The Army is testing a new configuration of the M7/MCX SPEAR in response to feedback that the gun is too heavy.>Barrel is shortened to 10.5 inches>Stock is now fixed telescoping instead of folding>Lighter BCG/Upper/Barrel>Shorter SLX Suppressor with heat shield to mitigate glow when it gets hot>3.4kg/7.5lb empty weightSupposedly still hits 3000+ fps even with the 10.5 inch barrel
>>64251242>10.5 inch .277 FurryuwuFucking why, make it longer
>>64251242Here is the config being tested at Fort Benning by the Army Marksmanship Unit with a Vortex "Eleanore" 1-10x, EOTech OGL, and a Strategic Sciences MFMD.Not the intended accessories for general issue, but it is pretty interesting that they have all that
>>64251242wahahahah 10.5 barrel in extremely high pressure cartridgewhat a great idea
>>64251242>let's make it even weirder
>>64251242remove the stupid fucking rear charging handle and keep the side charger
>>64251242I legitimately get angry every time I look at this thing
Have they fixed the fact it literally falls apart when you're shooting it because the recoil is so retarded? This is actually, unironically, one of the worst weapons ever made. If the INSAS, L85A1 and FAMAS didn't exist... Actually scratch that, it's up there. In the Hall of Fame of shit. It's not even like we can argue the USA doesn't have a small arms industry or skills or data.
>>64251363Who we you're chinese bro LOL
>>64251242>10.5"what are those retards doing????
>>64251368I didn't say anything positive about China you fucking retard. There are plenty of reports on the M7 being shit.
>>64251329Kinda rad looking desu
>>64251329I kind of dig the stuppy battle rifle vibe.The supressor ruins it though.
>>64251242>lighten everything on the fuckhuge PSI rifle roundHow will the recoil be now?
>>64251406worse than webmrel
>>64251329I don't care how effective the suppressor is, it looks gay as fuck
>>64251242Calling it now. It's going to be cancelled.
>>64251329WHY IS THE MILITARY ADOPTING A VORTEX FUCKING OPTIC? ITS A CHINESE COMPANY
>>64251415Give this thing to every glue eater, what could go wrong
>>64251427IIRC they only use a Chinese OEM for their cheaper consumer optics like the Strike EagleThe Razor and other mid-tier series is made in Japan, using the same OEM as the Nightforce NX8The NGSW optic is made in the US as a requirement by the US government
>>64251466I understand that, but on principle its fucked. What would happen if war broke out between the US and China, would we nationalize the factory?
>>64251242>they didn't fix the fragile and generally awful handguard mounting abomination >no mention of parts breakage issues>no mention of barrel wear issues>super-duper $9,000 gimmick optic with internal ballistic computer is still AWOL>still using 1950s-spec 20-round mags (with no over-insertion stop)Wow, it's now 95% shit rather than 100% shit. Very impressive.
>>64251242So the Army basically copied Garand Thumb? This is basically the Assaulter carbine with a suppressor, no?https://youtu.be/FBw9iLa1vJA?si=iL8xiRiL2XlNRbV3
>>64251564>copied Garand ThumbYou think Garand Thumb made that himself? Sig has had a shorter barrel variant ready for a while known as the MCX Raptorhttps://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MCX+Raptor
>>64251242Telling that the optic is not on it.
>>64251593This is at the Sig booth at DSEIThey're not going to shill an optic made by another company when they have their own division for that
>>64251484>would we nationalize the factory?Probably.
>>64251484Vortex does not own the Chinese OEM that makes their budget optics nor does that Chinese company own VortexThey have a business agreement and if the US goes to war with China, that business agreement will probably be terminated and Vortex continues making their optics in the US, Japan, and PhillipinesThe budget line probably goes away for gets outsourced to someone else but all the mid-high end optics won't be affected
>>64251374Doesn’t matter, you’re still chinese
Who's letting these fuckers cook? At this point its ever more apparent the M4 concept is perfectly fine for infantry fighting roles and AR-10s or AR-15s optimized for range do the range role just fine? We are chasing the Afghan dragon so fucking hard here for guns that will burn themselves out.
>>64251837They just bought more AR-10s exactly for this reason. They've failed at replacing it for decades because at the end of the day, it's a gun that shoots. What do you need more than that other than refinement, modularity and the ability to switch out calibers?
>>64251242>completely redesign the basic AR pattern so just you can have a meme folding stock>get rid of the folding function anywaylollmaolmfaorotflmao
>>64251870>Want a compact riflePut a normal suppressor on it
>>64251902The thing can't even fire without the suppressor. It's designed not to function properly without it because it's just far too advanced.
>>64251242Pippi longstockings lookin ass
>>64251242
What the actual fuck are they doing
>>64251991We should have adopted ar180s and stoner63s there I said it
>>64251242Cutting the weight is good. These guns are hardly issued with enough ammo to burn barrels anyhow. I wonder if they're also moving away from the NGSW program's optic. You really don't see that around much anymore.
>>64252008Not just adopting the XCR like they should.
>>64251242>Supposedly still hits 3000+ fps even with the 10.5 inch barrelDoubtful, GT got ~2700 out of the 9" in the above video with the lighter 113gr copper training round.
>>64251363I'd expect the hand guard retaining system to be fixed in one of the next few design iterations. Maybe they already did without mentioning it. SIG's stock method is just really bad.
>M80 out of a 16" AR-10 is almost 2700 FPSAll this for something harder to control which matters at range, which is the whole point over just using M4s.
>>64251242>>64251991Fitting that America got the Toadline of rifles.
>>64252015*ftfy
>>64252053Better performance than a 7.62x51 rifle but in a 10.5" barrel?
>>64252008Flailing.
>>64252053>the pointThe point was to adopt the LSAT rifle that the US Gov't spent over a decade developing with Textron.This was after years and years of the Army putting out new requests for rifle caliber replacements for the M4, and eventually just figuring out their own specs for the dream cartridge they wanted. Textron was absolutely the face of the program early on, and were the only group entering the program with a basically fully developed weapon.Then we got hit with COVID and it fucked the project timeline up + Russia invaded Ukraine and the Chinese started getting frisky with Taiwan so everyone wanted new acquisitions to be done ASAP.Textron's gun failed for whatever reason and they had to drop out. Past that point it was getting whatever was the least bad of the two options, and apparently that was SIG's gun. This rush is probably why SIG still has a hard time making its cartridge.Why ideas like a universal onboard battery and powered rail system was dropped. Why the optic still has big issues with working. And why the M7 has so many teething issues right now.
>>64252072Barrel length is for special forces and police, infantry don't need to worry about it.
>>64252086This is an engineering problem. Right now special forces and police get short barrels because they are willing to make compromises for it. The ideal is having as short of a barrel as is possible, before those compromises have to be made. In this case, the Army thinks it has started to handle the issues with having very short barrels successfully. In that case going as short as possible is just beneficial.
>>64252086The barrel length and other change were to get weight down.
>>64252101At a certain point when you're going over M80 recoil you don't want an ultralight gun.
>>64251242>>64251343>need more range and muzzle velocity>send chamber pressures through the roof>gun too heavy, shorten barrel>muzzle is a flashbang simulator now; add suppressor>gun now approximately matches 20 inch M16 in size and performanceI hate government procurement
>>64252080STOP "developing" QUOTE UNQUOTE FUCKING STUPID SHIT AND JUST BUY SOMETHING CHRIST
>>64251242>10.5>80k psi holy fuck, imagine the va claims
>>64251242>Supposedly still hits 3000+ fps even with the 10.5 inch barrelThink they had to increase the pressure back to 80ksi to manage that? I wonder what their plan is for when the recoil is even more punishing with a lighter gun.
>>64252127>gun now approximately matches 20 inch M16 in size and performance>shorter>double the projectile weight at the same velocity (and your bullets are not ballistic potatoes)>less signature despite being a shorty because of the suppressor
>>64252160They can't be serious, right? It's the equivalent of an MC-51 but for every soldier in your army.
>>64252196Those only had an 8" barrel.
