Can someone explain to me how the Zircon works? I know it's "hypersonic" but in what way, is it a ballistic with HGV? is it airbreathing high alt cruise missile with scram jet? Is it just a rocket assisted maneuvering warhead? How does it actually work?
I see this posted everywhere but is this not just an American prototype test bed?
>>64175677what part of "glide vehicle" do you not understand?
>>64175677ask ONI>>64175681it is
>>64175677>is it airbreathing high alt cruise missile with scram jet?It's this.>>64175687It's not a glide vehicle, it's a cruise missile.
>>64175677It's Russian lies, masses and masses of Russian lies surrounding a bog standard cruise missile. Just like Oreshnik is just a ballistic missiles surrounded by jeet hype and Russian lies.
>>64175677>Can someone explain to me how the Zircon works?No.This information has not been made publically available. Experts have made a wide variety of guesses over the years but they are just guesses.
>>64175760So in true russian style it is almost definitely total vapourware
>>64175744>scram jetRam jet* It's a shitty copy of Boeing's Hlyfly, without the dual mode ramjet.
>>64175677Yes, it's a cruise missile that goes very fast, can't be intercepted by any western AA so it's pretty much gonna kill any aircraft carrier with impunity
>>64175826As you can see, it's a Boeing Hlyfly copy, and Russia even built a copy of Boeing's Hlyfly to test and copy further. Same as China's Lingyun-1 Hyfly copy.https://www.twz.com/sea/our-best-look-at-russias-shadowy-zircon-hypersonic-missilehttps://thedefensepost.com/2018/05/21/china-lingyun-1-hypersonic-missile-revealed/
>>64175869ahh so its probably something like this and not the waverider. I also remember watching some russian doc on youtube about their radar testing facility where they have mock ups of b2's and missiles and even MIRV decoys. Can't find it now, but I think this is the same place.
Its just a solid fuel ballistic missile with a warhead that can maneuver once it drops to 4500-5000kmph. Goes hypersonic in space then yadda yadda, nothing special. Like khinzal
>>64175902yeah that star, anyone remember that channel on youtube?
>>64175913>Mach 4That sounds very interceptable
>>64175913Kinzhal is an Iskander variant, Zircon is straight up vaporware
it's functionally an oniks with a scramjet over a ramjet; it looks similar. it even fits the same launching systems. as for its operation, it functions like any other hypersonic cruise missile. a rocket booster gets it up to speed and then the scramjet takes over (booster is discarded). it has to climb and follow a quasi-ballistic trajectory to reach hypersonic speeds as the air is too thick to achieve them down low. it'll then dive on the target terminal where the air pressure slows it down to around mach 4 (which is also needed for accurate targeting; the plasma sheathe doesn't allow it to receive emissions). i'm sure it utilizes ins to get to the target area and then switches on an active radar once it's slowed down. the reported top speed of mach ~9 will be right for medium altitude.i wouldn't say it's a better missile than its sibling, oniks, rather it serves a different purpose. it'd be used on time-sensitive targets that need to be hit quickly. since oniks can fly low-altitude all the way to the target and isn't much slower in terminal, it'll likely be harder to defend against.
>>64175760so basically it doesn't exist>>64175849ok, cool. may we see it?
>>64175677It's another case of typical russian military gear: Overpromised and underdelivered.
>>64176027It's literally in the OP image, did you turn off image diplay?
It's a flying T-14 Armata platform. HATO is doomed.
>>64176117That doesn't look like it's going hypersonic to me
>>64175849What is leading a shot? Modern missile defense systems predict trajectory. Muh hypersonics aren’t particularly maneuverable and have the heat signature of the bloody sun
>>64176580The SM-6 in the form of the AIM-174B alone has shown it's able to outmaneuver fighters and countermeasures on the level of or if not exceeding AMRAAMS
>>64175849Russians are experts at killing aircraft carriers...
>>64177851Yes but normally it takes them like 30-40 years of using it as a floating gay rape barge that you don't clean. They can't really kill one with missiles.
>>64175677Here is how zircon works
>>64177851>Russians are experts at killing aircraft carriers...Silence
>>64175677>explain to me how the Zircon worksComrade, when the ass is in the ass all is understood.Your ass is not in the ass.
>>64175902so what's the key difference between dual-combustion ramjet like this and the waverider ?
