https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGK0wYXebmc>Just run away broWhat the fuck is the counter to explosive FPV drones?
It is kind of harder to dodge artillery shells than drones y'a know
>>64199472
>>64199478wouldn't those get shredded by the wind pressure?
>>64199482It's using something like the shahed from iran but smaller.
>>64199461Shit like that? Shoot it
>>64199478Nice lender vely implessive
>>64199461Hard kill systems are the only option that'll still work 2 years from now, investing in anything else is a waste of time.Shotgun shills saw commercial FPVs doing 40kmh and really think specialized drones aren't going to be closing at 200kmh+.
>>64199484so like a mothership drone of some sort?
>>64199518A plane
>>64199494>Shotgun shills saw commercial FPVs doing 40kmh and really think specialized drones aren't going to be closing at 200kmh+.Why have 200kmh drones when you can have just one drone valling in artillery?
>>64199522okay i misunderstood, thanks
>>64199476Zigger or not, that was a pretty baller shot
>>64199525Time of flight, higher CEP and and single 155mm HE costs $1k so why not spend that same $1k on a PGM?And no I'm not an "everything is obsolete" retard, arty and armour still have their place but a drone designed from the ground up to locate, ID, track and impact infantry while carrying a 100g warhead can and will be mass produced for $1k to $2k while requiring dedicated anti-air systems to counter.
>>64199706>Time of flightIs significantly less per amount of artillery munitions than on any drones, same for preparation.A single drone can direct tons of artillery on target if need be, while each pitiful warhead on a drone takes like 40 minutes of prep and a dozen minutes of flight to get where it's needed. And that's only if EW doesn't shut it down. Up to 80% of FPV drones used by Ukraine never make it to target, while it might take up to 10 drones to destroy a single MBT; the worst number was a whopping 42 drones for one vehicle.Any commander will prefer artillery for problems of any significant scale. Drones are fine in static trench warfare where small infiltration groups and platoon sized attacks are all anyone manages, but the moment you go up in scale to brigade or division operations, the big guns will have to come out.
>>64199461EW and modern VSHORAD
>>64199461Shotguns work great
LoLLook at that fucking POS.Do you realize how much that all weighs?Do you see those tiny motors and blades on that that thing?Does it not ring a bell that this contraption would never lift off the ground?It's just that, you assburger autists are too low IQ to catch on it's stupid propaganda.
>>64200451Get youself a 6S 7" racing quad and try it for yourself.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UympGfe7GGU
>>64200477You're a dumb fuck, didn't even click your dumb fuck jewtube link.
>>64200491I've got a little quad and are building a 4", rotor wings can carry stupid loads with the right motors and blades.
>>64200504You talking that shit and posting THIS fucking picture only tells me you're a DUMB FUCK!!NEXT ASSBURGER 4CHINNER RETARD STEP RIGHT UP!
>>64200529Eh, your bait is weak, if anyone wants to learn I recommend https://oscarliang.com/
>>64200537Your cognitive logic is weak!! Must be a libshit that's (you) ing me, disgusting.
>>64200504>can carry stupid loadsSo youre gonna have it fly you around? That's wicked, retard!!
>>64200596I leave my loads in stupid women but I would fucking love to build a drone big enough to ride.
>>64200384You're exactly the kind of retard who sees some of the problems with using cludged commercial drone + rpg warhead and doesn't understand where we're headed.
>>64200668>modern war is totally going to be a third world failed war that degraded into trench warfare>trust me bro, i've never been in the military but i watch a lot of videos
>>64200625LoL look at that french sandnigger go!! The skin and bones coon probably weighs less than that kinky setup in your thread pic. XD
>>64200674>WW2 PGMs are so large and expensive they are only dropped on warships and strategic bridges>Vietnam PGMs have shunk in size and cost enough to be used on lots of bridges and factories>Gulf War PGMs have shunk in size and cost enough to be used on armoured vehicles and single houses>Ukraine PGMs have shunk in size and cost enough to be used against a single manNTA but you are really bad at pattern recognition.
