https://youtu.be/jjvEZksJKKcHuge news. With both zero dollar tax stamps and now this news the NFA for SBRs and SBSs is gutted. I’m shocked that a turnaround happened so fast.Biggest change is if a firearm is intended to fire a 2 or 3 projectile .223 or other cartridge according to the ATF this means it is NOT subject to the NFA and parts of the GCA. While this only applies to Franklin Armory and FRAC right now, they will license the technology to other manufacturers at minimal cost. This is going to shake up the market.Pic unrelated
nigga what? I'm illitirate
>>64272281Okay, so they're saying that their rifle isn't a rifle because it's designed to fire duplex rounds (what makes it better for this than any other rifle?) and the definition of a rifle in the GCA specifies that it can "only" fire a "single projectile." But how does that not fall under "more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger"? Wouldn't being designed for duplex loads make it a machine gun?
>>64272380Holy shit, I just realized the definition of a machine gun begins with "any weapon." Brb, filing for patents on my fully automatic 37mm signaling device.
>>64272380Not OP. From what I gather, the Antithesis can fire two TYPES of ammo: a regular projectile and a shotgun shell*. It's still a semi-auto and only fires one at a time, so not a machine gun. Since the rifle definition specifies firing 1 single type of projectile and this gun fires 2 types, this doesn't count as a rifle. Evidently, this ruling will also apply to stuff like .45 LC/.410 guns.*The shotgun shell apparently is a hull you shove a 5.56 bullet into. https://franklinarmory.com/shop/firearms/antithesis-multiple-projectile-assemblies/
>>64272400He mentions duplex loads specifically in the video. And if being able to fire snakeshot is all it takes to make something not a rifle then rifles don't exist. And shotguns don't either since technically you can shoot slugs even through a full choke.
>>64272380ah, but does shot mean cartridge or projectile? a pepperbox gun or a double barrel shotgun don't count as machine guns (right?) even though one trigger pull shoots more than one barrel as well as each barrel shooting multiple projectiles
>>64272408okay so the hull they sell has a bullet in it that you load another bullet into to make it into a duplex round?
>>64272408>And shotguns don't either since technically you can shoot slugs even through a full chokeshotguns don't have the same definition as a rifle does
>>64272412Pepperboxes are in a gray area and as far as I know no one has sent one to the ATF for a ruling because they might not like the answer. The Gilboa Snake was modified for a second trigger to be sold in the US, due to concern that it would be considered a machine gun with a single trigger. Double barrel shotguns typically have two triggers. I'm not aware of one commercially available that fires both barrels are once from a single trigger pull.
>>64272417>'rifling' 0.0001" deep and 0.0001" long so it's not a shotgun>slugs and shot exist so it's not a rifle
>>64272421Standard manufacturing makes the st333 which is a double barrel revolver with volley fire and a single trigger also they make the dp 12 which is a double barreled pump action bullpup shot gun
>$1,069.99So brave of them to sell at 3x cost.
>>64273339Has the ATF issued a ruling on it?
>>64272281So because this gun is "designed" to shoot multi-projectile ammo it's a "firearm" that just so happens to be able to chamber normal 5.56? What is the advantage of this over putting a "brace" on a 10.5" "pistol"?
>>64272281>>64272400I don't get it. Their website says it can fire .410 shells, but then they have that goofy looking duplex thing.
>>64272281Is ravensdagger getting a cut?
>>64273407unironically it's meant to stick it to the feds.
OP Here.>>64273407No. It's a 5.56 firearm that can also shoot multi projectile cartridges. Because it initially transfers as a firearm it isn't an SBR or an SBS so you can do what ever you want. You can put an actual buttstock that isn't an uncomfortable and awkward brace, you can put a giant broomhandle foregrip or run without. It is also not a pistol so when it comes to importing a firearm (which Franklin Armory has hinted they are going to license this to importers), it can just come in fully installed with everything it needs as it doesn't need to comply with 922(r) among other things.>>64272380Shotguns are not machine guns.>>64272400Yes. Because it can fire two different types of ammunition it is neither an SBR nor an SBS. Its just a firearm.>>64272387Destructive devices have always been on a higher tier than Machine Guns. DDs can always be fully automatic, what stops you is that they are expensive to make.
>>6427353537mm signaling device are not DDs, there's no tax stamp for a flare gun.
>>64272281Franklin Armory may be retards, but they are based retards.
>>64273606If it were fully automatic I would assume that it would need to be a destructive device.>The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 7684(2) , 7685 , or 7686 of title 10 , United States Code ; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.It likely would fall under (2) unless you can prove it exempt. But I would just make it a DD so you can use it to make boom boom shells.
>>64273625Flare guns are already exempt from 2. What if you need to rapidly shoot off a whole magazine of flares for entirely peaceful purposes? Or use some of the good old Willy Pete to fill a field with smoke and make sure your rescuers can't miss it?Of course you couldn't shoot it at a person, that would be inhumane.
