I was checking the capabilities of the italian navy, and what strikes me is that they have a very large chunk of their fleet specifically designed and built around anti submarine warfare. Their frigates, their destroyers, their patrollers, even their carriers are all focused on ASW. Why? What kind of enemy is currently flooding the mediterranean with submarines?
mediterranean was a common route for german u boats.
>>64165955a lot of NATO countries all have a specialty in something that they can contribute to the team and Italy has quite a big shipbuilding industry
Everyone's military doctrine is based around winning the last war they fought, and for dagos, the last war they fought was in the 1940s
>>64165955> What kind of enemyF*ance
>>64165955They're part of Neato, so they decided to contribute as ASW to the USN.
>>64165955Subs will do most of the killing in naval warfare. They are the largest threat.
If the Spanish Navy, guarding the entrance to the Mediterranean, is defeated, let's start preparing an Italian attack fleet.
>>64167026France would win the war in less than a week it's not even a question
>>64167634Remove nukes from the equation and it becomes more of a tossup.France has a catapult carrier, but Italy has F-35A/Bs.
>>64167704>Remove 25% of the French military budget from the equation and it becomes more of a tossupYeah, no shit Sherlock.
>>64165955>their destroyersHave quite capable ABM systems in the form of Aster
>>64165955That's not unique to Italy.Most Cold-war era NATO navies were ASW focused because the priority was fighting a third battle of the Atlantic against the Soviet navy to allow US troops to cross. See >>64166237
>>64165955Makes sense. The US wouldn't be able to help Europe if Soviet subs had free reign in the Atlantic.Since there's no counter for subs, these forces should still be useful for the next war.
How effective would these FREMMS be at say, interoperating with a US CSG in the Pacific to bolster ASW defenses, considering how badly the USN bungled their Constellation-class frigates?
>>64168162Now you mention it, did Chink have massive Submarine fleet?
>>64168171I don't know about the Italian variant but French FREMMs actually won multiple USN ASW competitionshttps://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/12/french-navy-fremm-frigates-hook-us-navy-asw-award-again/
The greatest threat to the post-war Italian navy was from a Soviet navy built around submarines in the Mediterranean and where Italy would cooperate with other NATO partners. From there expertise and doctrine just continues because there's not been a major post-war shift in thinking and the Mediterranean sea is a huge element of Italian psychology.>>64166237Why would ASW help the Regia Marina against Britain? The lesson would be air-power which would arguably still be the right decision given Italy's position in the centre of the Med.>>64168151That wasn't the job of the Italian Navy>>64168171>interoperating with a US CSGThey're designed and trained to operate together. Both sides are.Of course any weapons sent should be paid for by the US and exclusive mineral rights will (of course) be given for the eleventy-billion sent over already. It's only fair.
>>64168171OP is not a FREMM, it's a ddx, a destroyer on steroids and arguably more of a heavy cruiser. 14k tons of displacement, 180 m long, 80 vls cells, one 127 mm cannon on the bow and three 76 mm autocannons on sides and stern. They're expected to replace the durand de la penne class of destroyers by 2030, and they will be the most powerful surface vessels in europe.
>>64165955>What kind of enemy is currently flooding the mediterranean with submarines?Turkey. They have 13 subs in service and another 5 on order.>b-but they're allied with Italy!That's what they want you to think but the Turks have secretly been preparing for the Second Italo-Turkish War for the last 113 years.
>>64165955>I was checking the capabilities of the Italian navyYeah, dude? What are your assets, wikipedia?
>>64168382even if they were? what's it to you?
>>64165955There's exactly two kinds of ships in a navy. Submarines and Targets.
>>64168376italy can never be truly at peace with turkey as long as the watermelon seller is in power.
>>64168184Not really. They’ve got a dozen or so SSNs, and a handful of boomers. A fair amount of diesel boats though.Their subs are pretty Russia-tier though.
>>64168185That's a really impressive record. Looks like it's about both the ship and the sailors.>>64168200Then that means it'll work politically too then? Something like a multinational FONOP to a Taiwan blockade to show the cohesion of a coalition.>>64168228I really like the gun based airburst CWIS philosophy. Also assume it doubles as a surface drone counter too. Why doesn't the US use more guns?
>>64168939>Why doesn't the US use more guns?procurement wankery prolly. the DoD is filled with old boomer fart who greenlight projects based on how sleek and modern the cast model looks. i bet they thought that cannons were the past, and all the young cool kids exclusively use missiles etc.
>>64165955is that 3 types/6x CWIS on this bitch?
>>64168939>Then that means it'll work politically too then? Something like a multinational FONOP to a Taiwan blockade to show the cohesion of a coalition.Italy is already doing FONOP in the 'wider Mediterranean'.https://cimsec.org/on-wider-seas-italian-naval-deployments-and-maritime-outreach-to-the-indo-pacific/
>>64168939>Why doesn't the US use more guns?It has better missiles.>>64169144Dunning Kruger'd.The RIM-116 is a better system all around.
