I'm watching this video and it seems like beyond John Boyd and his energy theory, everyone in the Figher Mafia was certifiably retarded. It seems like they had these boomer 'tech no work' mindset in the 90s even before they got paid by puccia to talk reformer bullshit. How does one continue to double down despite overwhelming evidence saying otherwise?https://youtu.be/1Pgiq-TlmSo
>>64178264Getting paid by russia is all you gotta know for how useful their advice is to americans
>>64178264I mean, if the United States found itself on the losing end of an attritional total war where F-35s are being shot down faster than they can be replaced, the Fighter Mafia's critiques of its per-unit cost and over-engineering might have some merit to them, but those aren't the wars we're fighting right now or will be in the foreseeable future.Ironically their advice would have been fairly sensible to Nazi Germany (and would have gotten them purged as well), which is probably where they're approaching it from.
>>64178325Seems like even with drones to 'level' the playing field, it feels like it won't hold true with AHEAD and Laser SHORAD being quickly fielded. The low end of the high-low mix is still gonna be a lot higher than kamikaze drones imo.
>>64178264>Be in a group whose most qualified member is theoreticion/flight instructor who flew F-86 Sabers in Korea without seeing any combat>Rest of the group are "analysts" with no military or engineering backgrounds >Despite this group annoints themselves as experts on all things related to military strategy and weapon system design>Proceed to come off as massive retardsIt's not that mysterious when you actually break it down.
>>64178325there are more F-35s than russia and china have modern jets combined
>>64178264So Lazer pig Israel no longer paying your wages?
>>64178287These people were known to be retarded decades before they started taking checks and doing interviews for Russia. Take a look at the developmental history of the F-15, F-16, Abrams, Bradley etc. and you'll see that they actually were just that fucking dumb.
>>64178482Lazerpig straight up hated Boyd so no
>>64178494Wow that went straight over your head
>>64178264They didn't have the practical experience to make good evaluations of details or the theoretical comprehension to understand the fundamental principles, let alone both. They couldn't differentiate between things good at one time, things in multiple times, and timeless things.They were vibing. To midwits of their generation born into the same vibes they felt plausible and realistic, but once the moment passed not even the midwits could miss the stench of BS.
A combination of reasons, but short version is their flawed understanding of how the nature of air combat had changed meant they all think that something like an F-4 or MiG-21 sits neatly on the max cost-effectiveness curve while the F-35 is paying 10x more for marginal improvements. Meanwhile the reality is that its probably the things they hate that actually sit on the curve.
Why haven't we done this yet, are we just stupid?
>>64178704Too many eggs in one basket, and wars arent won by individual weapon systems, they are won by combinations of different shit.Boomer lead-poisining autism is so strange, feels surreal reading it.
>>64178771>Too many eggs in one basketSparky has you covered then
>>64178771Thanks for reminding me of Chinman, that story is a riot.
>>64178483>These people were known to be retarded decades before they started taking checks and doing interviews for Russia.My zoomer friend, russians have been running around and paying niggers (both literal and figurative) since like 1920s.
>>64178264Boomer proto contrarians, basically. Attach your self worth to how different you are from your peers.
>>64178325What's going to shoot down there F-35s? S-400? We've seen how well those work.
Revolt of the Majors covers all this in much greater detail and more accurately than any youtube sloppa. The one word answer is Autism. the more detailed answer is Autism but also flawed lessons from early missile combat, general post-vietnam malaise, people whose experience ended in WW2 and Korea but thought modern fast jet combat is the same, self-important think tanks and a political tailwind from people who wanted the defense budget slashed. Sprey himself was incredibly petty even to the point of undermining himself. For example he hated the harrier due to petty 70s squabbles about the acquisition of the AV-8A (what all the twinks who post here would call "tea") and a general boomer distrust of UNKNOWN TECHNOLOGY like VTOL. Sprey had always championed small day fighters with no radar. When the Sea Harrier (an adorably tiny day fighter with short legs and IR only missiles) stood toe to toe with supersonic BVR capable mirage IIIs he refused to ever use the only example ever in history that might (conceivably if you squint) prove his point because "'ate the Harrier, just don't like it"
>>64178786The weather started getting roughThe tiny ship was tossed....
>>64178942>and a political tailwind from people who wanted the defense budget slashed.Yeah. Iron Major's is nice for pointing out that most of the notable mainstream approval the Reformers received back in the day came from pundits/congresscritters who were already unhappy about the Carter/Reagan defense spending increases. For some reason they were really receptive to the guys telling saying that the cheapest weapons were the best no matter the context. >he refused to ever use the only example ever in history that might (conceivably if you squint) prove his point because "'ate the Harrier, just don't like it"while that's funny, I think the reformers were more just largely indifferent to any actual real world military happenings because in their minds they knew their theories were already perfect. Keep in mind in this period the Reformers were very aggressively ignoring everything the IAF was doing with the techno crap F-15's and F-16.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F33h9-oUfDU&t=685s&ab_channel=TheOperationsRoom
>>64178264They weren't too wrong when they started, they were very wrong by the 90's, and they were dribbling idiots getting worse every decade after.
>>64179200Correct. They were thinking of how to shoot down the expected hordes of cheap Mig-21s. After the Soviets collapsed, their planes rotted and withered away.
>>64179307>>64179200>reformers were right about the F-15Really?
>>64179429"Weren't too wrong" is not the same thing as "Right about everything."
>>64178325>if
>>64178264Turns out it's so easy to hoodwink retards that even other retards can do it
>>64178264They were all nobodies who were only tangentially related to designs. Based on merit they'd remain nobodies but they wanted attention. That's really it. They just took stupid opinions that got them validation that they sought. Feeling smarter thane everyone else and getting media attention felt really good.
>>64178264>How does one continue to double down despite overwhelming evidence saying otherwise?it's just human psychology, especially for those quirky outsiders with weird theories that they think they've found some hidden secret knowledge. These people never changed, and instead died. The F-35 has been stress tested by Israel's strikes into Iran and Yemen and came out with flying colors. Anyone still thinking the F-35 isn't the coolest shit ever is a dupe.
>>64178264>>64178483>>64178414Also, I think another aspect is the Vietnam War's lingering cynicism. US lost a lot of aircraft during the war, and there was this persistant belief that the "military industrial complex" was a giant scam, building crap vehicles that can't perform that well and put American's lives in danger. The Fighter Mafia and reformers cashed in on that cynicism by spinning a tale that there's massive military corruption and companies are selling over-priced junk to make the most money rather than be the best vehicle. Thus they were initially seen as whistle blowers speaking truth to power. The irony is that US military itself saw the problem, and tried to innovate so that it wouldn't happen again and it's these very innovations that the Fighter Mafia and Reformers opposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_losses_of_the_Vietnam_War
>>64178942>stood toe to toe with supersonic BVR capable mirage IIIs he refused to ever use the only example ever in history that might (conceivably if you squint) prove his point because "'ate the Harrier, just don't like it"Because one big reason Harriers stood against Mirage III is advantage in missiles. AIM-9L is massive leap over AIM-9M. But one mention that missiles are capable made Sprey shake in anger.
