Medium bombers are the most underappreciated genre of WW2 warplane
>>64213554>I recognize that box art.This is now a box art thread. Pic related to the OP, of course.
>>64213554True workhorse thread?
>>64213554I love that plane. One of my all time favourites. Here, have a Do-17
>>64213554B-25H all the way. Every plane should have a 75mm cannon in the nose.
>>64214038It looks like its been smoking a cigar?
for me it's the vickers wellington
>>64214052How about a bigger Wellington?
>>6421405075mm cigar
Do these count?
>>64214016>Martin B-26 MarauderThe most under-recognized USAAF combat aircraft of World War II. ETO Crews fought valiantly and expertly on long range interdiction and high level bombing missions for four years, and battled Me 262s in the last phase.The final F and G variants were a slightly increased incidence main wing, a modification to the airplane mandated by U.S. Congress that degraded its top speed performance but made it (supposedly) easier to take off and land by decreasing landing speeds; when in reality by the time the F and G variants arrived by 1944 the flight deck crews themselves had already become experts at managing the slightly advanced learning curve required for safe and efficient operation of the Marauder, so the airframe modification wasn't required. (It was only the first year's operation of the bomber in USAAF service that had caused its non-combat loss rate to come to attention of top brass and stateside politicians that demanded "something be done" to the manufacturer's product, when in fact it was a skill issue)
>>64214091ok
>>64213554It's amazing that France could make great looking aircraft that were just as dogshit as their ugly ones!
>>64214038>75mm cannonanti-ship ? has it ever hit anything ?
Just as B-29 required a 3000m fully paved runway, B-26 should have had standards for advancing into the makeshift airfields of the South Pacific.
>>64214208The sea
CANT? more like CAN'T, amirite fellow tea slurpers?
>>64214208Thought they were more for hitting ground targets
YOU WANT MIRRIN DORRAS?
>>64214352TOO BADHERE BOMB
>>64214358FUCK YOU
Repeated low-altitude raids, even against Japanese AA fire, were dangerous, and targets requiring the penetration power of the 75mm gun were scarce.
>>64214016How did this get the reputation of being dangerous while also having the highest crew survivability rate for WW2 bombers?
>>64216928>SNIFF>>64216954High wing loading compared to other medium bomber. Most crew fatalities were stall or stall-spin accidents. The type was better than a B-25 in more capable hand, though, since it was even able to do evasive maneuvers including rolling over inverted (though it could not sustain inverted flight, like all aircraft of the era).
Wellington's airframe design is neat
>>64216954Basically a bunch of training accidents and ferry crews crashed them a bunch because they didn't know how to fly it. Didn't help that the people they were getting to teach them didn't have much experience with multiengine aircraft. When they started to rotate the guys who were flying them on the frontlines they were able to teach people that she was flyable with just one engine working and if they flew her at the speed needed she could be managed.
>>64217083Barnes Wallis conceived this style of construction. The man was a genius (and /ourguy/).Him, Nevil Shute and Anthony Fokker all had a correspondence with each other.
>>64214191I do think she was the real underrated workhorse of the US of WW2. She did have a steep learning curve especially with having a high take off and landing speed that most pilots were not used but in the hands of the people who flew her in combat she was loved. Supposedly they got a bunch of WASP's to fly them in order to shame the guys to "git gud" but not sure how much of it was propaganda and was reality.
>>64217185Then what are your opinions of the DB-7/A-20/P-70. I always thought that it was the real workhorse.
>>64217172Genius was one way of putting it. The guy was using the thin line between genius and madness as a skipping rope. If he had his way there would likely be cities in Germany unsafe for human habitation to this day.
>>64217193Definitely consider her a workhorse design but one that would not put in say an underrated category as although generally an ok design there was always something better around just not in the numbers people wanted. Basically every example I can find of her in action is that they were using her cause she was all they had available and as soon as there was an alternative they'd immediately use a replacement such as the Beaufighter, B-26, Mosquito etc. About the only group I can find who really liked her were the Soviets.