>>64200674FPV drones are a potent cheap short range PGM that can be carried in large numbers by light infantry. In the near future all of them will have automatic terminal homing, 200kmh max speed, they will not require any setup, just switch on and go, and they will be even more devastating against front line infantry and vehicles than the current off the shelf DIY solutions that are causing the vast majority of frontline casualties despite being fiddly and unreliable.
>>64200674Why would you go through the kill chain and lob a handful of expensive shells at a target you wont even hit all the while exposing your artillery piece for counter arty when your troops could just use organic FPVs to literally fly straight into the enemy with a CEP of ZERO.
>>64200702>against a single manCongratulations. You don't win wars by killing single individuals. Now try to figure out which is better for destruction of area targets, artillery or singular drones.>>64200707>that are causing the vast majority of frontline casualties despite being fiddly and unreliable.Because of lack of artillery and the war having degraded into a static trench shitfest with small-size dispersed actions at best. This is a third world war you're seeing here.>>64200730Because you need to destroy battalions, brigades, divisions with high enough tempo to gain operational success and to enable maneuvers; to achieve military objectives, so you don't end up in a three-days-to-kyiv scenario, like Russia did. Nobody intends to fight like what's happening in Ukraine. What you're seeing in Ukraine is a fail-state of warfare.
>>64200752>which is better for destruction of area targetsAs I said all the way up here >>64199706>I'm not an "everything is obsolete" retard, arty and armour still have their placeArty has it's uses, armour has it's uses and sub $1k PGMs have uses.
>>64200752>You don't win wars by killing single individuals.Sometimes, that's all it takes.
>>64200764>As I said all the way up hereSo you agree with me that artillery is better, good.>Arty has it's uses, armour has it's uses and sub $1k PGMs have uses.Then what is this >>64200668 line of argumentation about?>You're exactly the kind of retard who sees some of the problems with using cludged commercial drone + rpg warhead and doesn't understand where we're headed.Are you two different people?
>>64200773>artillery is betterFor turning a city to ruble, delivering skeet warheads to armour formations and generally making the enemy have a bad time yes.For rapid responce FOB defence I would like to also have a thousand tiny automated drones that I can designate a kill and no-kill box to and slaughter attackers en masse.>Then what is this >>64200668 line of argumentation about?Not me but I do agree with him, most of the shortcomings of race FPVs can be solved by dedicated designs combined with a standardized warhead mounting / fusing system so you just attach the right warhead for the target and let the image recognition killbot do it's thing.
>>64200752A single FPV causes more effect than ten 155mm shells. Blunting a brigade spearhead would require tens of artillery pieces and thousands upon thousands of shells. FPV's? A handful of drone teams operating as light fucking infantry with fucking pickups for transport.You're not seeing the big picture here, or any picture for that matter...
>>64200819>generally making the enemy have a bad time yes.Is a severe understatement. That "bad time" means unit destruction.>Not me but I do agree with him, most of the shortcomings of race FPVs can be solved by dedicated designs combined with a standardized warhead mounting / fusing system so you just attach the right warhead for the target and let the image recognition killbot do it's thing.And now your weapon system is significantly more expensive than a good old 155mm shell and has fragile electronics inside of it to boot. It's also now just a plain old loitering munition which complement fires, but are in no way a replacement for artillery.>>64200820>A single FPV causes more effect than ten 155mm shells.Come on now, you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Ridiculous claims like this show you're way out of your depth. A single FPV probably doesn't even make it onto target, because again, 60-80% of them are lost to EW as is, before modern C-UAS solutions are dispersed into militaries around the world. All of this is crucial time that the enemy can spend killing your dudes.This is just with ordinary 155mm shells, never mind modern stuff like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18Rwoa7c1k>A handful of drone teams operating as light fucking infantry with fucking pickups for transport.Are not capable of physically stopping the enemy and have to hide to survive, meaning they can't actually prevent enemy maneuvers. They also have no way of defending themselves against the enemy's own fires or drones, for that matter.>You're not seeing the big picture here, or any picture for that matter...The picture I'm seeing is that you don't actually know what you're talking about, but have built an awfully confident misunderstanding of warfare based on curated footage of a weapon system that films its own use.