>>64273654The question you would have to ask is if you can negotiate that with the ATF or the Coast Guard. Good luck if you are serious.
I have several lowers that explicitly say "mult-caliber" on the magwell. So if I had $1M to fund legal fees against the ATF I too could site their case before a judge to argue that I am building a mult-projectile firearm with an Aero or Palmetto lower? Is this what the precedent will lead to? If so, then good on Franklin for funneling the license money to support more legal battles against anti-NFA legislation.
>>64273784that's not exactly what they are doing. The mark "multicaliber" means that you can reconfigure the receiver to fire multiple calibers, but it can only fire one caliber per configuration.You can take a 5.56 weapon and adapt it into a 9mm weapon, but it's either one or the other at a time.What they are doing is that with one receiver configuration, the weapon can fire multiple calibers and types of projectile, without the need to reconfigure the gun. I think
>>64273821Sounds more like an ammunition centric precedent then, correct? Because I guess the ATF would argue that a drop in .22lr BCG would a be a reconfiguration? But if I designed a reciever explicitly with intent to fire both 5.56 and some 5.56 snake round variant I suppose I would be making the same argument as Franklin.I can't believe the ATF didn't just look at the judge and say "oh come the fuck on, your honor". Based judge.
>>64273881The ATF wanted to argue that the law didn’t say what the law actually said. It isn’t like Franklin Armory is asking for anything too out of the ordinary. The law allows for something that isn’t a SBR and SBS and the ATF created the situation by their ever changing interpretations.
kek this is so retarded, I love it The NFA is such a fucking joke
>>64273359They probably spent mid to high six figs in legal costs to make it happen, I don't know that I can fault them for attempting to recover costs through sales.
Does this mean they wont try to charge me 500 bucks to give my range toy a cope switch?
>>64274033>>64273359You are getting a not-sbr rifle and a binary trigger for roughly 1100 dollars. Its not a horrible price and you avoid the currently 200 dollar tax stamp.
ok so I didn't get why some people were talking about the multi-projectile rounds and others were talking about the binary triggers but it's bothbasically the NFA definition of a rifle requires a single projectile per trigger pull. So they worked around this two ways: shooting more than one projecticle using a standard trigger and shooting more than one round, both in a single pull of the trigger.this makes it fall through the cracks in classification to become just a "firearm". All that matters is what it was originally designed for, so you could buy the binary trigger version and then just always use it on single-shot semi-auto or buy the other one and just never buy or use the multi-projectile ammo
>>64272281yeah this was a bullshit ruling and he spelled it out plainly here. the fact that he admitted it was a short barreled rifle is sure to get them to lose on appeal.
>>64273654Not trying to rain on your parade too much or anything, but of all the fluid "we don't like it so it's illegal" BS the ATF does DDs are the worst. DDs are basically intent based in a ton of ways as far as they're concerned. For instance a 37mm flare launcher suddenly becomes a DD if you were to use a projectile that the BATFE feels like could have anti personnel use. I'm not saying you wouldn't get away with it but but they really don't seem to entertain the cheeky loophole stuff with DDs like they do rifles/shotguns/handguns. They'd almost certainly consider that a DD because they know what you're up to and don't get nearly the legal pushback letter lawing that category.
>>64274266There is no appeal. The government signed a settlement like the rarebreed.
>>64274287im saying that a state govt is likely to pick up the case because this ruling is insane.
>>64273654Why do you make it as pyrotechnic device for fireworks
>>64274230actually after looking at this more I don't think they ever argued the binary trigger angle on this. Just the multi-projectile rounds.machinegun definition says "automatically more than one shot...by a single function of the trigger."rifle definition says "fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger"so for the machinegun definition, pull and release are separate functions but the rifle definition you could argue that the binary trigger fires one projectile on the pull and another on release, but the definition only counts firing on pull. So the multi-projectile rounds are just simpler legally to argue.
>>64274467binary triggers are still act as individual distinct trigger pulls. Same reason why gatling guns or crank triggers aren't considered machine guns
I speak on behalf of the GAYTF and the gubbmint we will not let this slide! Our biggest client our lobbying and we will not stand down on this atrocious infringement of the NFA!
>>64274302The case is settled. Unless it's appealed (it won't be), the only way around it is to introduce a new law.>>64274351Fireworks are regulated by the ATF. If you're going to get an explosives license, you might as well just put in the paperwork to buy an actual 40mm grenade launcher.
>>64274273As long as it only fires 37mm smoke and flare cartridges, it's an unregulated signalling device. Obviously making 37mm buckshot cartridges for it would make it a title 2 firearm but to my knowledge there's no restriction on how quickly you can fire flares.
>>64274302Are you retarded? The state government does not have any jurisdiction over federal firearm laws.