>>64178325>the Fighter Mafia's critiques of its per-unit cost and over-engineering might have some merit to them,In current war Russian "attritable Fighter Mafia aircraft" SU-25 and KA-50 are nowhere been seen near frontlines, and when they crossed frontlines they just just provide spectacular "shoot down aircraft shows". They are replaced by guided glide bombs, weapons Sprey adamantly believed that they don't work.Main anti tank weapon of fighting sides is FPV drones and ATGMs, both guided weapons Pierre believed they don't work, only aircraft cannon works vs tanks.There were zero gun fights bettwen fighter aircrafts in this war, type of combat Pierre believed is to be central for air war, its all long range missiles that "are overpriced, overrated, and don't work".Real attritable largest since WWII war is completely oppositely to what Pierre believed and envisioned. No guns and guided weapons everywhere.You can't be more wrong then Sprey envisioning "the real war"
>>64179812First internet trolls and rage harvesting influencers before internet.
>>64178325NavAir seems to think this is exactly what is to come if the bitching of the engineers is any indication. I have heard more gripes about the production pipeline from gov't employees than any MIC shill, but I'm just listening to them bitch over beers, not sitting in a briefing room.
>>64178325Nah,not even the nazis.They had to make the Tiger 2,you can't win a war by defending.And if the mafia made a tank for the jerries it would be Panzer 38s or Pz IV Js.Both subpar.
>>64178325Problem is that their shitty fighters will be mowed down faster and achieve less.
>>64179962True, all too true. Although in the specific case of the early engagement with a Mirage IIIE BARCAP the shots were rear aspect and it came down superior British air combat training. The Mirage IIIs operating from Stanley had probed the taskforce's air defenses several times but had always used their extreme brainmelting speed to zoom off like sanic instead of merging. On May 1st they didn't zoom off and merged into a (very slow for the Mirage and perfect for the harrier) dogfight that ended badly for them. It's sort of like fighting against a skinny 5'4 BJJ blackbelt and deciding to get on the mat with him instead of picking him up and powerbombnig his astolfo cosplaying ass head straight through the canvas Bob Sapp style. The Mirage IIIs the speed to dictate the fight but gave it up for the chance at a kill
>>64178264They were right. Swarms of cheap "aircraft" is what will dominate the battlefield
>>64178264Because most of them were know-nothing scammers>>64179962>AIM-9LNot a single 9L was launched from the frontal aspect or against the sun. The Harrier pilots used it just as they would a 9B. Its main advantage is more reliable electronics.
>>64180248>Operating from StanleyLol. Lmao, even. Stanley's airbase, Mount Pleasant, was too short and rough to house fighter jets; it can now, because the RAF expanded it after the war. The reason the Mirages couldn't use their maximum speed was due to their extreme range; operating out of bases on the Tiera Del Fuego, they didn't have the fuel for afterburners and supersonic flight, hence why the Harriers had the drop on them.
>>64180248>Although in the specific case of the early engagement with a Mirage IIIE BARCAP the shots were rear aspect and it came down superior British air combat trainingAIM-9L has massively larger rear aspect engagement zone too, massively better rejection of flares and natural clutter, and it on the another level in maneveuerablirtty. It has solid no escape zone where fighter aircraft can't outmaneuver it at all. When you can outmaneuver AIM-9M in all it's engagement envelope with proper maneuver.>The Mirage IIIs the speed to dictate the fightBoom zoom works with gun fights, when missiles barge in, not so much, because your zooming away ass is a perfect target for missile shot.
>>64180269Kinda. FPV drone is ultimate "cheap fighter spam.But it's guided weapons and Pierre Sprey was adamantly against guided weapons.Remember, Chud, your "smart weapons" don't work! Because... just because!
>>64180358>no usable antitank sensor yet proposed It so hilarious to read in the year of 4K drone videos compilations of fried Russian armor
>>64180363I've only just noticed the>*accuracyFootnoteThat's like saying the only way to fight is with 6-guns in Clint Eastwood style because of the "superior accuracy" of Wild West quickdraw shooting stunts>>64180363The worst part is that Sprey was saying this to kill the Maverick missile which was being fielded in FR Germany at the time. He straight up LIED and claimed that tests showed the weapon was totally inaccurate.And then was nowhere to be found after 1991.But suddenly popped up again in the 00s claiming to some kind of expertise on combat jets, including taking credit for the A-10's performance in Desert Storm... which was because they used the very same missile he said didn't work!
>>64180363>4K drone videosFucking imbecile
>>64180378>he doesn't know about DJI recon drones
>>64178325But they're also building F-35s faster than any other country can put together their cheaper and less advanced aircraft.
>>64180283Actually I was wrong and misremembered they did take off from the mainland but they had Port Stanley Airport (not RAF Mount Pleasant which wasn't even built yet) open and available as a diversion base if say theoretically they had to get in an extended air engagement and burn a lot of fuel or in another purely theoretical exercise if a Mirage IIIE piloted by Capt.Cuerva of Air Grupo 8 was damaged by a sidewinder missile at 4:10 pm on May 1st 1982 and diverted to Port Stanley. As to why they weren't actually stationed there it wasn't because the runway was some tiny zambian dirt airstrip it was a pristine 4,000ft tarmac runway designed for narrow body jet airliners. The reason they didn't operate fast jets from it was because it only had a small apron for at best a handful of jets and was an overall very cramped for combat operations. You don't want extremely valuable fighter aircraft sitting tightly packed together along with fuel trucks, starter carts, etc. on an apron. Literally 6 hours before the may 1st air battle Sea Harriers shwacked the apron and other base facilities with BL-755 cluster bombs and Vulcan bombing raids on Argentinian positions in the Falklands were announced like a week before this point.Capcha HPH82
>>64178325>Ironically their advice would have been fairly sensible to Nazi Germany (and would have gotten them purged as well),Absolute brainlet.They literally kept on pumping out their early war shit boxes because that's what Pappi Hitler bestellt hat.So the Fighter Mafia would have to suggest switching all of their arrament out for Mg34s or something.
>>64178325This.The Fighter Mafia assumed war was war and you fight in a slugfest where you need a combination of both quality and quantity. But the American MIC runs on the assumption of "I win, they lose, why worry?" It's the same retardation that produces high tech trash like the Armata. In peacetime they're impressive, but in a real war they're useless because you can't risk them getting destroyed in high numbers. An irreplaceable weapon is a useless weapon.
>>64180552>Comparing American weapons to the ArmataSo are you just an idiot or is there a more dishonest reason for this post.
>>64180552The Fighter Mafia assumed "real war" would be piloted aircrafts doing gun runs against enemy aircrafts and tanks. That gunfighting concept completely absolutely flopped in The Real war. >>64179977Guns don't work in The Real War.
>>64180563The entire reason why the Armata isn't being used is because they can't be replaced in an attritional warfare scenario.
>>64180589The reason they aren't being used is because they aren't even capable of deploying on parade without breaking down, they aren't a functional weapon
>>64180593Nice hyperbolic fanfiction.
>>64180589>The entire reason why the Armata isn't being used is because russia can't make them even in peacetimeFTFY
>>64180595Mein negro, we literally saw that happen.https://abcnews.go.com/International/russias-newest-tank-stops-working-parade-rehearsal/story?id=30872959
>>64180589More like Russia can't make modern weapons to begin with, because they are markedly inferior to America.Even their dick-swinging missile tests carried out to try and intimidate other countries during the war have repeatedly ended up with the launch site exploding instead.
