What was the deal with this was it actually good or just a meme?
>>64266956retarded, you need big plates in order to absorb the force of a bullet properly
>>64266956Neither. The concept was good but the execution showed serious life-threatening flaws under real world conditions. There's a successor from some of the same designers that's much improved (it actually works) but rarely used/bought because it's really expensive and has other drawbacks.
>>64266956Reportedly it was pretty good at stopping higher power and more rounds than Interceptor. It was a meme because the glue or epoxy or cum holding the scales in place would fail in high heat environments and the scales would just fall to the bottom of the vest. Since the US was fighting in the ME during that time this was a big issue. Additionally IIRC the weight of these was something like 2 or 3 times that of the Interceptor armor, so even if they solved the glue issue, soldiers wouldn't want somewhat better ballistic protection if it meant lugging that much weight.
>>64266989IIRC the weight was much lighter AND it was infinitely more comfy.I tried on my bud's big USGI plates and WTF, I'm out, and we are both big boys. couldn't imagine a smaller dude, much much less any woman. I asked his wife if she'd ever tried it (and she pretty fit bigger than average sports gurl) and he said he puts the plates on her if he wants to make sure she doesn't go anywhere.Look into the corruption around Dragon Skin rejection and Pentagon buying crap from one of their buddies instead.
>>64267035>corruption around Dragon SkinI recall there being significant issues with it that weren't ever resolved, along with the developer claiming to have certifications for it that were never obtained.
>>64267035I think the main problems were the cost and melting problems. Vest is worthless if the scales all just fall apart like a puzzle in a box when exposed to an Iraqi summer day, especially if you're fighting IN IRAQ.Pinnacle being absolutely pants on head retarded and trying to sue the government into buying their armor as-is despite constant test failures was another major problem. Nobody wants to do business with that kind of hostile vendor, especially with defective product, no matter if it's soup spoons or body armor.
>In test runs for the Air Force there were multiple failures to meet the claimed level of protection. This coupled with poor quality control (over 200 of the 380 vests delivered to USAF OSI were recalled due to improperly manufactured armor disks) and accusations of fraudulent claims of official NIJ rating (Pinnacle had not actually obtained the rating at the time of purchase) led to the termination of the USAF contract.
>>64266956Will never forget boomers criticizing the U.S. government for refusing to buy this slop and buying it on their own dime and sending it to their kids so they can get btfo by some illiterate inbred cave dwelling goat herder. The audacity of the boomer knows no bounds
>>64267035I had to double check and yeah, this shit weighed 47.5 pounds. Compare to Interceptor at 28 pounds. Less if you take plates out because you're not expecting rifle threats, like Air Force security personnel. I can't imagine many would want an extra 20 pounds for a bit more protection and slightly more form fitting armor. Many wouldn't even wear all the extra shit you could add to the existing armor because of weight issues.
>>64266956It was pure garbage. Delaminated in any ambient temperature over 110F, the overlapping scales only stopped projectiles from certain angles, and the individual plates would get carried into the wearer a slab of ballistic gel) when hit by rifle calibers. Pure garbage, but the inventor twisted the results of the govt tests to imply it was failed due to MIC shenanigans rather than being a shitty product and tricked people into paying thousands for junk that was less effective than a basic SAPI. I remember a few guys in the sand box wearing them, command knew they were unsafe, banned them, and started issuing page 11s to anyone who possessed one.
>>64267050DocGKR tested an SOV-2000 Dragonskin panel in 2007 and it performed admirably, fresh out of the box with no conditioning. Like Zylon, Dragonskin worked great when brand new but fell apart in the real world.>>64266976>It actually worksI assume you're referring to Stealth Armor Systems' Dragonskin. Works fine on youtube but it's so expensive it's irrelevant and it hasn't been tested under the NIJ regimen yet. Most radical armor vendors tend to spook and make excuses when people ask why they're short on certs.
>>64266956Good idea but the glue was shitty. Meme armor.
>>64266956It was complete shit. Very sensitive to heat and moisture in the very short term, and it would not provide good protection from some angles, where the bullet could potentially pass between discs.>>64266976It's trash in concept.>>64267044Yes, they fucking lied about NIJ certification.>>64267160Arguably worse than Zylon.
