The Physcial Limits of Rifle by G L M Kjellgren published in the magazine «Parabellum» Lugano, Dec 1977.>*exhales*>aaaaaaah...>good shit!https://jumpshare.com/s/yEFOzIYx3BfljNVNyM6fPublished in Italian and tasnlated by some anon.I have paper copy of this Parabellum magazine issue can send scan.
>>64282840End as addition presentation of Interdynamics MKR rfile that grew out from this ideas. Madman actually made it in the metal.
>>64282840Wow good content on /k/!I like it. It is dated though. Statistical models assuming randomness are fine for operations researchers, but for actual professional soldiers standards are somewhat different. Also note figure 7. This is a conventional rifle layout and it inadvertently demonstrates why nobody likes bullpups - bullpups moving the center of gravity back is a mistake not a benefit.
>>64282904>bullpups moving the center of gravity back is a mistake not a benefit.Back center of gravity back affects automatic fire and this paper points out automatic fire is kinda useless for legacy militarily ammunition rifles because they have too much recoil impulse.For essentially semi automatic rifles this effect is irrelevant.
>>64282840>mass loaded 3.0kg>mag capacity 750 roundsOne of these things is not like the other.
>>64282840the future was LSAT
>>64282981His vision was absolutely crazy.Like nobody in most fever dreams of sci fi envisioned this>750rds mag>2500 rds/min cyclic rate>1.81 grams round weight"Lets lend Kelltec our ideas threads" on /k/ where child's play comparing to this.
>>64282931Back center of balance negatively effects all accuracy and recoil control.Putting the weight forwards makes the muzzle more stable under the swaying of your arms and also recoil.Having the center of gravity between your hands allows you to manipulate the gun more comfortably but this is a smaller benefit.
>>64283131paper only mentions burst dispersion
The meme round of the G.11 wasn't lighter than the 5.56 per joule after you add all the deadweight to protect the snowflake propellant, it was crap.
>>64283161See Fig. 11
>>64283227and?
>>64283221Fun fact:30 rds of M855 from M4 is 47100 jouiles or 92 joules/per 1 gram of loaded magazine50 rds of 4.5x26R from MKR is 40000 joules or 181 joules/per 1 gram of loaded magazine
Thankfully the ACR program conclusively killed and buried all the retarded caseless and flechette meme bullshit six feet under.
>>64283314now add the disposable cassettes.
>>64282904>>64283131The center of balance moves to the front once you bolt a bunch of bullshit to it.
>>64283322He's not talking about the G11.
>>64283321LSAT had a fully working machine gun with excellent performance but noooo we couldn't have that, we had to turn it into NGSW which was moronically retarded we could have had belt fed carbines for all with better performance and less weight than current weapons but nooooo we needed to give everyone a DMR with earsplitting machfuck not-so-AP rounds to line (Sig)'s pockets
>>64283387Cased telescoped is not the same thing as caseless ammunition. You can tell because it has "cased" in the name.
>>64283332That's true. Which is why I think that a modern 20" bullpup with a light weight design, especially in the rear, with also a good amount of accessory mounting options would be an excellently balanced rifle.
>>64282840>>64282840>translationGigabased. I'm obsessed with the low drag, small caliber, and high velocity concept desu. Efficiency is frustratingly underrated in small arms, people seem to think it's a zero sum game where you have to lose performance in one category to gain some somewhere else, but that doesn't have to be the case. And speaking of case, there's also the strange infatuation with conventional metallic centerfire cases. I'm not entirely convinced by Kellgren's solution, but technologies like cased telescoped have been around for ages. They're essentially mature at this point. I think the best service rifle cartridge with today's technology is a .264 LICC equivalent but with a lighter high BC bullet in a cased telescoped case.
Why doesn't keltec make a tec9 clone?
A loaded 750 round magazine weighs 1kg? That’s like a gram per loose round. 20 grains per round if the magazine itself weighs literally nothing. That’s 100% bullshit.
>>64282840>>64282856>>64282931>>64283013>4mm B'RAPInteresting read but wasn't the main reason a caseless wasn't adopted aside from cost is that they needed more heat insulation?
>>64285222No, but that's one of the problems. The biggest issue is that there are no propellants that are sufficiently mechanically and chemically robust to serve as a cartridge case.
>>64285236I knew there was quite a few issues with the caseless ammo just couldn't think of the exact main one off the top of my head.
>>64282904>nobody likes bullpupsthere are also the trigger pull hatersallegedly a pull bar is greater than a push barbut since this is the future weapons thread why not go further ?>pneumatic triggers>hydraulic triggerpascal's law is nice, leaking seals and boil off / icing problems would be fun tho>electric triggerpiezo lighter and paint ball guns have these
>>64285402I think electric triggers and eventually electronic firing will be the future because they allow you to implement things like the SMASH FCS and IWI Arbel (both jewtech, interestingly enough) natively and without the added weight of extra servos and what have you.
>>64282840>predicted drones
>>64285355Just have a normal AR drop-in trigger where the hammer hits a transfer bar. The trigger would feel exactly the same regardless of the configuration.
>>64282840>4mm>750rdsThere's no fucking way.>>64283013Kel-Tec is very tame compared to the weird shit he used to be experimenting with.>>64283221Agree.>>64285203Kellgren was on some real shit back in those days, go look up the complete crackpot bullshit that was the Interdynamics MKR.>.22WMR necked down to 20gr 4.5mm rolled copper bullets>stacked in a 50rd semi-circle magazine for a bullpup rifleThe claim was that it was just as good as M193 Ball, but there's no fucking way that was ever true. I imagine it was probably a lot closer to the P90 and MP7, which still makes it interesting, if only it had been made centerfire and maybe had a more worthwhile powder charge to work with.