>>64214404Shirley they would find a use for h.e. rounds
>>64217193>>64217310>DB-7/A-20Definitely a workhorse. Although a light bomber by classification it was sometimes used in the 'medium'/level bomber from medium-to-high altitude role (<--alongside B-25 + B-26), and in the Pacific along with the B-25 medium served in the low altitude ground attack and anti-ship missions.Fun fact: when its replacement the A-26 Invader came along, USAAF pilots in the Pacific preferred the A-20 due to its in-line narrow fuselage seating arrangement (rather than the side-by-side A-26) for low level flight cockpit visibility.
>>64216954>>64217061See : -------- >>64214191
>>64217348I have heard that Soviets made some rather interesting modifications for ground attack and anti-shipping missions as well but never been able to find a good description of what they supposedly did.
>>64214208Yeah it was mostly intended for use against shipping and it was borderline useless. 75mm guns are a joke to a ship and good luck hitting anything a 75mm could kill on the ground with something that can only do a couple of shots per minute.
>>64214120Yes. All-gun-nose medium attack/bombers are pure sex and anyone who disagrees is wrong and has shit taste.
>>64217393Mosquito had a QF 6 pounder (57) mm so you got about a round a second rather than hand loading a 75mm. You would get a few hits on a good day with a compliant target.
>>64217651The 57mm was to punch holes in the sides of surfaced U boats so they couldn't dive without flooding anymore.
Medium bombers were generally garbage except for antishipping.
Tail gunner's position on a Mitsubishi G4M Betty, with the 20mm Type 99 cannon.
>>64217751Wrong.Medium bombers delivered ordnance in high level bombing missions and also interdiction against behind-lines enemy hard and materiel targets.B-26 Marauder and Mosquito for mere example (there are many others)Ju 88 was one of the Luftwaffe's primary workhorses throughout the war, even the late variants S and T 1944-45
>>64217651>mosquito mentionedmosquito mentionedmy favorite ww2 plane
>>64213554i think the infantryman and his rifle is underappreciated.
>>64217793The Ju-88 is the first true multi-role. It just does everything.
>>64217804This entire board is a rifleman's circlejerk, go to one of the other threads with that shit.
>>64217830>Junkers Ju 88>first true multi-roleProbably this. Mosquito entered service laterP-38 is the first true multi-role single seat fighter
>>64217792>breach by necessity has to be inside the aircraftImagine the EEEEEEEEEEEEEE
What is the COMFIEST bomber
How do I explain to normies that German only started their terror campaign bombing England in response to the Allies bombing Dresden and killing over 80,000 people without sound like a Nazi?
>>64218291Comfiest medium has to be a pressurised one.Ju288 comes to mind.
>>64218308Sound like a Nazi and thank them if they call you one.
>>64218308Dresden was much, much, later. Several years so. There was a bit too and fro with light to medium bombers before the blitz.
P-38 used the pathfinder type to carry out horizontal bombing, but were they not good at dive bombing?
>>64218308Pearl Harbor was revenge for the firebombing of Tokyo
>>64218376The aircraft infamous for the tail in the early models locking up in a dive?
>>64218386The japs get what they get for 9/11
>>642184539/11 was only fair in response to the bombing of fordow
>>64218405>"infamous"Compressibility at medium and high altitudes over 350 mph velocities was a phenomenon much studied during 1942-1943 by the American aeronautical engineers, it was unknown prior to then. Using both the P-47 and P-38 which at that time were the highest performing USAAF fighters that had experienced severe problems with the phenomenon, as testbeds>>64218376>"dive bombing"the P-38 was never designed intended for or used in that role (You)r post is nonsensical
I'm not asking twin-engine aircraft to imitate Stuka. A dive angle of about 30 degrees should be fine.
>>64218482A big problem with the late 1930s RLM was their insistence that Luftwaffe bombers (any size) be able to perform dive bombing missions.
>>64218291>>64218319definitely the B-29 (beyond topic of this thread)>Ju 288maybe but that project was plagued with engine problems (and a project design powerplant, Jumo 222 that was never delivered)Lessons learned and engineering from the 288 was partly implemented in the subsequent pressurized high altitude Ju 388
>>64217104There was also a major shortage of multi-engine trainers the entire war, and I think stick time may have also been prioritized towards the heavy bomber pilots (but I'm not totally certain of that). That led to pilots with insufficient hours in multi-engines getting into a tough design to handle on takeoff.Also, Greg brought up the point that V1 didn't exist back then, and doctrine was to pull back on the yoke the entire time and let the nosewheel come up at minimum rotate speed, in order to reduce the length of runway needed (it was assumed they'd be largely used from forward bases with short or grass runways). The result was that they would get airborne at dangerously low speeds, and if an engine let go, there simply wasn't enough thrust to recover. That doctrine would be considered a gross violation of safety standards as we know them today, but again, tricycle undercarriages were still relatively new and our rules today are built on the knowledge gained from decades of accidents.