>>64180611>ONE INCIDENT>THAT MEANS ALL ARE NON-FUNCTIONALAgain, hyperbole.The Armata is indeed trash, but it does in fact 'function'. Your retardation is no different than vatniks who post>THE SERBS SHOT DOWN A STEALTH JET ONE TIME, LOL AT AMERICA
>>64178325>if the United States found itself on the losing end of an attritional total war where F-35s are being shot down faster than they can be replacedthe US has never fought a war like this in its entire existence besides MAYBE the Revolutionary Warand it most likely never willWe always have a huge logistical advantage and value soldier's lives over expensive materiel because keeping soldiers alive is good for morale and the only way we can ever lose a conventional war is if the home front gives up on it
>>64180625>This is the sound of a perfectly functional piece of equipment with no design problems whatsoeverhttps://youtube.com/shorts/_bT2MUtzOQQ?feature=shared
>>64180641USA fought such Air War that Fighter Mafia envisioned during WWII.Thunderbolts and Mustangs establishing air superiority over Germany but pew pew firing their guns. That was indeed Gorious Days if US and Fighter Mafia wants to replay it over and over, like Russian and their WWII victory parades.But Now think how this type of gunfighting warfare is applicable in The Real War in Ukraine.
>>64180655Don't forget that missilefags tried to push their own biased agenda in the 60's and it left the Phantom unable to properly dogfight with MIGs.Missiles have gotten a lot better obvious, but it always takes two to tango. Overconfident technological supremacists vs stubborn skeptics. A lot of the literature on the Reformers is biased and written by the 'winners', and the fact is Reformers did have some good points to make along with some bad ones.The Ukraine War has completely validated a lot of their concerns regarding technology. If you can't produce it at a reasonable rate, warfare just devolves. Even this whole drone war is a devolution, but of course now you'll get another crop of tech worshippers who think "human soldier bad, replace with drone" not realizing that every single decisive action during this war was undertaken by human operations with limited drone involvement - whether it's the push into Kharkov, the thunder runs, driving Russia from Kherson, or even the initial Russian defeat at Hostomel and Kiev. All done conventionally, but that's not the lesson that people will take because "drones have revolutionized warfare" is the more interesting narrative.
>>64180697>KharkovKursk, excuse me, mixing up the names.
>>64180697>Don't forget that missilefags tried to push their own biased agenda in the 60's and it left the Phantom unable to properly dogfight with MIGs.80% kills by Phantoms in Vietnam were missiles and Phantom fighters had 10:1 kill ratio against MiGs
>>64180708A design flaw is a design flaw and trying to push technology before it is ready is a bad idea.>BUT IT ALL WORKED OUTPilots didn't like it and wanted it changed, so it was changed. You're debating with people who actually used it.
>>64180697>Even this whole drone war is a devolutionDrone war is absolute technological supermasism. It's pure march of tech advancements over boomer primitive weapons. FPV killing tank is complexity and brains defeating sheer power.
>>64180713You are just parroting Russian propaganda>left the Phantom unable to properly dogfight with MIGs.Russian propaganda slogan sounds completely different when you look at actual air war combat stats.
>>64180728>You are just parroting Russian propagandaProjection. It's historical record that "The Phantom suffered from issues due to being designed solely around missiles, and the design was later changed." There were cases when the Phantom ran out of missiles and could not dog fight. This was bad. This does not mean the Phantom was inherently bad, the missiles never worked, or anything else. "Missile only fighter planes" were simply not appropriate for the 1960's. The technology was not mature, and there were obvious problems.None of this has to due with "America bad, Russia great". It has everything to do with technologists that are overeager.>>64180719Drones can't take or hold territory. It's just nu-Bomber Mafia.
>>64180746>look at 20% it's more important that 80%You can't analyze stats.>Drones can't take or hold territory Neither fighter aircrafts, tanks, APCs , all weapon system Reformers were concerned about.
>>64180769>WHAT DO YOU MEAN PILOTS WOULD PREFER NOT TO BE SHOT DOWN DUE TO BEING OUT OF MISSILES? JUST LOOK AT THE STATS OF ALL THE CASES WHERE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN!This isn't a black or white issue. The Phantom can have great stats while also having a glaring design flaw.
>>64180775Guns were deeply secondary and overemphasizing their worth don't achieve anything.When having edge in missiles was winning wars>>64179962And now we have Ukrainian war where aircraft gun is totally dead. Total Missile Mafia Victory.
>>64180785>Guns were deeply secondary and overemphasizing their worth don't achieve anything.Who is overemphasizing them? You or me? All I did was say that you shouldn't overly rely on technology before it is ready. You are repeating tired kneejerk talking points of "everything was fine, there were no problems, just look at the favorable statistics and ignore what actually happened where the problem was reported, agreed it was a problem, and solved".Missiles are a very useful technology, now. In the 1960's they had problems. This should not be a controversial opinion, but this is what the whole anti-Reformer movement is. Ignore skepticism and criticism, full speed ahead on everything, ignore when you fail and only point to where you succeed. And it's going to get people killed when an actual war starts and both the US and China lose all their high tech fighters in the first month and we're reduced to some stupid naval version of what's currently going on in Ukraine. Does this mean the F-35 is bad? Should be replaced by the F-16 with more upgrades than it deserves? No. Maybe have a really nice high tech plane, but also have a low cost plane that you can shit out by the hundreds.
>>64180794>Who is overemphasizing them? You or me?You.Mirage III had excellent gunsBut it had large design flaw, it's missiles were inferior to Harrier missiles and Mirage flopped.Where is that fact in your analysis I ask?>Missiles are a very useful technology, now. In the 1960's they had problems. And way to go was improving them see sad Mirages who where yapping about guns but forgot about missiles.And that overemphasizing on guns got Argentinas killed and losing when an actual war started.
>>64180746>It's historical record that "The Phantom suffered from issues due to being designed solely around missiles, and the design was later changed." There were cases when the Phantom ran out of missiles and could not dog fight. This was bad. This does not mean the Phantom was inherently bad, the missiles never worked, or anything else. "Missile only fighter planes" were simply not appropriate for the 1960'sExcept that the main reason for the Phantom performing badly was that American fighter pilots weren't trained well in air to air combat.See, in statistical social studies, there's a very important concept called "effect size". TL;DR, it's about quantifying how much exactly a factor actually matters to the outcome. We use this because when there are many factors which all contribute to an outcome, we want to know which one is THE MOST IMPORTANT, the one which causes most of the problem.>do all races and genders commit murder? Yes>but 50% of them are committed by a particular 13% of the populationWhat you're doing is saying that the reason Phantoms couldn't dogfight Migs is because they didn't have guns, when that only mattered for like maybe 20% of the time. The far more important factor was pilot training. And ultimately after getting the training they needed, what did they use to shoot down 80% of the MIGs? MISSILES, not guns.And you're disingenuously hiding this behind the claim about the Phantom's design being changed. Was it changed? Yes. Did it matter? Nowhere near as much as training programmes such as Top Gun.
>>64180697>Reformers did have some good points to make along with some bad onesThe only good point that ever came out of their shit mouths was the OODA loop and the strategy to disrupt it.>The Ukraine War has completely validated a lot of their concerns regarding technologyThe only thing the Ukraine War validated is that if you don't prepare an army before the war you're in deep shit, and you're forced to use WW1 tactics and whatever you can beg or scrounge or repurpose from civilian use in the short time you have. That's it.The real answer to this isn't "let's build more shells like it's 1915 not 2025", it's prepare the army even if there doesn't appear to be a war, because a war will pop up faster than you can see it coming. (Arguably, a war pops up BECAUSE enemies see that you're unprepared, but that's another story, strictly speaking)
>>64180846>What you're doing is saying that the reason Phantoms couldn't dogfight Migs is because they didn't have guns, when that only mattered for like maybe 20% of the time. The far more important factor was pilot training. And ultimately after getting the training they needed, what did they use to shoot down 80% of the MIGs? MISSILES, not guns.NTA, but to add on to this 2/3 of VPAF aces of the war piloted MiG-21 variants which either had an anemic gun or none at all. The vast majority of their kills were made with Soviet copies of the Sidewinder in hit and run attacks. Unless you think the Nguyens have +10 in accuracy stat missiles obviously worked in Vietnam. you just have to know how to actually use them effectively.
