Earlier this year I was involved in a scenario which required me to use force. Unfortunately, I did not have self defense/cc insurance and I had to pay out of pocket for a criminal defense attorney. I am now in the clear legally, but it was still financially devastating to clear my name. Moving forward I am interested in getting insurance, in the event that it happens again.>USCCAI have heard that USCCA has fine print saying they wont protect you if you get a criminal charge (wtf is the point)Not sure if it that is still the case currently, but it still makes me skepticalThey have cringe fear mongering bait adverts which turns me off, so I dont know if they are legit or not>US Law ShieldI hear this is less retarded, and they will decide on a case by case basis if they will protect you. This is a little sketchy to hear, but sounds better than the alleged USCCA no criminal defense policy >other optionsI am not sure of any other options, what do you bros use/recommend and why?
I yooz muh dik
>>64268069may I also use it?
>>64268078ye
>>64268065Get a lawyer and pay the retaining fee. There is no cheap way to win a court case.
>>64268092are you retarded
>>64268065they are all "insurance" and like all insurance companies will try anything to deny claimsUSCCA had a bad year. 2 cases became public where they dropped coverage because they felt like it was self defense. 1 case ended with the jury saying it was indeed self defense, the shooter walked free. the other is getting appealed right now, some bitch shot her ex husband in a walmart parking lotthese jews are the only non-insurance/scam self defense "club" you can join https://attorneysonretainer.us/no personal experience, i am a member though, and they arent paying this goy royalties for you to click the link
>>64268111>hey dropped coverage because they felt like it was self defense.because they felt like it wasn't *** self defense
>>64268110Are you poor?
>>64268115literally yesI am poor because I had to get a lawyer and pay the retaining fee. There is no cheap way to win a court case
>>64268117How much did it cost overall?
>>64268128Consider the following...First you must post bailThen you pay the retainer fee, which for me was over 3000 dollars on its own. Retainer only buys you until your arraignment, sometimes a preliminary hearing. After that I had to start paying by the hour, which was at rate of several hundred dollars per hour.Also consider the fact that by this time you have likely already lost your job. Also consider that perhaps you were days from moving to a different state when it happened and now have nowhere to stay. You are now living in your truck and eating from the food bank.
>>64268162I didn't ask all that. Approximately how much did it cost
>>64268165aint telllinya
>>64268169Because you were already broke
>>64268065>I am now in the clear legallyso what happened, who did you shoot
>>64268174yeah, fresh out of school, barely started my career
>>64268065>>64268177And most importantly, did you kill him?
If you shoot the people trying to sue you they can't sue you. Plus, people who sue on behalf of criminals are criminals, too, so you're improving society even more.
>>64268177Allow me to illustrate...Three basketball players became physically upset at another player because he mistook their basketball for his own at the local hoops, a simple misunderstanding The player tried to explain, but two of the other players began to foul him. I witnessed this unfair play and was concerned that the fouling would cause the player to be out for the rest of the season. I allegedly passed basketballs at the heads of the two basketball players who were doing the fouling.
>>64268204so you shot at 2 nigs who were about to beat someone up?did you even hit one of them?
>>64268213two balls were passed and the passes were completed
>>64268065Shit, between the price of these insurances which don't inspire much confidence or having to pay for a lawyer, it might make more sense to buy and wear a bodycam when out in public. If shit goes down try a de-escalation routine and try to retreat. Failing that use lethal force. Don't tell the cops anything other than "I acted in self-defense, I need to speak to my attorney." Having such clear and cut evidence could save you a shitload of trouble, money, and time instead of it getting dragged out by some Soros DA. If you're getting mugged just hand your shit over and take solace you avoided a legal nightmare.
>>64268204That was fucking retarded and you should count yourself lucky you're not in prison.
>>64268204>fighting when you do not need to fightmmmm, no, very unwise.
>>64268323>let nigs maul someone to death because "ee's num' maw bizniz"
>>64268329Remember what Napoleon said: never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake, in this case reducing the total population of their tribe by 1
>>64268065>Hiring a lawyer (professional jew)>Not just representing yourself in court and calling the DA a nigger in front of the judge and jury>Case dismissedCould have saved yourself a lot of time and money, Anon.
>>64268162get a free atterny are you alirhgt bro? You know those exists right?