>>64252225Oh excuuuuse me :P
>>64251484>What would happen if war broke out between the US and China, would we nationalize the factory?Obviously we'd give it to China. Its premises would be Chinese territory, like an embassy.
>Army’s newest rifle for soldiers dropped from independent testing programhow bad this POS really is holy fuck lmao
>>64251373Isn't that going to make barrel life even shorter than it already is?
>>64252295Only if they're increasing the pressure again to compensate for it. Barrel wear mostly happens at the other end, where the muzzle is located doesn't make a big difference.
why is procuring a new rifle is so complicated for the us army holy fucking shit.they've been at it for 20 years with the XM8, then it was the SCAR, then it was the HK416, then whatever this contrived bullshit battle rifle abortion is supposed to be.if they want a bigger cartridge cant they just buy an ar10 of some flavor and call it a day? we've had them for 70 years and they work.
>my conspiracy theorythey are making it more retarded just so they can dump the project soonerimo they should make a hybrid case 5.56 and 7.62 with new ap projectiles
>>64252323>cant they just buy an ar10 of some flavor and call it a day?No, because no one wants to haul around a 20" musket. The Army has been hacking their rifles down shorter and shorter for decades, they're not about to undo all of that. The point of the M7 is to get 20" .308 ballistics from a now 10.5" barrel. The reason that's been so hard is because it's a terrible idea.
>>64251242I've done Sig saar and the army's job for them... adopt the retarded named hyp AR-10 in .277 fury with a 13.7 inch barrel and the new MFMD square suppressor. Open up a new contract for a thermal with a 640 core and maximize battery power efficiency and usage and a rmr type red dot on top with night vision settings and 40k hour battery life. Welcome to the 21st century.
>>64252080the murder of the LSAT is an irredeemable tragedy. We were robbed of belt fed carbines. Btw i wonder why they never got to building their bullpup concept? The push through mechanism lends itself great for a bullpup. Similarly, I wonder why their rifle entry used forward feed when they could have used aft feed and unfucked the ergonomics. In the patent where picrel comes from it shows how they thought aft feed was much better for the carbine.
We must go back.
>>64252352https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/31/32/d5/f24ac6ce2eabc6/US20230035677A1.pdfexplanations at the very end for each design. I repeat. We were robbed of belt fed carbines that weighed less than current weapons.
>PIPEven the US military isn't immune from corporate flogging.
>>64252367It was pretty cool in BF4 or whatever it was.
>>64252323too many cooks in the kitchen and too little of an idea of what future wars will requirethe harder acquisition is, the more careful they feel like they have to be because even getting one swing was hard and expensive enough, the harder they make acquisition
>>64252041Aren't the training rounds downloaded significantly to avoid excessive barrel wear?
>>64252337>a 20" musketthats just the standard length of an M16, the gun the US military has been using for 6 decades.it probably would've been lighter, too.
>>64252323The M7 was the first serious effort to replace the M4.>muh M8A fuckwad general's pet project that got swept inder the rug because he tried to sidestep the procurement process and likely broke the law along the way.>muh 416The M7 is ironically a result of HK's shilling.
>>64252354wowww ur so cool and neofudd, do you live in a sick hermit cottage in the mountains?
>>64252378The US Army has used the M4 for longer than the M16.
>>64252368The M16A2 was originally called the M16PIP at one point, or at least features from that were integrated in the A2.
See I told you if they really cared about the non machine gun part of the competition, they would have chosen the Bull-pup.
>>64252384they still had m16s in both iraq and afghanistan, im sure they can manage a "20'' musket"
>>64252394They wouldn't have, because it was even worse.
>>64252395Are you familiar with the concept of US military branches?
>>64252395The Marines are not the Army.
>>64252394They don't care about the machine gun. It doesn't even have a quick detachable barrel. It's more like a heavy belt-fed rifle like the one the Rangers use but worse.
>>64252375>what future wars will requirepray and spraythat's it for the last 80 years but fudds gonna fudd and the marksman myth is still alive
New Machine guns matter more than rifles.
>>64252394and I told you that you nerds only hate the sig because you were mad the bullpup lost.
>>64252417and it's worse than m249
>>64252401acting like a smart redditor when you're wrong only makes you look like a faggot, it takes 30 seconds on google to find pictures of us ARMY soldiers in iraq carrying M16s, negroidhttps://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-dpa-a-us-soldier-of-the-task-force-1st-battalion-1st-field-artillery-53841762.htmlhttps://media.gettyimages.com/id/72452893/photo/bagdad-iraq-u-s-army-3rd-division-3-7-soldiers-move-to-secure-the-vip-terminal-of-baghdad.jpg?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=d4xB35tiK97R8ai5OB7-UzQiPW7XyHzv9quF3XpSDEg=
>>64252409you're a nigger too
>>64252401>>64252409>umm ackchully dont you know branches?!here, have one more you stupid faggot redditorshttps://www.war.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2002059075/
>>64252417... so? Does this mean the Army should handicap everyone else in the squad for the benefit of having worse SAW performance?
>>64252395>room clearing with full-length M16Do you own guns
>>64252458Erm, you were saying. Short stocking is the remedy, its not ideal, but you're point shooting anyway at that point.
>>64252458>room clearing with rifles and not with a grenade in every roomdo you even warfare bro
>>64252470>short stocking is the remedyTrench foot is a completely different problem
>>64252479but what about those hostages bro do you even cqb bro
>>64252413>It doesn't even have a quick detachable barrelanon I...
>>64252494>The barrel on the M250 light machine gun is not considered to be a quick-change barrel and the stock is collapsible but non-folding
>>64252470People room cleared with bolt-actions at one point too, that in now way means it was something that was fun or easy to do. So again, do you own guns?
>>64252378Try having a 14.5" or 11.5" and you'll see how quickly a M16 starts to feel like a fucklong piece
>>64252508You are hiv positive and will never be in combat
>>64252332>imo they should make a hybrid case 5.56Sig is doing it
>>64252513I accept your concession
>>64252504Yes, but, young anon, room clearing is never easy or fun. I do suppose the best option to clean a room would probably be a short submachine gun with a high rate of fire, but this is not a good overall mix for an infantry rifle. My experience clearing rooms was with a suppressed M4A1, which was just as long as an M16 with a KAC NT4 hanging off the end of it. In any case, if I had to clear a room with an M16, I wouldn't feel terribly disadvantaged.
>>64252521You accepted hiv in your ass and lost everything. Post dd214 or get b&
>>64252508Everyone likes the short gun until its time to be in combat and all of a sudden you have to shoot 300 meters.
>>64252494None of the NGSW-AR submissions had one because it wasn't a requirement, which allows for significant weight savings. The KAC LAMG and FN EVOLYS and a few others don't have one either, all because barrel overheating was an extremely uncommon occurrence for M249 gunners during GWOT.Which prompts the question: why not just give everyone IARs? Clearly SAW gunners were pretty much using their guns like BARs if not like assault rifles outright. You don't even really need a belt-fed for this.
>>64252525the soviet shock battalions were into something i guess iirc russia has also begun producing 11.5 variant of the ak-12 for it's shock troops
>>64252535who wants to tell him
>>64252508They just won't get it.
>>64252545I was thinking more the 11.5"
>>64252539I would not hold Soviet/contemporary Russian infantry tactics/organization as a good example of well thought/balanced or forward thinking infantry tactics. My point is, training with what you have (as long as it is not a steaming pile of shit) is fine. An M16 isn't bricked when you bring it into MOUT, and well trained troops will succeed with what they've got. I still don't like the M7.
>>64252536The solution is abandoning the SAW concept entirely. Retvrn to 13/14-man squads with three fire teams, two rifle teams with a 5.56 DMR and an IAR each, and one team with a 308 or 338 MMG and two ammunition carriers.
>>64252592How would organize the ifv squads tho? It's already a mess
>>64252592So, USMC infantry squad organization, based.
>>64252498Sig's original NGSW-AR submission had one, the Army told them to take it off because they wouldn't be issuing space barrels. It's still got the QD latch, it's just hidden under the handguard and there's no more handle.
