6 fucking kilos
6 fucking moa
...you mean 13 lbs, right?
>>64203683creci en guatemala
>kilos
>6 goddamn fuckin kilos>you couldn't just stop at 3 or 4 like an m16>you just had to keep adding doodads and gadgets
>>64203677It's not just the weight, but the balance - the rifle is supposedly stupidly front-heavy because of the super-thick barrel it needs to handle the pressures, which makes it harder to keep steady while aiming and shooting
>>64205146Don't forget the two charging handles
It's funny because noodle armed joes will cry, and it will be louder and cooler in shoothouses. Also get to reload more often and when we shoot the targets they will explode!
>>64203677It's the perfecf rifle for fighting out of a car in bjg barre. mountain-valleys where you can expect to take 500 yard shots against people with makeshift armor, IE Afghanistan. It's the perfect rifle for Afghanistan. It's dogshit for a near peer conflict like Ukraine which has taught us that the guy witb more ammo wins 90% of the time and every soldiers need 1,000 rounds minimum. As is typical procurement got the perfecf equipment to fight the last war.
>>64203677Heavier than both the SCAR 17 and 20 and the HK 417, even with a 20" barrel. And it's (not even) half as accurate. Fuck Sigshit.
>>64205263yeah but it shoots a super duper round and also it's shorter (until you add the suppressor and when you use the minature fake stock that no one will use)
>>64203677>kilosIs there anyone on this dogshit board that is an American anymore?
gentelmen...we can make it heavier
>>64203677>>64205308whatever happened to the "soldier's load is too heavy, we need to make it lighter"
>>64205422Make soldier stronger.
>>64205146And the suppressor!
>I cant believe the bongs adopted such a heavy rifle
>>64205422Oddly enough, that's exactly what the entire LSAT program was for, right up until it got hijacked for "muh overmatch".
>>64205511To be fair, the suppressor seems to be the only thing making this shitbox even remotely shootable.
>>64203677ywn have another service rifle designed in your own country. let alone a bullpup.
>>64205200I know you're jk but these will 100% be banned from indoor ranges, at least with the fury rounds. It can tear through brick walls easily.
>>64203677>bro we got this M14 here that'll be $8000 plus tax
>>64205308Looks stupidly big
>>64203677That's not enough cocaine for a weekend with the boys and you know it.
>>64203677GO CARRY THAT m16 and M249 RETARDS YOU WILL DIE BY DRONES AND ARTY WHILE BIG BRO ARMY WILL BE CAMPED OUT IN THEIR FOBS AND CLEARING 5KMS EVERY FUCKING DAY UNTIL THEY BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF CITIES. AMERICA WILL OVERMATCH ALL THREATS. EVEN DRONE SWARMS IN THE THOUSANDS CANNOT COMPETE. YOU GUYS ARE PREPARING FOR A WAR THAT DOESNT EXIST ANYMORE WHILE US ARMY IS PREPARING FOR FUTURE WARS.that is all.
>>64205284>, he cried, posting on a japanese anime forum, not even knowing why the weapons board is called "/k/"Yeah, so last I heard this was the weapons board, not the burgermutt circlejerk board
>>64203677>Oh man, I sure do hate this lightweight carbine that shoots fine out to any normal engagement range>I WISH my gun was doctrinally outdated again and also made like shit by the most mediocre shitass manufacturer this side of Kel-Tec so my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss’s boss’ boss’s boss’s boss gets a cushy retirement gig while my knees and joints explode into puddles of shit
>>64205881>4chins are wholly situated in fucking Delaware of all places and it’s always been an American site LARPing as a Jap oneYou WILL measure things in units of burger here, thirdie.
Would you replace the M4 with something like FN IWS?Or that thing is too heavy too?
>>64205904besides shartistan only liberia and myanmar are using the imperial system
Why people get riled up on arbitrary units, just learn to use both and never get mad.
>>64205243>500 yards>6 moaCan I get a probability of hit analysis on this? Let's assume after the first miss the target goes to ground so it needs to be a headshot.
>>64205284Yeah, but I’m gonna stop using this fucking site
>>64205146And the suppressor AND the recoil spring being in top/in front of the center of gravity not to the rear like in an AR buffer tube. Just minmaxxing bad weight balance
That little string that attaches the sling to the stock looks weak af, is this standard issue ?
>>64205740they'll just use special training rounds, we already do with m4s. We drew frangible rounds for our shoothouse
>>64206000the stock itself looks very fragile
>>64206000It is now :D
>>64205905Get sopmod m4s for infantry units and give riflemen and teamleaders trigger interrupt fire-controls to help pop drones and shoot fleeting targets that are far away
>>64205881>self reporting war touristEverytime lmao
>>64206008The sintered copper training rounds still tear up steel targets.
>>64206009>>64206010The more I look a it the worse it gets. The part that attaches to the handguard is even worse. There is a buckle right in the middle where your shoulder would be. They even managed to fuck up a simple sling. It's impressive.
>>64206009They made a special miniature stock to meet the length requirements
>>64206012but 5.56 does nothing to modern armor
>>64206023>cqb battle rifle schizophrenia: the project
>>64206024Neither do 6.8 rounds with steel penetrators. If you want to penetrate armor with either m4 or ngsw you need a special AP round with expensive penetrators insidearmor is also advancing faster than AP rounds. You can buy plates off the shelf that stop every rifle caliber AP round that exists.
>>64206035yeah, i know, i just used (current) official justification for 6.8 before that it was "every rifleman is a marksman"
Wait, did they actually let an exposed wire ? That thing will inevitably catch on something at the worst possible moment.
>>64203677>kilos
>>6420603584mm Chucky G is a rifle caliber.
>>64205913I accept your concession. American site, American rules.
>>64206019The whole stock looks bizarrely thin and small for a rifle meant to shoot the sooper speshul giganigga round.
>>642059714 moa, which >I'm< going to use for the M5, is a 20 inch spread at 500. For a non moving, directly facing human target you aim at the sternum and hit, somewhere, 85+% of the time wind not factored.For 6moa it's more like 60%Realistically halve those numbers for placed shots against different profile of target, targets moving. Halve again if wind drift is appreciable.
>>64206068The US military has used metric for over a century, anon. What do you think 'click' means?
>>64205243>AfghanistanThey specifically use Afghanistan as a reason to adopt the rifle because grunts keep being outranged by inbred with PKM and mosin. Then the shabbos goy brass have the gall to claim how sig spear is special because it was made solely by factoring future war instead of taking lesson from previous war like every hardware before it. Somehow they didn't took into account future war will consist of grunts firing sporadically at drones while running away.