>>64268336Man he really got you, OP. Napoleon was right you know
>>64268323>t.new jersey resident
>>64268065if you don't trust the insurance companies to have your back.you can just put aside money every month on a separate account to cover any future legal costs you may face
>>64268065Threadly reminder that if you're worried about going to jail and losing all your money in lawsuits, you need to learn more about your local self defense laws. Self defense insurance is a scam targeting the the stupid and uninformed.
>>64268962>Self defense insurance is a scam targeting the the stupid and uninformed.Unless you're in a blue shithole like I am. Handgun insurance is mandatory.
>>64268065All insurance is a scam. TKD.>>64268204>>64268329>Kills 2 nigsBased>To save a nigWhat the fuck are you doing?TND
>>64268329Unironically this. This thread proves that no good deed goes unpunished. Just mind your own business as much as you want to be a hero. I'm not drawing my gun for anything except an imminent threat to myself or my loved ones. People I don't know can get fucked, unfortunately.
>>64268065here we go with this shit againt. James Reeves, USLS program attorney for LA and MS. USLS is legit. I refer everyone again tot he time I had to defend some nutjob who shot a couple of 9 year old kids in the face with a paintball gun because they threw a stick at his truck. USCCA is a scam - I've heard they just deny everything. AoR just claims to not be insurance but is in fact insurance, they just call it "on retainer" to make it sound like it's not insurance. Their main reason is not because "FUCK SHITTY INSURANCE COMPANIES, we're different brah", it's to avoid the insurance regulators who would oversee their business in every state to make sure it's above board. They used to not cover misdemeanors, only felonies (75% of my cases are misdemeanors) until I called them out on it, and they changed the policy. They also only have attorneys in AZ or some shit, if it's somewhere else they get admitted pro hac vice (they ask the court if they can defend you even though they aren't licensed in that state) so you have an already retarded AZ lawyer defending you in a state where he has no clue what the procedural or substantive rules are. USLS is also like $11 a month or some shit.
>>64268065Oh wow it's this thread again.DO NOT BUY SELF-DEFENSE INSURANCEIT IS A SCAMGET SOME MONEY AND PUT A LAWYER ON RETAINER INSTEADThere. Now the thread can die.
>>64269507As other commenters have mentioned, this is dumb. If you can't define what a retainer is, you shouldn't give one to a lawyer. If you can define what a retainer is, you know it makes fuck all of a difference whether or not you have an attorney holding onto your money.source: I am an attorney.
>>64268204You wouldnt have been indemnified anyway by either insurer in that circumstance
>>64269528If this is really what happened, USLS would have covered. USLS covers any weapon (even fists) and covers defense of a third person.I had to defend some idiot asshole from a HBCU who saw his friend getting in a fight outside, went outside, and him and his friend put the instigator in the hospital. This guy was OK to deal with but his mom was fucking unbearable. I wish I could post some of the emails she sent us. Non-lawyer with zero experience trying to tell us how to do our jobs. DA was a huge cunt too.t. James
>>64268204So you didn't even warn them to back off before you opened fire?
>>64269461>U.S. LawShield is known to be underwritten by Fortegra Companies in many states. Fortegra is a financial services firm that provides insurance products and servicesThe cover more than US law shieldThey don't have some mystery panel focus group that decides what case to take/not takeUS law shield have attorneys in all 50 states? Its the same shit, minus the fact that they will always take your case whether you are probably guilty or notWho are the US law shield lawyers? Some youtuber arguing on /k/ ? Who else? Are you licensed in all 50 sates? You only said LA and MS, who's doing the o\ther 48?
>>64269543So USLS is basically a barfight insurer, lol, as long as the cops don't allege you started it?
>>64269552Somebody got a pdf of their standard clauses?