>>64180746>Drones can't take or hold territoryDesign problems require design solutions.
>>64180708What percentage of air to air missiles fired during the conflict hit their target? How did that number change over time? I genuinely don't know, and it could very well prove the thesis that it was pilot training.
>>64180648I have personally seen cartel victims scream less horribly than the Armata.
>>64178325The point of the high unit cost F-35 is that you DON'T attritYour argument is like "Well sure guns are good but if you run out of ammo and up in extremely close quarters melee combat the man with the sword and shield will probably win out, so our soldiers should only carry those."
>>64180846> Except that the main reason for the Phantom performing badly was that American fighter pilots weren't trained well in air to air combatAlso, the retards in charge forcing them to close to visual range because they didn’t trust IFF
>>64180846>Except that the main reason for the Phantom performing badly was that American fighter pilots weren't trained well in air to air combat.It's really notable that by the time Operation Linebacker kicked off the Airforce had already equipped their F-4's with gunpods based on their prior experiances, and they still got clowned on compared to the Navy who were running missile only Phantoms at the time. Made worse since the Navy didn't have the early IFF systems the Airforce Phantoms had. It just came down to the Navy Had implemented Top Gun (DAAAANGER ZONE) to address their pilots lousy combat proficiency levels, and the airforce hadn't yet. >>64179859>Also, I think another aspect is the Vietnam War's lingering cynicism.>The irony is that US military itself saw the problemMore specificially it tended to be Vietnam Vets who'd actually flown hundreds of combat missions, and hadn't just seen the problems but experianced them first hand and were trying to unfuck them after the war. But that made them "establishment". So guys who'd never served or seen combat decided that they prefered "experts" like the Reformers (who predominantly had never served and none of whom had seen combat) to advise on what the Air-Force needed. So a lot of the cynicism in practice was very vibes based.>Pic related: Creech's somberly repressing his horror when he realizes just how much tard wrangling he's in for
>>64181252>the retards in charge forcing them to close to visual range because they didn’t trust IFFThere were nothing retarded about that. Out of 10000 flights you meet maybe 1 MiG. You absolutely couldn't afford wrong ID of you planes as enemy planes. With interrogation IFF it happens. Signal lost during transmission, electromagnetic interference, non working equipment. Bam! You aircraft didn't send response, marked as enemy and shot down. Bad. This Vietnam experience pushed for development non co-operative IFF systems. TISEO, radar profile ID, tracking friendlies trajectory via AWACS etc.BTW Soveits never bothered with any of such and believed that interrogation IFF is fine (like US mil before Vietnam).
>>64181353Something else that comes to mind is how universal were IFF transponders on American and in theater allied aircraft in this period? Cause shooting down half the RVNAF in friendly fire incidents sounds decidedly counter productive.
>>64181252IFF at the time *was* notoriously glitchy tbf
>>64179429More like they weren't entirely wrong about the F-16 despite being wrong about the F-15
>>64181679The F-16 only became good when it went directly against the ethos of reformers and became heavier and more complex.
On that note: the F-16 was almost exactly half the price of the F-15Do you think that the "hi-lo mix" was a successful cost-saving measure, in the end?Would NATO have been better off with notionally having half the number of F16s, but they're actually F15s?
>>64178325>>64178325>Ironically their advice would have been fairly sensible to Nazi Germany (and would have gotten them purged as well), which is probably where they're approaching it from.Absolutely retarded take, and completely untrue. Quality was the ONLY way Germany could've lengthened it's existence. Germany was down on manpower compared to its enemies and struggling to replace experienced pilots and tank crews alike. Empty tanks don't kill anyone, and tanks filled with untrained children won't do much better. Secondly, with what fuel would Germany have fielded these fleets of simple-and-cheap tanks? they were struggling to supply their armored columns as it were. Going for quality to try to maximize the effectiveness of their units compared to the enemy was the ONLY way to try to survive
>>64181749Only because the program had drawn out too long into the late 70s, it got caught in a weird middle ground where it initially wasn't yet a true multirole and lacked BVR capability in the fighter role, but it was still to heavy and complicated for what the reformers had initially envisioned.Doesn't mean the idea of the High/Low mix of fighters was inherently flawed, if not for the reasons the reformers advocated for it.
>>64178325There is no neer peer and there never has been.
>>64181830NTA but if Germany had gone for quality above all else then it wouldn't have fielded any Bf109s in the late war, only Fw190s, and it would thus have completely lost the air war by 1943.In 1944 they built 14,000 Bf109s and half that number of Fw190s.
>>64181870Production of Bf109's had no effect on the production of the Fw190's. Daimler Benz didn't have the tooling to start producing BMW 801's, they couldn't have started to produce them if they wanted, especially during the war. The fighter production was limited by engine availability, after all.
>>64178325>let's replace our expensive but very capable and hard to shoot down fighters with cheaper less capable versions which are easier to shoot down because we cannot replace them fast enough!!Hmmm
>>64181959RightAnd that is why>Quality was the ONLY way Germany could've lengthened it's existenceis a silly statementYou can't immediately discontinue Bf109 use and switch over entirely to Fw190sAlso, speaking of>fuelSimilarly, the Luftwaffe eked out its fuel supplies with 87 octane rather than only using 96/100 octane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
>>64182556>Can't figure out why you might want more than an HMG/unstabilized 20mm on your troop carrier facing the Soviets in Europe>It can't be because I'm stupid/uninformed, it must be because the procurement officers are corrupt and incompetent! >The infantry should just fend for themselves after their battle taxi drops them off in front of a Tank Guards Army and goes home
>mandick posts in a reformer threadwhat are the implications of this?
>>64180697>Don't forget that missilefags tried to push their own biased agenda in the 60's and it left the Phantom unable to properly dogfight with MIGs.The biggest problem the Phantom had against MiGs was the VPAF sending its MiGs across the border where there was no radar coverage, and coming in from behind to attack Phantoms escorting bombing runs. The high speed passes made it difficult for Phantoms to catch up, let alone maneuver for a gun kill if they had a gun.Some other issues:>pilots were often firing missiles outside of parameters and needed extra training>Navy started a Sidewinder upgrade program before the war so the USAF entered the conflict with a shitty AIM-9 but the Navy had better luck>The USAF Sparrows worked better than the Navy ones because carrier ops lead to AIM-7s being slammed with each landing and being left on the deck getting exposed to sea sprayWhile the missile tech wasn't ready for prime-time, it wouldn't be criticized as much if they had the benefit of hindsight and didn't need a real conflict to expose the bad practices
>>64181329>by the time Operation Linebacker kicked off the Airforce had already equipped their F-4's with gunpods based on their prior experiances, and they still got clowned on compared to the Navy who were running missile only Phantoms at the timeActually by 1972-1973 the USAF Phantoms scored a greater kill ratio than Navy ones. The actual difference maker was the Nakhon Phanom Royal Thai Air Base control center which gave USAF combat air patrols improved situational awareness due to radar coverage and SIGINT on North Vietnamese comms.
So the people claiming corruption were both autistic AND actively corrupt in that they were accepting money from a foreign power to work against their own?