>>64205905No. I like the licc gun, but fundamentally all these upcalibered 5.56 replacements are solving a problem that doesn't exist. The only way to improve on 5.56 is is to go even lighter, faster and smaller, ideally while still using the same magwell and bolt face; but nobody is doing that.
>>64206260>4 moa, which >I'm< going to use for the M5That's fine, but the M7 shoots 6 moa with XM1186 when it's not broken.
>>64206378M5 m7 mcx spear nigblaster to be honest I don't care anymore you know what I meant.
>>64206331> go even lighter, faster and smaller, krauts tried to do this with 4.6×36mm, it didn't work. 6mm arc seems like a good choice to "update" 5.56
>>64206409In that case you're wrong, because the M7 shoots 6 moa with XM1186.
I would rather be issued a stock M-14 from old inventory than use that fucking thing
>>642064306mm ARC is a terrible choice because it requires a nonstandard bolt, barrel, and upper receiver to reliably use in any AR-15 sized platform. At that point you might as well chamber it for 6mm WSSM.
Wasn't this thing not even actually trialed?
>>64206504no, that was the other SIG. the P320.
>>64206504Almost. The two other competitors (Textron and General Dynamics) silently dropped out of the program at the same time. But then True Velocity (General Dynamics's ammunition partner) took over their bid and insisted on completing the full trials. Which they then lost because their gun was somehow an even bigger piece of shit than the Sig.
>>64205308>Tell me more
>>64206588>silently dropped out of the program at the same timeSketchy >>64206530SIG is obviously in bed with congress or something, it's like they can't lose
>>64203677Sig's CEO is one smooth criminal
>>64205879>t. the US army in 1956Gun is too heavy dawg
>>64206588
>>64206035>You can buy plates off the shelf that stop every rifle caliber AP round that exists.What plate is this? Even the Adept Colossus loses to modern APs like 7N37 or large-core 7.92mm (SmKH).
>>64206465No it shoots 4-5 typically with a range of 3 to 6 moa for nearly all rifles included.Praytell, if the gun is so bad, why is it 1moa to sub-moa on match ammo same as anything else?I'll remind you the M16/M4 on milspec standard ammo is a 3-5moa gun
>>64206832>if the gun is so bad, why is it 1moa to sub-moa on match ammoIt's not, it shoots 2.5 MOA with match ammo.
>>64206268We dont use kilos though
>>64206430No, both 5.7 and 4.6 were constrained by having to fit within a pistol grip. Either round with the luxury of a full rifle case length would behave much different.
>>64206832>why is it 1moa to sub-moa on match ammo same as anything elseIs it? The only public testimony I've seen on the guns accuracy is that recent brass facts vid were he initially got 8 MOA with the supposed "bad early ammo batches", and even with supposed better ammo; groupings still flared out as the gun heated up.
>>64206863i talk about the HK36 4.6
>>64206908Huh. I'm not seeing any actual issue with it, seems like it was killed by not being as ubiquitous and widely supported as 5.56 rather than it not doing what it was supposed to. Still, even x36 seems too short, Id have it be x40+ to replicate 5.56 as much as possible.
>>64206886GT tested it a while back with Sig Fury Hybrid Match ammo and got 2.5 moa. BF was still gettin 6 even with the more consistent batches of XM1186.
>>64206857My ACFT was in meters and kilograms.
>>64203677I'll stick with my AR-15 that weighs 8.5lbs, 4x ACOG, .5MOA, suppressed with a sling thank you.>>64205263No shit. My 6.5CM 20S with a light, RC2, sling and 25x scope weighs under 14lbs, and he's a big boy.
>>64203677do you even lift bro?
Anons are unironically replying to someone who doesn't even know the rifle's name.Also if you want to know why the Army GP projectile has accuracy issues you should read SIG's patent on their version of it.
>>64207157The sig version is the one getting 6 moa.
>>64207170Anon, the GP projectile is not SIG's design.Again, read the SIG patent. It discusses why M1186 has accuracy issues.
>>64207157Do you want me to apologize for thinking the successor to the m4 would be an m5, because I won't and you can all eat shit. I actually care so little about this rifle the official names simply do not exist in my permanent memory.I've seen conflicting videos showing 1moa on match, 3moa on milgrade, 2moa on match, 5moa on milfrade imoa, 6, 8 14, 300 and twelve.I guess nobody knows if it can hit the moon from 15 feet or a gnat from 1500.
>>64207218>I'm going to wear my ignorance as a badge of honor
>>64207177>Design and testing is conducted with a government-issued 135gr projectile>Sig wins the contract>A year later, Sig receives a patent for an improved EPR projectile>Two years later, the system is being fielded with a 120gr projectile>This is clearly because the Army just felt like making changes for the sake of changes and they decided not to use the improved design because they'd just really rather use the worse one.
>>64207218>I've seen conflicting videos showing 1moa on matchOkay, post one.
>>64207250The Army isn't using SIG's EPR, I don't know how else to help you if you are still this clueless even after being told to read SIG's patent.https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240102779A1/en
>>64207270Where does it say in this patent that the bullet being used in the government issue cartridge two years later doesn't use the patented design?
>>64207256Primary arms spear 155gr match ammo
>>64207347I'm clicking but there's no video playing.
Buddy I'm not providing the easy work of a video search for you if you're going to be an asshole about what I say.
>There's totally videos of it and that's why I can't post a video of itOkay, bro.
>hurr durr I'm retarded and suck cocks and swallow cum and suck cum while I swallow cocksOk whatever.
>>64205308What if we added an underbarrel grenade launcher?
>>64207462might as well bring this back then.
>>64203677Go to the gym. Easy. Holding 6 kilos for an extended time is nothing for an actual man is nothing, btw.
>>64207609I'm a boxing light-heavyweight with 13.2 inch forearms and a 6 kilo gun is a burden. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar, a clown, a no experience, or a combination of.And no I don't juice.
>>64205284/k/ stands for killing. That's what moot said back in the day.
>>64203677Should have got a 6.5 sneedmore AR-10
>>64203677>M14 in babyshit brown but somehow even more bungled>cant even be saved by aestheticswhy is everything gay nowadays
>>64205971>6 MOA, 500 yardsThat’s quite terrible. 30” at 500 yards. So assume the guy’s head is a 7 inch diameter circle, hit probability is 5.4%. We are ignoring range and wind measurements as variables, right? Assuming you’re correcting for drop and drift perfectly?