>exempt because of duplex roundsWelcome back Colt ACR
this seems like a good thread to ask about FRTs... Are these things here to stay? And are they actually good? I remember hearing about the old kind that fired once on the pull and again on the release which sounded pretty dangerous and gimmicky to me, but the new ones that just bump the trigger back into the ready to fire position seem pretty legit. Now all we need is some kind of suppressor workaround (difficulty: impossible mode).
>>64272281So... snake shot comes in like every common caliber right?
>>64275524>this seems like a good thread to ask about FRTs... Are these things here to stay? And are they actually good?that's subjective and not a yes/no thing. If you want to turn lots of money into smoke and eeeeeeeeeeee then yes. If you want to simulate full auto without doing all the form 3 stuff, yes. If you think they'll make you a leet operator, no.>I remember hearing about the old kind that fired once on the pull and again on the release which sounded pretty dangerous and gimmicky to methose aren't FRTs, those are binary triggers which is what Franklin Armory makes, which is what this thread is about. I have multiple of them on ARs and 10/22s. They're gimmicky but fun, especially on the a 22lr. >but the new ones that just bump the trigger back into the ready to fire position seem pretty legit. dunno, never messed with one>Now all we need is some kind of suppressor workaround (difficulty: impossible mode).come Jan 1 when the tax stamps are dropped to the salary of a janny there's gonna be a lot of groups suing the GayTF about how a zero dollar tax is unlawful. so there's a non-zero chance that suppressors may get stricken from the registry. there's also a chance that comet 3I/ATLAS is an alien mothership, so don't hold your breath
>>64275524>Are these things here to stay? The alternative is the ATF admitting that they gave a company a free pass to manufacture illegal machine guns.>Now all we need is some kind of suppressor workaround (difficulty: impossible mode).Stamps are going to be free in 3 more months. You could also just refuse to comply. Who's going to care enough to arrest you for not paying a $0 tax?
Where can I read the court ruling
>>64276054https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-august-2025-open-letter-franklin-armory-reformation-and/download
>>64273535Now how would you go about creating the equivalent of this for shotguns and handguns
>>64274050Binary triggers are fucking retarded.
Since they said they will license the design, what exactly is the patented feature? Something in the chamber design?
>>64273606They consider a 37mm a DD if you fire Lethal ammo through it of a certain diameter. It's why 12 gauge adapters for 37mm are NFA items, otherwise, underbarrel 37mms would actually be cool, if not impractical.
Can you legally throw whatever upper on this? Or would that void the duplex round shit?
>>64277964no u
>>64275044Can't a state just ban anything they want? FRTs and binaries are banned in Florida, despite being legal as per the ATFs definitions.
>>64278144>wins again
>>64278079The barrel is specially rifled so as to fire their duplex rounds with minimal dispersal, but still fire a regular round accurately, despite it tumbling. There's no way the gayTF would allow us to put a regular upper on it. But that's the problem with a lot of these non-NFA items, like the mossberg Shockwave, a pistol ar, and now this. An agent/cop would have to know whether your pistol ar receiver was actually manufactured as a rifle, or a "firearm." Because you cant tell by looking at the receiver what it was manufactured as, cops are likely to confiscate/arrest, and proving your innocence will be up to you and your lawyer. If the difference between totally legal, and asspounding prison felony is being able to prove that your shotgun receiver was purchased as a "firearm" and not a "shotgun" then the law needs to be abolished. What if someone buys an ar receiver that the seller claims was manufactured as a pistol, only to get sent to prison later because there's actually no way for the buyer to tell?
>>64279390That's why Franklin is telling you to bring the letter with the rifle. Ideally they see the 'Antithesis' branding on it, read the letter, and let you go. Or they call the local ATF field office for clarification. But once you make it less than clear that you have an 'Antithesis' rifle, you make it easier for charges to be pressed.
>>64278069I don't believe it even has to be lethal, pretty sure even beanbags would make it a DD since they're inherently antipersonnel. But if you only have signaling cartridges for your 37mm launcher, it's not a DD because it's not a weapon. That means flares, chalk, smoke, blanks, etc, are all legal to fire and there's nothing in the law about how quickly you're allowed to fire them off. Now, as for whether you're allowed to mag dump a home intruder with half a dozen 37mm chalk rounds, you're getting into a gray area and you'd better have a lawyer on retainer.
>>64278144sure. but at a certain point the line gets really muddy especially when the ATF approves something that they don't consider a rifle.>>64277964okay buddy. just pull it out and put in some other fire control group then. 200 bucks to you if you resell it.>>64276054>>64277076There is also a settlement agreement in addition to this letter where the ATF agrees not to pursue this any further.>>64277323I don't know. Shotguns exist because of 12 gauge being exempt from destructive device language. I'm not sure exactly how because slugs are a thing. Maybe a slug gun that also can fire fixed brass cartridges. Pistols may be a different story but then again Franklin Armory is a compliance busting company at its core.>>64278022Duplex Ammo. I think that is it.>>64279390That's not necessarily true with the new Antithesis. They will be rocking a standard barrel with a normal twist rate. That was the point of the court case. I don't know what may change if you swap uppers but if you go over 16 there isn't a problem and if you put another pistol length upper on it there may be a problem.
