Thoughts on the Panzerfaust? Could it have changed the course of World War II if developed sooner and more made available?
no
>>64267764>Thoughts on the Panzerfaust?it was a cheap and effective anti-tank weapon>Could it have changed the course of World War II if developed sooner and more made availableit would have slowed the allied advance down, but defenses against the panzerfaust would have been developed sooner in response, so the overall strategic balance remains the same
>>64267767Actually tank blunting tank blitzs could easily have had a significant impact on the german war effort post barbarossa
>>64267764No, not even Germans considered it as an offensive weapon.The usual engagement with tanks during WWII was at a range of 600-1000 meters, the lower range for the Western theater with more obstacles and the longer range for the East.The Pzf and is a vastly improved AT grenade but the useful range was 40-50m at best (Pzt 60), better than 5-10 meters of a grenade but not useful as offensive weapon, the same for the Panzerschreck with a range of ~100m. During late war Germans were sacrificing cities to fight against tanks.During late war they developed a higher velocity grenade launcher, the PAW 600 and PAW 1000 to close that gap between a normal AT gun and the Pzf/Pzsch
>>64267774WW2 was an arms race, one side introducing a weapon causes the other side to implement counter-measuresintroducing the panzerfaust earlier, at best, delays allied victory by a few months but it wouldnt radically alter history as the allies introduce tactics to mitigate the panzerfaust and introduce similar weapons of their own much earlier to match it
>>64267787>The usual engagement with tanks during WWII was at a range of 600-1000 metersthe median was 600m engagement range in the western frontbut the mode was actually 400m range, with the average being pushed up by a small number of 2km range kills
>>64267801Thanks for the plot that is clearer. It also shows the % of <50 yard combat, ~1.5% (using the pixel count of GIMP), if Germans needed to defend something they wouldn't use Pzf, that is only useful for ambushes.
>>64267764>Could it have changed the course of World War II if developed sooner and more made available?Maybe made the war a few months longer with more dead russians. Considering the weapons avaible for a german squad to destroy a tank (hand grenades, satchel charges, landmines and 7.92mm anti tank rifles) at the start of operation barbarossa then a panzerfaust or panzerschreck would have been a massive upgrade.https://youtu.be/VIC-BdwwI1w?t=331If we take this event for example and give the germans panzersfausts then the story would have gone something in the line of "Under the cover of darkness, german combat engineers crept up to the KV-1 and fired 2 panzerfausts into the side of the KV-1. The KV-1 burst into flames, thus finally ending the threat and allowing vital supply trucks to continue driving, delivering much needed ammuniton for the frontline troops."Which is much better then having 50 germans tanks distract the KV-1 while a 88 shoots it in the rear and finally have german infantry charge the KV and shove hand grenades into a opening made by the 88 striking the kV-1 armor.
>>64267792>delays allied victory by a few months but it wouldnt radically alter history"A few months" means Germany makes anime. I'd call that a radical change.
>>64267764>Could it have changed the course of World War IIThe only thing that would have changed the course of WW2 was if Germany didn't invade Poland.Once that happened, it was over for them.
>>64267764Would have added allies vehicle losses and slowed down the attack momentum. But germany is so fucked on strategic level (resources, production, logistics) it's unsalvageable.
>>64267764No.>>64267774Not enough to actually matter.
>>64267896>>64267764>>64267774The only way Germany could have won was to avoid hostility with the US.That or a combination of>Destroy the British Fleet>Develop VT fuses and deploy them on rockets>Develop the atomic bomb first.Otherwise the outcome is inevitable. WWII was won on the American assembly line.>>64267801>Values: 0 - 2000>Median = 600wut>>64267896>7.92mm anti tank rifleswut
>>64267767fpbp
>>64269058>7.92mm anti tank riflesImagine a bigass case akin to .50BMG, but it's necked down to a relatively tiny 7.92mm projectile.
A single Uboat sank more tonnage than the famed american carrier enterprise, by 100k more tonns.The real wunder waffe was uboats.German U-boats probably sank around 14 million tons of Allied shipping during the war (although some figures are higher), with the peak year being 1942, when 5.8 million tons was sunk.If it wasnt for Goerring deciding fancy planes took priority wed have seen a different picture, since of all submarine forces combined german uboats took down 50+% of it all durying ww2 it could have starved the british, prevented american reinforcement to russia and britain.After that they would have won against russia no matter what, but might stalemated against britain at worse.And keep in mind they werent uber duoer advanced unlike german tanks, more like ww1 era tech.