>>64200879>And now your weapon system is significantly more expensive than a good old 155mm shellAnon an iPhone has everything you need for a production cost of ~$600, because we are talking arms you want domestic production instead of China so double it to $1200. You don't need the screen so removing that covers the cost of the brushless motors and props.This is the same price as a 155mm shell and you don't need tubes or crews.>fragile electronics inside of it to bootWell time to throw FLIR, NVGs, radios and blu force tracker in the bin, can't field sensitive electronics after all.>It's also now just a plain old loitering munition which complement firesI'll set the scene, Israel has called and NATO has answered once again you are in a FOB on an unnamed hill in turdistan and mortars just fell on you again.Do you want to try to spot the mortar hoping they aren't behind the next hill, figuer out grids, call for fire, give corrections and hope Hajji Hank didn't fuck off in that 20 minutes or would you rather set your drone swam box to "mortar" and hear a blast 2km away 1 minute later?>no way a replacement for artilleryNever said it was.
>>64200941>Anon an iPhone has everything you need for a production cost of ~$600, because we are talking arms you want domestic production instead of China so double it to $1200.1200 + ~500 for the drone itself, so now you're up to 1700 dollarydoos for a weapon system that has to be prepared well before use, can't fly in adverse weather, is very vulnerable against directed energy weapons, is probably faulty because of how cheap you got it for, can't navigate on its own due to GPS jamming, etc. I'd rather have artillery.>Well time to throw FLIR, NVGs, radios and blu force tracker in the bin, can't field sensitive electronics after all.Hardened electronics increase the cost significantly. You yourself said you want to stick to iPhones in terms of tech, so comparisons to military equipment are not relevant here.>I'll set the scene, Israel has called and NATO has answered once again you are in a FOB on an unnamed hill in turdistan and mortars just fell on you again.>Do you want to try to spot the mortar hoping they aren't behind the next hill, figuer out grids, call for fire, If this is your biggest concern, you can do whatever you want. Just call an F-16 or Apache on station and have them bomb it. It's not like irregular warfare like that has serious resource constraints.>give corrections and hope Hajji Hank didn't fuck off in that 20 minutes or would you rather set your drone swam box to "mortar" and hear a blast 2km away 1 minute later?Again, capabilities of this sort are far more expensive than artillery or mortars, as is more likely for your FOB. You're not just talking about basic image recognition anymore, but a completely automated killchain, with full navigation, terrain recognition, obstacle avoidance, kill decision. You're not getting something like this as cheap as you would man-guided drones.
>>64200451An entire PG-7VL grenade weighs under 6lbs, including the boosting charge and rocket.The warhead is mostly hollow with only 26oz of explosive
>>64200941>>64201007Oh, and your drone also can't fly at night because NVGs or thermals are a significant kick up in costs.
>>64201007>+ ~500 for the drone itselfThe processor and accelerometer in the phone are the drone, that is what a drone is. The only extra cost is you want 4 iphone batteries to make a 4S 4,500mha battery that would carry a 40mm grenade ~8 km while running image recognition.>prepared well before useThis is what you don't get about repacing race FPVs with custom designs, you don't have a video feed and remote controller you just have a laptop connected to a big box of drones so you can give simple "10 drones, 360deg search, target vehilces, engage out to a range of 5km, don't engage within 50m of the FOB" type commands with a simple interface.>can't fly in adverse weatherFor $1000 units this would be a problem, could easily be solved with $3000 units as you just need the mass, power and extra battery to fight wind + FLIR for night hunting.>very vulnerable against directed energy weaponsAgreed, who is fielding them in numbers that make this a problem?I'm not saying I can see 20 years into the future and what counters will exist at scale but everything I'm talking about was either done 10 years ago or is done by hobbysts today.>is probably faulty because of how cheap you got it forI'm not talking about giving out one or two, who cares about a 5% failure rate when a swarm box is 1,000?>can't navigate on its own due to GPS jammingIt doesn't need to know it's long / lat and phone accelerometers are accurate enough for the 15 minute return trip 10km out and back.>I'd rather have artilleryYou'll have both.>Hardened electronics increase the cost significantlySo you meant fragile as in they will be killed by nuclear EMP? Yes, they are cheap.>Just call an F-16 or Apache on station and have them bomb itF-16 is ~$20k per hour + $40k for each SDB.Apache is $5k per hour + $100 per M789 HEDP 30mm.1/2
>>64201067 cont.>You're not just talking about basic image recognition anymore, but a completely automated killchain, with full navigation, terrain recognition, obstacle avoidance, kill decisionOk, step by step.>full navigationNo, no GPS just internal INS that will drift over time but within a small drones max range won't matter at all.>terrain recognitionNope, simple ultrasonic distance sensor pointed down and at 45 deg on each side, these cost cents each.>obstacle avoidanceSee above>kill decisionIs made at time of launch, if you aren't sure use kill / no-kill geofencing (still doesn't need GPS, INS based on launcher location is fine).>You're not getting something like this as cheap as you would man-guided drones.The biggest cost is FLIR which is also used on some man-guided drones.