>>64269560US law shield:>Limits, Exclusions, and Eligibility>If the incident occurred in a location where the member could not legally possess a weapon. Gun-Free zones?>Possibly exclusion if the member is charged with a criminal act that is not defensible under their policy terms. Who determines what acts aren't defensible?>Domestic violenceShouldn't be an automatic denial of coverage. Everyone has some crazy ex that lies about everything>>64269552>>64269543I dont want a insurance policy Mr Reeves, I want a pro 2a attorney on retainer, costs offset by shared membershipsWhen you and your US law shield buddies ditch the Fortegra Insurance company and just copy AoR, I'll sign up
>>64269614Not their little website blurb, their actual policy document
>>64269552USLS has a hand-picked gun lawyer in every state. I've met almost all of them since we have summits and CLEs a few times a year. If you good something like "USLS meet your attorney Louisiana" you'll probably get a blind date intro video of the lawyer.I am licensed in 4 states: LA, MS, FL, and AL. I have been LA+MS since they opened in those states. I don't know who the AL lawyer is but as much as I hate to admit it, FL's lawyers outclass me in gun-related defense and they may be the best in the country other than TX. Dave Katz and Jim Phillips. They even go by "The Firearm Firm." Top notch litigators.I have never had anyone convicted of a felony in LA or MS. We had one guy plea to manslaughter after he shot someone 21 times, including 5x in the back of the head, over a poker game. Oscar Lucero, you can look that one up. We got him such a good plea deal the judge rejected it and tacked on another few years.
>>64269552I love the /k/ self-loathing>he posts here? Well we KNOW he's retarded, because I am too!Take your chances with John Wick Esq. from AZ then I guess, can't wait for him to figure out how Napoleonic Code works.
>>64269543>USLS covers any weapon (even fists)But I assume this wouldn't include illegal weapons. AoR claims they will still cover you if you defend yourself with an illegal weapon. I'm asking because I live in a state with one of those NFA decriminalization laws (Tennessee specifically) where they supposedly won't go after you if you have an SBR without a tax stamp. Tennessee is also one of the few states where brass knuckles are banned even though we have very lenient gun and knife laws now.
>>64269634Pay well?
>>64269653LA's Napoleonic code still? Not common law?
>>64269676It's a gamble. You get paid the same based upon how many members you have in your state. The more members in the state, the more you get paid, but the more cases you have to tackle. TX and FL I know do ONLY USLS cases because they have so many. If I get one big case I'm losing money every month, but MS and LA are so gun friendly that I only get about one big case every 2 years or so. Most of it is misdemeanor stuff or felonies that I know I can get knocked down to misdemeanors before it even lands on the trial DA's desk.>>64269681Still Civil Code. it's not that hard to get around if you are a common law attorney, but we have the toughest bar exam in the country (CA does not count since you don't have to go to law school to take it, thus the sky high fail rate) and there are nuances to practice here that make it different than other states.
>>64269525A retainer is money you give to an attorney they keep in a trust that they draw from if they do legal work for you. By giving them retainer money you form an attorney/client relationship with the attorney which means they can't just drop you for no cause unlike shitty self defense "insurance"I am also an attorney
>>64269696So you have your own private practice and USLS thrown you some clients now and then, right?
>>64269718So you get that money back from AoR if you don't use their services? Because that's, indeed, how retainers work.If the answer is "no," (pro tip, the answer is "no") then it's not a retainer. It's an insurance premium.
>>64269728I am on call 24/7 for Lawshield clients. USLS pays me a fixed monthly fee but I have to be available 24/7 for USLS member emergencies and free to answer legal questions during business hours. I've had two inquiries today. Most of them are copy paste or easy calls ("what do I need to know about carrying a gun in Louisiana?")
Hi James, in case you actually post here (doubtful) I have a very serious question that I need to ask:I would like to have gay sex with you.
>>64269738Has Lawshield ever had any of you guys appeal convictions for Clients in higher appellate courts?
>>64269758I've never had to appeal a conviction because I've never had a client get convicted. Appeals are covered and USLS pays the program attorney extra out of their own corporate pocket because appeals are a procedural bitch and time-consuming.
>>64269747I already said no, Mike Jones.
>>64269769And surely LS would have a secret team of actuaries/lawyers who would determine the cost benefit of fighting for a client in court and weasel out of their coverage obligation if the cost was too high.
>>64269738I made a post earlier about carrying a bodycam versus springing for these insurances. What do you think? If you were a lawyer and a client came to you after a self defense incident with bodycam footage, would that make your job a hell of a lot easier? A GoPro Hero is $200, pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.