>>64267774It wasn't even a significant factor in the bocage, simply because air power was so decisive at that point
>>64269058https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerb%C3%BCchse_39The fact you didn't know about the german anti tank rifles shows how little impact it had in the war which shows on post war history literature.Everyone knows about the panzerfaust because the germans managed to shit out millions of them and they could kill any tank on the world war 2 battlefield.While the Panzerbüchse 39 struggled to kill light tanks the moment they got armored to resist 20mm autocannon fire or 37mm tank fire.
>>64269058>wutmeant to say the mean, which is 600mthe mean is being pushed up by a small number of exceptional incidents, because you can see the graph peaks at 400m
>>64269115>ignoree improvements in ASW>ignores improvements in merchant shipping survivability with the implementation of the convoy system>ignores the fact a new Liberty class launched every 1.5 daysSubs were great until they weren't. Even if Goering hadn't been a retard and Hitler hadn't been obsessed with a surface fleet Germany would still lose the naval war.
>>64267801wtf is a mode
>>64269186The most common (highest probability) case.From wiki.
>>64269151>While the Panzerbüchse 39 struggled to kill light tanks the moment they got armored to resist 20mm autocannon fire or 37mm tank fire.That's kind of the fate of all anti-tank rifles of the era, they worked for light armor in the interwar period and the early war, but as armor got heavier they really stopped being used much against tanks at all.A lot ended up being employed as just general anti-materiel rifles (as we think of those today), like the Boys, Solothurn, and Lathi, but the Pb39 is notable for a more novel approach which I'm almost surprised nobody else did.>Well, driving a hard 7.92mm projectile extra fast isn't cutting it anymore.>What do we do with these rifles then?>Cut off the barrel, and make a big grenade spigot/cup for it!>Use just a huge 7.92x94mm blank to chuck a shaped charge grenade!And that fucking worked, those grenades could cut through some armor, making those guns viable for fighting tanks again. Not the most graceful ever (probably had harsh recoil), but it's an interesting repurposing. I believe they did a similar thing for some lighter field anti-tank guns too, cut off the front of the barrel on those, make a big spigot/cup for it, and then use the light cannon shell blank to launch a big grenade with a shaped charge.
>>64267764Probably not. It's a good weapon, sure, but it's only one weapon and the wider economic picture is too much against Germany.
>>642690747.92 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer
>>64269193That median illustration is wrong.
>>64267767FPBP>>64267774The only way to change the outcome of the war is for Germany to secure large oil fields and defend their refineries, without that (or nukes) they can't do shit.
>>64269409No, it's coherent with the definition of median.
>>64267787>During late war they developed a higher velocity grenade launcher, the PAW 600 and PAW 1000 to close that gap between a normal AT gun and the Pzf/PzschThe PAW600 was to replace light field guns (75mm Light infantry guns, howitzers, etc) and the Pak 40 AT gun with a unified weapon that did all the things while being cheaper and lighter.It was not intended to be an 'in the middle of AT guns and rocket launchers" weapon, it was to replace the former.
>>64269258>I believe they did a similar thing for some lighter field anti-tank guns tooThe Stielgranate 41 was a shaped-charge grenade that could be mounted on the barrel of the 3,7cm-PAK. The big issue was the small effective range of 300 m, difficulties with aiming and the very obvious loading process, which was a detriment in a camouflaged position - and the loader of the grenade was very exposed to incomig fire.
>>64267764If you look at the actual stats, rather than Wehraboo fantasies, then the most effective tank killers in WWII were anti-tank guns, other tanks/tank destroyers, anti-tank mines, and then man portable AT weapons. Like so many other things introduced in WWII they were just a little too early for what the technology/engineering of the day could really handle. Given that the one advantage the Panzerfaust had was that it was cheap as shit when compared to the Panzerschreck. IIRC the allies did a hell of a lot better on that front with the Bazooka and the PIAT (as memey as it is).
>>64269115Go read Black May. By the end, Germany was losing subs faster than they could adequately train new crews for them. It wasn't just one thing that turned the tide; it was the development of a dozen or more new techniques, doctrines, and technologies that won the Battle of the Atlantic.Now, if Germany had realized what those captured snorkels were, and invented the Type XXI in 1940, and changed their doctrines so that they weren't broadcasting their position prior to attack, and kept some of their best crews home to train others, then maaaaybe they make a greater difference. But the Allies had more tools to respond with, like escort carriers, sonobuoys, and MAD, all of which proved effective against subs throughout the Cold War. And there's also a chance that helicopters get pulled into the game earlier than in history, to do things like daylight patrols around a convoy looking for periscopes and dropping sonobuoys.In the end, I don't think Germany had the resources available to control the Atlantic after Hitler declared war on the US. It was just a question of time and casualties.