>>64252601>they wouldn't be issuing space barrels.lmao what's the barrel life of the m7 again?
>>64252498>>64252536
>>64252596Well it's not like mechanized platoons are starved for organic fire support.>>64252597Yup, aside from the fact that the Marines only have 308 MGs at the platoon level. The USMC is on the right track. They dropped the 15-man squad idea and are back to 13 guys now, but every squad will have an Organic Precision Fires specialist). Exciting stuff.
>>64252601>>64252611I wasn't blaming it on Sig. All I'm saying is that the Army doesn't seem to want the unique capabilities that belt-feds offer, like quick change barrels. They're adopting a weird doctrine and want oversized belt-fed rifles for some reason.
>>64252592>13/14-man squadsUnwieldy squad size
>>64252349i find it hilarious that ar10 was designed with an in line stock and recoil spring to reduce recoil plus a much more gentle di gas systembut at the same time army chose to adopt a rifle that does nothing to reduce recoil and is overall way worse than a gun from 1960s
>>64252060god this thing fucks so hard
>>64252688Not at all, with an assistant squad leader the cognitive load on the E-6 will probably be the same or lower than it is now, and modern combat on today's transparent battlefield is very different from what it used to be. You need more specialists, more firepower, and, unfortunately, better casualty absorption.
>>64252592>338 MMGhonestly, this seems like a bad ideathe ammo is too heavy, even 3 man fire team won't be able to carry much 338 should replace 50 BMG imo
>>64252646Companies trying to work with the government on replacing the M4 end up in the same boat as Star Wars actors.
>>64252536The LAMG very much has a QCB>>64252611That's the "World" model that Sig offers to everyone but the Army because the Army are the only people who don't want a barrel change handle
>>64252060Army, it's not too late.
>>64252611Not an M250
>>64252060I love the way this thing looks, but unless the new cartridge makes at least 2900 fps from a 16" barrel, it's not worth it. If it does we can comfortably say that external ballistics are solved for the next 25 years.>>64252747>The LAMG very much has a QCBSo it does, thanks for the correction. I am sorry I ever doubted you, Stoner-sama.
>>64252323The problem is everyone has a different idea of what the future is. Ask one guy, its a return to battle rifles, but this time we'll make them short instead of pikes. Ask another guy, it is electronically fired bullpups. Ask another guy it is just rebarreling M4s to use midlength gas systems and calling it a day. Ask another guy and you'll get another answer entirely. Ask 10 people, you'll get 11 answers. I'd say we should go for sanic sped and try chucking elongated 77gr 5.5-6mm projectiles at like 3500 FPS just to see what happens.
>>64252811>unless the new cartridge makes at least 2900 fps from a 16" barrel,it's about 2850 fps(115 gr) from 16 barrel but it's only 62k psi vs saar's 80k
>>64252646>>64252605Once you put a 3D printed suppressor that costs as much as the rest of the gun put together on the end of your MG, you don't want Pvt Jose or Tyreese leaving that in the middle of nowhere because it got too hot or heavy for them to want to carry anymore. The move to universal silencers means that now the barrels those silencers are attached to become non-disposable, at least until you get back to an armorer.
>>64252738Yeah, 308 is good enough. Down-pressured 277 can fill the same niche and solves the BC issues, actually maybe 277 could redeem itself by replacing 308 (perhaps not worth it considering NATO, but the US has given them the middle finger already). Polymer case ammo would have been especially excellent for machine guns. Man, the brass can go to hell.
>>6425260510,000+ rounds supposedly, but even if it's only 1,000, it doesn't matter. A squad is only going to be carrying 400 rounds of belted ammo, so even if they fire it all off they'll have an opportunity to swap the barrel when they resupply.
>>64252871>when they resupplywow, nice strategy you got there just use 100000 lories for every rifle company in the age of drones, bro
>>64251837What they should do is a mid length gas system m4 chambered in something akin to 22 arc with an alloy case like those shell shock cases. 14.5-16in barrel, stubby suppressor, upgrade the stock and put an mlok rail on it and you're done.
>>64252843Weren't these the numbers for .264 USA? I vaguely recall something about .264 LICC being slightly smaller, but I'm probably misremembering.
>>64252034They idea of heavy, expensive, high tech optics seems like a bad idea for general issue. People say the ngsw is a bad AR but a good DMR, but I don't think that's even right. The 6.8 could be a decent cartridge, but if you're using it as a dmr round there's no need for it to be that high pressure; a DMR ngsw should have a longer barrel and only one charging handle. The optic would make sense on a dmr though
>>64252879Just stick a spare barrel on the drone carrying ammo to them or whatever. They only have 400 round available to the beltfed during a firefight, and after the fight they'll have the opportunity to swap the barrel.
>>64252377Not to avoid barrel wear, but to avoid destroying steel targets at ranges that were designed with 5.56 or wooden shoothouses6.8 really chews these targets up
>>64251329That looks really cool.
>>64251242>Lighter BCG/Upper/Barrelohhhh boy durability issues here we come!>>64252086Current wars have shown PGMs are overwhelmingly favored at range, to the surprise of nobody. Yes, jamming will prevent some of that, but that doesn't change the fact that it'll be the preferred method. Infantry fighting infantry at extended ranges with just rifles is not common, especially as we increasingly urbanize, and even then, a squad doesn't need to give every member the ability to engage at range while sacrificing their maneuverability indoors. If we're talking SEA, fighting against China, it's literally either jungle warfare, shantytowns or built up cities. Engagement ranges remain at 300 yd or less.
>>64251242Could have simply adopted a bullpup. Steyr have a prototype, Thales made someting AUG based too. Israelis would absolutely love to reap some shekels for a 6.8mm Tavor. Do it. Late millenials grew up with Halo, they'll adore bullpups
>new caliberBut why?>muh range average tyrone jose mcnugget jr won't shoot that far anyway, plus mortars drones and gpmg already dominate that range >muh IV plates mo small bullets will do mo damage than less biggah bullets
>>64251242Holy Jesus they made this thing worse. >barrel lifespan unfixed (impossible to fix on account of the cartridge) and ballistics worsened (admittedly not by much)>accuracy problems not addressed>still has two charging handles instead of removing the lazily implemented and fragile AR charging handle >rail flexing/unscrewing not addressed >no particular effort to mitigate recoil except maybe the lightened BCG >removes the functionality of the folding stockAt least they did improve the SLX. Also>Fixed buffer tubeDefeats the whole fucking purpose of using an MCX rather than AR action. Might as well have procured M110s or G28s chambered in the TV cartridge, they'd be better shooting and equivalent/below the weight of this anyway with similar ballistics, albeit longer. Also, I'm pretty sure there's now commercial ballistic comp sights that have similar capabilities to the XM157 but are lighter and way cheaper.
>>64252015Bring back LSAT. Start over with a 5-6mm bullet and a ~400m effective range. Use guided munitions or MGs for longer ranges.
>>64251242>wahhh its too long and heavyYOU HAD THE FUCKING FIX IN YOUR HANDS AND YOU TOSSED IT AWAY
>>64252853or every barrel simply comes with a suppressor permanently attached
>>64251324That's what she said
>>64253894They should have at least forced Sig to use the polymer ammo.
>>64253894They should just show the army a new RM277 with brass ammo and a good trigger. Why doesn't the army ever do redos? Why do they always just quit if the first competition is unsatisfactory and instead give feedback to all three competitors before choosing a winner?Iirc the only reason this thing lost is the plastic ammo kept deforming and jamming the rifle
>>64253926That was for Texron. The RM277 was rejected mainly for not having a beltfed LMG to compliment it.
>>64253115>Use guided munitionsOh god no. Not even the US army is rich enough to use PIKE for every contact further than 400m.
>>64253894What makes you think that was lighter or shorter?>>64253919The polymer ammo isn't capable of 80,000 PSI. It wouldn't have been able to meet the performance requirements in the Sig.>>64253926How would making the losing competitor worse by increasing the weight of its ammo by 40% make it worth adopting?>Iirc the only reason this thing lost is the plastic ammo kept deforming and jamming the rifleDo you have a single fact to back that up?