>>64269782This demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the coverage/liability dichotomy but that's forgiveable, because even lawyers in the field don't understand it. In short, you, anon, were not the first person to think of this. I have many insurer clients. The insurer pays my bill but my duty of loyalty is to the client. I do not "work for" the insurance company. I "work for" the client. The contract the client has with the insurer is a right possessed by the insured to have the insured pay for a lawyer. That lawyer is known as defense or liability counsel. The lawyer disputing coverage is coverage counsel. They cannot be the same person or even firm because of the conflict.This is such a well-recognized potential conflict that some states even require what is known as cumis counsel. Cumis counsel is an independent 3rd lawyer who must be paid by the insurance company to make sure the insurance company is not fucking over the insured.How this works with USLS: USLS lawyers are not USLS employees and why we are compensated the same no matter what. At the end of the day, I make the decision whether or not the arrangement makes sense to me. USLS does not really care if I have 0 open cases or 12 because they pay the same no matter what. If I am not getting paid enough, I can try to renegotiate with USLS or I can walk (although I have a legal duty to defend the clients I alreayd have if I decide to walk). In other words, this assumption is incorrect. USLS has the same premium revenue no matter how many claims are open.
>>64269787It's a double edged sword. If you did something dumb then we'd have to produce the video, and if we deleted it, there might be a valid spoliation claim, which can lead to a sanction where the court instructs the jury to assume that what was going to be shown in the video was going to be bad for the person who destroyed it. I actually appealed an won a negligent spoliation claim once where I had a client allow surveillance footage of a brutal fistfight (one dude lost an eye after his orbital socket collapsed) get overwritten. He was genuinely on vacation and was the only one with access to the cameras, so it was negligent, not deliberate. I lost in trial court but won in the LA 4th Circuit. This was a civil case.
>>64269807Let me ask you this, do they deny initial coverage to people with criminal histories?
>>64269826I'm sure that's not the case. If you were a prohibited person and used a firearm, it might be a different story but I truly don't know.I'm pretty up on USLS coverages but because I am the defense attorney, I don't need to know what they are inside and out because I just defend the clients and I don;t make coverage decisions (see conflict post above).
>>64269787Now that I think about it, I had a client who was wearing a bodycam in Bossier City. A car almost hit him so he pulled a gun he had spraypainted bright orange (in case he ever dropped it and needed to find it) out and pointed it at the passing motorist. Cops were never called but the guy was amped about the bodycam footage and thought it was going to save his ass if he did get in trouble. I think it showed him committing a felony with a 10 year max sentence.These are the people I think of when I am asked if wearing a body cam is a good idea. Most sane people would not.
James, thanks for shedding light on all this. I had a very loose idea of how this stuff works (took paralegal courses years ago) but this really helps.I also know that the average /k/ poster is absolutely clueless about the law and fills in whatever they don't understand with speculation and conspiracy. That can lead them to all sorts of retarded conclusions, like spray painting their carry gun orange. I know it must be tiresome to Q/A this stuff with troglodytes, but it has real potential to at least save some anons from their own stupidity (provided they listen, comprehend and actually believe you).
>>64269997Glad to do it. I've been shitposting here before I was ever a lawyer so when I have the opportunity to discuss something I'm intimately familiar with, I do. Slogging through a memo in an LEO case in MS right now and this is a way to break it up.
>>64269868Thanks for sharing your experiences. Imagine a scenario where someone with a bodycam did everything correctly, that is emphasized deescaltion and made a good faith attempt to retreat, and only used lethal force as a clear last resort. Also recorded a good faith interaction with the police afterwards. How would bodycam footage work out in their favor? I'm just theory-crafting here, mainly seeing what can be borrowed from what the law enforcement community has learned throughout their own history and experiences. Also, based off the cases you worked do you think most people would be better off carrying pepper spray? It seems like a no-brainer to me, most assailants aren't trying to catch a body and are merely trying to physically dominate in a state of temporary sort of fugue state. Pepper spray is quite cheap and is a 100x easier to carry around than a gun. I always make the argument if you can carry a gun it makes zero sense to not have some pepper spray on your person too.
>>64270046Same, I'm in between RA forms working for a firearm importer.>Turkshit is pain>They *can* make good guns, they just don't because of the low price point that the market demands >80% of the problems is still user error because half the people who buy them are complete window lickers>About 90-95% of the guns somehow either don't have problems or we just never hear about them I can talk your ear off for hours about this nonsense, but I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say without doing myself or my employer.
>>64270075Doxxing* myself or my employer.