>>64201098 after thoughtYou can also solve the FLIR cost issue by making the software detect which is plugged in and you can swap them in the field.Make some poor fucker put FLIRs on a couple of hundred every night and swap back to visual for the day, he's getting deployment pay so might aswell earnt it.
>>64201067>could easily be solved with $3000 units as you just need the mass, power and extra battery to fight wind + FLIR for night hunting.Not getting an all-weather drone with full automatization and FLIR of any quality for 3k. That's fantasy.>I'm not talking about giving out one or two, who cares about a 5% failure rate when a swarm box is 1,000?The people getting hit by those faulty, automated drones, probably. The lawyers when your product ends up killing civilians because it lacks the optics to differentiate between valid targets and a family out for a picnic. Your own guys, when the drone has a malfunction and thinks they are the target.>It doesn't need to know it's long / lat and phone accelerometers are accurate enough for the 15 minute return trip 10km out and back.>and backYou're suggesting these things return to base? How exactly do you intend to keep them from targeting friendlies using just a cheap accelerometer and dogshit optics? All it takes is one incident and your equipment is put out of service. Except it'd never make it into service in the first place.>So you meant fragile as in they will be killed by nuclear EMP? Yes, they are cheap.Physically as well. From impacts, shocks, adverse weather. Your system needs to operate both in the severe cold and in severe heat and has to be handled by grunts, be functional after having been left outside for a long time.>No, no GPS just internal INS that will drift over time but within a small drones max range won't matter at all.So adverse weather fucks up your INS navigation.>Nope, simple ultrasonic distance sensor pointed down and at 45 deg on each side, these cost cents each.>obstacle avoidance>See aboveSo if your enemy is inside a forest, a building, in a ditch, or in some other adverse terrain, how do you resolve trying to fly your drone inside the area?>>64201111>just have hundreds of FLIR optics laying around for suicide munitions useBro, your average grunt doesn't have one.
>>64201150>Not getting an all-weather drone with full automatization and FLIR of any quality for 3k. That's fantasy.>Bro, your average grunt doesn't have FLIRWhen it only needs to survive minutes in the air instead of years in a hummer they aren't too bad.$1300 retail for this one, sure you could get better when ordering 100,000.https://www.getfpv.com/flir-duo-r-thermal-camera.html>The people getting hit by those faulty, automated drones, probablyPeople get killed by dud shells every year, war sucks.>killing civilians because it lacks the optics to differentiate between valid targetsThat's solved with a self test, above I was talking about literally falling out of the sky as everything from SAMs to bullets tend to do in war.>Your own guys, when the drone has a malfunction and thinks they are the target.Geofencing + self test, I would never say "lets send $3k man-out-of-loop drones into mixed forces" just as you would never fire your arty into mixed forces.>You're suggesting these things return to base?Yep.>How exactly do you intend to keep them from targeting friendlies using just a cheap accelerometer and dogshit optics?Kill box, no-kill box, return box. Return box is near FOB maybe even in FOB but treated the same as a helipad when it's being landed on ie. stay the fuck away.>Except it'd never make it into service in the first place.Peacetime military where most of the government hold MIC shares? Never. Hot war when those shares are worthless is we lose? Yes.>Physically as well. From impacts, shocksAs much as any plastic cased solid state device, ranges from Nokia 3310 to HMD Fusion depending on materials but the materials cost difference is neglagible.>Your system needs to operate both in the severe cold and in severe heatSwarm box would been heating to keep the batteries healthy in the cold, box can also protect from smart grunts, nothing protects from dumb grunts.>So adverse weather fucks up your INS navigation.Why would it?