>>64217348Huh. I thought that story was about B-25 squadrons in the Pacific refusing the A-26 because its longer nose blocked visibility during low-level toss/retarded bombing runs. Now you've got me curious as to which (or both) it was.
>>64217383>Slav HavocA Slavoc.
>>64218376You really need dive brakes for dive bombing. They keep your speed down enough to maintain control. They also add weight, and therefore don't make sense for a plane that isn't specifically intended to do dive bombing (which does include some multi-roles like F4U, but you have to pay a price for them, and that price can be steep).
There should have been more aircraft with underside windows.
>>64217651I like the fact it was a regular anti-tank gun taken off of its wheeled mount and fitted with an autoloader designed by a company that built cigarette making machinery.
>>64219252>B-25 squadrons in the Pacific refusingNever heard that one. And sounds unlikely (B-25s had noses of varying length dependent on equipment/modification, also the "refusing" if that's what story says)The A-26 Invader was criticized by early pre-deployment USAAF evalutions for having pilot visibility issues and the canopy was modified in early A-26B variants to a new clamshell design.
I just think it's neat.
>>64217393The gunships were built to fuck up the overgrown shitty sampan thingies the nips used for coastal shipping within the island chains. They wanted a bit more punch than a bunch of 50 cal for the job and 75mm HE fit the bill.For actual ocean-going tramp steamers they used skip bombing.Fifth Air Force loved the B-25G/H as it was basically a tailor made variant specifically for them. The thing is that nobody else liked them because they never really had those kinds of crappy slow wooden defenseless targets to deal with.
>>64213554isnt the mosquito the most famous british plane after the spitfire?
>>64217830>>64218132Depends on your definition as there are multirole biplanes for example that legit did everything in the 20's. Will say though that the JU 88 is the probably the first one that did everything well.>>64219322Average Bong design process really. If it had a box stuck out the back and mounted sideways would be complete.>>64219364The thumbnail is rather lewd!
20-40mm cannons were capable of both AP and HE shells and were suitable for anti-material strafing attacks, so it's a bit strange that they weren't used much by US attack aircraft.
>>64219570They tried.They didn't have reliable ones in service.
>>64219395pretty muchIn terms of WWII-era engineering, it's more significant than the Spitfire
>>64216954Because it was only introduced in 1944
>>64219735>it was only introduced in 1944??B-26 Marauder entered USAAF service in 1941.
>>64219735>Plane that was considered for the Doolittle raid only introduced in 1944What did he mean by this?
>>64214208>anti-ship ? has it ever hit anything ?IIRC there was a version of the DeHavilland Mosquito that was equipped with a 57mm cannon wich to this day remains the only plane to have won a an artillery duel with a warship. It stayed out of the range of the AAA of a (German...?) destroyer and scored a lucky hit in the ship's engine room which put it out of action.
>>64219584Yeah. Thats why 50cal is everywhere, Americans just couldn't 20mm so they perfected what they had.
>>64219780Making shit up bot is in a time loop. Probably had too much LDS.
>>64216954their first missions in europe were catastrophic. they were used without fighter escort for low altitude bombing runs and got ripped apart by flak and enemy fighters. they were subsequently confined to medium altitude raids on less defended targets and only flew with fighter escorts which improved their survivability.generally medium altitude was not a place where a ww2 bomber wanted to be, because thats the altitude where flak can still get you and where fighters perform best.
>>64219996Sure that wasn't the A-20?
>>64219914depends how rigidly you define artillery since Mosquitos and Beaufighters used to fly through flak from small german/italian warships, set their superstructure on fire with 20mm cannons then leave without elaborating.