>>64253062No one uses 9x39, longer rifles are very popular in Ukraine.
>>64253971>The polymer ammo isn't capable of 80,000 PSI.It is. We use it for 50cal already. The polymer round for the RM277 wasn't spicy because it didn't need to be, but a redesigned round made for the sig spear is possible.
>>64253992What pressure do you think .50 BMG operates at, anon?
>>64254005Like 200k. It's not relevant, though. The chamber is what takes the pressure. All the polycase ammo has to worry about is the rear of the case blowing out, which is why it's made of steel.
We coulda had caseless telescoped super 5.56 featherweight lmgs by now bros, what has this country come to?
>>64254104>Like 200k. You know you can just go look it up instead of making an idiot of yourself, right? It's not classified or anything.>It's not relevant, though. No, it kind of is in this case. Seriously, don't take my word for it, just go to the SAAMI website and look. Or if that's too much effort, just glance at the Wikipedia page, it's right there.>The chamber is what takes the pressure. All the polycase ammo has to worry about is the rear of the case blowing out, which is why it's made of steel.This would be true for Textron's CT ammo with a fused case and fully supported chamber. It's not true for a metal/polymer hybrid case and bottlenecked chamber. There's the interface between the polymer body and metal head to worry about, and pressure leaking back past the neck.
>>64254210>You know you can just go look it upI know what it is. I was just being cute. It's still not relevant. The polycase can be made to do 80k psi. You only have conjecture to say otherwise.>There's the interface between the polymer body and metal head to worry aboutLike, this isn't a problem at all. There's no problem with pressure leaking past the neck either, since the casing seals against the chamber when fired.
>>64254227Okay, so if you know that .50 BMG is actually significantly lower pressure than .308, then you know that there is no evidence of a hybrid polycase cartridge being used to 80k+ PSI anywhere. Why do you think that is?
>>64252195
>>64254237The chamber is what takes the pressure, and the endcap is steel. We use it in 50cal, we use it in 6.5CM, and we aren't even close to the limits of the material. I'm pretty confident about this. We need to switch sig over to the polycase rounds.
>>64252080>Textron's gun failed for whatever reason and they had to drop out.No shit they failed, their gun was the most overengineered POS since the G11. Sometimes you gotta stop making space guns, and just make good guns...
>>64254360Good guns already exist, the DMV employees in charge of weapon design for the US Army just think they know better than what already works.
The handguard is still the worst wobbly POS.
>>64254412When did this "the handguard sucks" thing come to light? It seems like everyone is saying it now.
>>64251242>Supposedly still hits 3000+ fps even with the 10.5 inch barrelxBuffman gets 3150 FPS on a good day with the 120 gr EPR using a 16” barrel. Going to a 10.5” will likely drop it to ~2750 FPS.Penetration will now be worse than M855A1 out of an M27, and external ballistics will be barely if any better than 77 gr TMK.>Lighter BCG/Upper/BarrelYeah I don’t think that will help heat management or barrel life lol>Shorter SLX Suppressor with heat shield to mitigate glow when it gets hotSo even more flash, blast, and noise on top of the increase from the reduction in barrel length lmao. Not to mention an absolutely hideous amount of recoil.At this point you could use a SCAR that weighs the same, gets better bullet performance with much longer barrel life, kicks less, and has less muzzle flash.Or you could just forget all that nonsense and use an M4 instead.
Why does it need to have that much chamber pressure if the goal is strictly muzzle velocity. Like what is the thought process of making something so inefficient to achieve something so simple.
>>64254320Once again, if that's how it works, why are there no high pressure polycase rounds? You can test this, just buy a few rounds from TV and fill them with pistol powder.
>>64253926>>64253960where are you people getting this info from?
>>64254360Textrons guns have designs that are SIMPLER than conventional designs. The chamber slides with a very simple cam and there is no separate extractor and ejector, nor rims to tear etc.
>>64254440there are videos of it
>shorter barrelGreat, the 6 MOA gun is now an 8 MOA gun.
>>64254620From wild speculation on 4chan.>>64254634All else being equal, a shorter barrel increases accuracy, it doesn't reduce it.
>>64254647>Bullet less stable = gooder
>>64253971>>64254237Not impossible, but need research for small calibers.
>>64254652A longer barrel doesn't stabilize the bullet more. You can half a half inch barrel and spin the bullet enough to stabilize it. Longer barrels are for more power, not more accuracy.The only time a longer barrel is more accurate is when it increases your sight radius with iron sights.
>>64254657Those aren't plastic, they're more like fiberglass.
>>64254669>fiberglassNo, it's a combustible case...
>>64254647>shorter barrel increases accuracyto where, 100 fucking yards? It's supposed to be an infantry rifle. Not an MP5
>>64253971>The polymer ammo isn't capable of 80,000 PSI.SIG marketing giives its regards.
>>64254591>why are there no high pressure polycase roundsTextron already made them for their gun, actually. LM didn't need to make their rounds for the rm277 spicy because it was a bullpup. Is the penny dropping yet, Anon?
>>64254681>Okay, a shorter barrel increases accuracy, but then you won't have the velocity for long range shots!Yes, that's what I just told you. You're welcome for this little lesson in internal ballistics. Now, if I can direct your attention to the OP, supposedly the M7 is still going to be the same bullet over 3000 fps, which is barely any slower than the original requirement. How they did that and what compromises were involved is an open question, but clearly the barrel length is not causing problems *directly*.
>>64254628Are you recycling the hot take of some guntuber?
>>64254569>Penetration will now be worse than M855A1 out of an M27>120gr projectile (with better bsllistics) will perform worse than a 62gr projectile at comperable velocitiesAnon I...
>>64254634The M7 is a 2-3 MOA gun with the 120gr EPR.
>>64254707If TV could do it, they would have.>>64254714Scroll up and read the conversation. Textron's bullet design is completely different and comes with substantial benefits, including the ability to handle higher chamber pressures even than Sig's hybrid case.
>>64251329>Army Marksmanship Unit I hope this is just a random oldhead officer getting on the gun for a photo op, or else this would be fucking embarrassing.
>>64254740It's a 2-3 moa gun with match ammo, see the garandthumb video. There are no third party tests with the EPR.
>>64254754It's some Lt General visiting during the Benning Maneuver conference.https://www.instagram.com/usamu1956/reel/DOeyeU8kWHy/
>>64251415Add a fucking muzzle break for the love of god.
>>64252043It's not just the hand guard issue, but the optics fall off while firing and the mounting breaks due to the recoil shaking it too much. Again, sure it can all be 'fixed' but you can't call this a good firearm, especially when the USA has the experts and data and history.
>>64254927You gotta love how anon just makes shit up.
>>64254927>mounting breaks >recoil shaking it too muchat least try to use terms that gun people use qhen you just make shit up
>>64251242They'll do literally anything but procure a bullpup
>>64254647>>64254658If more barrel = more velocity, and more velocity = more effective range + flatter trajectory at range, you could call that more accurate if you consider any factor that makes the bullet land further from the point of aim an accuracy factor. Semantics game aside everything that makes a shorter weapon more difficult to shoot ie less weight for more recoil impulse and more powder turning into flash and noise instead of energy also counts for the accuracy of the gun, because a human is shooting it.
>>64254990Or, without any mental gymnastics, you could consider that .277 Fury is a 1000m cartridge while the M7 is a 500m gun on a good day, so losing a bit of velocity won't hurt too much.
I'm not an expert in anything when it comes to the new US military rifle program, but doesn't that gun just look kind of retarded?
>>64255111I am an expert on everything when it comes to the new US military rifle program, and it absolutely looks kind of retarded.
>>64255020Does it need to be a 1000m round if it will never get there accurately though
>>64255162No, which is why cutting the barrel shorter isn't a problem. Trading some velocity for better handling and maybe a bit of mechanical accuracy isn't a bad thing here.Although a better solution would be to start over without the retarded cartridge.