>>64183847By 1973 you're a fair bit past the early stages of Linebacker 1 where the USAF had some time to correct some of the bigger tactical problems. There generally were a lot of legitimate readiness issues stemming from the USAF at the time buying into the concept of universal pilots (who could be swapped interchangibly between different aircraft types rather than specializing), and combat exercises being overly safety oriented/done by rote and generally not involving assymetrical aircraft matchups. That tended to be the biggest problem for Phantom Pilots when they ended up in dog fights with Mig-21s. Sprey's masterbatory obsession with the F-5 was stupid, but there was a good reason they got used by the Air-Force so extensively in Aggressor Squadrons after Vietnam. >>64185965To be fair I don't think the Reformers were ever actually on a KGB payroll or anything like that. For one thing they were already doing the Kremlin's work for free. And they already had plenty of organic support from pundits/politicians who wanted cold war defense spending rolled back. I think the breakup of the Soviet Union is just as big of a reason for their fall from mainstream credability as Gulf War 1 making them look stupid. The ensuing post cold war peace dividends made them kinda irrelevent. Sprey showing up on Russia Today is less he's an FSB asset and more he was a grumpy old man who missed the days when more important people took him seriously.
>>64187661> Sprey's masterbatory obsession with the F-5 was stupidCounterpoint, they’re cute and funny.
>>64187672>Counterpoint, they’re cute and funny.Factually correct statement.
>>64187661in general giving someone the feeling of legitimacy can be a lot more valuable than direct payments
>>64178264Americans low key love to be contrarian. If everyone says to go right we can't help but want to go left. Combine that with Ego and the inability to adapt to constantly evolving technology and you get these neo-luddites that are more useful as unwitting counter-intelligence assets than military thinkers.
>>64187661Right before he died, Sprey formed a lobbying group with Ben Cohen of Ben and Jerry's ice cream that was created to peddle Russian propaganda to try and cut off Ukraine from US aid.https://vtdigger.org/2023/03/20/vermont-nonprofit-founded-by-ice-cream-magnate-ben-cohen-opposes-u-s-support-for-ukraine/Why Ben and Jerrys you may ask? Because they're based in Vermont, and Vermont was the first National Guard unit to be equipped with F-35s.https://vtdigger.org/2013/05/31/former-fighter-jet-designer-voices-concern-over-f-35/So if it's any consolation, Pierre Sprey died seething. Just as he had lived.
>>64187718>in general giving someone the feeling of legitimacy can be a lot more valuable than direct paymentsSure. But even that would be generally redundant. I think people primarily familiar with the Reformers as internet lol-cows don't quite get how much mainstream pseudo credability they had in the 80's. Soviet spooks trying to cultivate them directly as assets would have been both unnecessary and probably too risky given the fairly high profile they had for a time.Im also not sure the Soviets would have been inclined to think people like the Reformers could be useful. Keep in mind they projected their own internal government dynamics onto the US. Everytime some wacko took a shot at a US president the KGB's first guess was that the CIA was staging a coup. I'm not sure they'd believe that some randos could talk the US government into abandoning the use of modern weaponry on the basis of the alleged superiority of 30+ year old gear being better.
>>64187973>Sprey spent his final years mainly reduced to a NIMBY advocate Man. That is hilarious levels of seething.
>>64187672Admittidly watching the F-20 zap Mig-21's out of the sky in Area-88 is pretty comfy. It is funny to think the Reformers hyping it up so much might have been an indirect reason for it to eventually become a staple in Jap plane media going into Ace Combat.
>>64183808Another thing not mentioned ITT is that US ROE required visual ID of enemy aircraft. Sparrow were capable of front aspect kills from 6+ nautical miles allowing pilots to turn a tiny dot in their reflector glass into a single grain of fried rice the ROE kneecapped any potential proto-BVR.
>>64189364wait it was mentioned I'm a retard
>>64189364>That top left comicNot far from reality but that makes this all the better a photo to make Sprey spin in his grave.
>>64179859I do like how they blamed the missiles and planes rather than the fact that the US refused the SEAD the fucking Zipperheads for political reasons, because having some Rusky "advisor" get splatted in an active warzone would result in nukes flying or something. Despite the fact we know they had been flying for the Jugheads in Korea and flew combat missions for the Gooks as well. You'd think it would be open season on commies but nope.
>>64189226Would have been better than flying F-4s and 5s until the heat death of the universe but the F-16 is better at everything other than being a cheap shit-bucket which can operate from a relatively flat strip of road.
>>64178264it was not until the developement of large scale integrated circuits circa 1980 that electronics became reliable. These boomers grew up with primitive computers that were the composed not of one or even several chips but of several large hand made circuit boards. So they were correct, in the context of 1960s technology.
>>64181830>Quality was the ONLY way Germany could've lengthened it's existencewhere did this ever come from?germany never focused on quality, their entire industry was focused on sheer number just like everyone elsequality-over-quantity vehicles like the tiger were limited production specialist vehiclesthe panzer IV and the stug III were their most produced vehicles because their focus was on quantity not qualitythe panther was the only time they sort-of wanted to focus on quality, but quantity was still a major factor, its design was easier to weld than a panzer
>>64189364But anon there could be a zigger in that Mig you need to fly up to him and exchange a wave to check the color of his hands.
>>64179977>There were zero gun fights bettwen fighter aircrafts in this warAn ukie helicopter was shot down by 30 mm from a SU-30 early in the war.
>>64188071oh yeah i don't mean back then specifically, just in general and with him showing up on RT now.
>>64183247>>Can't figure out why you might want more than an HMG/unstabilized 20mm on your troop carrier facing the Soviets in EuropeThe only ground based weapon system that NATO can produce in bulk today is the MRAP armored car armed with a manually aimed unstabilized 12.7 mm heavy machine gun. Its like its 1925 again.
>>64180785>totally deadno, they use them against shahsneeds. I think that type of drone gives territorial defense fighters a reason to still mount guns. Dead weight on a air superiority fighter since most engagements are now BVR but it's probably worth a variant on a second echelon fighter like the F-15. >>64180864This so much. People are badly learning the wrong lesson from this war. This is what it looks like when your overwhelming force doesn't work. You should not prepare to fight a war like this because even if you win, you lost. This is even worse than the US morass wars in 'nam, Iraq II and Afghanistan. This is very, very similar to Iran-Iraq which was catastrophic for all parties involved. You shouldn't focus on how you manage losses, you should focus on playing to crush.
>>64189682>no, they use them against shahsneeds. Not anymore. They lost at least 5 planes and pilots due to the drone's blast radius (flying into the debris cloud). Including the guy who originally came up with the idea of using prop trainers against shasneeds.
>>64189692I guess they gotta stay further back then
>>64180713>Pilots didn't like it and wanted it changed, so it was changed.Are you referring to the USAF F-4E which were outperformed by gunless F-4?
>>64183847>by 1972-1973 the USAF Phantoms scored a greater kill ratio than Navy onesAlmost exclusively with missiles.
>>64189703>I guess they gotta stay further back thenThe problem is that the top speed of a Shahed is 115mph. That's a lot lower than the speed when a fighter Jet starts stalling. Going for guns is kind of innately at odds with keeping a safe distance from that kind of target. There's a reason Ukie pilots only do it as a desperation move after they're out of missiles and there are still sha-sneeds barreling towards some commie block. Budget drone spam certainly validates bringing back guns for air-defense, but high performance jets are kind of an iffy platform to put them on for drone hunting. For that you want a shit load of budget missiles...or if you're improving some enthuiastic slavs with PK's and a turboprop/helicopter.