>>64270068I could absolutely imagine a scenario as you described and it would be helpful, however, even in the cleanest shoot, there might always be the implication by a prosecutor that you anticipated getting into an altercation, which is why you were wearing the camera. Jurors are also people and people might think it's bizarre for a normal guy to be walking around with a body camera. If you had a job that required you to interact with people (Amazon delivery contractor) or engage with potentially hostile persons (you're a repo man, bondsman, or process server), totally different story. Joe Citizen walking around is a bit strange. OTOH I can think of two times where a self defense situation became a he-said she-said and the aggressor called the cops on the victim first, and camera footage would have saved both of them tens of thousands of dollar sin bail money. Pick your poison I guess.
>>64268111All those cases costed money costed money, even if they won. Insurance is always a scam except for life insurance, but for that you have to die or get maimed badly. The solution is to invest money in mutual funds starting when you're young and or stash gold bars for emergencies. Gold is not a good short term investment but is readily sold for cash.
>>64271640>just be rich broyeah
>>64270100Thank you again for sharing your experiences. Maybe one day we'll get legalized flashbangs so we can pop one of them and retreat in the panic, avoiding most legal pitfalls of a shooting defense. I mean what are criminals gonna do, call the cops?
>>64269270>unfortunatelyIf someone doesnt even try to defend themselves from attack they dont deserve as much from others. Dont save others who wont save themselves. That victim OP saved should have pulled his own gun out and started blasting, so OP wouldn't have to.
>>64268384A lot of areas only give you a public defender if you're under a certain income limit
>>64268110Keeping a lawyer on retainer is less expensive than you might think.
>>64268065my personal insurance coverage actually includes covering lawyer fees when suing the police and I've successfully used it, haven't been bothered by the cops in over 11 years now
>>64276500The state is obligated to provide you legal counsel and representation if you are unable to hire your own, regardless of income level. People prefer not to use public defenders because someone being paid by you to support your best legal interest is going to be far more effective and put far more effort in than someone trying to juggle thirty dindus who were all caught red handed. The job of the public defender often boils down to "just take the plea deal because the state isn't going to spend the resources to properly defend you, not out of malice, but because it simply can't".
>>64276905>sued the copsKek, we need a story on this one. What happened?
>>64269461None of these companies are insurance because you basically cannot insure self defense as it is a crime that you are asking for forgiveness for.
>>64268065I have ccw safe
>>64276911Yeah, dont get a public defender unless you literally have no other option
>>64276911pd's are also often fresh out of law school.If you want to be a criminal defense lawyer and you didn't have the grades to get into a firm. you have to slum it as a pd until you can find a couple of cases to make their names on.
>>64276913I live next door to a doctors office that had a break-in at night and the cops decided to search my home because I had lights on in the kitchen at 3am, they come to my door telling me they have a warrant and demand to be let in, then they pick up my shoes off the floor to report that they found "dogs hair from the crime scene" at my home in my shoes to actually get the warrant from senior duty officer, retroactively justifying the search (illegal), in their report they claim the medicine cabinet at the doctors office could've been broken into as a reason why the search was critical to carry out in the middle of the night I then went to the owner of the doctors office who I know very well and discover the owner had arrived an hour before the cops had searched my place and confirmed to the cops the drugs are all still safe and no drugs are missing whatsoever they made me a suspect in the case on false pretenses
>>64268065God I fucking hate Brazilians
>>64276900checked but...I don't know why people feel like having a lawyer on retainer is some kind of flex or perk. A lawyer holds onto your money (my typical retainer is between $5,000-$10,000) and they don't touch it until you need their services, then that money erodes by my fees. By and large, there's almost no difference between forming this relationship with the lawyer before the incident or after your arrest. In other words, I don't give a fuck if you call me the night you got into a shooting and tell me you need a lawyer, I'm not asking you "oh but DO YOU HAVE ME ON RETAINER? Because otherwise I can't help." There's no advantage, laypeople just think it's some kind of legal summon spell. If you are just parked on 5-10 grand you don't know what to do with, I guess go ahead but it's pretty pointless unless you know some shit is about to go down and you want to have the lawyer ready for that specific occurrence. The lawyer has to keep the money in an IOLTA so they can't do anything with it or even profit from interest in holding the money so A/R would be pissed at me if I just held like $100k in retainer for random clients who might never need my services. >>64276921Holy fucking shit sir