>>64285203see>>64283013
>>64285822>The claim was that it was just as good as M193 Ball, but there's no fucking way that was ever trueThe whole premise has always been that the bullet is more aerodynamic optimized so it doesn't loose as much velocity with range and that it is smaller caliber and can still penetrate a steel helmet.
>>64285822>There's no fucking way.read the paper? It's very clearly explained
>>64282840A fascinating look at good ideas that have been largely forgotten these days. As shown in that chart of range/recoil, the H&K 4.6x36 offered about the same range as 5.56 with a third less recoil. And in his estimate of cartridge weight, even with a conventional steel case his 4mm round would still be 20% lighter than 5.7x28! People ITT seem to be focusing a lot on caseless ammo and less on the fact that we could get pretty damned close to his dream with '70s technology. That 4.6x36 round wasn't even that long or high pressure, meaning they could've gone even smaller caliber and gotten similar performance. Sadly the adoption of 5.56, and finally the failure of the G11 really killed any interest in this sort of thing. These days we have guns like the XM5 that are the polar opposite, fuckhueg battle rifles.
>>64285890It's really sad how averse people to any kind of innovation in this field. Even the G11 was mostly disadvantaged by the dumb burst requirement, but people never look past that and prefer to dunk on the work of people who dared to explore what was possible with the technology at the time.
>>64285822>There's no fucking wayHe explains it step by step. Smaller diameter bullet = less joules needed to pen a targetLess joules = lighter bulletlighter bullet = less gunpowderless gunpowder = less barrel heat, lighter ammo and simpler actionsimpler action = caseless is viablecaseless = even lighter ammoIt's a virtuous circle of positive feedback culminating in stabbing your enemies with 20 round bursts of icepicks at 2200RPM.And if you believe his math, it's revolutionary, because we've seen how much optics boost small arms performance and this improves hit potential almost 4x as much as optics.
>>64285842Which still isn't magic, 4.5mm MKR, while being able to match M193 Ball in velocity, still has less than half the energy and projectile weight, being able to penetrate a steel helmet doesn't tell you all that much alone.>>64285222Heat and cookoff was a problem which H&K and Dynamit Nobel solved.What they did not solve was the fragility and moisture sensitive nature of the ammunition, as well as the fact that there just isn't any way to achieve proper obturation without some kind of casing, thus inevitably unburned propellant residue seeps out of the action into the receiver with every single shot, accruing over time. You know, a thin film of explosive dust all over the rifle's insides.Speaking for just the G11, it's an impressive piece of engineering, but it was never all that good of a combat rifle. The Bundeswehr were really dragging their heels on the thing until reunification gave them a great excuse to nix the thing for good, and the U.S Army concluded that the juice really wasn't worth the squeeze either.The hit chance improvement of the hyperburst over a 5.56mm rifle wasn't really significant, especially not to justify all of the various drawbacks of the weapon system. The results of the ACR Program rather showed that the best thing they could do is to take that optic which Colt showed up with, and just develop that into a standardized piece of equipment for normal existing 5.56mm rifles using normal existing ammunition.
>>64286151>obturationThat's why Kelgren uses open bolt blowback for this design.
>>64286168How will that solve obturation?
>>64286177By making it a non-issue by accepting imperfect seals.
>>64283013mass effect already did it
>>64283013>"Lets lend Kelltec our ideas threads" on /k/ where child's play comparing to this.These threads mostly consist of anons combining obscure actions with obscure cartridges. Few of them realize that Kellgren only uses relatively popular cartridges that make his pre-existing vision possible, and often only imperfectly like with the CP33, PMR-30 and CMR-30, no doubt he would have really liked it if there were widely adopted centerfire equivalents to 22LR and 22 Magnum.Also, Kellgren has said in the past that he hates non-auto guns like revolvers. He only likes automatics.
>>64286151>wind up gunlol. people are retarded.
>>64286213Why don't you show us your fully sealed caseless hyperburst combat rifle design, anon? You aren't allowed to use computers to make it btw.
>>64286184That's not a solution.>>64286213I never did like that design aspect of it specifically. Adding a non-reciprocating charging lever which you could pull back to turn the chamber would make for far better and simpler handling.Sure, it would add complexity, but H&K weren't exactly afraid of complexity when they designed the G11.
>>64286238Whatever happened to all the hype about caseless and telescoped ammo anyways? It was this huge thing in the early 10s then poof, gone down the memory hole.
>>64286408The government wasn't as enthusiastic for it for whatever reason and the contractor responsible for the project is known for being completely inept at palm-greasing.I don't think it was memoryholed, people just lose interest. It's really weird how people just completely forgot about Textron when SIG won NGSW though, most normalfags think only TV and Sig participated.
>>64286408Caseless pretty much died with German Reunification and then the end of the Advanced Combat Rifle program in the U.S, because while Heckler & Koch had developed by far one of the most sophisticated takes imaginable of the concept, it just wasn't worth all of its tradeoffs.I think that if you ditched the hyperburst gimmick, you could dramatically simplify the G11 and improve the rifle a lot, not solve all of its problems, but some of them, and you could just better play into the theoretical strengths of caseless by making it a bit more conventional overall. That wasn't what ACR and the G11 as a project was about, however.Now, cased telescopic is another kettle of fish entirely, that's a concept which I think has very genuine legs still, because having a proper cased cartridge is what you want in a combat rifle. Full obturation, durability, mechanical simplicity, ease of maintenance, you really wouldn't have to sacrifice anything which makes conventional metal cased ammunition good (or, at least I can't think of anything, short of maybe environmental concerns).LSAT unfortunately just sort of deflated though, and ended up getting rolled up into the NGSW circus, which is unbelievably regrettable. Best I know, there hasn't been substantial developments in the cased telescopic stuff which was played with during LSAT, and instead we have... the XM7 and XM250.On the other hand, there has still remained experimentation with polymer cased variants of existing ammunition, and the results have apparently been very promising, working excellently even up to .50BMG, and this being backwards compatible with existing arms I think would make it a more than acceptable compromise over cased telescopic (which could then maybe be pursued again in the future).
