how come italy doesn't make its own jet fighter, but instead relies on foreign partners? they can build ships just fine on their own. france does it, so why can't they?
>>64186867They're building the GCAP with the Bongs and Japs right now which is looking very promising compared to the FCAS of the frogs
>>64186880They also build the wings and a few other airframe components for the F-35 program.
>>64186880>>64186897exactly, it's all partnerships and joint programs. the rafale is entirely domestic, why can't they do the same?
>>64186867*ahem*
>>64187002The rafale is dogshit
>>64187002Because they're not retarded frogs?France is egotistical and unwilling to work with others cleanly because of it.France sees it as a point of national pride and is willing to pay out the ass for it. They're paying ~$160-185M per airframe (including initial R&D costs). Which is almost as much as the F-35A estimated cost, which includes R&D for the F-35B and C, at ~$195M per airframe.So france developed a 4.5th gen aircraft that costs almost as much as the 5th gen F-35A. The flyaway cost for F-35A is $85-100M vs ~$120-150M for the Rafale.
>>64187044it's not QUITE as bad for france since they're keeping the majority of that money in the french economy, but it's still pretty obvious why most of europe bought the F-35.
France will never make a profit on airframes alone and relies on expensive maintenance contracts and munitions to recover costs. Nowadays they're slowly realising that foreign co-developed munitions, or outright buying US munitions is far cheaper and their domestic development of munitions will fall by the wayside until they too no longer see the economic benefit of producing airframes aloneFCAS is going to be a wakeup call when Germany pulls out over France being too dumb to realise they can't fund these things alone.
>>64187002France can't do it alone either, not anymore. That's why they are trying to have their next jet co-funded by the Germans. Fifth gen fighters are realistically too expensive and complex for most countries to develope alone.
Italy makes its own very cute very gucci jet trainers but they were smart enough to realise they have a small country with a small MIC. Aermacchi and Leonardo, my sons it is 1970 and yuo must choose how you will make a new supersonic strike aircraft and interceptor: >Make an all italian one despite having only produced a single prototype supersonic fighter (15 years ago) and never having made an all weather strike aircraft.>Work with BAe and Messerschmitt to create the most advanced and capable strike/interdiction aircraft ever built in Europe at that time.They smartly choose the latter and have kept making the big brain choice
>>64186867They make the M-346, a armed trainer/light fighter.It can launch AMRAAM's.Their aviation industry excels at making helicopters. The Swedes have the Gripen but they don't design their own helicopters or large aircraft.The Russians used to make CV's, Cruisers and Destroyers - now they have a hard time rolling out a frigate.The Brits used to make everything, now they make nothing and exist entirely at America's leisure
>>64186867It's easier to build ships than planes.
>>64186867>why country X can't do Yshit economy
>>64187002>>64186867>developed and built G91>built on license the best version of the F-104>co-developed and built Tornado>co-developed and builds Eurofighter>developed and built plenty of prop and jet trainers>Tier 2 partner for the JSF F-35 and has a FACO at Cameri>co-developing GCAPThe biggest constraint that kept us from developing a 4th gen fighter by ourselves was the usual; money and political will. It's not that we can't, it's that our politicians were always skeptic about staking so much on these projects. Therefore our industry was always constrained by what budget they could muster by themselves, with the government only agreeing to buy some examples if they showed promise. Which in turn made us mostly focus on jet trainers.Now that we're entering into the 6th gen realm and our country run by the dumbest flock of retards we ever saw it's even more impossible for us to finance such projects alone. I deeply respect the approach the french have on self reliance regarding military matters, but I still think it should be applied to the EU as a whole, as even france will not be able to field a 6th gen by themselves (see SCAF/FCAS)
>>64187479Really? Genuinely curious.
>>64187002>the rafale is entirely domesticNot really, it's a slightly modified and cheaped out Eurofighter that they built once they were kicked out of the Eurofighter program.
They forgot about M-345...
>>64188040It's just not that interesting. It's a phase II and III trainer meant to be as cheap to operate as possible. It now has a fully glass cockpit with augmented reality gizmos ETTS and whatnot but it still lacks the raw power of the M-346 or the elegance of the MB-339. And let's not forget that it's simply a modernized Siai-Marchetti S-211.>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mBiWsI4COM>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iCPJ3--awA
>>64187044>retarded retard comparing apples and orangesYou don't even know what's included in those prices you actual fuckwit.Also, notice how you're not even including the maintenance and flight hour costs lmao
>>64188021>I'll try bullshitting, that's a neat trickLmao this has no relation to reality whatsoever.
>>64188107>Also, notice how you're not even including the maintenance and flight hour costs lmaoNo shit, I specificaly said total cost including R&D (not ongoing maintaince/sustainment costs) and flyaway costs (just airframe components + labor).