>>64187973Oh wow. is this a Zigger front group? I'm on their youtube page, and a recent video is just a list of Z talking points:>CIA coup>Zelensky is not legitimate>western weapons are the main barrier to peace>Ukrainian nazism>US-NATO wanted a proxy war against >8 years of assaults in donbass resulted in Russian response>USA lied and invaded Iraq too>Ukraine's army is a slaughter house >Ukraine needs new men>the west has a cost sunk fallacy and refuses peace>small arms have been diverted throughout the world>Ukraine is 2 years into the war "with half their army dead or missing" >Zelensky arrests for free speech and journalism, shuts down political parties and churches, >Ukraine wants to blow up the Zaporishia nuclear plant to create more devestation>western arms prolong the war and make it more difficult for peace Everyone might as well have been delivered by Putin himself.
>>64189787Ah, I saw>Including the guy who originally came up with the idea of using prop trainers against shasneeds.And thought they were blowing themselves up somehow even with slow prop planes. Definitely a big opportunity for IR-guided hyras.
>>64189847>Oh wow. is this a Zigger front group?it was established by the People Power Initiatives, which is another lobbying group founded by Ben (plus some guy named Richard Foos) to fund some of his personal political agendas. Honestly surprising how deep this guy is in zigger propaganda, i'd figure he'd at least be more of a pussified liberal type. Probably has something to do with Vermont politics.
>>64190104That's pretty standard KGB-FSB style tactics. Ben Cohen doesn't necessarily have to be co-opted or even aware that he's been targeted. He may think of himself as a patriot doing the right thing. But they find people with viewpoints and grievances, and they exploit that. It's super easy for someone who's an old anti-war type to fall for these things. USA is this great evil imperial power and we need to fight against it to protect innocent people. Sounds straight forward right?A lot of celebs are pretty mushy and lack critical thinking skills or know how to sus through propaganda.
>>64190127There was some book that was posted on /k/ a few years ago that covered this. It was about KGB guys trying to sway Americans and reaching out to disaffected left wingers to spread propaganda, even getting their material printed in magazines and newspapers. For Cohen, it may be that he's unaware and just has this associate who's super helpful and informative who is low key FSB agent. There's a LOT of people in USA who are unregistered foreign agents who should be charged for this crime but are left to do whatever they want. Or the Russians just flood left wing spaces with enough propaganda, so that people like Cohen consume it and consider it normal.Ignore rhetoric, and keep going "who benefits from these policies?" and you'll see a lot of far left and far left positions conveniently result in benefitting Russia despite opposite ideological stances. Russia creates different narratives for different people and ends on the same end-goal.
>>64190104ziggers have always worked both ends of the horseshoe
>>64180358>>NO USABLE ANTITANK SENSOR YET PROPOSEDThe best part is that Burton made that slide YEARS after the Israelis and Iranians had used AGM-65 Mavericks to destroy tanks in two unrelated conflicts.
>>64180391Not in the multipolars' minds they're not.
Nobody on the internet knows fucking shit about procurement.
>>64189649>manually aimed unstabilized
>>64180697>The Ukraine War has completely validated a lot of their concerns regarding technology.Reminder: a mere four HIMARS were enough to kneecap the entire Russian army
>>64189787>For that you want a shit load of budget missiles..Or you want trainable 12.7mm gun pods fornket fighters. So fighter can make slow pass above and behind target staying outside possible fragmentation and debris angles, come close without fear of collisions with target and debris (because you aren't flying directly into target like with fixed guns) and potentially gun pod aimed by fire control can have much better pointing accuracy.
>>64189703That the same problem was one Spitfires trying to intercept V-1 with guns.From safe range they couldn't hit such small target, from range they could hit they were flying into debris cloud after explosion.https://youtube.com/shorts/_I26hZX10Vk
>>64190275>>manually aimed unstabilizedThats a rare one... and it is in Afghanistan, where it still is, abandoned to the Taliban. What you get in Ukraine are MRAPs with the most basic hand aimed .50 cal. There is simply no productive capability to outfit thousands of MRAPs with anything better.
>>64187973>Ben and Jerry's ice cream is zigger nowThat's the wildest takeaway I'm getting from this>>64185965>>64187661Sprey was basically just Mike Sparks given an undeserved platform by the same anti-war media that gave us Pentagon WarsYou will want to puke reading his obituary coverage in the press
>>64190606Could it be due to the convergence distance limiting them too? Didn't spitfires halfway through the war have convergence distances as low as 150m?
>>64189604>needs 1 hour’s refuelingDoes it really take an hour to fuel an Abrams? The Army must have hamster-operated pumps.>filter cleaningIsn’t the process of filter cleaning simply “press button, rev engine, receive clean filter”?
>>64190601Retvrn to schrage muzak
>>64180547>They literally kept on pumping out their early war shit boxes because that's what Pappi Hitler bestellt hat.No. You're right in that the kind of stuff the reformers would've given Hitler would be shit, but that's not why Germany kept cranking out the shitboxes.The actual reasons are "nuanced" (retarded) and "complicated" (highly autistic) but are best summed up as:-Meddling, not just from the mustache man but from shit as asinine as the individual company heads and designers egos' clashing-Entangling production in stupid politics, both internal (different branches fighting each other) and external (In spite of being Dogshit the ME 210 production deal with Hungary just couldn't be canceled because it was being used as a carrot for loyalty, for example) as well as corporate-Confused / reactionary decisions in doctrine resulting in no solid planning-Didn't have the resources or time to even retool, even if they wanted to.
>>64190289What?
>>64190705First conversation distance cancel be set any distance.Second conversation distance is overrated. Guns didn't fired like laser beams, they had large dispersionvand at extended ranges you just spray bullets around large circles
>>64189692no :(5 Yak-52s were destroyed by being caught in the blast radius of drones? bummer. I find old prop trainers neat and Yak-52 being used for air defense in the year of our lord 2025 (or any year since its creation really) was so strange it tickled me especially the reports of them having air gunners in the other cockpit. Its like if British defense cuts hit too hard and the Next Generation Strategic White Paper for anti-drone warfare was for an old recently recommissioned RAF pilot with a pintman belly and a leather flying cap to fly up close to a suicide drone in a de Havilland Chipmunk and order his 15 year old air cadet to open up with a Browning M2 on an experience flight. This news is no longer whimsical if true.
>>64190806I believe most of them were F-16 lost during gun attacks against Shaheeds.
>>64190876that's reassuring
>>64180708>Phantom fighters had 10:1 kill ratio against MiGsWhere did you get this figure?Phantom struggled to achieve 2:1 K:D against MiGs in Vietnam initially. By end they were pushing towards 4:1 as an average.The only way you'll ever get a 10:1 K:D is if you exclude the USAF which is down to where the USN gets at one point a 12:1 K:D
>>64190909That stat if you count losses of Phantoms doing fighter missions (CAP etc) vs Migs losses.Most air combat Phantoms losses were Phantoms doing bomber missions.
>>64190772>First conversation distance cancel be set any distance.Has anyone really been far?
>>64178325>Ironically their advice would have been fairly sensible to Nazi Germany (and would have gotten them purged as well), which is probably where they're approaching it from.Nah, not even the nazis at their lowest were dumb enough to go full reformer, the fucking Volksjäger at least had an ejection seat in comparison to their retarded ideas
>>64190154Ben and Co have also been outright tankies for the longest time
>>64190275What is this kaki shed? Is that a standard issued kit? It looks a bit like a foldable construct.
>>64179977Guided missiles like the Falcon and Sparrow didn't work in Spey's time
>>64190759Russia's giant tube artillery park (i.e. ""rugged and affordable"" systems) got Got by one-third(!) of a battery of HIMARS firing GMLRS (i.e. ""too complex and expensive"" smart weapons).