>>64201201 cont.>So if your enemy is inside a forest, a building, in a ditch, or in some other adverse terrain, how do you resolve trying to fly your drone inside the area?Camera + ultrasonic ranging as I said. It's not some amazing self driving tech it's a beeper beeping at the flight computer when it's close to something and giving a bearing to the hazard.
>>64200879>1 Super HE coverage 7000m2>1 Standard HE coverage 1100m2>doing some rough math of 25000/26 gives 961m2 for 1970's 155 HE round>7500/26 gives 288m2 for ww2 105mm HE round1 Super HE round has almost the same coverage as 4 artillery battery with 6 WW2 era 105mm guns each firing 1 roundIf 6 155mm guns fired 6 super HE shells then they could have the lethal coverage of 42000m2, any form of infantry push would be pure suicide even when greatly spaced out.
>>64201201>When it only needs to survive minutes in the air instead of years in a hummer they aren't too bad.No, your system 100% has to survive years sitting around in dogshit conditions. That's what it does for 99.99% of its lifespan.>$1300 retail for this one, sure you could get better when ordering 100,000.And that one doesn't have anywhere the image quality to determine adequately whether something is a valid target.>People get killed by dud shells every year, war sucks."War sucks, so lets use dangerous equipment that gets people killed for no reason at all." What are you, an actual psychopath? >That's solved with a self testNo it's not. >GeofencingBased on cheap INS using non-rugged electronics that have been subjected to military conditions?>Peacetime military where most of the government hold MIC shares? Never. Hot war when those shares are worthless is we lose? Yes.No.>Swarm box would been heating to keep the batteries healthy in the coldSo now it needs to be hooked up to power too? Does it come with its own generator, or do you leech off what's there already?The US military already has a weapon system for its Lethal Miniature Aerial Missile System. It's the Switchblade. They don't cost 3000 dollars.
>>64201231>No, your system 100% has to survive years sitting around in dogshit conditions.Yes, in a sealed box same as they come from china though storms on ships in a box.>And that one doesn't have anywhere the image quality to determine adequately whether something is a valid target.I agree that's why I keep using terms like "kill-box" what do you think happens to anything with a signature in the kill-box?>"War sucks, so lets use dangerous equipment that gets people killed for no reason at all." What are you, an actual psychopath?"Lets fire HEI 23mm into the air and have no control over where it lands" everyone is actually psychopaths in war, pic related.>No it's not.So you mean software errors where the hardware tests fine and the software does something unexpected? That is a risk the whole world takes daily including in top end militarty hardware, that's what testing is for.>Based on cheap INS using non-rugged electronics that have been subjected to military conditions?Anon I know it's not ideal, I'm thinking WW3 not GWOT2.>So now it needs to be hooked up to power too?Yes electrically powered weapons systems need external power sources, do you get this upset when the crew chef plugs the M134 Minigun into the helicopters power bus?Is it easier to move around an arty regiment or some boxes and extra fuel for gens you have anyway?>The US military already has a weapon system for its Lethal Miniature Aerial Missile System. It's the Switchblade. They don't cost 3000 dollars.I'm fully aware and think from $120k to $3k means they can be used on targets they otherwise wouldn't be.Lets say I'm an order of magnitude off, all the quals redundancy and congress buying drives it up 10x to $30k, that's still 4 times as many with more capability because the switchblade can't be told "kill whatever you see in this area" and it can't return if it finds nothing.