>>64207085The kilograms part is untrue for american armed forces
>>64208039Drop is compensated for by the $7000 scope. Drift, you're on your own for. It'll mark holdovers for 5 mph wind either direction but you have to guess how fast the wind is actually going.
>>64203677As long as the golems are suffering, I am happy.
>>64205146>supposedlyCan you stop talking about things you have no reason to talk about? Unless you have first hand experience go regurgitate AI slop info on reddit or something.
>>64208246>drop is compensa-Lmao you dumb motherfucker nothing compensates for an inherent 5 inch inaccuracy for every 100 yards
>>64208368>5 inch inaccuracy for every 100 yardsSix. Really makes you think when people say that the M7 should just be adopted as a DMR and not a general-issue carbine, doesn't it? And I make a big deal in every NGSW thread about how everyone's combat load will be increased by a pound despite giving up a full third of their ammo*, but with only two thirds of your ammo on hand, when two thirds of that ends up in the next area code over from where you aimed, how much ammo do you actually have?*The automatic rifleman gives up half his ammo and gains 4 pounds.
>>64208306Nah he's right, most people (myself included) who have handled them say its wildly front-heavy. They're hard guns to find in the wild, only shot one for the first time last week, was a pretty miserable experience.
>>64208246>the $7000 scope*$12000-14000
>>64208410My answer to that is the same as it was Seven (7) years ago.Don't be a retard, and understand how to click the button when you have a real shot on a real target.80% bullshit pseudo suppressive, and wishful thinking, fires from a 5.56 is 80% of god damn nothing.20% effective fires from 6 standard loadouts is 252 shots on target.I think we all understand the wishful thinking going forward is >soldiers, stop wasting rounds and shoot a real shotIn a hypothetical, soldiers adapt skill, they make 30% on target, 6x20x6 x.3 equals...252 rounds on target.At damn near triple the impact energy.In principle the M7 solves a problem. It's up to training and skill to make that a reality.
>>64208468That's not the actual unit price though, is it? That's the amount paid from the contract amortized over however many were delivered. That contract involved building a factory for manufacturing precision-ground extreme low dispersion glass in the US, something that has never existed outside of Japan and Germany.With that said, I don't actually have a source for $7k being the actual unit price, it's just something I recall hearing.
>>64208478Sorry SEVEN by 20...because a "standard loadout" is 7 mags...math works the same. 7x30x6x.2 and 7x20x6x.3 both equal 252 hits.
>>64208478>>64208492Are you accounting for the difference between a 3 MOA M4 and a 6 MOA M7?
>>64208497I categorize that pseudo-fact in the same drawer I put the Chink shills trying to phish for F-47 information.By all available information the M7 averages out to a 3-4MOA gun, same as requirements demanded. Same as expectations. Same as past rifle history.Now if you'll excuse me I'll be listening to Erutan's Final Fantasy songs while I watch Goku and Gohan fight Perfect Cell.
>>64208514>Not accounting for the fact that the M7's rounds are being dispersed over a 4x larger areaIf we assume that 80% of 5.56 is aimed at nothing, and that 80% of the remaining 20% is misses, then we get a 4% chance to hit something.If we then swap to an M7 with its dismal accuracy, then that's only a 5% chance of aimed shots hitting anything. Which means that 80% of shots have to be aimed in order to maintain parity with the M4, even if you had the same amount of ammo for each. With the 30% reduction of ammo, you'd still have a lower chance of hitting anything even if every single shot was aimed.
>>64208549Holy crap you wrote this all horny-like specifically to make me slut slap you down back to Earth. I need some time I'm dealing with a severe re-flate of an old bilateral L5 pars fracture right now and I just can't bitchslap you into reality. I need a few minutes and another beer just to level out and process your bullshit.Hold the fuck on.
>>64208565>re-flateRe-flare or I guess a "flare up" of a severe L5/S1 vertebrae spinal injury. Like I had to take the whole rest of my week off of work. I'll fuck your brain super hard in a little while, dumbass.
>>64208514>By all available information the M7 averages out to a 3-4MOA gunNTA but, where are you pulling this data from?
>>64208549>80% is nothing, and 80% of the 20 is missesYou're just giving out the same math with an extra step, dipshit.Your cocksuck figure works out to 50 actual combat effective hits of 5.56 for every ~1250 of combat load.Little did you know, math is simple as fuck.That same figure applied to my (wishful thinking) M7 numbers works out to EXACTLY THE SAME COMBAT EFFECTIVE HITSIt's 50.4 shots either way you cook those numbers.The DIFFERENCE, my stupid little ice-age lemur of a friend, is the M7 is fucking destroying cover by comparison. It's pulping a combatant's arm at 400 yards instead of pencil-dicking. I could go on.Want me to go on?
>>64207289I will spoodfeed you anon, read up and learn why M1186 has accuracy issues, your homework is to find out how SIG resolves this issue with their projectile design.
>>64208582Did you remember to account for the M7's 4x greater dispersion this time?>>64208638That's why the original 135gr bullet had extreme accuracy issues. The current 120gr bullet uses Sig's conical interface. It's still inaccurate, mainly because the Spear isn't accurate.
>>64208653>4x greater dispersionLmao the m7 is a 12MOA gun?
>>64206012>trigger interrupt fire-controlsWhy aren't these everywhere in Ukraine by now? Is the tech actually just more janky than the demos lead is to believe or what
>>642086636 moa. A circle with double the radius has 4x the area.
>handguard loses zero after 200 rounds
The pointmsn/doorkicker variant will redeem the platform.
they made at least 10 different A tier gas piston m4 hybrid designs to choose from. why the chose this over everything else doesnt add up. there was a sampler platter to choose from. jesus
>>64208638>SIG resolves this issue with their projectile design.Okay, but where are you seeing 3moa?
>>64208692People shooting 3 round groups lmfao, not ten, not five, statistically worthless three round larue groups.
>>64208691>Army has been claiming a 10x improvement in small arms technology for the better part of a century, across half a dozen development programs>The shiny new wunderwaffe always ends up being outperformed by a basic bitch m4>People start making fun of Army procurement and it hurts the brass's feefees>Meanwhile, some boomer really wants the Army to field a battle rifle>Meanwhile, the Army sees that LSAT is nearly ready to present a fully realized product and wants it to replace the SAW>Battle rifle and LSAT programs get merged to make NGSW>Surely THIS will give us the 10x improvement we've been claiming for 70 years!>Just in case, they don't allow the M4 to compete>It turns out that once again their idea was stupid and their requirements were impossible to meet>But the Army feels compelled to adopt one anyway regardless of how badly it fails the requirements, because otherwise people will make fun of them even moreAnd that's how you get the M7.