>>64190643I can smell the Ganges water on your keyboard from here.
>>64179977>Main anti tank weapon of fighting sides is FPV drones and ATGMsmisdiagnosed>>64180697> "drones have revolutionized warfare" is the more interesting narrative.sorta true, but drones are still proliferated now.People talk a lot about drone warfare, but I want to add what an actual cohesive report on the war is saying. picrel, Tactical Developments from the Third Year of the Ukraine War, by Watling and Reynolds, p. 12So many people are just armchair bloviating about drones. The war was an attritional stalemate BEFORE mass drone distribution, not because of it. Drones are not the invincible threat armchair commenters portray, which will be the exclusive form of war in the future, and war still needs combined arms. Glide bombs, one of the main Russian weapons right now, are launched from Su fighters behind the lines. Tanks and APCs are, despite armchair claims of obsolescence, are still wanted in the field. You are far more vulnerable legging it to a trench from a drone, than in an APC.
>>64194553>Glide bombs, one of the main Russian weapons right nowAre type of drones too.
>>64178325there has been no demonstration how drone spam holds up against a proper air force that can successfully suppress the enemies air defense and air force for air superiority. All BBC POCCCIII can do is spam glide bombs from safe rear distance or terrorize random civilian apartment blocks Ukraine-vatnikstan war is a peer to peer war without none of that. thus it has devolved into a stalemate while the iran-israel war was over faster then it could have started with da seven million joos sodomizing the 90 million iranians in their own air space
>>64190601>Or you want trainable 12.7mm gun pods fornket fighters.Don't you think 12.7 will have even worse range than 30mm anon?
>>64194750No I don't think so. With such small target as Shaheed you will hit limits of effective range because of gun dispersion before ballistic advantage of 30mm would matter. And destructive effect wise 30mm is clear overkill
>>64194795>destructive effect wise 30mm is clear overkillNo it isn't 30mm airburst is more effective than 50cal fmj
>>64194800Fighter guns don't have airburst rounds.And those cost $1000 per round.
>>64194831They don't but they can, easily>those cost $1000 per roundA Shasneed costs more than the two dozen or so airburst shells needed to blow them out of the sky
>>64194858Point is with trainable 12.7mm gun pod you can down intereception cost to about $400-800 engaging from 300 meters or so. And have 10-20 stowed kills per gun pod. It's kinda "final solution for the Shaheeds question".
>>64178325>Ironically their advice would have been fairly sensible to Nazi GermanyBf109 was already "cheap" and it needed constant upgrades of a bigger engine, a faster airframe and better guns and ammunition to compete. The Fw190 was very advanced and heavily armed despite not being that expensive.US WW2 planes were expensive but had the longest range, fastest speeds, and highest ceilings at a very high reliability and survivability and lots of crew training hours.The fighter mafia advice would have been a disaster for anyone in WW2 and it was a disaster for Russia.
>>64180375>*accuracy>Footnote>That's like saying the only way to fight is with 6-guns in Clint Eastwood style because of the "superior accuracy" of Wild West quickdraw shooting stuntsHit&Kill probability at 1.5s popup engagement.Accuracy isn't the best term to choose, but boomers didn't like to pull out the thesaurus. But I appreciate that he's intentionally differentiating from a rounds hit/fired normal definition. Although reformers tend to obsess over the bean counting cost savings.
>>64190154>>64193613>>64187973>Right before he died, Sprey formed a lobbying group with Ben Cohen of Ben and Jerry's ice cream that was created to peddle Russian propaganda to try and cut off Ukraine from US aid.I wonder if the reformer ideas will make a full circle just like the kung-flu conspiracies did and end up in russiaSeems absurd that they would get high on their own supply but with their "tank is a tank" rhetoric and lack of access to modern components they actually might fall for it>inb4 russias sixth-gen fighter will be the Pierre Sprey Special
If you believe that air combat revolves around fighting for tail position to engage with guns or rear aspect AAMs, then it does make a lot of sense to prioritise producing numerous and agile fighters.Numbers and energy maneuverability are key factors that determine the fight in the merge, especially prior to the introduction of agile all aspect AAMs like the AIM-9L or R-60M.This perception among the fighter mafia was a result of over focusing on the experience in early Vietnam, being ignorant of the lessons learned and applied in late Vietnam and having a poor grasp of where the technology was going as opposed to where it was.The actual applied solution that was realised in late Vietnam was improving situational awareness using AEWC and NCTR, to allow US pilots to engage bandits with long range all aspect missiles and to enable information dominance to control engagements.If in early Vietnam the VPAF could pick and choose favourable ambush engagements using ground sensors and CGI, at the end the tables had been flipped and US fighter escorts had their own flying sensors that could direct them to Bandits wherever they were.This was the start of the move of air combat towards a large organised system of sensors and shooters and away from seat of the pants, mk.1 eyeball combat like the Mustang or Sabre pilots of yore.On top of this you have the introduction of all aspect AAMs in the late 1970s that made performance in the merge considerably less vital, even within the context of WVR.Now instead of being forced to fight for tail position, you could just shoot your enemy in the face.British Harriers in the Falklands war used this advantage to completely dominate the Argentine aircraft, despite frankly not being very kinematically impressive themselves.
>>64195297>On top of this you have the introduction of all aspect AAMs in the late 1970s that made performance in the merge considerably less vital, even within the context of WVR.Now instead of being forced to fight for tail position, you could just shoot your enemy in the face.British Harriers in the Falklands war used this advantage to completely dominate the Argentine aircraft, despite frankly not being very kinematically impressive themselves.actually they fired exclusively in rear aspect in the falklands despite having the capability
>>64194726>"7.62 moves in the air along a guided route to a target using optics. A 7.62 cartridge is actually a propelled autonomous drone platform."Glide bombs were literally invented in WW2.
>>64195755>>"7.62 moves in the air along a guided route to a target using optics.No its not. Ballistics projectiles like 7.62 round fly by predetermined ballistic trajectory established at launch.>Glide bombs were literally invented in WW2.This doesn't make guided glide bombs less of the drones. Also dont forget smart bombs >>64180358 dont work. Reformers said so. Only guns work.
>>64178264>I'm watching this video and it seems like beyond John Boyd and his energy theory, everyone in the Figher Mafia was certifiably retarded. It seems like they had these boomer 'tech no work' mindset in the 90sThe F-16 and F-15 were developed in the 1970's, and back then the existing long-range radar guided missiles were dogshit. Sparrows were notoriously unreliable and Sidewinders were mostly what actually scored kills after failed sparrow shots.Their criticism of overreliance on unreliable technology, speed and range over manoeuvrability was well founded.Their legacy lives on to this day in the F-22 which has enormous control surfaces and thrust vectoring for impressive manoeuvrability which is mostly not needed and a luxury, but it only became that legitimately decades after the fighter mafia prime time. >How does one continue to double down despite overwhelming evidence saying otherwise?What evidence? None of these weapons was ever really war tested. A handful of outdated MIGs iraqis had to hide under sand with basically untrained IQ90 pilots does not really constitute much of a test.
>>64195785Predetermined is just a matter of latency, bro. It's a guided drone.
A bit dubious to say that literally the most expensive fighter in the world that weighs as much as an F-111 is a product of reformer ideas.IIRC the high altitude agility requirements had more to do with kinematic missile defeat than ACM.