>>64286501You can't help but be demoralized by how a competition that could have either revolutionized small arms forever or improved upon brass in every way, granting major logistical advantages to just about every firearm in service, ended up almost regressing small arms technology and wasting taxpayer money while doing it. It's just so shitty and dystopian, deflating in one word.Forgive me for inserting a political comparison, but this is exactly how I felt when I realized what Trump was going to do to Ukraine. It's a bad thing that happened at an even worse time.
>>64286408Midwits shot their load early loving the german space magic and then overcompensated by saying they were useless; while actual engineers fixed the problems but the bad cultural reputations stayed. Combine with Afghanistan and the boomers' final NGSW push, and add the drone revolution, and people kneejeerked away from real small-arms improvements. The only real ones (and they are good) were EPR bullet designs and optics.Caseless has a sealing problem; which is not fixable easily in the range of normal actions. You have to choose between an open-bolt SMG style or a multi-threaded artillery style. Kelgren picks the first, above, because high ROF compensates for the accuracy issues of open bolt; but it rules out caseless for an archetypal M4 style rifle with 5mm-7mm bore, 30 rnds and a closed bolt.Telescoped had the *reputation* for poor accuracy (like caseless' initial overheating rep) and these were fixed by correcting the case head design with a better polymer, which was the historical sticking point. The end-result LSAT CT round bulged like a neck for an instant to seal before cooling/retracting. It worked very well. The only CT round which was actually fielded was the 40mm CT autocannon shell. Its reputedly high barrel wear was due to high pressures and large propellant volumes for the APFSDS shots, not the CT aspect.
>>64286544IIRC the only "evidence" for the alleged short barrel life of the 40CT is three dudes on Twitter, one of whom even said that the problem was fixed a long time ago.
>>64286073Now add modern high pressure ratings to the system and maybe a pseudo-duplex projectile that works like EPR and the results are a warhammer 40k gonzo masterpiece. Power drill size square-drum PDWs spewing 2500 3mm rounds a minute with negligible heat. Add a 3d printed flowthrough suppressor too.
>>64286544Open bolt is in no way better at dealing with the obturation problem. Nor is it a smaller concern.
>>64286890You don't understand the basic mechanical concepts you believe you are talking about.
>>64286501>If you ditched the hyperburst gimmick, you could dramatically simplify the G11the vbr car was essentially that. It could be improved further by converting it to ct. All it would really need is some provision to clear the chamber
>>64286917The ARES-Olin AIWS was a thing.
>>64286540It's kind of a symptom of the modern day corporate excess. Sig Sauer winning a not very well thought out program as the bar-none worst entrant, and then managing to still underdeliver after that, it just fits nicely next to all the enshittification and customer abuse you see from other big tech companies these days.Paul Verhoeven ended up being uncomfortably prescient on this exact point.If it's not the people making your new phone or car trying to bend you over and fuck you in the ass, it'll be the people making your new "Next Generation Service Weapon" as an infantryman. Optionally, a given defense contractor fucking John Deering the army for trivial maintenance shit which a half-decent army mechanic would have been able to just do himself 25 years ago.I think the fact that even the army is getting fucked in the ass in this era of extreme corporate avarice, is actually one of those things which could help all us get some leverage on the rest of the market for all kinds of other things and fight back.
>>64286544>while actual engineers fixed the problems How, exactly? How did they fix the inherently very sensitive and fragile nature of a cartridge made out of a block of propellant?How did they fix the obturation?>You have to choose between an open-bolt SMG style or a multi-threaded artillery style.Again, those aren't solutions. Even when an AR15 has carbon slowly build up in the top of the receiver, or a G3 farts it all over the inside of the receiver with every shot, that shit is nothing but carbon and any grunt can just open the gun and deal with it periodically.Now, if we skip the hyperburst then we can make the G11 a much simpler rifle which a soldier could actually open up and do basic service on, but he still has a bunch of unburnt powder residue all over the inside of the gun.>>64286908Either the breech is locked, delayed, or unlocked, the gun firing from a closed or open bolt position is a separate aspect from this, and it doesn't really affect obturation. If the cartridge is chambered and fired, the action is currently closed, but if there's no case to act as an obturator, you're really not achieving it.Open bolt won't make the unsealed gaps disappear.
>>64286908I do.You don't understand the basic mechanical concepts you believe you are talking about.
>>64286917If it's changed to CT, then it's pretty much a different gun entirely IMO.Might as well do a more conventional action and weapon if you're going to do CT, you can outright reinvent the M4A1, M249, and M240L, but as CT weapons, and they can behave and handle pretty much the same.>>64286446I think that we will see CT again eventually, even if from different people, and even if not soon, the concept is too solid to not eventually explore.
>>64282840>Elementary blowbackToT
>>64287182>you can outright reinvent the M4A1, M249, and M240L, but as CT weapons, and they can behave and handle pretty much the same.You can't, since adding an extractor groove to a CT case completely eliminates its advantages. It would be easy to make a CT G11, it would just push the fired case out there bottom when it feeds. The G11's rotating chamber is inherently complex though, it needs clockwork to pause the rotation to feed a round. The rising chamber design used in the CT ACRs is far simpler.