>>64208653>That's why the original 135gr bullet had extreme accuracy issues. The current 120gr bullet uses Sig's conical interface.SIG's EPR is 121gr.
>>64208692>>64208720Anon stop being a lazy nigger and read the patent.
>>64205519Its weight isn't even in its top 10 problems
>>64206031>Implying that 12.5-13in battle rifles aren’t the sickest shit everGaylord.
>>64208754What are its top ten problems
>>64208565All you have is a botched circumcision after an abortive sex change. Be real, do you own a single gun, even airsoft?
>>64207478At least this thing felt "future" and not simply "different". Like if your goal is to sacrifice 6 things to gain 3, that's not really moving forward, is it?
>>64207609I hold 3 start collegiate records for powerlifting. You could be the strongest man in the world, 6 kilos will feel like 60 after enough time.
>>64209152You'd be surprised how often people don't understand how spotting works. They see a guy benching 200kg with a dyle dude standing over them and they'll say that dude is not useful for spotting . They do not understand that the little guy is assisting the big guy by taking off 20 or so kilos. That is all that's needed to return the bar to the rack safely.
>>64208691It makes a lot more sense when you think of it in terms of "who had the most connections to high ranking officials" or "most Jewish C levels within company".
>>64205913US doesn't use Imperial, ignorant turd.We use US Customary.>>64207392>>64207439Then shut the fuck up, retarded little bitch.
>>64205511and my axe!
>>64205913America uses whatever the fuck we want. We're the largest, most powerful, most wealthy empire to ever exist in the history of the Earth. Eurotrash nitpicking at the way in which we measure our dick will only ever be cope that the dick is question just crushed their house when we took it out of our pants.
>>64208306Supposedly, as in "I haven't had the opportunity to handle the gun myself but virtually everyone who did agrees on this"
>>64203677The level of organizational incompetence and corruption that had to occur for this piece of shit to be adopted is breathtaking.
>>64209652it's not the first time
>>64207478The Army should have just adopted this, it would have been deadly in Afghanistan. Imagine sending surplus OICWs to Ukraine. Since when do we care how expensive something is
>>64205146Thats not how that works, now post a personal firearm and a timestamp
>>64209777>the computer says it does everything we wanted it to do best of the options we had>never look at choice parametersfucking gravel bellies
>>64208809Not for every single soldier in your army. This is supposed to be the weapon system to replace the M4 and it's the fucking M14 but with a body kit and underglow.
>>64209777Good enough for government work :DDDD
>>64208745This is the laziest, intellectually dishonest, faggiest way to argue a guns accuracy I have ever seen on /k/You, sir, are a genuine jew.
>>64208665Maviks are usually too high to see and engage, and FPV drones come in too fast to acquire or shoot atthey would still be a lot more useful than the stupid range finder gimmick they chose for the M-7 though
>>64208306i finger fucked it and its very front heavy
>>64210150Yeah refusing to read primary sources so you can cling to delusions is pretty gay.
>>64207609>t. can't bench 1 plate and doesn't take his rifle on hours long hiking trips
>>64208740Source?
>>64208745Anon, the XM7 gets 6 moa AFTER changing the EPR design and reducing the pressure.
>>64203677>kilosWe're measuring guns in bags of coke now?
>>64210356If your mom had a reduction in size of 60% she'd still be 300lbsWhere is a single source of these guns averaging 3moa 5+ shot groups?
>>64208745Still waiting >>64210612>Where is a single source of these guns averaging 3moa 5+ shot groups?I had to specify 5 shots+ because I did go looking and every source I found were three shot groups trying to claim 1.5-3moa>and even then they had to cherry pick
>>64203677Well surely since it's so heavy and has a massive optic included, it must be pretty accurate, right?
>>64203677>doesn't even have a steel upperngmi
>>64205308What, the PAS-35? Pretty sure they’re integrating it since it has some capabilities to overlay with BNVGS the Army uses. Something to do with some wireless capabilities the increase your EMS and isn’t exactly the best choice to use, but hey, it’s a really nice thermal. Goes great on a 240.
>>64210411>the XM7 gets 6 moa AFTER changing the EPR design and reducing the pressureIt gets 2 moa with SIG's EPR.
>>64210871Can we see this Sig EPR that's definitely not being used by the Army?
>>64210745See >>64210356, there are shot groups presented in the patent.Stop being a lazy nigger and read it.
>>64210891Were those groups fired from an M7?
>>64210875https://youtu.be/c0SO3DA-BWY?si=Q19icNmicuSwOp62
>>64210899Yes.You are getting desperate in order to not accept first hand sources.
>>64210891Do you have a source of actual testing? Because these are literally just>SIG said so, here's a picture that "represents" a target
>>64207478>20mm airburst grenade launcher i.e. the perfect weapon against an FPV droneYeah, why don't they bring that back?
>>64210934And there it is, the proofster act.
>>64210955Nigger it's a claim in a patient, by the organization that benefits from the claim. I thought there would at least be a photo of the target. Has anyone, anywhere, ever independently confirmed that performance?
>>64210904There's three EPRs shown in the video and all three are Army loads. Where's this Sig-exclusive EPR load not used by the Army?>>64210913>Yes.Based on what evidence? Sig makes no claims about the weapon in their patent.
>>64210775I bet even this sexy beast full of stuff is lighter, jesus
reminder sir saar also claims 10k+ rounds of barrel life for this turd
>>64208306Nigga someone who has never held a gun in their life can tell that thing is front heavy.
>>64211000>There's three EPRs shown in the video and all three are Army loads.The only Army load in the video is one of the .338 cartridges.
>>64211528>M855A1 and M80A1 aren't Army loadsAre you actually retarded?
This is one autistic board. SIG won.
>>64213342Yes. And the Army lost.
>>64213363It's a perfectly serviceable service rifle
>>64205904your own fucking military uses the metric system tardor did you think a grid square is 1 mile x 1 mile?
>>64213430It's a perfectly serviceable rifle that's objectively worse than what it replaced, not to mention all of the things that could have replaced it instead.