>>64219996>without fighter escortThere was no fighter escort for Allied bombers over occupied Europe until 1943USAAF B-26 Marauder squadrons operated without fighter escorts for most (except, for example, on strikes against enemy fighter airfields) of their missions until the end of the war. 'Fighter escort' was largely reserved for the heavy bombers>'medium altitude'That was the prime operating profile for the B-26 Marauder, around 15K ft
>>64220034His post is nonsensical. Certainly doesn't refer to the B-26 Marauder
>>64220067>>'medium altitude'>That was the prime operating profile for the B-26 Marauder, around 15K ftyeah and as i said not a good place to be, which is why the b26 was confined to b rank missions WITH FIGHTER ESCORT even at the end of the war. it was a very very vulnerable plane that would have performed abyssmally if it had been the main bomber of the allied air forces. stop sucking its cock.
>>64220148The B-26 has a very nice cock and her cock shall be sucked!
>Bristol Blenheim
>>64220957Very nice pre war and nice to see one flying now.Its a berm were you expecting a berm.
>>64220957underrated. Love it.Here's another pretty Italian lady. Three engined bombers just scream interwar bomber and they're so cute.
What game gives the best bomber experience? Been flying wimpys in IL2 Tobruk
>>64217651>>64217795>In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! >It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. >I turn green and yellow with envy. >The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, >and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again! >What do you make of that? >There is nothing the British do not have! >They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops! >After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set, then at least I'll own something that has always worked.>t. Herman Meyer
>>64221088You had an equivalent piece of art, you fucker just let politics get in the way of it's destiny
>>64221098>The Nazis should just have been less of a retarded, self sabotaging, political bitch-fightI think that might actually be more central to their identity than the German supremacism Anon. I'm not sure what they would even be without the non-stop squabbling.
>>64221088Wir haben Moskito heim im Reich.
>>64218291Arado Ar 234 B-2>engines dont make much noise>pretty much cant be intercepted
>>64219395Is the Mosquito really a bomber? It's not something I'd throw under the same label as an He-111 / B25 / Welly / G4M
>>64222793Yes a medium bomber based on mid-20th century classification and its payload. Like the Ju 88 as discussed upthread it was used and modified for a wide range of other missions
>>64221098the He 219 could ? have changed the air war in Europe had it not been for RLM and backbiting/infighting. Could have had it in wide squadron service by mid-1943 and the Bf 110G / Ju 88G etc. wouldn't have been neededOne of the greatest 'what ifs' of WWII aviation
>>64213554for some reason i spent a week or more learning that plane in a simulator, the aiming reticle for the bombardier was a mechanical calculator made with cable strings and some dials, the cable marked the release point of the bomb, extremely archaic for ww2, that is not a good example of a good medium bomber, it worked carrying torpedoes good enough thoug
>>64222832....
>>64214120Not really, the A26 was more of a close air support aircraft rather than a dedicated bomber.
>>64222832Something like this?
Mosquito had its big moment in a series of special raids on Gestapo bases, but it appears there was too much collateral damage.
>>64221098The only place I've ever seen this plane even mentioned is in Biggles
>>64222871>blahblahplebbitspewblahWrong.A-26 Invader was a light/medium bomber given the 'A' designation in USAAC's World War II era system, same as the A-20 predecessor. (It had more power and a heavier 4,000 lb-class payload so it could ? be classified as a ''medium" bomber but the 'light'/'medium bomber' nomenclature was abandoned soon after WWII with the development of jets and multi-role combat aircraft)Like the A-20 the A-26 was built in the B and C variants which had a gun nose and clear perspex bombardier nose, respectively.Its bomb load capacity and powerplants gave it the capability, performance of a typical WWII medium bomber (such as the Mosquito or B-26 Marauder <--which it shared same engines with).In Korea the C variant was used for night bombing missions. (aka level bombing from low/medium altitude) After 1947 the 'A' designation was changed by USAF to 'B' (and the older B-26 Marauder was retired hence confusion sometimes between the two types), it was still a relatively modern and new piston engine type so kept in service through the 1950s, and even resurrected as the heavily modified B-26K for Indochina. Many other small countries used the A-26/B-26 Invader and it was also a favorite of covert action/contract missions (Bay of Pigs, Farm Gate) throughout the 1950s and 60s
>>64223065What did the 'A' stand for?