>>64285822>I imagine it was probably a lot closer to the P90 and MP7,Internal ballistics wise they are close indeed.1.7 gram bullet from 180mm MP7 barrel is 725m/s.1.6 gram bullet 4.5x26R from 180mm barrel is 700 m/s or so (1000m/s from ridiculously long 625mm MKR barrel, bullpup advantage says hi).So energy wise these indeed are close rounds.But then difference starts.Due to insanely aerodynamicly streamlined bullet (record low form factor for guns made in metal) 4.5x26R 1.6 gram bullet has G1 BC if 0.245, 68% higher than 0.145 G1 BC of heavier 2 grams DM31 4.6x30mm bullet.Also due to lightweight case technology (yes rimfire case is more than two time lighter than conventional case) 4.5x26R round weights only 3.6 grams, while 4.6x30 DM31 weights 6 grams.4.5x26R totally kicks 4.6x30 ass.
>>64287182Polymer case is a solid concept but honestly the bullet placement and push through/pivoting chamber ejection just isn't optimal. The whole forwards portion is just wasted space.What we need is a rear extracting complete polymer case that is similar to brass cases but just made out of plastic.The extractor must simply be designed to be large so that it doesn't destroy a plastic rim.
>>64286446>It's really weird how people just completely forgot about Textron when SIG won NGSW though, most normalfags think only TV and Sig participated.People also like to forget that TV's entry wasn't TV's, it was General Dynamics for the entire development cycle. TV bought it out when GD quit, right around the same time Textron did.
>>64287200>4.5x26R totally kicks 4.6x30 assThat's a very meager bar to clear, and you're still stuck with fucking rimfire.
>>64285222>>64285139If you compare Kellgrens theoretical work and practical implementation (MKR rifle) he tonned down his ideas. Caseless RAP round he couldn't produce, he ain't Dynamite Nobel. So he settled to "just" low drag bullet and lightweight case. Still even with downgrade to ghetto tech his round absolutely has no equals in effeciency comparing to existing ammunition, see comparison with 4.6x30 above.Instead of rearranging performance withing existing ammunition limits he completely broke through these limits with his 4.6x26R. however cringe rimless metal case sounds it provided better weight savings than any lightweight cases (plastic, plastic telescoping, etc) of the year 2025.
>>64287239>of the year 2025.Did you mean 1995? Or are you seriously comparing full power cartridges to a necked down .22 Magnum?
>>64287234You thinking "bigger is better". For semi automatic gun it may be somewhat true, you end with NGSW M7 using this line of thinking.But for automatic gun bigger just means more recoil and less accurate and effective automatic fire. For cartridges made for automatic gun like MP7 4.6x26R is just much better in everything.
>>642872471.1 grams case mass vs 2.4 grams equivalent center fire brass case. 45% weight.Year 2025 plastic cases are 50% weight of the equivalent brass center fire case.It's little crazy how this ghetto tech kicks LSAT ass made by multibillion defense corporation.
>>64287239About RAPs I should add that they also politically unacceptable.Sweden was pushing ideas to ban American 5.56 round as inhuman because if it's fragmentation.RAP rounds with sustaining motor like Kellgren suggested fired at close range would have their motor burning inside targets body. No way it would fly with Sweden government.So even if they provided ballistic advantage this way was completely closed to him if he made rifle for Sweden military by politics.Still sustained motor RAPs are very curious, besides more effecient ballistics for one thing they don't have wind drift when motor is working. And wind drift wlia most difficult thing to account during aiming especially for infantry rifle without elaborate fire control system.
>>64287255Non-sequitur and false dichotomy. Regarding the 4.6x26mmR and 4.6x30mm as underpowered and meek from an infantry rifle perspective, is in no way the same as arguing for going back to battle rifles.5.56x45mm (and 5.45x39mm) is literally THE perfect power balance for an infantry rifle, there is no other sensible option for the U.S Army but trashing the NGSW program and sticking with 5.56mmBoth the M4A1 and the AK74M have:>very flat trajectories and good effective range>close to no felt recoil at all, these are very easy weapons to shoot and control>lightweight ammunition where you can easily carry 240rds or 300rds in aluminum or synthetic magazines>very strong terminal ballistics, both 5.56mm and 5.45mm will make entrywounds the size of a fist at CQB rangesFuture improvements to me would in the immediate sense be to move over to even lighter weight polymer cased ammunition for these cartridges, and at some later future point a cased telescopic copy of the 5.56mm.>>64287288>Sweden was pushing ideas to ban American 5.56 round as inhuman because if it's fragmentation.Unsurprising, but it sounds like the typical liberal demsoc virtue signalling noise, and which couldn't really amount to anything, because it was immediately at odds with reality on its face, and Sweden was essentially a secret NATO member during the Cold War, NATO wouldn't have allowed it.>RAP rounds with sustaining motor like Kellgren suggested Ok, I need to stop procrastinating and read this paper, I love fucking this madman.
>>64287192>You can't, since adding an extractor groove to a CT case completely eliminates its advantages. Would it actually have to? You could easily still have significant weight and bulk savings with just the mere case head and its extractor groove being an aluminum or brass alloy for the sake of an extractor, the rest of the case being polymer and telescoped is still there.
>>64287342>I love fucking this madman.Oh man, that's an excellent typo to make.
>>64287134the explanation is quite simple
>>64287165ACR, LSAT and NGSW patents show that obturation with telescoped cases has been solved (looks like?) for a while now
>>64287206Textron patented a bullpup CT rifle that ejects backwards. They also patented conventional rifles that feed backwards. The ejection port was located above the shooting hand. Stoner and ARES patented a forward eject system for telescoped ammo too. Will upload pics asap
>>64287377That doesn't mean anything, patents can make all kinds of claims which aren't necessarily reflected in reality.
>>64287288>Sweden was pushing ideas to ban American 5.56 round as inhuman because if it's fragmentation.Source? I've never heard of this before.Strikes me as very strange if this happened in the 70s, because the Swedish army was already in the process of testing various 5.56NATO rifles to replace the old G3s as the Swedish army's new standard service rifles in the mid 1970s.