>>64270015The Bazooka's main problem was the piddly HEAT shellThere's a reason they came up with bigger tubes soon after the war
>>64270159>The Bazooka's main problem was the piddly HEAT shellTrue, but despite that and despite America fielding them in slightly excessive numbers, they did as well as they needed to considering the Allied superiority in AT guns and tank destroyers.
>>64267787PAW 600 and 1000 were intended as flat-out replacements for anti-tank guns up to PaK 40 and light infantry support guns.
>>64270167I should have specified Pak 43 and 44 instead of just "normal AT gun"
>>64267764Good engineering in the pursuit of a bad strategy.
>>64267764>Thoughts on the Panzerfaust? Lightweight, cheap, and disposable, and once they got some more range out of the things, actually useful. Neat forerunners to later single use launchers like the M72 LAW, RPG 18, and RGP 76.One of those areas where the Gnutzis were prescient in small arms development.>Could it have changed the course of World War II if developed sooner and more made available?PFFFFFFAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>64269258>>64269574>The Teutonic urge to turn everything into a spigot mortar
>>64272026I need this
>>64269115Lmao post US sub tonnage
>>64267764>Could it have changed the course of World War II if developed sooner and more made available?It's a black powder recoilless rifle, not a magic wand.>>64267896The Russians had cope cages by the time they rolled into Berlin.
>>64270204That's the guy I answered to.PAW 600 wasn't meant to replace the giant-ass heavy AT guns. It was meant to replace the PaK 40 and smaller - it effectively had the anti-tank firepower of a PaK 40 out to ~750 meters effective range, while being less than half the weight of the PaK 40 (and in fact a good deal lighter than the PaK 38).
>>64267764The range and accuracy on these things was abysmal. They could only be used defensively. There's a reason everyone switched to recoilless rifles instead.
>>64267774The only reason the Soviets were able to tank blitz the eastern front was because the eastern front collapsed, soldiers on a collapsing front might be able to hamper the enemy's advance a little bit more with better infantry AT but it wouldn't jave changed any tides or slowed it down enough to matter
>>64267764Why would it? It was in operational use by 1943 anyway. The Panzerfaust series coming out slightly earlier would have zero impact on the Western front even if it might have some slight effect against the Soviets, and it doesn't fix any of the logistical and operational level difficulties and failures that hampered Germany.
>>64267764>cheap, enhances method of stripping infantry escorts from breakthrough tanks Having a fuckoff number of them North and South of Stalingrad (and outside Moscow) could have stabilized the overmatch situation against 3rd rate axis ally units at a critical moment. Would've given Rommel options for more tenuous echelon/bait for 88s.
>>64267801500m was mutually assured penetration, generally.
>>64269115Surface ship resources were wasted, and pre-war production oughtve UT it all in submarines— then again the plan was war readiness by 1945 (but for imprudent guarantees to Poland, and the horror of what they preempted early in Barbarossa, as stated in the Mannerheim secret tapes)
>>64269058>The only way Germany could have won was to avoid hostility with the US.There is no scenario where Germany wins. Ignoring German High Command told Hitler in 1940 they had too much fucking stuff to cover and not enough stuff to supply it, he went ahead with Barbarossa (and had he not, Soviets would have built up and invaded). Ignoring even that, the Bongs developed nukes first (Tube Alloy Project) so even if the USA had remained completely and totally neutral the Bongs would have nuked Berlin and repeated it over and over until they won. Sure it might have been 1946 or 47 when they dropped it but they would have dropped it.The only way Germany wins WW2 is by never starting it in the first place. Instead of invading Poland and thinking the Brits and French won't honor their alliance they pursue economic growth (outside of the 'number gone up so I am good' shit he was doing until 1939) and bought the land from Poland. In 1940 the British and French were sending their military to Finland to help them against the Soviets. So Hitler instead offers to join in on that. He uses his military which he has built specifically for a war and based his economy around preparing for this war to fight the Soviets. French and Brits get involved, Japan now has no need to invade the Pacific colonies of Europe and instead goes to USSR's far east instead. USA then can either get involved to grab land opposite Alaska or just sit it out. Soviets are defeated, Communism falls. Hitler then dies of syphillus induced insanity and drug addiction and is hopefully replaced by somebody more reasonable since Nazi ideology was diametrically opposed to Western values and conflict was inevitable. Hitler dies a hero who restored their honor, got them land and resources and defeated the enemy of Europe.The issue with this scenario is Hitler and Himmler were very pro-Islam so it is likely the Islamification of Europe would have sped up if Nazi ideology was around.