>>64211853>>64211528There were M855A1 and M80A1 on the table, as well as SIG's 7.62x51 and 6.8x51 EPR.The one guy shoots M855A1 and SIG's 7.62x51 EPR.
>>64206013>I-I'll just call him a newfag, that will show him and distract from me lurking since yesterdayDumb fucking newfag
>>64205913Strange. Typically those countries don’t have their shit together.
>>64206009They made a mini stock to hit the length requirements and make it technically lighter. No one is actually going to use that stock.
>>64206024Neither does 6.8 unless you use tungsten core rounds. I’ll give you one guess what tungsten 5.56 does to level IV armor also.
>>64214742Liberia is an experiment on what if America is exclusively 13%.
>>64206863You can’t go too small with bullet diameter though. Even at super fast speeds the bullet will be light and pushed around by the wind much easier. Yes you could have a really looooong 4.6mm bullet but at some point that becomes unpractical.
>>64207392Nigger it would have been easier to post the video than reply with that
>>64208306Post a single rifle you own. Anyone with even a cursory experience with guns would realize its front heavy. Anyone with a cursory understanding of physics would also realize it. Anyone with common sense would realize it.
>>64208478>just make every 80IQ grunt into a calm, logical marksman in combatLet me know how that goes for you
>>64208514> By all available information the M7 averages out to a 3-4MOA gun,Post the available information. No, the program requirements aren’t proof
most fully loaded rifles weigh that much. want less weight? go back to irons and flash hiders
>>64208582> Want me to go on?I do because you’re retarded and this is entertaining
>>64208745>it’s a 2 MOA gun because Sig says it is Lol. Lmao even
>>64203677>SIX FOCKING KILOS, JA?
>>64205243>near peer conflict like UkraineHumiliating a bankrupt and corrupt post-soviet fiefdom, with outdated garbage soviet kit and no real air assets to speak of can be done with any sort of rifle or even no rifle at all. Case in point: 1990, 1999 and 2003.
>>64209777It did blend seamlessly with grandma's couch though!
The main problem is the weight and lack of ammo. What's the point of the scope to increase hit probability if we're reducing the ammo by half? Doubling ammo already already increases hit probability. Put that scope on the M4 if you want to see some real accuracy gains.The army really should have forced Sig to use the polycase ammo. That would have helped a lot.
There's no way that thing weighs 1/3 as much as your entire ruck
>>64205519I wish they still had the surplus grip pods in britbong FDE. sigh...
>>64206750It's literally just nepotism and quid pro quo anon
>>64206863In theory you could fit 8mm Kurz into a grip sized mag, AMT did it with .30 Carbine
>>64206430>>64206486Is 6.5 Grendel obsolete now?
>>64207462>>64210946This shit is how we got the Bradley
>>64208691Seriously, a POF Revolution in 6.5sneed can do all of this for a lower cost.>>64209331This
>>64215727Yeah idiot, 8 is bigger than 5.
>>64215727Define obsolete. There’s always going to be new rounds developed that are better in one way or another. They might be worse in some ways. It’s how companies continue to make money over minute changes sold as upgrades. If you’re starting from scratch, 6mm ARC is possibly the best way to go. If you already have a 6.5 Grendel there’s no reason to replace it.
bigger is always bettersmaller can never hit the servicebetter to be able to hit deep than never at all
>>642157276.5 Grendel has all of the same problems as 6 ARC, except it's slow as well. There's nothing in particular to recommend it, 7.62x39 and 9x39 are probably better since they have the option of heavier subsonic loads.
>>64205988Why couldn't they just use DI like the m16/m4. It's objectively superior to short stroke.
>>64205905I would just adopt the URGI as the new standard
still better than the B.A.R at 15KG or 26.5pounds6kg is normal for a rifle btw. 5kg is the AK47 so its not too far off.that's because your rifle has less wood on it.wood is light compared to steel. duhbut steel weapons and even composites last longer.so the weight is a nothing burger. just work out bro. No.64203743slower right of fire then the scar.yeah nah. keep your m16 the scar would out range your crappy rifle and out rate of fire.but yeah 4kg is is fairly light on the M1A2but the M1A4 is 5kg so idk your old fag right?yeah the army uses m1a2's and M1a4's alot.not a counter to a scare its too pathetic even its replacement the M4A is nothing compeared to it.only the ruger 225 is close.but you guys don't have that in large numbers so idk.you got a point though.
>>64213654You've got three options here, choose carefully:>He misspoke and meant 6.8, not 7.62 (most likely, IMO)>It's an M80A1 bullet hand loaded in a Sig hybrid case>Sig invested in specialized EPR manufacturing hardware for an improved 7.62 caliber bullet that the Army isn't buying and they can't sell to anyone else without acquiring IP from the Army
>>64205740Not just brick walls, but lvl V plates, aircraft, tanks and in fact nuclear-rated bunkers.
>>64216755> 7.62x39 and 9x39 are probably better So your issue with 6.5 Grendel is it’s too slow and then you recommend something even slower and with worst ballistics? God you are fucking retarded.
No.64216996NOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo !>mfw stage 3 and stage 4 armor stops 5.56mmand stage 4 cock blocks the 7.62mm be quite>we to pretend the 5.56mm and 6.5mm meme is till cute and vaild in the modern day.inb4 veitnam stage one armor fags get in here.and seethe at how their weaposn don't work no more.don't give them mill bros nightmares we have to play pretend.>inb4 'nam fags.
>>64217255Going fast is good. Being fat and slow is a small but important niche. 6.5G is in a spot where it can't fulfill either role. Save the .264s for the full-power cartridges.
>>64216876>>64217270I'd strongly recommend lurking for at least a few days before posting again.
>>64205284US army uses metric and has for decadesEven back in WW2, they had a nightmarish hodgepodge of metric and US measurements>75mm, 76mm, 40mm, 20mm, 37mm cannons>105mm, 155mm guns>3-in, 5-in, 8-in, 16-in guns> .30, .45, .50cal rounds
>>64217297>Being fat and slow is a small but important niche7.62x39 doesn’t do that. It’s a retarded niche in the context of this thread. Just admit you were wrong.
>>64205154And you can overseat the magazine preventing operation, when tapping it to make sure its in, like we are taught.
>>64206810Speaking of Big Plates and Bullets. What happened to AP anon? The negro who was developing a DIY round with Alibaba tungsten scribe tip penetrators?
>>64216876>>64217270unironic forums boomer or jeet?