>>64287380they even patented a dual feed mag+belt fed carbine. Never forgive them for what NGSW took from us
>>64287380>>64287389same telescoped chamber and bullet as the steyr acr but with forward eject, like in a desert tech mdr.
>>64287380>>64287389>>64287398
>>64287182imo the best way to get ct to take off is to get a toehold in the civilian market. Needs to be something cheap, accessible, and performant from a bigger name manufacturer. A ruger blackhawk with an added front recoil shield to stop the rounds falling out plus supersonic 300 blackoutish ct round. A carbine could also be an option since the obturator should be able to seal the cylinder gap
>>64287380>>64287389>>64287398>>64287404Textron patented a CT case with a tapered cap at the front that mimics the shoulder of a normal bullet to make it usable with normal feed and extraction systems (with some modifications). Ultimately though you miss out on many CT benefits so it makes sense why it wasn't implemented. At that point just make a normal bullet with different materials.
>>64287410CT will only take off if there is an urgent need for maximum combat load AND with strict weight limits that can only be achieved by CT. Otherwise you will only see slight modifications to conventional bullets.
>>64287386>Source? I've never heard of this before.I've never heard of it either, but it would not surprised if there was some angry and retarded noise about it from the socialists and communists because of Vietnam.We had it pretty damn bad with Communist sympathizers here during the Cold War, like the Left Party celebrating in the streets when the Khmer Rogue took the Cambodian capital.
>>64287165>all over the inside of the gunLook at a picture of an open-bolt system like an Uzi. You don't care about the gaps and powder residue because you're not pumping it into a confined environment like a german autist farting under the covers.>>64287384LSAT repeatably proved CT sealing with over 100k rounds, obturation-seether. I suggest you read some of the interviews and documentation.
>>64287430Political resistance to non-ocepicking bullets is bizarre Euro quirk which has died down significantly in the last 15 years, but still hangs around today.
>>64287476>Look at a picture of an open-bolt system like an Uzi. 1. The Uzi will in fact obturate, because there's a (usually brass) casing inside of its chamber when it's firing, even with advanced primer ignition there is still obturation happening.2. Open bolt does not really change anything at all about this.3. The amount of potential unburnt powder reside (which, mind, is not going to be same kind as used for the G11's caseless cartridges), is going to be completely negligible, and it's virtually all carbon.
>>64287476Actually, I completely misinterpreted your previous post about cased telescoped ammunition.Yes, I would 100% believe that they were able to achieve efficient obturation, there are many different plastics and other synthetic materials which would have the right strength and ductility to do basically the same thing as brass. Aside from decades of plastics being used for shotgun shells commercially, I have seen some cool 3D printed casings which provided good obturation.I do however stand by the statement that claims in a patent do not have to mean anything in real life, you can genuinely just go and patent completely batshit nonsense. Pic related.
>>64287342>>close to no felt recoil at all, these are very easy weapons to shoot and controlThis is why US mil doctrine teaches to use 5.56 rifles as semiautomatic weapons, yeah. Also all tests made by US mil (including ACR program) revealed that 5.56 rifles automatic fire aren't effective (aka burst doesn't increase hit probability over single shot).>as underpowered and meek from an infantry rifle perspective,Fun fact: literally nobody complained about lack of stopping power of PPSH SMG, while it's even more meek (600 joules of muzzle energy vs 800 and round nose bullet that produces nothing but icepick wounds). Bullet hose goes brrrrrrrrt.
>>64287386>Sourcehttps://ndia.dtic.mil/wp-content/uploads/2010/armament/TuesdayLandmarkBHaysParks.pdf
>>64287506>This is why US mil doctrine teaches to use 5.56 rifles as semiautomatic weapons, yeah.Because 8 times out of 10 you don't need automatic fire in an infantry rifle. Breaking contact is however a very real thing, and you really want full-auto for that, and not burst, proper full-auto.>(aka burst doesn't increase hit probability over single shot).Burst in something like the M16 isn't going to improve hit probability, no, it's just a really shitty and janky approach to its original full-auto function.If you look at what they were trying to do with Project Salvo, SPIW, and ACR, it was to maximize the amount of projectiles in the air, and ideally before the recoil impulse could disrupt the shooter's aim. The notion was to increase the odds of the soldier scoring a hit, and this did sort of work, these various ammunition types and weapons would in fact improve hit probability to various degrees, but it came with many downsides.>Fun fact: literally nobody complained about lack of stopping power of PPSH SMGBecause it's a fucking subgun which was used for CQB fighting, often in urban environments.Also that's certainly not true, the M43 7.62x39mm cartridge was very much intended to make for the better subgun by giving it more range and power than a pistol cartridge, but without the weight and recoil of the full rifle cartridge.
>>64287574>Because it's a fucking subgun which was used for CQB fighting, often in urban environments.Where stopping power is mostly desired and actually observed. And literally nobody complained about PPSH's funny underpowered bullets effects on target. They complained about range, sure but not about it's power. >Because 8 times out of 10 you don't need automatic fire in an infantry rifleI don't have file at hand so look it up yourself. but US mil current rifle FM literally states that semi automatic fire is superior to automatic in all criterias (time to hit, hits per time) beyond 25 meters. Nice "controllable no recoil" rifle you got here.
>>64282840anons what's the catch here? seems like a great improvement for little added complexity all things considered.
>>64287624>in all criterias You're not shooting to kill or even hit when breaking contact.>Nice "controllable no recoil" rifle you got here.Recoil is in fact still a thing in semi-automatic fire, and semi-automatic fire is even done rapidly in a military setting.
>>64286151>The hit chance improvement of the hyperburst over a 5.56mm rifle wasn't really significantIt was no better than the M16A2 at close range, and inferior at all other ranges.