>>64223203Airplane, duh
>>64223203
>>64214038for me it's the 12 50cal
>>64223203With US designations during WW2? Fuck knows. Could be any of the following as there is no rhyme or reason at times:ArmyAirplaneAttackerAmerimuttAnusol etc
>>64223055It isnt flashy, iconic or wunderwaffery, so it largerly gets ignored in popular culture, but it was arguably the most capable night fighter of the war (with de Havilland Mosquito and the P-61 black widow as acceptable other answers) , or at least definitely the axis side. And it has great aesthetics.
>>64218274THE WHAT NOW?
>>64224755Savage treatment by history, it was ahead of its time, and I think it's beautiful
I love the look of Ki-49
>>64224755>>64225086It actually was one of Germany's 'wunderwaffe' except the RLM refused to acknowledge that at the time it was most needed during its early engineering development (wasted at least a crucial 18 months mid-war), and by the time they gave the program attention funding and logistic/developmental backing it required, it was too late.See : >>64222818
>>64221266"You have a nice sole advanced polymer wood laminating glue factory in the entire Reich here. It would be a shame if something happened to it..."
>>64221266>>64226545not Kurt Tank's finest moment (it was cool looking...), yes there were materials-mfg problems as well
>>64225114i liked them back when i played WarThunder, fighters will come to you, hoping for free kile and you could outmaneuver them and sit on it tail and wait for forward gunner to finish them
>>64217185>ywn have a plane wife
>>64227970In case you are wondering that pic was taken from 2016 by a woman who poses as an aviatrix as well as a model for other vintage events.Pic related is the real Shirley Slade. She flew P-39's and B-26's.
>>64217830>The Ju-88 is the first true multi-role. It just does everything.ThisIt says a lot when nightfighter pilots prefered it to an actual heavy fighter like the bf110It's kinda the underappreciated workhorse for the german side
Medium bombers are retarded and there is a reason why they were abandoned.>to small to carry a significant amount of ordnance>not enough range to reach far into enemy territory like strategic bombers>still need fighter escort>still need as many crew members than a strategic bomberOne of the main reasons why Germany couldn't invade Britain was because non of their planes was able to get much farther than the coast of England, therefore all of Britain's infrastructure, industries and military bases in the North were safe. Unlike Germany that got obliterated by thousands of strategic bombers.
>>64229160l-lewd!
>>64229177>l-lewd!well can you blame the passionate Italian for falling for the tall and slender exchange program beauty that towers over him?>no wonder his brakes failed
>>64222985One of the mosquitoes crashed and busrt into flames in a nearby school. 86 children were killed after subsequent passes by other bombers mistook the building on fire to be where the target was…
>>64229201If only we had a drawfag that could do bomber plane yuri based on these images.
>Mmm, my comfy Heinkel, fly me to a land of pleasant dreams
>>64229059>>64219780WW2 aviatrices existed on a level of based that is difficult to comprehend by most mortal minds.
>>64229287It would be great if we got something that told their tale properly. Wouldn't want Hollywood though to touch it, they're physically incapable of telling their story properly just like they will never be able to do the Red Tails.
>>64217195Do tell
>>64229297Sister Mary Aquinas Kinskey deserves a special segment in that retelling of the their tale. So do the female pilots of the Soviet Union. I mean, fuck the Soviet Union, but WW2 Soviet female pilos were worthy of admiration.
>>64229303To put it bluntly anon, you know the grand slam and tallboys? Those were miniaturized versions of what he had in mind. The idea was they'd penetrate beneath the city, cause earthquakes that would completely destroy the foundations and unless you essentially filled in said holes you wouldn't be able to build on top of it. Think of the giant sinkholes caused by mines collapsing.
>>64229336Source? Not doubting you but my inner autistic gremlin is fascinated with playing whack a mole with German cities
>>64218482>I'm not asking twin-engine aircraft to imitate Stuka. A dive angle of about 30 degrees should be fine.The ju88 did that and more, for >>64218568reasons, Udet i think requested itRandom new people coming in and requesting new features tucked on is basically why the ju88 is such a jack of all trades
>>64214028I made this pic in 2011, as I share a soft-spot for the Do-17. For both its look and in its internal layout.Even back then, when I considered the idea of jet pack troops, or of fully autonomous UAVs, I could tell that the only real advantage they'd provide over "conventional" munitions would be precision. The Norden bomb sight can't adjust bomb path...Most defensive systems rely on weapons being very limited in terms of fine decision-making; most weapons, you just fling it at the target and hope. So, exploitable weakpoints exist on all vehicles...But until recently, nobody's been able to get up close fast enough to not get hit, but then shift flight mode to also hang around long enough, to make that necessary targeting adjustment / decision.Looking at how the quadcopters are used in Ukraine since 2022, I feel vindicated, but also like I missed a bus for getting my story ideas out.