>>64201305>Yes, in a sealed box same as they come from china though storms on ships in a box.And after you fire it a couple times? Do you get some guy to hermetically reseal it all over again? In the winter? In the snow, in rain? >I agree that's why I keep using terms like "kill-box" what do you think happens to anything with a signature in the kill-box?Friendly fire, is what. War crimes, is what. Weapons of mass destruction are not very popular for a reason.>"Lets fire HEI 23mm into the air and have no control over where it lands" everyone is actually psychopaths in war, pic related.No, using poor solutions out of necessity is absolutely not the same thing as having autonomous killbots with poor optics and hardware that lead to them killing everyone and everything.>So you mean software errors where the hardware tests fine and the software does something unexpected? That is a risk the whole world takes daily including in top end militarty hardware, that's what testing is for.That hardware is not the cheapest budget shit product you tried to finance like some Islamist garage engineer. The whole world doesn't rely on neural networking based on shit hardware.>Anon I know it's not ideal, I'm thinking WW3 not GWOT2.You literally talked about a FOB in the sandpit because of Israel earlier. Are you going to settle down on a scenario? >Is it easier to move around an arty regiment or some boxes and extra fuel for gens you have anyway?The arty regiment does not have to be within your own AO, and this logistics also adds to the cost of your product. The arty regiment moves itself.>can't be told "kill whatever you see in this area" and it can't return if it finds nothing.That's fine because we generally don't want to use weapons of mass destruction in ordinary warfare and will limit their use to the furthest possible extent to ensure we don't receive catastrophic damage in return.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU
>>64201342The only point I'll argue here is you seem horrified I could even consider saying "in X grid kill everything", do you feel the same when arty "fires for effect"? The end result of the ground is no different.
>>64201350Except your fires for effect have observers and a human in the killchain. It's not an autonomous, indiscriminately killing drone swarm that you built with such a low budget it physically couldn't even be discriminating.
>>64201354You think I'm picking grids off the map without having any eyes on?You realyl do think I'm nuts.
>>64201365That was exactly how you described the initial use of this system>mortars fired at your FOB>you don't have eyes on>you're sending drones randomly out in every direction to find targets
>>64201368In that case I explicity said "mortar" thinking that's what the image recognition is for.Is it possible it makes a mistake and hits something else without a human in the loop?Sure, same goes for Brimstone and every AShM since the 60s.
>>64201305>"Lets fire HEI 23mm into the air and have no control over where it lands" everyone is actually psychopaths in war, pic related.23mm HE have a self destruct feature same with 30mm HE or 40mm bofors HE round or the 20mm HE used in the vulcan and so on. They wont land on little timmy that is 5 km away from the gun.>pic relatedYou grabbed that from wikipedia, you should have seen>ZU-23-2 firing. Vitebsk, Belarus Created: 8 May 2010Now if you used 12.7mm and 14.5mm heavy machine guns as a example then you would have a point. They are firing projectiles too small to have a self destruct feature and they are lethal to humans way beyond effective anti air range.
>>64199525Because that wouldn't be as "muh drones"
>>64201398My example was bad, my point stands. During war everyone is constantly throwing leathal shit in random directions and just hoping granny doesn't get nailed.
>>64201414>During war everyone is constantly throwing leathal shit in random directions and just hoping granny doesn't get nailed.Yes but people clearly care enough to implement for example self destruct features on anti air shells that does infact cut down the theoretical maximum effective range for the sake of safety of civilians and own troops.One of the 20mm HEI-T rounds used in the m163 pivads for example only have maximum range of 1800 meters mainly because the rounds will self destruct at that range. If they said "fuck it, war is dangerous and people die anyway so lets go maximum range for combat effectivnes sake" and removed the self destruct the maximum range would be much higher, they would be able to mass target jets way further then normal but the risk of blowing up little timmy, granny and the supply truck from your own side 10km away when you spray 1000's of rounds into the air was considerd not worth it, even tho you might kill jets and helicopters from a higher range then 1800 with no SD feature.
>>64199461Just hit the drone operator with a ballistic missile
>>64199461how dangerous would a drone carrying a HEAT round meant for tanks actually be to a person on foot?
>>64202369The PG-7VL has 730g of HE which is ~6.5 of these stackable concussion grenades.
>>64200477>6s No fucking thanks I’m already $2000 into this drone shit and I don’t even have a running drone yet Boxer max $450 Hd0 box pro $400 Hota d6 $120 Gutted an ender 3 for a power supply for charger ($120 value) 2x SMC RS 2s batteries $120 I had to buy a new soldering setup, ts100 full setup, flex, solder, had to 3d print a whole gridfinity setup for all this shit
>>64203863>starting with digitalThat's on you anon.