>>64279579>Shotguns exist because of 12 gauge being exempt from destructive device language. I'm not sure exactly how because slugs are a thing.There's a sporting exemption for a handful of arbitrarily decided cartridges. .950 JDJ is also non-NFA because J.D. Jones is friends with a judge or ATF manager or some shit.
>>64279656Very true. I had forgotten about that. 12 Gauge is just the most common cartridge to receive an exemption.
So it can fire .410 and .45 Colt? Can it handle the Ruger Only hot loads?Come to think of it would this mean a .410/.45 Mare's Leg would be perfectly legal? Someone get Henry and Marlin on the line...
>>64279783I think .410/.45 is regarding their other gun, the Antithesis is only advertised as .223.
>>64279579Duplex ammo can’t be the licensed feature. Compatibility isn’t a patent violation.
>>64273821well, since SAAMI specs are retarded and 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are considered two different calibers for some reason (even though under CIP they're identical), this is already the case. And besides, with their new MPA, ANY 5.56 can be "designed or redesigned" to fire the MPA, given that it works in any standard 5.56 chamber and is designed to stabilize with a 1:7 barrel. Under the current legal framework SBR's are now redundant for 5.56 at least. It's only a matter of time before this is made in other calibers, I full expect to see it in 7.62x39 or .308 in a year or two, should this catch on.
>>64280051>>64280071I think what they're licensing is the ammo with the idea that they're selling a weapon+ammunition "system" that's NFA exempt. I'm pretty sure that was the ATF's initial complaint: that the weapon is no different than any other AR-15 and therefore it shouldn't be treated different legally.
>>64279390>barrel is specially rifledsource?
>>64280484I might be mistaken. I watched a military arms channel video on the Franklin reformation. It used straight rifling. I thought thos was essentially the same gun. I watched several videos about the Antithesis and never heard the rifling mentioned.
>>64279444> That's why Franklin is telling you to bring the letter with the rifle. Ideally they see the 'Antithesis' branding on it, read the letter, and let you go. Or they call the local ATF field office for clarification. But once you make it less than clear that you have an 'Antithesis' rifle, you make it easier for charges to be pressed.Which wouldn’t be a problem if they made some kind of special unique caliber so they could mark it as such and it could make it easier to clarify like seriously how hard is that
>>64281500>straight riflingThat is for the reformation. The Antithesis is a different firearm and is not subject to the NFA and GCA not by virtue of its rifling, but by virtue of it being "designed" (quotes are hint hint, there isn't any fucking difference, this win was purely a matter of legal language definitions) to fire multiple projectile rounds. >essentially the same gunWord because they're named differently by the company selling them, are legal for different reasons, and were released for sale to the public spaced years apart, and have different lawsuits establishing their legality. God damn chatgpt is making us all stupid.
I don't understand why this gun in particular gets the okay to be a "firearm" from the ATF when there's nothing different about it to let it fire these duplex cartridges. I also don't understand the cartridges, since the Franklin website only shows some shitty, tampon-looking piece of plastic that doesn't even remotely look like a 556 bullet/cartridge and as of yesterday at least, I haven't seen a single video of Franklin, or anyone for that matter firing one.
>>64282881It fits on top of the normal bullet in a 5.56 cartridge. The tampon pushes down just far enough into the neck so it doesn't fall out in the magazine. It's not supposed to work well, it's just supposed to work enough to skirt the law.
>>64282881It didn't get the okay from the ATF; it got the okay from a federal district judge. Franklin leveraged that into a legal settlement with the ATF, which their lawyers might have bungled for their 5.56 version.
>>64275794>Who's going to care enough to arrest you for not paying a $0 tax?This is thought provoking. I can see how this could lead to them being stricken from the NFA rather easily.
>>64276054>>64277076Well... that didn't last long.https://franklinarmory.com/news/franklin-armory-issues-statement-on-atf-action-regarding-antithesis-firearms/>Last night, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) requested that we voluntarily bring back all 5.56 caliber Antithesis firearms in advance of the agency issuing a new classification. We were surprised by this in light of the U.S. District Court’s ruling in FRAC v. Bondi.>in advance of the agency issuing a new classificationbATFaggots just couldn't take the L>Out of an abundance of caution and for the well-being of consumers, dealers, and distributors, we are voluntarily requesting all of our customers to return their 5.56 caliber Antithesis firearms for a full refund.
>>64284056Who could have foreseen this?