>>64275047I ran out of space. As Jack "Mad" Churchill said>If it wasn't for those damn Yanks, we could have kept the war going another 10 years!In short, USA shortened the war, it did not win it. No scenario exists where anything could change the situation EXCEPT Germany getting their nuke project off the ground first. Which was thwarted when the Bongs got Norwegians to blow up their entire hard water shipment because the Germans, in their infinite wisdom, placed this priceless material on armored trains with heavy guard BUT had to transport it over a Norwegian lake to another train depot, which meant a boat and for some reason did not put an entire army guarding the boat, but just a few guys. So the British-Norwegian force walked on, planted a timed bomb and left. The bomb was timed to go off over the deepest point of the lake. Which it did. The supply was lost and it would have taken a decade to get the supply they needed back. Bongs had that supply so they could make a nuke.Instead they traded this information to the USA in exchange for aid. The funny thing is the USA then immediately kicked them off the nuke project post WW2 so the Bongs had to do it all themselves again (not surprising as the US policy was designed specifically around killing off the European empires in order to make more money, further helped by the OSS/CIA and UN post-WW2).
>>64274417Why isn't high low pressure gun more popular?
>>64275556I guess it was a weird timing issue. Basically the krauts rolled it out right at the end of the war in tiny numbers, nobody really took interest in the immediate post-war era and then recoilless rifles and ATGMs took center stage.The US brought it back in time for Vietnam, with the M79 blooper.
>>64269058Median is not half the of range unless the distribution is symmetrical.
>>64269424"Middle value" does not mean 50% of total collective distribution to each side. It means numerically equidistant from the largest and smallest value included in the set.In set; 1, 1, 2 ,3, 4, 10, 10, 10, 10, the median is still 5. The green line in>>64269193 should be in the actual middle, not favoring the left as shown.
>>64267764does anyone have any schematics on these on how to make a display model of one of these? I got a house and would love to have one as wall decor
>>64275846False.
>>64275861Idk what are you trying to argue. That pic doesn't mention the middle value, only the mode, median and mean.
Although the Sagger missile was only part of an anti-tank complex, it gained fame by stealing the battle results of other weapons such as SU-100.
>>64267764>Thoughts on the Panzerfaustit was decent enough >Could it have changed the course of World War II if developed sooner and more made availablesmall arms basically never do you fag
>>64275981The panzerfaust is estimated to have slowed down the allied advance by about 30%, since tanks couldn't advance easily through built up terrainWhile it wouldnt have won the war, it would have had a noticeable effect if there was a lot more of them available to slow the allied breakthrough normandy
>>64267764Not unless the germans could have produced them in large quantities, which they couldn't. Quoth some German general, "we don't don't have enough fuel to move our tanks to the other side of this field, the Americans have enough to fly chocolate cakes across the atlantic." Shit was over before it even started.
>>64275998>the Americans have enough to fly chocolate cakes across the atlanticThis is probably apocryphal, since the average US field kitchen was equipped to bake a cake already
>>64275998They made 8 million panzerfausts.
>>64275992A thousand things could have been different and all it would have done is keep Germany fighting a little longer. There's a comic about Germany getting the means to produce literal superhumans, and even with them, their leadership realize that victory is still not possible, and the best they can hope for is to take everyone else down with them out of spite. Or as a character in the story puts it, "We can't win, but we can make sure everyone else loses too."
>>64276009Still not enough to win them the war.
>>64275874The median is the middle value in a set of numbers when they are arranged in order from smallest to largest. If there is an odd number of values, it is the middle one, and if there is an even number, it is the average of the two middle values.
>>64269115Uboats were mostly successful in the first year of the war when the UK was still using WWI tier ASW technology and doctrine. Once they started improving sonar, radar and naval bomber & recon capacities, Uboat crews had a life expectancy comparable to an infantry squad in Stalingrad. They sunk a lot of Allied merchant vessels but were losing submarines and irreplicable seasoned crews at the same pace.>If it wasnt for Goerring deciding fancy planes took priority wed have seen a different picture, since of all submarine forces combined german uboats took down 50+% of it all durying ww2 it could have starved the british, prevented american reinforcement to russia and britain.Uboat production had complete priority. German wartime industry poured more resources into submarine manufacturing than tanks, guns and airplanes combined. They literally could not recoup tank or plane loses from either the Blitz or Barbarossa because they were so focused on pumping out submarines.
>>64276450Now think how that applies to a probability distribution, that is continuous instead of being a set with discrete values. Then compare the answer with the pic >>64269193
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