>>64254647No, a shorter barrel generally means less accuracy. You get less rifling engagement which means poorer bullet stabilization, resulting in better group size and consistency. You also get more bullet velocity which is not only good for long range but also for shooting at moving targets. You could also argue that a shorter barrel will cause more recoil and muzzle flash which also negatively impact the accuracy of the shooter.Shorter barrels are only good for reducing weight and making the gun more usable in confined environments.
>>64255213* worse group size and consistency
>>64255213>You get less rifling engagement which means poorer bullet stabilization, resulting in better group size and consistency. That's not how it works, look it up.>You also get more bullet velocity which is not only good for long range but also for shooting at moving targets.These are bandaids for inferior marksmanship, not accuracy.
>>64255162>shush, you
>>64255213>No, a shorter barrel generally means less accuracy.Fuddlore
>>64254440The SIG Spear handguard has always been notoriously finicky. You basically have to locktite them in place, and even then they like to loosen themselves up under recoil. People weren't sure if the Army rifle was the same, but now that a few examples are being shopped around it has the same issues.
>>64255213It genuinely only takes an inch at max of rifling to impart a proper spin on a bullet. For pistol style projectiles (short and fat), even a snub nose can get effective competition grade accuracy. If anything the higher chance of some manufacturing defect messing up the spin stabilization means that a longer barrel is more likely to be less accurate, than a shorter barrel.
>>64255213No anon unless we are talking about extremes barrel length does not effect the mechanical accuracy of a gun.Where barrel length does come into play is barrel harmonics and the effect of velocity on wind drift (especially with older less aerodynamic bullet designs).
>>64254360Dumb faggot, go back to AARPCOM
>>64255331>If anything the higher chance of some manufacturing defect messing up the spin stabilization means that a longer barrel is more likely to be less accurate, than a shorter barrel.Now lets not go overboard either a barrel has to be FUCKED for that to happen, chink levels of keyholing and bulging and waroing from overpressure... like the Sig Spear. But judicious catridge design + not making barrels in some shithole would fo away with those issues. You cancel out both problems if you just trade a few grains of powder for a couple more inches in length that ultimately don't make the gun unreasonably more unwieldy.We can't escape the fact that 5.56 was simply meant to come out of a 20 inch barrel and the fact that going down to 14.5 is still good enuff is just a happy accident, people got used to rocking carbine barrels and forgot they are a compromise and not normal.
>>64251837>>64251862>>64252884IMO a perfect 'compromise' is a round that takes the M855A1 to its logical conclusion, while not being bound by the limitations of the AR-15 platform. See: >>64252060 >>64252843I would like it if there bullets were lighter for the same BC though. They could use aluminum. I'm talking like 85 grain projectiles..264 LICC already uses cases reminiscent of NAS3 for higher max pressures and weight savings, but with polymer case or even a cased telescoped platform you can get vastly enhanced performance compared to 5.56 AND carry more ammo.
>>64255402>I'm talking like 85 grain projectiles.What's the point of the 6.5x43 then? Just use some 22arc shit
>>64251242Hello /k/.I don't really give a shit about guns.They're for gay tranny faggots in the Ukraine.But I wanted to see what the most modern thing there is coming up, and Google gave me this. And even as a non-gun normal man with a big penis, I could tell that this design was for homosexuals and U.S. Marines goying it for their Torah.Because I'm merciful to the mentally ill, I'll give you and the U.S. Army some free advice.Don't let furfags design your small arms.Hope this helps (it won't). Shalom.
(you)
>>64255438I don't know honestly. I just hear a lot of back and forth about how .260 caliber is slightly better for spin stabilization and such. Maybe 90-95 gr is a better range for wind resistance.22 ARC is fantastic though, especially if it runs that fast from shorter barrels. It's already rather high pressure.
>>64255462based
>>64251427>they're a chinese companyVortex headquarters is literally across the street from the KwikTrip where I buy six-packs of Spotted Cow. As far as I know, China doesn't have KwikTrips or Spotted Cow, and my driver's license says Wisconsin on it, sooo.....Also, two of my Vortex scopes were made in the Philippines and another was made in Japan. My Leupold binoculars were made in China, though.
>>64255462Marines are using the 416 you fucking gay retard
>>642555266.0/6.5/6.8mm aren't magic numbers. The reason why those calibers are popular are because of the ratio of length to width to mass. If you change up one part of that equation, like making an extremely light bullet out of a low density metal, you have to change everything else as well.
>>64251324Seriously. >gun too heavy>durrr cut the barrel down.Is there any reason they can’t omit the can and add 5 to 6 inches to the barrel?1) 5-6 inches of barrel is lighter than 5-6 inches of can2) better efficiency means the same ballistics from a smaller and lighter case means a smaller and lighter action, or just better ballistics from the same cartridge.But I gather that the can is non-negotiable? Why?
>>64251335It’s like buying a lambo, then exclusively driving it around in residential neighborhoods with Speed bumps everywhere. 6.8x51 is a gangster cartridge but is absolutely nerfed from a short barrel.
>>64255912Because the pressure that .277 is loaded to is so fucking retarded that without the suppressor it creates disorienting amounts of concussion and noise.
>>64255926With a 10.5, I bet it makes a shitload of blast even with the can, lmao.
>>64255918The whole point of the .277 cartridge is to achieve long barrel .308 ballistics from a short barrel.
>>64255402>.264 LICC already uses cases reminiscent of NAS3 for higher max pressures and weight savings, but with polymer case or even a cased telescoped platform you can get vastly enhanced performance compared to 5.56 AND carry more ammo.A p90 layout CT rifle is the answer. LSAT was always the way forward.
>>64255912>Is there any reason they can’t omit the can and add 5 to 6 inches to the barrel?the weapon is too loud to fire unsuppresed. For real.
>>64255840that's for mostly for FMJ or monolithic bullets if you have to spin it too fast, there are some ways of getting bullets lighter7.92mm CETME had a light aluminum core and a copper semijacket to provide more rotational inertia, acting like a flywheel essentially
>>64254669They are nitrocellulose. Aka wood (plywood).Though wood can be counted as plastic (polymer) material.
>>64253971Sig's ammo isn't 80k psi either. They dropped it down to 70k a year or so back.
>>64255926Do we have any good footage of it being fired without the can? I am actually interested in the data they collected on this to make them realize, "o fugg we uh gann :DDD"
>>64254360Wild take. The gun is mechanicaly much simpler than your standard AR15.Which isn't to say it works well, fuck only knows how it actually performed, but you're still wrong.
>>64256092Watch the GT video >>64251564 with an even shorter barrel.
>>64254749>Scroll up and read the conversationOk, so some retard claimed polymer casings can take 80k psi easily, lied about chamber pressures of other callibers, got called out and refused to elaborate further. Hope that wasn't you, because that is nigger behaviour.
>>64255955vgh...
>>64255955>>64256137have mercy on my penis
>>64256122No, I'm the one trying to explain the difference between Textron's 100k-psi-capable polymer cartridge and TV's not-100k-psi-capable polymer cartridge.
>>64254727>comparable velocitiesThey’re not comparable velocities. M855A1 out of a 16” barrel is clocking just over 3000 FPS. As I just explained, XM1186 out of a 10.5” is likely to do around 2750 FPS.As it stands, even the XM7’s 13” barrel doesn’t seem to beat M855A1 out of a 16” by very much. You can speculate about the reasons why, but the results on plates are not encouraging. Dropping by ~200 FPS is likely to put it below entirely.
>>64256380If the 113gr training ammo does ~2750 out of a 9" the 120gr projectiles will be going faster out of an 10.5"
>>64256395>>64256380This is also glossing over 62gr vs 120gr
>>64251242Someone needs to fucking lynch whatever general is making all these decisions
What's the point of putting such a long can on it if you're gonna make the barrel short
>>64256395>>64256401Again, we have literal armor testing videos of this “120 gr vs 62 gr” and the difference isn’t vast. Is it because of the penetrator metallurgy? The shape? Who the fuck knows, but it doesn’t work as well as you’d expect it to. You can guess that maybe it does 2800 FPS instead of 2750 - okay, whatever. That isn’t likely ti meaningfully change the equation.