>>64217792This bad boy was dangerous, allied pilots avoided the six of Japanese twin-engines at all costs because most of them had a 20mm there. The rest of the bomber is conversely weakly protected, with .30 cal machineguns.
>>64214340Correct, represent crumpet crunchers
For me it's the P1Y Ginga (Galaxy). Small sized medium twin engine bomber with a hefty payload (about 1,000 kilograms). It had a highly aerodynamic, cantilever-styled frame. Possessed excellent speed, extremely long range, excellent agility and beside operating in the medium bomber role could carry out torpedo bombing and, to top it off, dive bombing (for this it was equipped with a special set of perforated dive brakes under the flaps). For its small size and form it feels like an impossible machine with a lot of crazy capability. Its biggest drawback was that it was supposedly plagued with maintenance problems, but it's not clear if those are legitimate problems or an outgrowth of the general deterioration of wartime conditions at the time this bomber was introduced to service.
>>64229160when a male and female plane love each other very much….
>>64229171Whatever you say, sport.
>>64229171The He 111 and Ju 88 had the range to strike deep into England retard what the Germans lacked was an escort fighter, without escort sending the bombers that far alone was suicidal
>>64229171>>still need fighter escortLook at me, i'm the (night)fighter now
>>64231498>1944>using decimetric instead of centimetric radar in a converted bomber instead of a purpose built heavy fighter ishygddt
>>64229201Knowing italians, that plane is raping the other one
>>64231561>a purpose built heavy fighter>heavier than the converted bomberis she a widow because she sat on her husbands face?
>>64214352>>64214358>>64214365Actually the guy in the meme is standing in front of KI-61 Hien, a single engine fighter. Also these oldschool memes were dope. What happened? All memes now are soijak garbage or /pol/shit. Did /pol/ actually destroy memes as many predicted.
>>64230849the Ju 88's advantage was that it was the most advanced of all the mid-30s Luftwaffe Schnellbomber designs, and was able to be adapted and updated without major changes to the basic airframe overall. Junkers/the RLM didn't set out for that to be the case but that's the way it turned out, it was a success in every role it adapted to. Pundits and historians retrospectively have suggested the Ju 88 as a "great example" of Luftwaffe/German philosophy of using one basic airframe to do-all when it was merely fortuitous (<--paraphrased reference Green 'Warplanes of the Third Reich' p. 448)Later iterations such as Ju 188 and the high-altitude Ju 388 series also made the most of the basic design; some of the later bomber variants required an underfuselage pannier for equipment / ordnance, and the final Ju 88 S and T had a redesigned forward fuselage canopy and nose eliminating the chin gondola for less drag, weight and increased performance. It was one of the top 5 greatest and most significant warplanes of World War II
>>64217795i love everything about mosquito aside from it being called the mosquito which ruins it for me
>>64231755Does Hornet work better for you?
>>64231834hornets are only slightly less bad than mosquitosalso single seathow can i bomb people without hanging out with my best buddy in the cockpit
>>64231850Brigand might be more your speed then. Not quite as delightfully zany as its Crimson Skies namesake, but still an excellent choice for shooting up commies in Malaya with your buddies.
>>64231874>room for TWO frensi love itthanks anon
>>64230759Apologies anon I made some errors. Grand Slam was the bomb proposed, but it was meant to be deployed at an altitude of 40,000 ft from the Victory Bomber using gravity alone to burrow itself deep inside the ground before detonating.Book is British Secret Projects: Fighters and Bombers 1935 -1950. Bit Janet and John though and there were other books out there that go into a bit detail but can't remember for life of me what they are called. Generally you'll find the specs posted in blogs across the internet since one of the proposed versions of the bomber looks straight out of Crimson Skies.>>64231625Don't give drawfags any ideas!
>>64231874>able to house a rear gunnerThat's one over the Mossie
