youkai when they aren't being worshiped as gods, at least the female half.
>>50835086>>50835973Originally Touhou's fairies were pretty much just the western kids' book versions of fairies. Small and cute little girls with insect-like wings. The word he uses is "yosei", which is nowadays mostly used to describe fairies in general, especially the type from fantasy books. While there have been several creatures described as "yosei" in Japanese folklore, these beings were rather different from the fairies in Touhou. It seems like Zun probably took some of their features, like Kijimunas of Okinawa who live in trees, and a legend that yosei of Mt. Horai "have no knowledge of great evil and so their hearts never grow old". However, all of these same features also apply to the Fantasy book version of fairies. Of course, the fairies in modern fantasy books are entirely different from their historical counterparts on the British Islands, as is attested by Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream.While Zun might have gone for the lampard route over the years, it seems like fairies were developed little by little. Before 'Piece, they seem to have evolved from a stereotypical fantasy book fairy in PC-98 into "small nature spirits" by the time Touhou 9 was released and Sangetsusei launched.
>>50834720An author shouldn't be bound by reality, that's the beauty of fiction. If ZUN wanted to portray Tengu's as modern Tokyo, then he has the right to do so.>>50835786>Human mind and words altering reality seems like an old idea but the "collective unconscious" so to say, altering reality in a way that creates it new beings feels more modern.I think ZUN took this from Fate because the idea sounds cool on paper. Fate has these ideas since Stay Night.
>>50834720Holy ebin, legendary Finnish meme crossover