>>64255977Nitrocellulose is not "plywood", it's guncotton, an explosive. It's a fiber, and shell cases are made of from woven fibers supported by resin, the same way that fiberglass is made of glass fibers supported by resin.
>>64256401Absolute Mass is irrelevant. Sectional density and sectional energy are what matter. There is nothing magical about a thing having more mass
>>64255950It's gotta suck so much
>>64255926I think I have a solution: rechamber in 5.56mm
>>64253894damn that's an idea. yeah you could just move the weight of the action further back so it FEELS lighter! plus you could get a longer barrel. i bet you could get the same FPS with lower pressures that way. instead of having to use the weird half-steel half-brass cartridges, you could probably use something more conventional. hell i bet you could make em out of plastic, practically! haha, just a joke.
>>64254620An anon claimed to be a man in the room. 1. The army was pretty set on the TV bid, but would have liked a belt fed to compliment it and while impressed by the 240 upgrade wanted something better2. Higher rank stepped in claimed that SIG was the winner no further discussion was to be had
>>64256805It could be worse
>>64252592>Retvrn to 13/14-man squads with three fire teams,The Army NEEDS to do this. The final version of picrel will carry 14 fully-equipped soldiers. It would work for the USMC too. On a related note, the NGSW's inelegant FDE GWOT+ bullshit is incompatible with the military's new near-future Pacific warrior aesthetic. The Textron gun was a perfect match appearance-wise, GD a close second.
>>64256809>The army was pretty set on the TV bid, but would have liked a belt fed to compliment it and while impressed by the 240 upgrade wanted something betterGD/TV had a huge missed opportunity with the LWMMG. They could have made a sub-scale version in 6.8mm/.308, and if that thing won the trial it would have in turn advantaged the regular LWMMG for the .338 MG program.
>>64256862It wouldn't have met the required power with TV's ammo. That's why it had to be a bullpup. And that's why it couldn't have been belt fed. But people claiming that it lost because it's a bullpup or not a belt fed are full of shit.
>>64256882The RM277's barrel was only 18.5" long, the M240 Lima's is 20" and would work out to about the same length as the M250 (17" bbl) with the chode suppressor.Also, check this out. https://www.tvammo.com/weapons/rm834It can be chambered in 6.8TVC
>>64256451>we have literal armor testing videos of this “120 gr vs 62 gr” and the difference isn’t vastWell at least we know you are just trolling.
>>64256843Kek. Glass half full kinda guy. I admire your outlook.
>>64256122>polymer casings can take 80k psi easilyThey can, though.>>64256362Yes, they could indeed take 100k psi. Why don't you believe this?
>>64256968Because they can't, which is why TV has never once claimed that they can.
>>64256843>>64256959The bar has been beaten down into the ground so hard that the XM29 looks like a completely feasible concept. Like shit man, it only weighed like 18 lb loaded, a pound lighter than a fucking unloaded SAW, using 90s technology, and could literally kill people from a kilometer away without them ever peeking out of cover. WTF is the Army doing?
>>64251242did they fix the rail that was only being held securely in place by those two incredibly tiny screws?
>>64256979>“We’ve developed and are currently validating a revolutionary 6.8mm case design to support the (GD-OTS) submission for the NGSAR program that we feel cannot be achieved using cases built from brass or even a combination of steel and composite,” said True Velocity Chief Marketing and Sales Officer Pat Hogan. “We think it will change the paradigm of cartridge design and cause the ammunition industry to reconsider what is ballistically achievable in small arms ammunition.”>Hogan indicated that early testing has shown the new case design is capable of withstanding in excess of 80,000 PSI of chamber pressure, while generating muzzle velocities in excess of 3,100 feet per second.https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/true-velocity-forms-strategic-alliances-with-dillon-aero-and-general-dynamics/331240
Here's a video showing a Russian Granit plate getting hit by M80A1 at 3500fps without a soft armor backer at 45 feet (he round fails to penetrate)6.8 EPR can't pen quality armor without tungsten https://youtu.be/bgaQzMjsQo4?si=IsLvBOhAe3WcU3Ek
>>64257016I hadn't seen that, I concede.
>>64257045I probably should have led with that source, to be honest.
>>64257020What the fuck is even the point of the 6.8 EPR then? I thought the whole idea was that with an incredibly hot loading and a hardened steel projectile, we could make an effective AP round without the need for Chinese tungsten. If we'd need to source huge quantities of the stuff either way, why not just make more M993/M995?
>>64256968>>64256979How much pressure can steel case take? There is your answer, since TV polycase was likely only limited by the case head. There's a good chance they didn't use above 65kpsi to reduce recoil (very important in their bid) and barrel wear. Also, 6.8TVC was designed to be compatible with .308 bolts and you can convert most .308 guns to 6.8TVC with a simple barrel change. Well, it's probably easier to convert belt-feds.
>>64257020The idea that 6.8 was supposed to defeat level 4+ armor with a steel penetrator is entirely a myth repeated on /k/ until anons believed it.
>>64257059That's just it anon, try to think about what a soldier will have to deal with while fighting in MOUT.
>>64257064To be fair, it's a meme that even Army brass has been repeating, and it doesn't really make sense that they'd make a whole new general issue cartridge to have better penetration with the 0.001% of issued rounds which are tungsten core.
>>64257077>that even Army brass has been repeatingIs it? I have never seen anyone able to produce a quote.
>>64256843Slap a drum mag on this and the ngsw is solved
>>64257090>>64257077>>64257020I personally asked a major at futures command this question and he vaguely said they had a captured chinese plate it could penetratethey dont seem to have any real reasonremember the NGSW program was centered around a projectile that the competitors would have to use. They are stuck with the 6.8 projectile from the start. Most likely just a legacy of GEN. Milleys 7.62 battle rifle program
>>64254569>buffTo be fair, is he handloading or actually shooting M1186 that fell off a truck?
>>64257020Don't forget that these are actually meant to be used with both soft armor and a 1" thick climatic amortization panel (trauma pad) to reduce backface deformation. The plate under combat conditions would do significantly better than it did here, tested in a standalone configuration.The downside of Granit plates is that they're heavy versus American counterparts. They're otherwise fairly stout.>>64257185The Chinese armor standard is very bad and at best it would be a "Special Type" rated for 7.62x54R Type 56 API, which is significantly weaker than .30-06 M2AP. That makes things a lot easier for XM1186.
>>64257185>GEN. Milleys 7.62 battle rifle programHoly treason batman, as if I needed another reason to hate that sack of shit.>The saga of the ICSR has been a turbulent one. In May, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley told lawmakers that the current 5.56 mm rounds chambered in the M4 and M16 assault rifles ubiquitous among infantry troops (namely the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round) cannot penetrate modern enemy body armor; the same month, he told Senate Armed Services Committee members that Maneuver Center of Excellence officials at Fort Benning, Georgia, had engineered a new 7.62mm round capable of defeating plates similar to U.S. military-issue Enhanced Small Arms Protective Inserts.>Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn translated Milley’s testimony into a directed requirement for a new 7.62 mm rifle. Shortly after his appearance before SASC, the Army issued a request for information to “identify sources for a combat rifle system” that could deliver up to 50,000 weapons over a truncated timeline; in August, the branch issued a formal solicitation with a simple objective: “to acquire and field a 7.62mm ICSR that will increase soldier lethality.”So basically Milley insidiously hijacked preexisting programs to fund what is effectively a bog-standard battle rifle, sneaking it through with several excuses and the 'squad weapon' label as an IAR-esque switcheroo except completely fucking retarded.
>>64257224He's handloading the real bullets that fell off a truck. No one knows what velocity they're actually supposed to be reaching though.