>>64169144Literally the exact opposite.The boomers are the ones going “NOOOOO IT’S GOTTA HAVE A GUN. MISSILES BAD. MUH VIETNAM!!! MUH MILLENNIUM CHALLENGE!!!”
>>64165955Wtf is this War Blunder looking cgi?!>>64169384So it would seem. A SeaRAM, 76mm Otos in both Super Rapid and Sovraponte mountings, and 35mm Millennium.Talk about ciws schizo.
be ItalyWWII ends, gets clowned on for switching sides like a kid trading Pokémon cardsfast forward to now, everyone thinks Italy = pasta, mandolins, and dudes yelling "mamma mia"meanwhile the Italian Navy quietly building ships all laser-focused on one thing: hunting subsfrigates? ASWdestroyers? ASWpatrol ships? ASWeven their goofy little carrier? guess what — ASW helicopters everywherepeople laugh, "haha Italy can't even run their trains"but what if… that’s the cover story?Theory goes like this: they’re not protecting trade routes, they’re not helping NATO. They’re prepping for the 4th Roman Empire, Submarine Edition™.Mediterranean is basically a giant Roman hot tub. Whoever owns it controls Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Italy knows they can’t go toe-to-toe with the US or Russia above water… so they’re going under it.Rumors (read: my cousin’s barber’s friend who did a tour in Naples) say there are secret undersea bases dug into the limestone coast. Think Bond villain lairs with pizza ovens. Sub pens disguised as “tourist grottoes.” Divers report hearing “accordion sounds” underwater near Capri. Coincidence?Every Italian ship doubling down on ASW = not defense, but recruitment and training for their own future sub fleet. Gotta practice finding what you plan on hiding. In ten years the Med will be swarming with stealth Italian mini-subs, crewed by dudes named Luigi, popping up under tankers and demanding tribute in olive oil.NATO pretends not to notice because “lol it’s just Italy.” Meanwhile the EU quietly lets them do it, because better pasta fascists under the waves than Russian boomers slipping into the Black Sea.tl;dr: Italians about to re-found the Roman Empire with a submarine legion, controlling the Mediterranean Basin from pizza-powered Atlantis bases. All roads once led to Rome; soon all shipping lanes will too.
>>64169665Of course missiles are better for intercepting conventional threats but what about meme threat spam like gas drones?
>>64169876All Burkes carry the 5" gun and hundreds of shells for dealing with flying lawnmowers. Soon laser hardkill systems will be more common as well.
>>64169770man it's gonna take an army of drones to make a dent on her exclusion dome. i bet the roaches are seething at the thought that their glorified toy planes don't work against proper CIWS systems, which so far have been every single one of them bar paper tigers like russia and india.
>>64169893Mark 45 Gun Specifications & PerformanceVariants & DeploymentMk45 Mod0–2 (5″/54-caliber): Standard on DDGs 51–80. Considered lightweight and maintenance-friendly compared to the older Mark42Mk45 Mod4 (5″/62-caliber): Features a longer barrel for higher projectile velocity, greater range, and improved naval surface fire support (NSFS). Installed on ships from DDG‑81 onwardPerformanceCaliber / Barrel Length:Mod2: 5″ (127mm), ~270in (54 calibers).Mod4: Same caliber, ~310in (62 calibers)Rate of Fire: Automatic loader fires 16–20 rounds per minute from a 20-round drum; sustained operation involves a full crew feedShell Weight & Types: Around 70lb (31–32kg). Includes varieties like HE-CVT, HE-PD, illumination, IR, Cargo, and moreStandard rounds: Approx. 13 nautical miles (24km) for both Mod2 and Mod4Extended-range (Mod4 with improved munitions): Up to 20nm (~37km)Future guided rounds (ERGM): Could boost range dramatically—potentially up to ~63nm (with new guided projectiles and charges)Fire Control & IntegrationControlled via Mk86 Gun Fire Control System or Mk160 Gun Computer System, with the Mk34 Gun Weapon System serving as the integrated subsystem for Aegis-equipped shipsMagazine CapacityDestroyers (DDGs): ~600 rounds.Cruisers (CGs): ~1,200 roundsSo yeah she'llfugg yaMaddurall over not even needing lasers, it's the US we don't care about cost.
>>64169770Italian state hardware still runs on windows 98
>>64168171>>64168185>>64168939>Pacific Ocean>ASW exercisesPic related, undisputed Pacific Ocean ASW exercise winner.
>>64170115if it works why change it
>>64169849Italians are too poor, and they drink/smoke too much to be able to mass and crew a formidable sub fleet.
>>64169849>haha Italy can't even run their trainsItalian trains are literally some of the best in Europe. Especially the FrecciaRossa.t. Swiss.
>>64169849my god...
>>64170473Italy is actualy two countries in a trenchcoat.The south might as well be another continet.t.Slovene
>>64172844True that.
>>64167634Italy has F35 which will fuck up any french plane, not to mention 1 french vs 2 italian carriersAside for subs Italian Navy beats French Navy in any department
>>64167939Yes, but then again those 25% are entirely impractical to use if france want's to keep existing.