>>64217789It's practically the same thing as .300 Blackout. Yes, there's better cartridges for subsonic use, but to claim that 7.62x39 is incapable of effective subsonic loadings is some variety of mental retardation.
>>64217297>intermediate cartridge>is between two extremes
>>64218120>SCHV cartridge>Not SC or HV
>>64218060And it’s worse than 6.5 Grendel for a combat rifle which was the discussion at hand you room temp IQ mongoloid
>>642181876.5 GRN from a 12.5" bbl at 200yds has more energy than M193 from a 16" bbl at the muzzle so idk what he's talking about >>64216755
>>64218187And 6.5 Grendel is worse than 6 ARC for a combat rifle, unless for some reason you wanted it to be subsonic, in which case it would be worse than 7.62x39.>>64218199No one is talking about energy here. If we were, then 7.62x39 would be obviously superior. inb4>but muh 300cpr grendel match loads are hotter than cheap steelcase milsurp!
What we really need is something inbetween 5.56mm and 7.62mm. Like the 6.5x39mm round from Arma 3.Actually why don't we just use 6.5 Creedmore? That's what we need.
>>64218329Sneedmore has all of the same problems as 7.62 but trades some muzzle energy for aerodynamics. At the ranges a designated marksman is expected to engage targets, sneedmore is generally inferior. 6.8 sigger is just flat out better than sneedmore as a military cartridge, the only problem with it (other than being worse than 5.56 and that it will absolutely get soldiers killed if it replaces 5.56 entirely as planned) is the rifle that's chambered for it.
>battlerifle fags when the battle rifle isnt from their childhood
>>64217923>>64217923yes i'm old. no boomers where kids that age you need to go older son. haha.protip your young>muh jeets.okay allied scum.what ever helps you sleepi was in the ferincommandos 52 gernaiderthen later the marines.i'm much older then even world war two kid.don't think about it too much kiddo.you might cope your self to sleep one day.>just assume this lies and cope and missinfomation it helpsyou can believe its jeets all day commiebut truth is hella donkey to move its a stubborn ass.don't think about it too much young anon.you where never born in my time.
No.64218447*53fuck my phone.how to use these things fuck.>battle rife fags.ah its just a nostalgia thing you wouldn't get it.they want to feel young again.its more than muh feelings its lost in time being too old to fight haha.but thing is i did fight. these guys are still in old folks home.I'm immortal so i didn't age. reality hitting them at home is hella drug.don't worry the'll forget we had this talk.most have daimentia by now child.many are still suffering from the after effects and illness and so on from war.officers don't have this problem.its purely a rookie problemnot to say that PTSD isn't vaild or made them weak it doesn't but reality doesn't care about your suffering anon.fact of life.war is just reality woken up.why aint eggheads not working on stage 5 armor?lazy much?
>>64218440I can like G3s and FALs while simultaneously recognizing we've moved on from that shit.
>6 kilograms>6 MOA>$6k
>>64203677Don't worry, it won't be in service for long. In 10 years from now the US will have reverted the back to AR-15s chambered in 6mm ARC.
>>64218329>>64218430We need a high pressure intermediate polymer-cased round in 6.xx caliber, firing a very light for caliber (~90 gr) high BC semi-jacketed copper-aluminum projectile at velocities around 2900-3000 fps. Basically 7.92 CETME but with less WW2 baggage. This is what .264 LICC and the 'AR-12.5' idea should have been.
>>64218600>This is what .264 LICC and the 'AR-12.5' idea should have been.Also the logical evolution of M855A1 if it was unshackled from the constraints of the M4/AR-15 platform.
>>64218238>And 6.5 Grendel is worse than 6 ARC for a combat rifleWhich I already said. Then you said 7.62x39 is better. And 9x39 for god knows why. >No one is talking about energy here. If we were, then 7.62x39 would be obviously superior.Quit talking. You have no idea what you’re talking about and just embarrassing yourself7.62x39:>122gr at 2400fps = 1555 ft lbs>154gr at 2100fps = 1516 ft lbs6.5 Grendel:>123gr at 2450-2500 fps = 1640+ ft lbsThat’s with a better sectional density from a small diameter bullet. Since you’re an idiot, higher sectional density means better penetration. You can also drop to a 90gr bullet at get 2900fps and almost 1700 ft lbs. >but muh barrel lengthI’m using 20” for both. Check it yourself. >https://www.grendelhunter.com/6-5-grendel-factory-load-data-project-20/
>>64218600We need a 100 ksi cased telescopic cartridge firing a 50gr .200 caliber vitreloy/boron carbide metal matrix composite projectile with a polymer driving band at 4000 FPS. It'll be only slightly larger than 5.7x28 and have greater armor penetration than practically any small arms cartridge ever developed. It's comparable in mass and velocity to M948 SLAP, while the composite bullet material is much harder than tungsten and exhibits the same sort of pyrophoricity and adiabatic shear banding as depleted uranium.
>>64207609Now try tromping through the wilderness with a full combat load, neverserved.
>>64203677
>>64218628>Comparing loads with massively different chamber pressures as if necking down the exact same case raises the maximum pressure it can support by 15k PSIAnd this is AFTER I preemptively called him out on it. Absolutely wild, holy shit.
>>64218700Why not both? I don't think armor penetration will be a big concern in the future. In actual wars, you are just as likely to hit the enemy in the toe as you are to hit them in the chest, and 99% of your shots won't hit shit anyway. Terminal ballistics should take a backseat to external ballistics, within reason. Your idea would work for some SWAT and other CQB-focused contexts though.I really like the 5.7x28-size thing. Imagine the magazine form factors. But it might be a generation and a half until we can feasibly do 100k psi.
>>64218770Cased telescopic can do 100k right this moment. There's no unsupported rim and webbing to blow out and the polymer cases obturates far better than any metal could.
>>64218788Sure, but the barrel would still kys itself after 500 rounds.
>>64218835CT doesn't really have throat erosion issues because the mouth of the case does what the throat does in a typical chamber. They end up with super long leades just by nature of the design, so if the leade opens up a bit it doesn't really affect accuracy.