>>64287356Look at a cross section of a brass cartridge and how much volume is lost to the webbing and primer cup. Powder is filled up to the ogive in a CT case but not ahead of it, so you would have to make the case longer (or wider) to make up the difference. At that point, you've made the ammo heavier, the receiver and magazine bigger (and therefore heavier) to accommodate it, introduced the possibility of case separations, broken extractors, and failures to extract, and not actually solved any problems.
>>64287647>what's the catch hereThe fact that it's complete bullshit.
>>64287764explain...?
>>64287752Huh, contrary to what I've been told. I guess the G11 really was just a shitbird after all.
>>64287647>>64287764https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA433982.pdffound the report if anyone's interested. apparently it's more to do with the powder than the shape. You could then optimize the bullet's aerodynamics, i image.
>>64287822If any of those claims were true, it would mean they developed a new high energy propellant that would radically change the industry. It wouldn't just be shelved and forgotten.
>>64287647The catch is it's fake.
>>64287647It's a new powder formulation plus it tends to be high pressure. The latter is what ended the project: you can't have pressures over about 70kpsi in brass. You need steel or plastic because brass risks sticking to the boltface.You can see similar powder advancements in tank shells and artillery, though in arty it's mostly limited to research since MACS is the 155mm standard.>>64287624>US mil current rifle FM literally states that semi automatic fire is superior to automatic in all criterias (time to hit, hits per time) beyond 25 metersKellgren's idea has less recoil than a M4, so full auto doesn't have the downsides you're used to. Also, manuals are written as a memory aid for noobs. If you actually experience, test, study or fight; you'd know the US learned (and re-demonstrated in labs) that auto in a rifle is superior for hitting laterally moving targets at 50-100m. Geissele nearly sold a new selector to the USMC based on their tests of this.
>>64287846>high energyNo, higher particle volume. This may sound insane if your understanding of physics is limited to Boyle's law, but if you stick around and learn about late 20th century research programs in interior ballistics, you'll realize cooler burning and more powerful propellants go hand in hand.
>>64288014Steel cases have been around since before WW2. If this revolutionary new powder was real and not 110% bullshit they'd just load it in those.
>>64287846Yup. This is what gives it away. the ballistic claims in the DTIC document are therefore 100% bullshit. Like half the powder charge, same pressure, and SUPERIOR muzzle energy? Not a chance.>>64288019Alright so why did this wonderwaffle propellant go nowhere? Where’s my grip-fed 2000ft*lb battle rifle? Where’s my 100rd 5.56 KNOX quad stack mag?
>>64288024Your or I might today. Back then they didn't. They barely had internet communications or wikipedia. They made their money and moved on. Combining revolutionary advances is not something naturally rewarded by government contracting bureaucracies.
>>64288031Taking full advantage of a revolution requires a new gun and a new cartridge, which requires taking a risk on politically dangerous topics and spending lots of capital. Governments hate non-incremental advances. Hobbyists and normal-size businesses can't afford them - we have to pick between adjusting a gun and adjusting a cartridge.That is why none of these advances ever happen. We get neat things one part clumsily shoehorned into the legacy platform at a time, and it'll stay that way until capital becomes inexpensive enough for hobbyists to do both. 50 years from now the 3d printing community will be doing the things the government should have done in the 1990s.
What happened to gun designers making crazy shit like this?
>>64288043Yeah man no one ever heard of loading steel cases back in the prehistoric days of 2005. Christ you people are fucking retarded.
>>64288060Yeah - you're retarded. A neat technical detail is not something capable of driving procurement. It takes competent bureuacrats, politicians, salesmen, timing, and bribes. Look at LSAT, dummy.
>>64288069What that paper is claiming isn't a "neat detail." If it was real, it would be the biggest thing since the invention of smokeless powder.
>>64288031>Alright so why did this wonderwaffle propellant go nowhere?nato standardization i guess? many such cases
>>64287206Textron experimented with putting propellant in front of the ogive, but that ended up reducing propellant efficiency significantly. Early (pre-Textron and Stoner-era) trials concluded that it reduced efficiency by about 30%. Textron's new design allows for better seating of the bullet and propellant compaction, so it's actually more slightly more volume-efficient than brass. Push-through feed and eject is an excellent mechanism and a huge advantage of CT. Reciprocating extraction would nullify a third of the reasons for having CT, because otherwise you might as well use steel case for higher pressures or polymer composite case for less weight (still a bit heavier though).
>>64288299The program director was asked that question straight out and confirmed that there was never propellant ahead of the ogive.
>>64288267The commercial market would have been beating down their door if the military didn't pick up this supposed wonder propellant.
>>64288299>Push-through feed and eject is an excellent mechanism and a huge advantage of CTtrue but the ergonomic issues are big. Bullpups like >>64287380 are great but many have an irrational fear of them. Forward feed forward eject leads to the ejection being placed right where the natural hand position would be (bad). Rear feed would place the ejection port above the shooting hand. Is that good enough or too weird? idk
>>64288074My dear retard, anything less than atomic weapons are a "neat detail" in the situation we're discussing. You're simply as ignorant about business, bureaucracy, and government as you are about firearms.
>>64288055>Taking full advantage of a revolution requires a new gun and a new cartridge,Why? Why not just use .221 Fireball, which is a commercial cartridge that's shorter instead of narrower?
>>64288031You'd be surprised. I don't know about Knox cartridge, but the Army Research Laboratory managed to get 100kpsi with about as much or less propellant than standard M855A1. My understanding of this is really limited, but one way I could see this happening is with pressure curve tuning.
>>64288315The ammo is small enough that you could use a mag in grip design and eject in roughly the normal location.
>>64288321That's completely different, you just use a faster powder. What Knox is claiming is a massive reduction in volume with no change in pressure OR performance.