>>64257241>the same month, he told Senate Armed Services Committee members that Maneuver Center of Excellence officials at Fort Benning, Georgia, had engineered a new 7.62mm round capable of defeating plates similar to U.S. military-issue Enhanced Small Arms Protective Inserts.Sounds like 7.62x51mm M1158 ADVAP. I get they're playing the XSAPI rating close to the chest (3x M993 @ 3,050ft/s+-50) and wouldn't want to say anything about that, but if M1158 is only required to defeat ESAPI then we've got problems. The Chinese can easily manufacture XSAPI-level plates.
>>64257245He's probably not using the right powder and the round is going significantly slower. Regardless, the armor pen of the M7 is thoroughly fucked. They should have issued it as a DMR instead of an M4 replacement and jacked the barrel length up to 20"
>>64257259>They should have issued it as a DMR6 M O A MOAthis turd is legit worse than m14
>>64251242The entire project was fucked from the get go and everybody on /k/ knows it. All these 'improvements' only fuck it up more.
>>64257259He specifically loaded it to 3150 fps because supposedly that was how fast the 6.8 EPR was supposed to be, but after reducing the pressure, reducing the bullet weight, and now reducing the barrel length, who knows how fast they're actually going now? OP says 3000+, but based on what evidence?
>>64257265yeah, issued it as a DMR and tightened that up too. So we've got a rifle that can't pen armor, weighs dramatically more in a time when recruitment is falling and fitness is poor, can't place hits accurately, burns barrels like a motherfucker, reduces the ammunition load of the soldier when Ukraine shows you need more ammo, not less, and makes the loadout heavier when it gets to get lighter.It's a fuck up. Imagine how many rounds of M995 they could have bought instead and just stockpiled. Meesa propose they surplus all ESAPIs prior to REV. G and sell them on the open market to raise funds to abort this program.
>>64257271I think maybe it's supposed to go faster than that. Do I have proof? No. The amount of misinfo going around the M7 though suggests there's some Eglin chicanery afoot and they're using misinfo to hide its actual capabilities. Just a thought.
>>64257273You forgot about the vortex wunderwaffe >that doesn't work
>>64257288Yeah, I did. They shoulda just thrown the reformers a bone and issued AA-12s at the squad level, for anti-drone work with tungsten 00, I mean fuck it'd work better than this.
>>64257252The Chinese will never field any kind of non-torso plate in significant numbers. And even if they did, you can tell your guys to aim for the crotch where they'd have soft armor at most. Plates don't protect soldiers like that, they're for mitigating the risk of hits that would otherwise be instantly lethal, and they don't even protect the head. Most of the rest of the body is CASEVAC's job.
>>64257283>it's not boomer bureaucracy shit, it's a complex government conspiracy that just so happens to look like it!mhmmm
>>64257283The original request for proposals included a mandatory velocity with a government-provided 135gr projectile. I believe that 3,150 was the required velocity, but it's been a while. You can go track the documents down if you care.
>>64257311i dont
>>64251242I feel I'll be seeing this sucker soon on Forgotten Weapons, speaking of which, they have a cool episode on DSA making a Titanium FAL.
>>64257265Don't worry, by the time this is over they will just give up on the whole thing and go back to upgraded M14's. Whatever is produced will probably be the equivalent of a hypersonic claymore, taped to a collapsible stock, with a two million dollar laser designator, that allows a 3 inch bayonet to be mounted in any direction.
>>64252611That grafted on AR collapsing stock so high up looks so fucking ugly it insults my aesthetic sense.
>>64257241Milley tried to get a general issue 7.62x51 battle rifle adopted by the Army? Wtf Based? Sad we ended up with this 6.8 shitfest instead of a nice standardized NATO caliber AR-10...
>>64252337It's like they want the stats and performance a bullpup rifle, but will do anything in the world but use a bullpup rifle. A dang 20" Hellion is still shorter than this monstrosity.
>>64252470Can we just use the IDF method of clearing a building by dropping a few MK84 into the foundation and calling it a day? It's gonna be cheaper by end of the day anyway, and none of that pesky booby traps of PTSD to deal with.
>>64252478>room clearing with grenades instead of leveling the building with a couple of MK84s in the foundation.It's the new meta bro.
>>64257421better than the extremely bulky and heavy 240B stock which is like a brick for no reason
>>64252080Textron got cooked the moment they switched from the pseudo-bullpup rear feed, of the early designs, to that dumb forward feed, which placed the ejector port right where 80% of dogfaces put their supporting hand. I don't know why they changed the design, might've been due to changing ammo reqs. Their original design was intended for a CT version of the standard 5.56, maybe it didn't work with bubba's pissin hot loads specified by the new rifle program.
>>64257064>>64257090https://www.army.mil/article/212177/next_generation_squad_weapon_to_be_very_capable_lethal_says_army_chief_of_staffArticle from the Army itself summarizing Milley's claims. >WASHINGTON -- Several prototypes of a next-generation squad weapon were advanced forward for testing and a request for proposal was sent out, said Chief of Staff of the Army Gen. Mark A. Milley during a news conference at the Association of the U.S. Army's Annual Meeting and Exposition, Oct. 8.>Test firing of the weapon prototype indicates that it has an accurate range far in excess of any existing military rifle today, he said.>Additionally, it fires at speeds that far exceed the velocity of bullets today and it will penetrate any existing body armor or body armor expected to exist over the next 25 years, he added. This sophisticated weapon also has a sight system that integrates into Soldiers' gear that incorporates the latest in information technology.>Producing such a highly capable weapon is clearly in the realm of the possible, Milley noted, after speaking with engineers designing the prototypes. Right now, feedback from the prototypes looks like it will fire 6.8mm rounds.
>>64252035This
>>64257283>>64257311There was a pretty wide swing on the cartridge specs early in the trials. The most powerful IIRC was a joint venture between the MARS rifle company and another smaller firearms company called Cobalt Kinetics. The specs were 140gr@3200FPS out of a Johnson rifle styled gas assisted long recoil action and 13" barrel. That was basically the ceiling on power to my knowledge.
>>64257624No idea about the velocity of that gun but it definitely wasn't 140gr because everyone was handed a pallet of the exact same bullets and were told "make these go at least this fast."
>>64257633https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/08/28/mars-inc-and-cobalt-kinetics-submit-new-carbine-and-lmg-for-us-army-ngsw-program/Those are the specs they themselves claimed. >Inside the handguard one can identify a large recoil spring wrapped around the barrel- an essential part of any long-recoil operating system. For those unfamiliar with this type of mechanism, it’s not unlike your grandfather’s Browning Auto-5 shotgun. But make no mistake, this is not your grandfather’s battle rifle. The bolt and barrel, while locked, are allowed to travel freely within the action under the recoil impulse generated by the 6.8mm short magnum cartridge (the guns fire 140gr .270 caliber bullets at 3200FPS). This operating system causes a great deal of recoil energy to be spent and dissipated before the total recoiling mass delivers a blow to the shooter’s shoulder. Similar systems have been employed over the past few decades in some soviet rifle and machine-gun designs. This operation has been labeled as “shifted pulse recoil”. The recoil impulse is effectively distributed over time, while its speed is reduced by a spring and buffer system before the stroke is complete. The result is a slower and softer impulse to the shooter- more to the point- This rifle is as controllable and comfortable to shoot as the old low-impulse 5.56 platform, while doubling the effective distance and energy.Their advertisement in the press release.
>>64257651Someone must have done some creative rounding, I guess.
>>64257270and the optic alone costs more than rifles for an entire squad (and doesn't even work)
>>64256950Or you are just being retarded. Here, take a look.https://youtu.be/I0lJGDR-Duc?si=wR5XTRnQfp5p62ZA&t=1625M855A1 penetrated 1/3 times out of a 16" barrel and every single time out of a 24" barrel at 15 yards.XM1186 penetrated every single time out of a 16" barrel at 15 yards, but 0/2 times on a stacked plate at 100 yards.The difference in velocity between 15 yards and 100 yards is similar to the difference between a 16" barrel and the XM7's 13" barrel. A stacked plate is likely harder to penetrate, but probably not by so much that a total failure would be seen if it could penetrate a standalone plate comfortably.Here's another one:https://youtu.be/6UDoYD_t7oI?si=dcKS2nGd9VkP2UFj&t=1338M855A1 out of a 22" barrel penetrates 1/3 times, just like XM1186 out of a 16" barrel. Now keep in mind that the velocity difference between a 22" and a 16" .223 barrel is pretty close to the velocity difference between a 16" and 13" .277 barrel.