>>64206260>>64208039>That’s quite terrible. 30” at 500 yards. So assume the guy’s head is a 7 inch diameter circle, hit probability is 5.4%. We are ignoring range and wind measurements as variables, right? Assuming you’re correcting for drop and drift perfectly?That is absolutely not how you calculate hit probability, either of you. You cannot calculate hit probability from MOA. You need the probability density and you can't get that from MOA.MOA measures extreme spread (distance from single two furthest shots along a single arbitrary axis) and both of you are (incorrectly) assuming that a random shot will land with equal probability anywhere in a circle with a diameter the size of the MOA centered on the aiming point (ie a uniform random distribution in a circle of d=MOA).The reason this is an incorrect assumption is that IRL rifles don't shoot a uniform random distribution (or even anywhere close to it) or in a circle. First, non-precision rifles normally predominantly spread across a single axis (not necessarily horizontal or vertical, but nonetheless along a single axis) which makes the shape a thin ellipse. Second, most guns shoot their shots along a more or less guassian distribution across that axis, which means that for a 20 shot group with say, 6 MOA, 68% of shots will be within about 1.61 MOA of the aiming point.Assuming there is no axis (so the group is circularly shaped), a 6 MOA rifle and a 7in spherical head, the pH for the head at 500y is about 42.5%.If you account for the real axis of the distribution, then you end up finding that around half of the misses become shoulder or body hits against a frontal or side aspect man-shaped target.For a 1 MOA rifle it's about 99.8%. 2 MOA about 89%, 3 MOA 74%, 4 MOA 58%, 5 MOA 49% etc.
>>64218869Interesting. Do you where I can read more about that, if you don't mind?I thought they'd cause slightly less wear since the gas expands much more by the time it reaches the throat.
>>64218883>You cannot calculate hit probability from MOA.I subsequently assumed the MOA was from 20 shot groups and that the accuracy distribution was guassian. They're the two extra pieces of info you need.
>>64218886I don't, sorry. I read a lot about materials science and obscure future tech and I don't keep track of my recreational reading.
>>64203677>6 kilos>weighs more than an AR10>doesnt penetrate level 4>shit accuracy and cant be a DMR>almost weighs as much as an LMG>cant lay down supressive fire>has 2 charging handles... because thats what was important to have on a rifle, not that actually works or doesnt weigh as much as a 1960s backpack radio
>>64207244every US general does
>>64219027>6 kilosBut anon, it doesn't weigh that.>weighs more than an AR10But anon, an AR10 weighs half a pound more than an M7, loaded or unloaded.>doesnt penetrate level 4But anon, it does.>shit accuracy and cant be a DMRBut anon, it's not meant to be a DMR and most of them shoot 2-3 MOA anyway.>almost weighs as much as an LMGBut anon, that's just not true.>cant lay down supressive fireBut anon, it can.Why are you lying so much?
>>64213793Ahh there it is. Typical eurocuck projection. Seethe monkey boy.
>>64219052>most of them shoot 2-3 MOA anyway.The M110 and M38 certainly don't.
>>64219114Most of the M7s shoot 2-3MOA, not some other hypothetical DMRs. The M38 is a 2 MOA rifle at best and only shoots 5.56, the M110 is fully a pound heavier than the M7 even before putting things on it.More accuracy is always better, but DMRs don't need to be sub-MOA, and none at all were until very, very recently. Only people who don't understand accuracy and don't do either long range or combat shooting would seriously think DMRs need to be MOA rifles.
>>64219052>But anon, it doesn't weigh that.3.8 bare rifle, +1k if suppressed,+0.9 for scope still without mag
>>64218600What 5.7 should've been. Something like 8mm Kurz necked down to a 6mm projo. You could even shoot it in a handgun somewhere between a Five-Seven and a MP7 in size, imagine getting SBR ballistics from a Micro-Uzi sized sidearm
>>64218700Trolling outside /b/ is bannable>>64218770Centurion is bringing back 5.56x30, interesting to see where that goes
>>64219592The M7 is 2-3 MOA with match ammo (which the army isn't buying) and 6 MOA with XM1186 (the stuff that the Army is buying). The M38 is ≤1 MOA with MK318 MOD1, which the Marines still issue alongside M855A1 (with which it gets 2-3 MOA).
>>64219850>Centurion is bringing back 5.56x30, interesting to see where that goesThey're advertising 55gr at 2600 fps from a 14.5" barrel, so I'm not really sure what the point is. .221 fireball (5.56x35) which is relatively uncommon but does have factory loads available, is faster with the same bullet and barrel while being nearly as compact. I guess the MARS is neat as a replica of an obscure prototype, but I don't think the cartridge really makes sense today or that it will catch on.Also>I didn't understand it so it's trolling
>>64219738Remarkable that putting heavy things on a rifle of unremarkable weight makes it heavier. Would you like to share any other pearls of wisdom with the class?>>64220076M7 demonstrated 2-3 MOA in actual testing with actual lots of service ammo.
Why did we waste millions of dollars on this piece of shit instead of just adopting the SCAR or AR10?
>>64205904This guy would make some cool fucking nose art
>>64217841There's been like four APAnons. There was one guy in like 2018, the korean in 2020-2022, then two more afterwards. They've either skipped town or gotten vanned. Basically anyone that gets far enough along making DIY AP ammunition that can seriously challenge ceramic armor is going to get feds at the door unless your OPSEC is watertight. In other words, don't post shit about it on the internet. Keep it word of mouth.Anyways if you want to actually pierce Level IV ceramics just buy a 26" .300 Weatherby or equivalent and reload M2AP to about 3,400ft/s. This gives you 250ft/s over the REV. J ESAPI's v50 requirement and 150ft/s over the Adept Colossus' v25. XSAPI v50 going off of the Buffman test is about 3,250ft/s. Keep in mind that he tested the XSAPI wrong and used mystery meat no-label soft armor. It needs milspec soft behind it, so to be safe assume v50 on XSAPI REV. A / REV. B to be 3,300ft/s. REV. C is same protection but drops 0.5lb, there is an alleged REV. D that ups protection but it's never surfaced. I think it never really got anywhere and they went straight to VTP.The only known Level IV plate that can eat this upfront, v0, 0% chance is the Protech 2230 - which was tested to defeat M2AP at over 3,500ft/s with no penetrations.
>>64218770DUDE, we HAVE to be able to penetrate the new PLA heavy flak jacket from 1980. Do you want us to win wars or what? The Chinese are well-known for caring a tremendous amount about the lives of their individual soldiers, those guys are going to be walking out in power armor!
>>64219850>Trolling outside /b/ is bannableWhat a shitfaggot thing to say.
>>64220158>M7 demonstrated 2-3 MOA in actual testing with actual lots of service ammo.Where?