>>64288322oooh i never thought of that
>>64288319A cartridge case that is not designed to optimize the specific bullet, powder, and gun will, almost by definition, not be optimized for them. Are you mentally 5? Google it. Come back. Tell us the SAAMI max pressure for 221 Fireball. Now tell us how many you can stack in a standard length mag versus a cartridge with a 40% smaller base. Get it?
>>64288326Yeah that's what instantly marks the whole thing as bullshit no matter how hard some retards try to cope about it. If their claims were true, it would literally make all current cartridge designs obsolete overnight. It would be a total paradigm shift like going from black powder to smokeless.
>>64288321Ya increased pressure is fine. I’m aware of 100k having been achieved. But getting the same energy as m855 with less propellant and no increase in pressure implies some extremely fancy new propellant, with like twice the energy density of regular smokeless powder. If it existed, it would be revolutionary.
>>64288363>Tell us the SAAMI max pressure for 221 Fireball.60,000 PSI, compared to 55,000 for .223. What's your point? Obviously you could only fit the same number of cartridges in a given magazine, but it's a commercial off the shelf cartridge with roughly the same case capacity as the Knox cartridge that could demonstrate its advantages without designing a bespoke cartridge or firearms.
>>64288014>you can't have pressures over about 70kpsi in brassBullshit fuddlore. Brass can comfortably handle much more pressure than that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXkmcpk7Brc
>>64287828>punch in address>expect lab or factory or something>get thisyeah
>>64288530dafuq?
>>64288363>>64288422>Tells me to look something up>I look it up>He disappearsWhy is this so common on this board?
>>64287752Take this report's results with a grain of salt. One could similarly conclude that optics provide no benefit over iron sights. And yet every competent military has switched from irons to optics.
>>64288813Here is the thing >From: EmericD>I remembered that during the evaluation of scopes for the FAMAS rifles, the various scopes tested (ACOG, SCROME J4...) were seated so high on the rifle that hit probability was reduced between 0 and 300 m, compared with iron sights.Scopes used during ACR trials weren't so good. They either were mounted too high with chin weld or where plastic fantastic euro crap. Also target set benefitted iron sights: day light fast shooting at chest size target mostly below 300 meters. With active service service soldiers who are generally selected or self selected for good eyesight. Within these environment good iron sight can be competitive against bad optic system. Nobody during ACR trials run Razor HD scope with cheek weld.But yeah hilarious situation. For 30 years were had different authors repeating over and over "main conclusion of ACR program is that optic improves hit probability the most" while it was completely fake news, trials didn't demonstrated such at all.
OP link dead l. Reupload.https://smallpdf.com/file#s=df6c8872-051a-448e-9303-cbc6900c9a95Intermediate caliber rifles are controllable? Our Prophet says "Not!"
>>64288924So the test results were basically "nothing we did improved anything" what a retarded program, did they not get the thought that MAYBE their testing was pure shit?
>>64288924It really encapsulated the era. Insane innovation squandered by directionless people.
>>64288315This is like complaining about missing a fourth crewmember in a tank with an autoloader. It's an extremely minor concern that only affects this second generation weapon platform, and akin to dismissing automatic guns because all the early ones had reciprocating charging handles.Remember: a gun is nothing more than a bullet launcher
>>64282840>750 rounds per magSomething tells me this will encourage wasteful use of ammunition. Not even that it should be a problem, but one mag with essentially unlimited ammunition for any reasonable encounter can definitely lead to some fucking shit happening, especially with a bunch of conscripts.I feel it over complicates an otherwise simple requirement, even in the future 750 rounds is overkill (unless you are EDF), I would give out 100 round mags, nice even number and would make logistics simpler. Would be especially nice if the magazines are somewhat stouter than a 20 round M16 magazine. If someone needs more than, say a few thousand rounds per person, the situation is untenable for any force below elite infantry regardless, and even then, the battle would be long and hard. The average soldier cant survive in such an environment, and the few that would are definitely gonna be a hardy group of fucks, scrounging for shit from the dead to continue the fight.The point is that all that ammo will go to waste when the nigger fighting with the rifle bites the dust. It is a nice concept, but too many eggs in one basket.Also, I would definitely NOT trust a magazine to remain 100% reliable for 750 rounds, if it just uses a spring kek. Hope someone came up with a suitable way of fixing that.
>>64289090>did they not get the thought that MAYBE their testing was pure shit?As shooting tests themselves were organized I see them as been fine.You may add extra target set, like head size targets at 0-300 meters range bracket (very common battfield target people peeking over cover" but whatever.It was more like "advanced rifles delivered to tests akshually were not so good, do better next time".
>>64289090I think it was more "technology can't overcome a lack of familiarity so we're better off continuing as we have been than spending massive amounts of money to force through a huge change for minor benefits at some point in the future."Besides, which ACR would you rather be issued than an M4? If you say G11, I will laugh at you.
Note.Kellgren mentions that gun for good effectiveness of automatic fire should have recoil of 22LR gun. And he mentions "22LR training attachments".Here is suggestion. Practical viability of low recoil bullet hose can be tested relatively easy. Using existing 22LR automatic guns, there are plenty. They lack ballistic and range hit you can use scaled targets. So if you take chest target, scale it to 1/3 size then shooting it with 22LR from 100m rang will closely simulate shooting at full size target from 300 meters. Practical shooting is always better than theoretical calculation of dispersion and shit probability because they account more real life factors.So you can test can concept on budged and make solid case of such concept advantage (or not) before making any new ammo and guns
>>64289191I wouldn't mind a hyperburstless G11 or a Steyr ACR that fires normal bullets. The AAI ACR is alright, I think the flechettes actually worked in that one. And the Colt ACR's optic could go with any of them.Theoretically, IMO, the ideal service rifle is one of two extremes: 6mm ARC with today's doctrine or something like Kellgren's bullet hose proposition. Stoner endorsed the bullet hose idea with the ARES-Olin AIWS, but used a relatively powerful cartridge regardless. Either of these could be augmented by smart firing solutions like TrackingPoint/SmartShooter and other emerging technologies, but full-power carts and duplex rounds/intermediate hyperburst are dead ends.