>>64184702waverider has demostrated powered flight
>>64185102so does zircon, a bonus point is it even has combat record
>>64185889sure thing bro
>>64184702there's not much practical difference between dual-combustion of hyfly and dual-mode of x-51 waverider. both can operate at supersonic and hypersonic velocities. dual-combustion uses a couple of different intakes on the same engine to achieve supersonic or hypersonic velocities; dual-mode uses both subsonic and supersonic airflow in the same engine from the single intake. zircon will use one of these methods. ukraine has tracked them at around mach 7.5, which is similar in speed to the claimed mach 8 from some russian sources, so there's consistency.
>>64181676>USS Gambier Bayyamato didn't achieve any direct hit on her though
>>64188168You are thinking of the straddle of the white plains which still disabled the ship and then permanently kicked it off the front lines for the rest of the war due to the damage sustained. The gambier bay was directly shot and sunk by the yamato and her entourage from close range.
>>64185889just like zircon, my homemade cardboard drone has also demonstrated powered flight, is it hypersonic now?>bonus point is it even has a combat recordno it doesn't lmao, thirdies and overreaching their fantasies, name a better duo.
>>64177904where's this from ?
>>64190704The literal livestream of spaceX, America is so far ahead that they can livestream their megalo founded projects from space
>>64188749ukraine has tracked them numerous times and they're consistent with a hypersonic cruise missile. hypersonic mid-course of mach 7.5 and high supersonic terminal approach of mach 4.5.this is consistent with the reported testing numbers prior to their combat use.
>>64194283So zircon is a reconfigured oniks.Would terminal high hypersonic (> Mach 7) possible for a true optimized scramjet HCM design ?
>>64194283>>64186399>ukraine has tracked them at around mach 7.5>ukraine has tracked them numerous timesProof?>they're consistent with a hypersonic cruise missile.No, they're consistent with a SRBM. HCMs are designed to cruise at mach 7 until impact at relatively low altitudes.>hypersonic mid-course of mach 7.5 and high supersonic terminal approach of mach 4.5.That would imply they run out of propellent and are unpowered during their terminal phase, which means they're not a HCM, and more in line with a standard SRBM.>this is consistent with the reported testing numbers prior to their combat use.I thought they claimed mach 9-13?
>>64190704
>>64190704https://youtu.be/mDyK2ANmM3M?t=529
>>64194295yeah, it'll be an oniks mod. they would have done this for cost saving measures due to utilizing the same launching platforms and existing cells, along with manufacturing. it'll have a reconfigured nosecone for hypersonic velocities and a similar axissymmetrical intake configuration utilizing a dual-mode scramjet engine. they will have lightened its warhead for more fuel capacity, and ukraine said they did this (down to 100-150 kg. from 300 kg. of oniks).for hypersonic terminal velocities, you just need a higher mid-course velocity; any maneuvering will be a velocity tax. on a dive, mach ~10 at mid-altitude will get mach ~6 terminal; mach ~13 will get ~8. low-altitude air is thick, so it slows hypersonic stuff down quickly, even with a running engine. the one issue is that you'll need to rely on ins for guidance due to the plasma sheath, so accuracy will be less and it really won't be able to hit a point target (say a warship or small structure). this is more useful for nuclear warheads since hypersonic terminal speeds are generally out of the scope of current interceptors and ins is good enough for area targets. the proposed air-launched version will go a bit faster if dropped from a higher-altitude, so they'll use more energetic maneuvers to bleed its velocity down to high supersonic.