>>64257624why did they all use tiny stocks? weight save?
>>64251242>solves like, one problem being the weight.>not the suppressors or the barrel getting shot out, or any of the mechanical issues.>"we'Re fiXInG the speEAr!!"whoever authorized the contracts going to Nig-Sauer needs to be hanged.
>>64251242>Barrel is shortened to 10.5 incheslollmao>Stock is now fixed telescoping instead of foldingNaturally.>Lighter BCG/Upper/BarrelI suppose they realized that there's no getting around the barrel eating itself.>>64251329>VortexOh boy.>>64251415That's the older 8.5" barreled short carbine, but they're sure getting there by making everything lighter.>>64251423We can only hope.
>>64251593Hey now, maybe the optic broke again and they needed to repair or replace it!>>64251837To quote Dick Jones: "WHO CARES IF IT WORKS?!"
>>64251837the army prepares for the last war, meanwhile the marines adopted the HK416 and lpvos in exchange for tanks
>>64251415at this point adopt the SCAR-H?! the thing has had less issues as far as i know (correct me on that 'not up to date on what's going on with those in the field)
>>64252517The project is doomed.
>>64252592Just make sure you have one KAC LAMG in 7.62mm and one in 5.56mm on the squad level, then let the M240L stay in its current role.
>>64252738>338 should replace 50 BMG imoChrist, no.
>>64255213Longer barrels doesn't really mean better accuracy, and can in certain contexts actually mean worse accuracy. One of the oldschool fixes to old model Mini-14s having not-great accuracy was to SBR them so that the barrel was shorter and flexed much less when firing.More sight radius can of course make aiming easier though, and more velocity means a flatter trajectory with less drop, which is easier.>>64255950>>64256711Getting that slow burn CTE.>>64256740lmao, you made me imagine them keeping the same receiver and furniture, but just caliber convert it with a barrel, bolt, and magwell insert. Like if Sig did a Springfield SAR-4800 to the Spear and called it done.
>>64258406god that would be so retarded... FUCK ITS PLAUSIBLE
>>64258455>god that would be so retardedand here's why it will happenThe US Army: not a single successful small arms since the WW2Hope the USAF will save the day again
>>64258171overall length restrictions would be my pick
>>64258049Remember that it's velocity and not barrel length that's actually important, and that he's hand loading his 6.8 to emulate an XM7. It doesn't actually master what length barrel he's shooting his 6.8 through, it's all going the same speed as 6.8 is assumed to be through a 13" barrel.
>>64257271(Not OP)Here’s 2 powley sheets for the 6.8x51 - one for 70kpsi and one for 80kpsi. I estimated 55gr case capacity cause the 308 has 56-57gr and this has a smaller neck. Also estimated 1.4” bullet length. It’s the best I could estimate with the images of the 6.8 EPR I found on google. About 5.2-5.3 calibers long.Picrel.Left: 70kpsi, 120gr, 2707fps, 1951ft*lbsRight: 80kpsi, 120gr, 2836fps, 2141ft*lbsThese are terrible ballistics. Low velcoity and very low energy (for the case size). The sectional energy sucks too. The 70kpsi load actually has LESS sectional energy than m855a1 fired from a 20” barrel (about 5% less), and only about 3% more at 80kpsi.What the fuck is the army thinking?
>>64258860Powley computer isn't reliable for extremely hot loads, I wouldn't trust it for something like this.
>>64258458to reiterate, this should've never happened, and everyone involved in Sig actually getting the contract should be slaughtered
>>64259205It's not Sig's fault the program requirements were retarded. I'm not saying Sig isn't a shitty company, but what they built was probably the simplest and most straightforward way of meeting the requirements. At its heart, it's just a piston AR-10 cut down to the required length firing .308 necked down to the required caliber and then loaded to required power.
>>64259214true, however i hate siggers on principle
>>64258720I’m on Buffman’s patreon and I don’t remember him ever stating that he’s trying to load XM1186 to 13” velocity. He’s said that he doesn’t know what the XM7’s muzzle velocity is. As far as I can tell he’s just loading it near max.3150 FPS from a 120 gr projectile doesn’t seem likely when the 13” MCX-SPEAR only clocked 2830 FPS from Sig’s 135 gr hybrid case FMJ. 5.56 would only gain ~150 FPS dropping from 77 gr to 69 gr, which is a similar relative difference in weight. The brass case 135 gr FMJ was running 250 FPS slower than the hybrid case in turn so I doubt the hybrid case 135 gr was loaded light.
>>64251837They should just bring back the M16A4 if they want 5.56 with better range.
>>64257491They took that stuff from the US. So yes.
>>64257270this is what happens when a commision of brass oldfags designs a riflethey simple want to much at once a d also do not know what infantry needs because they sit behind desks all day
>>64259715there are people who's job it is to know what the infantry does all day, tradoc, and they were banned from the procurement processprevious rifle procurement failed because tradoc had requirements, if we are going to replace the rifle it needs to have 100% higher hit probability at x range, and penetrate a soviet steel helmet at 300mbut no new rifles could ever meat those qualitative improvementsso the NGSW was entirely based on one number, shoot our 6.8mm projectile as fast as possible.
>>64258860>What the fuck is the army thinking?hate to be that guy but
>>64259913Maybe that has something to do with the whole blunder being kicked off, but not each and every successive blunder within this whole adoption process. Did sig also drop the pressure to 70k because Cohen is Jewish?
>>64260270to me it's a case of>our lobbyist has paid a handsome sum of fat $$$$$$, let's make his gun the winner>what do you mean the gun is shit>well we have to go with him anyway so do whatever it takes to make it semi-sorta-half functional
>>64257594There is no statement of what ammunition is intended to >will penetrate any existing body armor or body armor expected to exist over the next 25 yearsbut given the context this clearly implies the tungsten SP round not the steel GP round.
>>64252060Goddamn it why can't FN pull their nuts out when it matters.They fucked up not actually supporting the SCAR for so long that the gov pencil pushers probably blocked them from testing a SCAR chambered in 6.8 Fury.
>>64258049>difference isn't vast>M855A1 took 8" more barrel and point blank range to compare to M1186 on steel plate
>>64258860Your inability to understand why you got this wrong is why you don't design ammunition for a living.wwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
>>64260793Elaborate. What did I get wrong? What am I missing?
>>64260773>M855A1 took 8" more barrelYeah it’s 6” more barrel you smoothbrain, can you count? and a difference of about 120 FPS versus a 16” barrel because 5.56 velocity gains from barrel length diminish rapidly over 16” and especially over 20”. This is like the velocity difference between a 13.7” and 16” 5.56 barrel, hardly a vast performance improvement, a 120 gr EPR would lose that much velocity in 50 yards.If the XM1186 had been fired from an M7’s 13” barrel instead of a 16” Spear, it would have lost more than 120 FPS.>point blank rangeThey’re all at point blank range you idiot, both XM1186 shots at 100 yards failed to penetrate.
>>64260858>24" barrels are 6" longer than 16" barrelsThis explains a lot.
>>64260881You are far more smug than your stunted brain has any right to be. Here, I’ll spoonfeed you the part of the video where he tells you it’s a 22” barrel. Retard.https://youtu.be/I0lJGDR-Duc?si=5s0H-p73ch01XyhY&t=1043
>>64260762imagine: all IWS and Evolys in 264 LICC in every squad
>>64260742That is questionable itself since the Adept Colossus exists.
>>64260762FN entered the HAMR and Evolys, they were eliminated in the first round along with Desert Tech and Cobalt Kinetics.
>>64261006The Evolys really needs a QCB.
>>64251242>Supposedly still hits 3000+ fps even with the 10.5 inch barrelWhich means the pressure is worse than beforeI look forward to the kabooms
>>64254725Its the bendy barrel curse that plagued the mcx