>>64266956Meme. The discs had numerous penetrations in testing. Separately the adhesive separated in heat and exposure to fuel. The marketing for Draginskin claimed it was lighter than an IBA but that was a lie since they compared a size larger IBA with throat/groin/shoulder armor to a bare Dragonskin. Also also all the back about forth about getting it NIJ certified was for 3A, not even IV. It was never at the time submitted for IV. Despite this the implied it was and they claimed to have another vest that was "NIJ V" certified which highlights what snake oil salesmen they were
>>64267035>IIRC the weight was much lighterNope. IBA with sideplates weighed 28 pounds, while a Dragonskin of comparable ballistic coverage weighed 47.5 pounds. Even an IBA with sideplates, shoulder armor, neck, throat and groin protectors installed would only weigh 33.1 pounds, still less than the base model Dragonskin SOV-3000.>USGI plates for smaller peopleYa bro the make and issue different sizes. >>64267044The SOV-2000 was NIJ III certified in 2006, but was then de-certificated in 2007 over concerns about the longevity of the armor. On Pinnacle Armor’s waybackmachine page for the vests, it lists the SOV-2000 as “NIJ III+” which is not a recognized NIJ level by the DOJ.The SOV-3000 vest, the design intended to compete with military body armor, was from what I can find, never even submitted for NIJ IV certification. Despite this, Pinnacle Armor listed it as NIJ IV protection on their website. The vests failed the Army’s ballistic testing, with 4 of the 8 tested vests failing for various reasons, including penetration through the plates.The SOV-4000 was claimed to be NIJ V protective, which is a rating that doesn’t exist.
>>64267160A Zylon vest was as good as a Kevlar one at first, it would just wear out far fucking quicker than people realized (and Rich actually fucking knew this, the snake), particularly in places like Florida and Louisiana.Dragon Scale was deficient even when brand new, it's a very poor design and concept.
>>64267565As I mentioned before, the one DocGKR tested had excellent multi-hit performance comparable to an AMI TAC3S, but that was a panel I think Pinnacle sent him directly, so it likely got "extra QC", and also one he subjected to zero conditioning whatsoever. It was rumored a long time ago Ceradyne used pressed Zylon or Z-Shield backers with their ultra-high-performance plates. Those were stupidly badass on paper and trounce (again, on paper) any known plate made today.
>>64267618Why would they knowingly use Zylon in body armor? It deteriorates quickly from just normal body heat and sweat, that's why Second Chance got their asses reamed.
>>64267639This was late 1990s and they got the Zylon straight from Toyobo. It's possible Ceradyne genuinely didn't know or think to test. Remember, they lost all their SOCOM contracts around 2012 because the 92547 had bad adhesive and the strike face delaminated off the crack arrestor / backer.If they didn't check their adhesive in 2012, it's feasible they forgot to check their backer fourteen years earlier. Ceradyne has been lionized in the past few years as the willy wonka of armor. I think it's more they pushed things to the edge but focused too much on performance and not enough on reliability. Kind of like secret gucci Hesco. I'm referring to that "AA4" plate the /bag/ anons were yapping about for hours.
>>64267160>>64267618>DocGKRGuy was a fucking dentist in the USN reserve. I'm still not sure why he still has his cult following.>yes, i was there when he made a name for himself on arfcom>you got banned when you pointed out that he was a dentist
>>64268443Maybe he was the 1 in 10 dentists who denied Wagner loving the cock?
>>64266956We didn't know how good (and how fuddlored) we had it.
>>64268443He's also an oral surgeon, (retired?) LE, and was trained by Dr. Martin Fackler, who was basically the godfather of modern terminal ballistics.I can understand why people trusted his word. But, the personality cult surrounding him was, and still is, exceptionally robust. I don't think his armor testing was thorough and he carried water for Armored Mobility, Inc like hell, similar to how Buffman today carries water for RMA.
for those who don't actually have the reporthttps://files.catbox.moe/spcwne.pdf
>>64270675>But it was rigged by big armor!
>>64270675Failed at 120°F? holy shit that's bad.
>>64267555>The SOV-4000 was claimed to be NIJ V protective
I'd like to know how Mr. Bain actually fixed the new Dragonskin being sold today. Dragonskin has been around since 1993. He invented it with Mr. Neal. Did he know from 1993 until he split ways with Neal in 2000 that there was a problem? Can this be isolated to just the Dragonskin sold by Pinnacle or is the Skaalar formerly sold by Bain from 2004-2013, the original Armor Tech. Corp Dragonskin from 1993-2000, and the current Stealth Armor Systems dragonskin also suspect?Hard questions to get answers for, since Neal went off the radar in the 2010s and relevant documentation, communications, testing, etc has had thirty years to go missing.
>>64270796The threat profile per Pinnacle's site was multi hit 5.56 M995, 7.62x51 M993, 7.62x54R BS-40 API, and 7.62x51mm M948 SLAP at CLASSIFIED velocities.I don't know if any SOV-4000 actually exists or existed at one time.The sources are long gone due to internet decay but there was talk of an SOV-5000 .50 BMG variant that weighed in at 65-70lb for the full vest. Total joke.
>>64270681I cant recall, are there any good examples of recent testing actually, legitimately being rigged? Most examples I can recall either were honest or simply the result of the conclusions not playing out>M14 vs FAL: M14 won legitimately>Bradley: no we dont need to nuke one>Abrams: reworking your submission is allowed>Dragonskin: not falling apart is important Ignoring Russian examples since thats a whole different cube of mobiks
>>64270827Anything involving SIG lately is hotly debated.