>>64194295>terminal high hypersonicno scramjet is designed for flight below 30k feet so it won't ever be reaching these speeds in terminal
>>64194283sure thing bro
>>64186399>>64194283>>64194374So, from what I can gather, Zircon is boosted to 130k+ ft where it, then, cruises at up to mach 5.5 using its engine (which, could still just be a ramjet working in the upper limit of its curve where it would be highly inefficient. (Ukraine's claiming it's scramjet powered, though)), then while still under power, dives to a velocity of around mach 7 - using up what's left of its propellent, and finally slowing down to around mach 4.5 until impact, in its terminal phase in the thicker, lower atmosphere as it's unpowered at that point. It also has shit accuracy, and able to be intercepted by PATRIOT. Most likely PAC-3, or PAC-3 MSE that has intercepted Zircon multiple times. It seems to follow what the US calls a pile-driver trajectory, and is used by the Hera target test missile when testing the PATRIOT against targets with a velocity of around mach 8.1-8.45 (see pic, and DTIC document).>Hera and Storm Target Test Missiles:https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA288602.pdf>Ukrainian sources talking about Zircon's speed, alt, range, and accuracy:https://english.nv.ua/russian-war/russia-uses-hypersonic-zircon-missile-in-kyiv-attack-first-in-over-six-months-50467123.htmlhttps://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_zm22_zircon_missile_hypersonic_and_superior_to_the_kinzhal_speeds_and_engine_details_revealed-9959.html
>>64194532See: >>64194592Zircon is only mach 5.5 cruise at 130k ft, and mach 7.5 during a diving pile driver trajectory until it rapidly loses energy to high supersonic speeds in terminal phase.>The one issue is that you'll need to rely on ins for guidance due to the plasma sheathPlasma sheath black out is only really an issue for blunt body objects like the space shuttle and manned capsules, and even then it can be minimized by putting the antenna as far aft as possible, and using a satellite as a relay ala SpaceX using Starlink as a relay for Starship and putting the antennas on the rear. Fuck it, I'll just copy/pasta what I wrote last time:It's highly dependent on altitude, shape, antenna location and power, TPS design, temperature, etc. Oxygen doesn't start dissociation until Mach 7-10, and nitrogen around Mach 13 at ~150k ft alt. Then shape comes into play, a sharp, wedge type design is going to have a smaller boundary layer which will have a thinner, weaker ion density meaning a weak plasma layer at velocities above Mach 10 and alts below 150k ft. Then you start getting into TPS materials ablating and off-gassing, adding ionized material into your boundary layer making a denser ion layer and a stronger plasma. Also, shaping as to allow "windows" in the boundary layer around your antenna where plasma won't affect your antenna uplink, or placing your antenna as far back as you can to get away from the worst ion conditions which are always up front. Then, frequency and power are another way to push through that plasma layer. Only blunt body objects like the space shuttle and Mercury/Gemini type return capsules really have to worry about plasma blocking out comms, and even then it's not for too long. There was no plasma sheath that enveloped the X-15 at Mach 6.7, the X-43A at Mach 7 and 9, and HTV-2 at Mach 20 causing comms blackouts.
>>64194629Sources, if you want to read them, or not.https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20100008938/downloads/20100008938.pdfhttps://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO%20Educational%20Notes/RTO-EN-AVT-116/EN-AVT-116-03.pdfhttps://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20100000028/downloads/20100000028.pdfhttps://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA430330.pdfhttps://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA496640.pdf
>>64194592>>64194629>>64194641Good posts, thanks anon. I always enjoy it when people point out the difference between actual hypersanics and thirdie-tier "ACHKSHUALLY it's not technically a ballistic missile :^)" hypersanics.
>>64194374>Proof?ukrainian news articles. which will be working under wartime principles like everyone does, but their information is useful and if it's consistent with other sources, then there's confidence in reliability.>No, they're consistent with a SRBM. HCMs are designed to cruise at mach 7 until impact at relatively low altitudes.every single hypersonic cruise missile is going to have supersonic terminal approach if they want to hit the target with a conventional warhead. you can't rely on emissions or optical guidance with a plasma sheath. any actual hypersonic terminal approach if desired is going to be mostly retained energy from mid-course. the air pressure is too thick down low to attain sustained hypersonic velocities at cruise and ablation is going to quickly destroy the munition if it keeps on trying to push through it; this is why you won't see a hypersonic cruise missile flying mid-course at low altitude like traditional subsonic and supersonic munitions. and yeah, they do behave like aeroballistic missiles, though mid-course can be flatter for similar munition mass as scramjets are more efficient than rockets.>I thought they claimed mach 9-13?they claimed mach 8 from an actual test.
>>64194641Once a a while quality post, bravo anonOne question, do you current hypersonic program like HAWC, HACM or waverider can maintain their terminal approach speed above hypersonic threshold, or something better like Mach 6 ?