>>64219850Fag
>>64220259>Where?Aberdeen you fucking retard. Where else do you think small arms introduction and fleet surveillance testing happens?
>>64220303Oh, so you have literally zero evidence for this claim you're making. Carry on.
>>64220309>Army UR was better than 4 MOA but I choose to believe it's a 6 MOA rifle because it aligns with my existing biases.
>>64209777>disgust>despair>hate
>>64220347The NGSW program had literally no provisions for not adopting the winner regardless of how bad its performance was. The Army had been talking for years beforehand how they were going to turn around their procurement practices and actually acquire something this time, and not have a repeat of oicw/acr/spiw/salvo/niblick/etc. They specifically did not test any of the NGSW prototypes against the M4's performance, knowing that there was a very high probability that the M4 would come out ahead in testing once again and make them look like clowns wasting money on stupid projects. The fact that the M7 is catastrophically bad as a general issue carbine and doesn't even meet the original requirements of the program is irrelevant. They were never *not* going to adopt one of these rifles, and the Sig offered the least bad combination of performance and licensing terms.
>>64220419It’s the torpedo scandal all over again. Why is the US Military so corrupt?
There's been a lot of back and forth in this thread, so forgive me if I missed it, but does anyone have a direct comparison of accuracy testing? Specifically, is there a line by line comparison between what Sig claims, what the Army found in testing, and what various individual tests have seen? There's a lot of distracting white noise in here and I don't know how big of a discrepancy there is between the Army, Sig, and everyone else.
>>64220419>The Army had been talking for years beforehand how they were going to turn around their procurement practices and actually acquire something this timePffff
>>64220497The Army is keeping that data close to the chest, probably out of embarrassment.
>>64220497Unlike a lot of manufacturers, Sig doesn't make any accuracy guarantees or even claims. Which isn't that bad in and of itself since most of those guarantees are actually bullshit, but it means there is no official baseline. The Army has not released any of their official testing data from the competition proper, and what little we know about its military performance come from a handful of interviews and papers from various government offices that generally slam it for having abysmal reliability but don't say much else.What we do actually know, however, is that the M7 is virtually unchanged from the MCX Spear apart from a heavier barrel, and there's a fair number of those out there. The general consensus on them is that they're passable as a range toy or hunting rifle, but are relatively fragile, a bit heavy for what they are, and not as accurate as one might assume given its market position compared to other AR-10 derivatives.
>>64220419>The NGSW program had literally no provisions for not adopting the winner regardless of how bad its performance was.Absolutely shut the fuck up and stop running around outrageously lying non-stop in every thread because you have a raging hard on for tiny carbines and handbags.
>>64220600>>64220605Thank you. OK so since neither the manufacturer or the Army will say how accurate their rifle is, I suppose we'd have to look at independent testing. Is there a wide discrepancy between the accuracy found in independent tests? This is pretty trivial to figure out if you can get your hands on the rifle and ammunition of course...
>>64220831Can you post the text of that section where it says that the Army is not allowed to procure any of resulting weapons if they all turn out to be horribly inaccurate?>>64220974It's a 2-3 MOA gun with match ammo, no one really contests that. Sigger shills insist that the XM1186 General Purpose cartridge and XM1188 Reduced Range cartridge are as accurate as match ammo, but that's a lie and there's plenty of evidence that it's untrue. Unlike the shills, I'll happily provide a third party video demonstrating its abysmal accuracy with the XM1188 cartridge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9DeCud0IaM
>>64220419Genuinely, I wonder how an M4 with a 20in barrel firing +p black tips and with an off-the-shelf suppressor would perform against the NGSW prototypes
>>64221135NTA but allow me to nitpick the language. The phrases>not allowed to procureand>allowed not to procuremean two different things, and in the context I believe the second one is more appropriate
>>64221173Black tip is kind of irrelevant since there's not enough tungsten in the world to use it as general issue ammo. But I think just a normal M4A1 SURG (also made by Sig) with M855A1 would solidly outperform all three NGSW prototypes in an honest test that accurately assesses the way small arms are used in the field.
>>64221210They really want to defeat lvl3 plates IIRC, I don't think steel core would be enough for thatIf there's not enough tungsten, what about DU? (assume we don't care about "muh radioactive boolits war crimez" PR)
>>64221190It's not appropriate to the situation since the Army stated several times leading up to NGSW that this wasn't just going to be a repeat of their last dozen rifle replacement programs that have cumulatively spent billions with nothing to show for themselves. They were clearly intent on selecting a new rifle regardless of whether it met their criteria or whether those criteria made sense. Hell, we know for a fact that the M7 doesn't meet all of the original program criteria, because Sig entered it with an 80,000 PSI cartridge to reach the required power, but by the time it was adopted they reduced that to 70,000 PSI.
>>64221238I know that military service doesn't exactly attract our best&brightest, but surely there must be at least a few non-demented individuals in the entire procurement programHow the fuck did anyone ok a program like that?
>>64221229DU is basically the perfect material for penetrators, and the US currently has millions of tons of it sitting in slowly corroding drums, contaminating the environment with toxic heavy metal fluorides. Processing it into bullets would be a great idea, but very expensive. On the other hand, natural uranium is far more common than tungsten, and most of the world's reserves are in western-aligned countries, whereas China has the vast majority of the world's tungsten. It would be very cheap to buy uranium ore from Australia to turn into bullets and there's no technical reason why it couldn't or shouldn't be done.Unfortunately, there's that whole "muh radioactivity" bullshit, despite the fact that a DU bullet is less radioactive than the average banana.
>>64218737Funny, but silencers should be adopted en masse by the military for basically everything.
>>64221265The fossilized army boomers daydreaming about the good old days of the M14 are exactly the ones who needed to sign off on it. Also the army in general is butthurt about the state of procurement, both because all of their cool toys ultimately end up canceled (Comanche, Crusader/NLOS-C/ERCA, just recently Booker, XM25, XM312, etc) and because they're getting bullied by Congress and other branches for never adopting their own wunderwaffe.It's not really an Army thing in particular, look at how things are going for the Navy: FA-XX probably canceled, Zumwalt canceled, LCS forced to buy ships they don't want and retire them after three years because the only way they were able to get the ship they wanted approved was to promise to buy the ship they didn't want in equal numbers. The Air Force usually gets their way, but there was that shitshow recently where they wanted to buy Super Tucanos but some senator threw a bitch fit because he wanted the manufacturer from his state to win, so they ended up buying some completely different piece of junk just to spite him.
>>64221274