>>64188120It's the truth, whether you like it or not.
>>64186867>major producer of F35 parts>currently working on a joint venture project with 2 other nationsYou're a lazy stupid nigger, kys
>>64187327Their helicopters are sleek, cute and capable too. I hope they keep nurturing that industry.
>>64187002Why did France develop the FREMM and the SAMP/T together with Italy?
>>64188172
>>64186867Only a select few countries unlocked the last skill in the Tech Tree. Crystal-blade work can only be mastered by the chosen ones.
>>64188172Yes I will always be a certified AW Wildcat fan.
>>64186867Jets are very expensive to manufacture and Italy cannot benefit from economies of scale to keep unit costs down.
>>64188211>aw wildcat>sleek and cuteI don't want to see the women you like.
>>64188253The original Lynx was sleek and cute but much like an Italian wife it has gotten a bit fat after 20 years.
>>64188269>italian wife
>>64186867I swear I saw this exact thread with the same image at least 5 times. Who makes these?
>>64188734I'm pretty sure there is at least one resident Italian autist that is set on having at least one Italy themed thread open at all time. Hell, I bet my left testicle that this thread's OP is the same dude who started the "why is the Italian Navy so focused on ASW2" thread that is also going on right now.
>>64188856That thread is pretty cool though, got to cover like 3 different topics
>>64186867Italy puzzles me. Why can they make some excellent stuff but stuff like their cars fucking suck?
>>64188856Nah, it's Armatard trying to do D&C by larping as a frog. He tried to do the same by larping as a swede.
>>64188878Because capitalism. All our "italian" cars have had their factories relocated to poorer countries like Romania, Brazil, Poland etc so that they could pay the employee less and QC went down the drain. The fiat panda is still great tho.
>>64188878their cars are good thot. /o/tist
>>64188893why don't they have their factories in rich countries? oh because of high taxes and workers laws... so its socialism
>>64189007Are you complaining about workers rights?
>>64188878Dont forget the clusterfuck company Ansaldobreda that made trams in the early 2000s that were so bad they were taken out of commission before the ones from the 60s because they refused to admit anything was wrong and fix them. That's just Italian corporate culture, never admit to any faults, never fix them.
>>64189031The FrecciaRossa is great
>>64188856Yes it's very annoying. However If he happens to be a cute olive skinned twink and posts himself barefoot wearing a roman toga and a crown of flowers I will personally reply to all his threads talking about how great the Italian Air Force is and about stuff like the absolute chads Maj. Bellini and Capt. Cocciolone attacking an Iraqi chemical weapons site alone in their Tornado on the 2nd night of the Gulf War after every other aircraft in the strike package aborted due to thunderstorms preventing a/a refuelling.
>>64189066Anon?
>>64189080purely for historical research and art history reasons you understand.
>>64189000>Alfa Romeopos of a brand
>>64188191why is no one afraid of EMP's?
>>64189139Meme
>>64189139What would be source of the emp?
>>64187024sarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>>64188291not white
>>64189139>what is shielding
>>64188253>I don't want to see the women you like.>womenWell, funny thing...
>>64186867>why doesn't Italy, a nation with limited economic resources, and even more limited military needs, doesn't invest an ungodly amount of money to make military equipment instead of sharing the burden with its allies?It's a vassal state of the US anyway, historically all the governments bowed down to their overlord, so going their own way is a non-starter to begin with.>>64189064Italo is much better, at least the OG, the Alstom AGV.
>>64186867Italy has one of the final assembly plants for the F-35.
>>64187016You just reminded me of those catalogues of miniatures, I think it was the tornado of aeritalia...
>>64187044You did forget so fast what happened during 2025-1 with Drumpff?
>>64187002>it's a coping Francefailure
>>64188107>Also, notice how you're not even including the maintenance and flight hour costs lmaoThe frogs only account for fuel in their $/flight hour costs, and they omit all the external pods the Rafale needs to be competitive in a contested airspace war, nor do they include the maintenance and flight hour costs of the support aircraft like the AWACS, ELINT/SIGINT, EW, comms, and tankers needed to support the Rafale in a contested airspace war for it to even function as intended. Easy to seem cheaper when you do calculate in 80% of the shit needed in actual combat for the Rafale to even be slightly competitive.
>>64186867Same old post you made some months ago. Faggot.
>>64189302Found the nigger. KYS
>>64188191That's the one I as thinking of.>>64189139With modern shielding a nuclear EMP would have to be close enough that the thermal radiation would take you out anyway.
>>64188881>it's Armatard trying to do D&C by larping as a frog. He tried to do the same by larping as a swede.Looks like you were right.
>>64191390