>>64194769See: >>64194629Plasma sheaths aren't going to be much of a problem. And a steep pull down (filled over and pull down to keep positive Gs on the airframe, just like all CMs do, and just like the HTV-2 did) will keep the velocities in the hypersonic range at impact without spending too much time within the thicker lower atmosphere, and it will keep total BTU input low as the angle is steep, and the time spent in the higher dynamic pressure areas of the atmosphere will be short. Just like an ICBM's RV does. You will be able to use radar as a terminal seeker as the plasma sheath is going to be extremely weak, and you can use magnetic windows, chemical injection, or aerodynamic shaping to nullify what is there - if any. Or an optical seeker behind a sapphire window like the mach 8 THAAD and Arrow interceptors do, or use an actively cooled window like the mach 10 HEDI KITE did. This is all old hat shit that has been working for decades, or has been tested and proven to work.>they claimed mach 8 from an actual test.Pretty sure Putin said mach 9. Got a source?>>64194791From what I gather, HACM cruises at mach 7, and should be able to stay above mach 5 in its terminal phase.
>>64194835PART II
>>64194835>Or an optical seeker behind a sapphire window like the mach 8 THAAD and Arrow interceptors doThe little blue window is a slab of sapphire covering an IR sensor. THAAD and Arrow use almost the same exact sensor window. I have papers on them somewhere, I'll try to find to show, if someone wants them. Just ask, as I really don't feel like digging them out for nothing.
>>64194855
>>64194836>>64194835Just post the original doc, resolution too small
>>64194870Here: https://www.twz.com/33859/blasting-the-air-in-front-of-hypersonic-vehicles-with-lasers-could-unlock-unprecedented-speedsAlso, stop being a phonefag, or just open in new tab, and delete the "m.">>64194857THAAD seeker in high mach wind tunnel for testing.
>>64194879
>>64194881THAAD seeker hypersonic sled test.
>>64194835>or use an actively cooled window like the mach 10 HEDI KITE did.>Report on HEDI:https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA210006.pdf>>HEDI KITE tests:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmKsO7QJvz8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGTZhpsv6U>Report on HEDI's cryogenically cooled seeker window:https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA386555.pdf>Cryogenic cooling of the HEDI KITE seeker.Go to 25 minute mark and watch to see it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDCzpAuWM1w
>>64194898Close up of HEDI's cryo cooled seeker window.
>>64194902
>>64194907HEDI infograph
>>64194909HEDI was a modified Sprint that took the HOE KKV, shrunk it, added a cryogenically cooled seeker window, and added it to the Sprint to make it a hit-to-kill interceptor.
>>64194913Advance Interceptor Technology (AIT) interceptor that was getting research right after HEDI, but before THAAD. All the HEDI and ATI research went into THAAD and Israel's Arrow-2/3.
>>64194923
>>64194857>>64194885How about sm-3/6 ?
>>64194926
>>64194957AIT seeker head test design.>>64194931What about them?
>>64194835>You will be able to use radar as a terminal seeker as the plasma sheath is going to be extremely weak, and you can use magnetic windows, chemical injection, or aerodynamic shaping to nullify what is there - if any.You're retarded. Plasma generation is highly dependent on air density, shit that works in space won't work at 50k feet and shit that works there won't work at sea level.
>>64195000>>64194629>>64194641Educate yourself.
>>64195010>>64195000You're retarded. None of this shit is feasible for terminal guidance at sea level without slowing down.
>>64195024>at sea levelWhy would you need guidance at sea level, you retarded fuck? You already impacted the ground. What a fucking idiot you are. Last reply, as you're obviously too stupid to converse with intelligently, and all you're looking to do is argue.
>>64195033>Why would you need guidance at sea levelWhere do you think ground targets are, you cocksucking vatnigger?
>>64195036
>>64195055
>>64195067
>>64194870>Just post the original doc, resolution too smallRemove the m at the end of the image name or switch to browse in desktop mode.
>>64175921>that startvZvezdathey used to have an program named Opyжeйкa, idk where their channel is.search results also bring up FK Crvena zvezda, an unrelated football club located in Belgrade
>>64194552Not if you aint fast enough
>>64176315cause the cap will pop off during boost phase
>>64175677there are two types of hypersonicthe iskander type that is hypersonic at apogee and its basicly supersonic at terminaland the ones like kinkinkinzaaaalllllalalal and zircon which are hypersonic at terminal phase they absolutely cant hit jack shit on moving targets obviously think of them like the supercavitating torpedoes they rely on the target not turning at all at the predestined area of attack