Because once the first supercarrier is sunk subs will be the only naval vessels able to go into harm's way.
>>64174018>get pung by ASW aircraft>get depth charged>die
>>64174018Are you one of the retards who thinks that a CSG is just gonna charge headfirst into a fight 10 miles off a coast?
>>64174192No, he’s probably one of those retards that think a carrier being in a restricted, preannounced area during an exercise is totally analogous to actual conflict
>>64173396Wtf is going on in eastern Finland? Oh, right
>>64174139ngl dying inside a sub must be ignominious and terrifying. also it's not guaranteed to be quick, many of the kursk's crew died of asphyxiation in the dark, some of their last letters resurfaced as messages in a bottle
>>64169849Kek anon , and in reality the " Ponte Sullo Stretto " Is Just a cover up to build a massive over the Horizon Radar Just like the Duga-3 Radar station , but its disguised to look like a massive bridge
>>64169849Saved
>>64168228> 80 vlsjaps manage to slap almost twice that number on a 13k standard hull
>>64185769Maya class displace 10k tons and have 96 VLS cells. Are you imaging things?
>>64185868He's talking about thesehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_system_equipped_vessels_(ASEV)They're fucking massive and arguably a waste of money since land based missile defense systems could do the same thing for less money but they are also very cool
>>64185877Oh, forgot we were talking about future projects. Don't agree about it being a waste of money, it's on par for how much Aegis systems cost for a $3.5B per ship considering an Aegis ashore installation is $1.6B with only 24 VLS cells. Ask any missile tech and you'll hear how Aegis beats out layered Patriot+THAAD and the fact that you can move the entire thing is priceless.
>>64185907The alternative program they cancelled for this was an Aegis Ashore system like the ones deployed in the Baltic. It would've been cheaper but was cancelled seemingly because of concerns about the boosters landing in populated areas. Seems like something easily fixed, probably just an excuse the ship building industry there lobbied the government to use. There's also concerns about readiness given that there are only 2 ships of the class planned, meaning there could be deployment gaps as they may have overlapping maintenance and refit periods.
>>641859452 ships is definitely a handicap in a vacuum, but the existing fleet of destroyers can fill those gaps. I think it's a good idea to make it ship based if the land option was close enough to populated areas too, because China is definitely going to spam preprogrammed dongfengs a those sites and probably 'accidentally' at nearby civilian centers.
>>64185977It’s not so much the lack of available VLS cells in AEGIS equipped ships, it’s that these two would have the best radars in the fleet, the AN/SPY-7, and not having access to at least one would be a significant capability downgrade. A surface installation of the radars would’ve probably been better than relying on only 2 sea platforms and would be good for redundancy if they can afford it.
>>64186029I think the vulnerability of a stationary land-based installation is enough of a downside outweighs the improved capabilities that may come with it
>>64186097The real solution would just be to build more ships but failing that I think the added redundancy would be worth it.
>>64185769>managei have no doubt you could cram 200-300 cells in a 200m hull, but the ddx is a multirole vessel, not an arsenal ship.
>>64165955Because in a hot war, surface combatants are hard-countered by salvoes of air-launched antiship weapons (within effective range from friendly coastline). That just leaves submarines, which are harder to detect and hunt down.
>>64186097>vulnerability of a stationary land-based installation is enough of a downsideThisLand based is fixed and immobile and vulnerable to mass ballistic attacks with dumb Baidu-guided warheads.At least with an arsenal ship, it can move.
>>64186535> which are harder to detectUnless they’re Russian or Chinese
>>64185877how the heck land based is not a waste of money than ship-based?
>>64187632Russian submarines are so loud that italian nonnas will hear "blyat" coming from their faucets
>>64186029Spy-7 is already expensive enough, might as well put them on a platform with a better chance of survival, albeit not by a huge margin against china missile spam
>>64165955>currentlyTheir definition of that may be more far reaching, given some of the subs and drones that do exist. Granted, can they even detect the stuff they're worried about? I wouldn't know. I only recently learned/was reminded of the Ohio-class submarines, or more that craft like them exist.
>>64191000I think survivability actually increases by orders of magnitude as opposed to just marginally. Simply turning off course defeats any terminally hypersonic missiles and everything else is easily interceptable up to the point of saturation, at that point you should be wondering why you got close enough to the Chinese shore to be targeted by shorter range saturation missiles.
>>64165955>>64166220>>64166232>>64166237Submarines. The Mediterranean has three entrances/exits (Gibraltar, Suez, Dardanelles/Bosphorus). These are the main supply lines of international shipping. If you close the Med, and none of these nations will be able to sustain a war for long.
>>64185977Yeah I think existing Japanese destroyers can still use the sm-3, though with inferior radar suite compare to the ASEV
>>64192577They have Aegis on 8 destroyers, but only two have SPY-7 radars while the rest have SPY-1Ds
>>64185769it could have been much worse, just check out the f126
>>64187793Cheaper and way less maintenance
>>64168141>Have quite capable ABM systems in the form of AsterLol. Also note that SM-3s aren't represented on this chart because it would be too hard to see everything else that zoomed out.