>>64270839Sure, by retards. All the competitors for the MHS practically told big green to get bent with their feature requirements and the only real competition for the NGSW was a friggin bullpup
>>64270827I'd say the M27 IAR testing was rigged for the HK416, since the IAR program was just an end run by the Marines to get a new rifle anyway. You can tell they didn't actually give a shit about finding a good machinegun since an initial requirement was closed bolt semi auto, open bolt full auto. HK416 was submitted and didn't do that, while a competing entry actually did. Rather than proceed with the entry actually meeting the requirements, the requirements were simply changed. I'm not even saying the HK416 was a bad choice of a rifle, but the process adopting it as a SAW replacement was clearly a sham.
>>64270827>>M14 vs FAL: M14 won legitimatelyIf you're going back that far then you also have to mention how hideously rigged the M14 vs AR-15 tests were.
>>64270953Fair enough, I'm still reading through the black rifle
>>64266956Semi related, but does anyone remember those autistic concepts for leg armor people were making?
>>64270872From what I've heard they had to pitch it as a SAW replacement because congress wouldn't greenlight the budget to replace the old A2s in service because beat to piss infantry rifles are ok but beat to piss LMGs are a problem worth addressing. So yeah it was a rigged test but the whole thing was to get around retarded politicians
>>64267056I understand the willingness to criticized the government for not properly equipping soldiers, but why does boomer suspicion fly out the window as soon as a company makes some claims? They just eat it up
METAL STORMDragon ScaleWhat other technologies would the armed forces use if Discovery-channel drove procurement?
>>64270991>wereBetween pic related and the Jinwudun ballistic skirt I'd say we're in the silver age of extremity armor.
>>64271045You're talking about the same group of people who'll wipe their ass with an internationally researched paper, peer reviewed by the world's top experts, and take a paper that was called wrong by the guy who penned it and take it as gospel. It's how the vaccine autism shit still exists in this day and age. Apparently all the experts are wrong and you need to listen to someone who's had their license to practice revoked (because all the "experts" are all in league to poison and enslave you). Sadly that kind of stupid transcends generations and the government keeps doing retarded shit that enables their even more retarded beliefs
>>64266989So stitching in place with a big curved needle would fixed that? Lol
>>64271045People in general, but Boomers to an exaggerated degree have two things:1) They don't like admitting "I don't know." What this means is even when they correctly identify that something is wrong or there is a lie, they can't simply stop there and admit they don't know what the full truth is. This is many conspiracy theories- people correctly notice an inconsistency in what they are being told, but then go off the rails by spinning an "answer" out of thin air. 2) People like really smooth, tidy, and easily digested narrative stories. Think about all the little quippy history tidbits people endlessly toss around. All the nuance is stripped from them to make a neat little narrative. In regards to body armor, you had random people unsure of how well it actually worked, and if they were Boomers the simplified narrative of "the M16 got our boys killed in Vietnam" is still in their heads. Rather than admitting they don't know if issued body armor is actually good, some of them decided it wasn't and from that point on that was that. >>64271051AA12XM8That modular M2/Mk18 replacement thing
>>64271045>>64271069This is the same demographic that buys steel plates. Ironically because they can't afford ceramic and need justifications as to why their garage plates are juzzasgood.>$35 plates for me'>$5,000 vests for the army
>>64271056There was one, and I wish I could remember it, but it was basically a 19 something year old dude who had made his own frontal leg armor which were basically overlapped AR500 plates. He made a prototype, and filmed it
>>64271091>XM8Fuck man people really thought this would be the future rifle. That and the SCAR-L
>>64271102Oh yeah a guy sells that on ebay now. zasclectors AKA vestguy.com. AR500 bib (upper torso above the plate), shoulder, arm / shin (which can also be thigh), butt plate, so on and so forth. The shoulder plates seem to be quite popular.
>>64271091>the simplified narrative of "the M16 got our boys killed in Vietnam"I mean, in '65 and '66 that wasn't necessarily wrong but by '67 it had stopped being an issue. The real boomerism is when they tack on "and that's why we should still be using the M14".
>>642710516.8 SPC
>>64266956didn't russia already do this with those crappy titanium plates?
>>64271056those better be assless
>>64271345>and that's why we shy hulud be using AR500 steel
>>64271056>JinwudunStop shilling uncertified chink alibaba nonsense, sapitard.
>>64271045The idea is that because a company stands to lose money or face realistic legal consequences for lying, that they're more likely to be honest.The government could lie about anything and no politician would actually get punished for it. But a private business owner would either go bankrupt or face legal consequences for it.
>>64275408They also stand to gain money from lying, overstating, or otherwise getting away with making an inferior product. And based on even the most simple items in the economy requiring regulations to keep manufacturers from putting sawdust on sausages one has to wonder why they forget it. Note I am not saying anything about the governmeny because almost every distrusts them and that is correct. We all know it is correct. But anyone trusting companies is falling for some trust in the government (well, the court system mainly) to properly punish companies when they lie and that's very hit or miss.
>>64271051MP7s for everyone. C O R N E R S H O T