>>64195830>The F-16 and F-15 were developed in the 1970's, and back then the existing long-range radar guided missiles were dogshit.Actually Sparrows fried outside visual range were death rays. MiGs never knew what hit em.https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/combat-tree-an-apx-80-81-and-qrc-248.1028/
>>64179859>>64181329>>64189586I fucking hate McNamara and LBJ so fucking much. An Anon in another thread recommended Dereliction of Duty, and I still need to read it.
>>64195297>This perception among the fighter mafia was a result of over focusing on the experience in early Vietnam, being ignorant of the lessons learned and applied in late Vietnam and having a poor grasp of where the technology was going as opposed to where it was.>This was the start of the move of air combat towards a large organised system of sensors and shooters and away from seat of the pants, mk.1 eyeball combat like the Mustang or Sabre pilots of yore.That's really the core problem with the reformer's conception of air combat exclusively revolving around whatever John Boyd thought. As an experienced flight instructor/theoretician he arguably had a fairly strong qualification to talk about the technical aspects of dog fighting specifically. But it wasn't grounded with much practical combat experience in Korea compared to many of his contemporaries, and he didn't actually fly in Vietnam in any capacity. So his "expert" opinion of high tech fighters being junk was mostly based on 2nd/3rd hand impressions or hypothetical modeling. Not from the actual experience of combat pilots in Vietnam.>At one point, they invited John Boyd, now an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel, to brief the Top Gun instructors about his energy maneuverability charts. While energy maneuverability was by now a common buzzword in the air-to-air community, Boyd's briefing did not go well. Boyd, who had not flown for over five years, insisted it was impossible for an F-4 to win a dogfight with the highly maneuverable MiG-17. The Top Gun instructors disagreed (at least two had shot down MiG-17s in dogfights), but Boyd was adamant in saying it was impossible. >The Top Gun instructors left the briefing unimpressed by Boyd and his plethora of charts and graphs, the units commander, Commander Ron "Mugs" McKeown, said later: "never trust anyone who would rather kick your ass with a slide rule than with a jet."
>>64195176Reformerism could be summed up as "let's turn ourselves into a carbon copy of the Soviets but win for reasons". Russia can't fall for the Reformers' bullshit because the Reformers' bullshit IS Russia.
>>64178325>Ironically their advice would have been fairly sensible to Nazi Germany (and would have gotten them purged as well), which is probably where they're approaching it from.No, their advice would've been even more retarded back then, the Germans had no hope of matching the Allies' "decent" equipment production when it came to numbers so they went all in on trying to make the few vehicles that they could produce count
>>64178325That is the best stealman that can be done for them and even then leaving radars out of your "lows" is still fucking retarded.If you are taking so many losses attrition is your main concern your ground radars and AWACS are dying too.
>>64179651Come on now dont be laconic
>>64190652>now>founder named cohenBeen a shit company since the beginning. Remember when it was revealed pelosi was buying a bajillion dollars of bnj a day? >In March 2024, Cohen was one of several signatories of "A Statement From Jewish Americans Opposing AIPAC", a letter denouncing AIPAC's lobbying efforts in the United States government.[27]Huh wasnt expecting that. He also created a pierre sprey journo award lol
>>64178264Look at that honker, must be a like, explains why they are so retarded.
>>64202105Kike
>>64198853>Reformerism could be summed up as "let's turn ourselves into a carbon copy of the Soviets but win for reasons". Russia can't fall for the Reformers' bullshit because the Reformers' bullshit IS Russia.Anon, i meant lets mass produce the "blitzfighter" retarded
>>64198853Reformerism is actually>I don't know modern technology but I'm sure it won't work because IT JUST WON'T OKAYplus a good helping of>I don't know anything at all but I'll pretend to, for the adulation and the speaker contractsi.e. picrel>>64202163the Blitzfighter is what you get when your brain is permanently stuck on the Hawker Hunter / Super Sabre
>>64197376>Boyd's briefing did not go well. Boyd, who had not flown for over five years, insisted it was impossible for an F-4 to win a dogfight with the highly maneuverable MiG-17. The Top Gun instructors disagreed (at least two had shot down MiG-17s in dogfights), but Boyd was adamant in saying it was impossible.>The Top Gun instructors left the briefing unimpressed by Boyd and his plethora of charts and graphs, the units commander, Commander Ron "Mugs" McKeown, said later: "never trust anyone who would rather kick your ass with a slide rule than with a jet."Why the fuck would you argue against people that have flown actual combat missions against Vietnamese MiG's and won?>"You cant dogfight MiG-17's in F-4's">"But I did, I even shot them down">"Well you cant, it was just a fluke"
>>64202242Its just classic Dunning-Kruger effect caused by the fact that air combat moved onwards.
>>64202242>Why the fuck would you argue against people that have flown actual combat missions against Vietnamese MiG's and won?Boyd had been put in a teaching role I think during Korea, being told "Hey you're pretty good, go be an instructor," when in actuality it was probably because it was a job no one else wanted.Unfortunately, this ego-stroke of an explanation for taking him out of a combat role, along with being an instructor spending time from that point on smoking noobs in training, had given Boyd quite a bit of an ego and heat-treated it to mil-spec hardness.It was these things that formed the foundation of the myth that Boyd was some sort of dogfighting savant- and the fact that later on, increasingly, actual combat pilots contradicted him and the fact that the people up top also started ignoring him- this is what resulted in the reformers rallying around him. They borrowed his credibility and "his" ideas to talk to people outside who were laypeople and thus incapable of weaseling out their stupidity. In return, they continued to massage Boyd's ego, preserving him from the fact that in reality, he was just some schmuck put in a instructor role because no one else wanted it (and possibly because people in combat didn't want to deal with him).
>>64202242Probably less "it's impossible" and more "given pilots equally knowledgeable and skilled in EM theory, the F-4 has no EM advantage over the MiG-17 and no MiG-17 should be shot down by an F-4 in a sustained gunfight."
>>64181830>Secondly, with what fuel would Germany have fielded these fleets of simple-and-cheap tanks? they were struggling to supply their armored columns as it were.Prior to the US bombing Rumania's oil field and the Soviets overrunning them, the Germans had sufficed oil.
>>64181959>Daimler Benz didn't have the tooling to start producing BMW 801'sSays someone who has never set foot in a machine shop.
>>64203482Weird, I don't see the tooling in there to cast an engine block, or forge a set of pistons, or stamp a valve cover.
People aren't ready to acknowledge that the OODA loop is also a bullshit concept.
>>64203748as a dogfighting tactic, it's dated, but the general principle of acting faster than your opponent is what NATO manoeuvrist doctrine is founded on
>>64178325>we are loosing our hard to detect top of the line fighters>let's send in shitty, non stealthy fighters, preferably without a radar or missiles, instead lolIt's soviet tank doctrine applied to planes, except for a country that is not going to accept 90% loss rates for their military personal.
>>64202242>Why the fuck would you argue against people that have flown actual combat missionsThat's like 90% of high profile debates involving Reformers or reformer influenced lay persons.>>64202620Admittedly the fact that a Mig-17 had an advantage in a sustained dog fight against an F-4 due to it being more agile would be a bit of a "no shit sherlock" observation to Phantom pilots who'd actually fought against them in Vietnam. I think what the Top Gun instructors were interested in is what tactical insight Boyd could offer as to how they could mitigate/overcome that agility advantage in combat, and weren't impressed when he didn't have much to offer. Which maybe shouldn't have been surprising given that Boyd's alleged claim to fame in the air was as an instructor dabbing on rookie pilots in training at a time when the USAF Aggressor squadrons didn't use asymmetrical aircraft matchups. So I don't think he had anything practical to suggest to the Phantom pilots beyond "well according to the EM chart here you'll probably lose".