>>64289214Hyperburst was the absolute least of the G11s problems. Flechettes were a big problem for the Steyr, but far from the only one. I think it's telling that the Colt and AAI still underperformed the M4 despite maintaining the same ergos, clearly they were just flawed concepts.
>>64282904Some bullpups like the RDB have a center of gravity just above the pistol grip. This is extremely comfortable to hold, far more so than anything else
Additional piece of info on MKR rifle.page 230 from Bлaдиcлaв Двopянинoв Бoeвыe пaтpoны cтpeлкoвoгo opyжия. Volume 2. Quoting magazine Ground Defense International 1980, volume VII, № 65Data on MKR 4.6 rifle, 4.6 MKR carbine and 5.56 MKR rifle. Group sizes single shot, burst, and full auto auto
>>64289573Range not specifically quoted apparently 100 meters
>>64289573It's amazing really.
>>64287763Would you need to make a full metal case head though? I can picture just an outer sleeve/band of metal on the bottom of the plastic case.
>>64286151>moistureSingle use water proof sealed mags are a good idea IMHO. They planned to have them for Famas.
>>64289730I'm skeptical of single use magazines, and I feel like water seals add a step to reloading which you could just skip for speed.
>>64287356>>64287192Textron NGSW ammo is 17.8 grams per round (135 grain bullet)i didn't see direct quotes for 6.8 TVC NGSW round weight. But there quotes that 7.62x51 TV cases weighted 81 grains vs 170 grain brass case. 7.62x51 M80 147 grain bullet round weights 370 grains. With some calculations we can arrive that 6.8 TVC 135 grain bullet round weights around 17.6-18 grams. Same as Textron CT ammo without any problems of it.CT is literally useless shit nobody asked for.
>>64288422A research company isn't going to spin off a brand new product for fun. That happening is the successful exception. Basically, you are denying a staple of modest technical advancements (higher volume propellant) based on a chain of insane misunderstandings about business, government, and bureaucracy.You're a manchild.
>>64289115Setting aside the technical improvements, the tactical point of this is making it possible for a single man to do suppression like a machinegun, thereby halving the size of a unit required for fire and manuever. It wasn't so imporant 40 years ago in the cold war when there were massive armies, but today when men have to break down into squad or fireteam size groups due to FPV drones it might be very useful.
>>64289769Psuedotelescoped faggot detected. Do you make extractors for a living or something?As far as I am aware, there are no hard and fast numbers from any of the NGSW contestants aside from Sig. I would very much like it if you showed me where you got that 17.8 g figure. TV's commercial composite case .308 weighs around 21% less than brass as measured by third parties, while Textron claimed up to 35-40% weight reductions for their 7.62 (variation likely caused by whether or not you count the weight savings from the new polymer disintegrating links). TV/GD's ammo is highly impressive in the weight saving department and gets very close to CT's performance, but still can't quite match it because it still requires a metal case head. However, the CT design is a literal *advantage* for novel firearms design. It's frustrating how you can't get that through your thick ESL skull. There are no real problems. It's literally just a straight upgrade.TV's backward compatibility is a huge advantage too. In an ideal world, both would have been adopted.
>>64289867Suppression with meek micro calibers seem like it wouldn't work as well.
>>64290009>I would very much like it if you showed me where you got that 17.8 g figure.
>>64290088How many rounds is that?Does it include the belt or the box?
>>64290088Yeah, that's a really bad way of calculating the mass of the cartridge, for reasons including but not limited to >>64290203
>>64290033Recoil of a .22LR, and double the rate of fire of a MG42, and double the total cyclic firing time per magazine is no joke.I mean, what's your plan? Stick your head up to get shot 10 times with a 3300fps icepick in the face in the time it takes a M4 to fire once?
>>64290657So make up completely for the deficiencies by sheer volume alone? This didn't work out for SALVO, SPIW, or ACR, why would this work out differently?
>>64290740They tried salvo fire not stream fire; completely different principles. The concept here is minimum viable damage, then maxing out everything else. Go on youtube and watch one of the .22LR beltfed videos and see the controllability. Then think about the fact you're getting 4x the ROF of a SAW and 2x the total suppression time.
>>64290088i wonder why they went away from that handguard design. It clearly gives you a place to grab the front without obstructing the ejection port.
>>64290757But each individual shot is still really weak.
>>64290657but what is the effective range? will it go through body armor?
>>64290881It might. 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm are pretty good at penetrating armor, but they have pretty dogshit terminal ballistics once they've spent their energy on doing that.
>>64290926>5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm are pretty good at penetrating armoreverything i've read says otherwise, or limits its ability to penetrate to very close range. 3000 RPM icepicks sound scary but if they're incapable of penetrating standard issue body armor at a mere 100m then it's just a suppression tool, at which point just use very loud loudspeakers to simulate gunfire...
>>64290981I would imagine that they suck at penetrating armor at range, yes.
>>64290981>he didn't read the paperThe minimum requirement for this was having lethal leftover energy after penetrating CRISAT at 400 meters.>>64290868Yes, and? Do you feel like getting ten icepick stabs in the skull by a raging nigger on drugs, because if you read the joule ratings thats even weaker.
>>64290740None of this stupid bullshit ever pans out but that doesn't keep sodabrained retards from soifacing over every half baked concept they stumble across.
>>64290981>everything i've read says otherwise, or limits its ability to penetrate to very close rangeMilitary AP 5.7x28mm penetrates 100 layers of kevlar up close, 4.6x30 penetrates 120 layers. IIIA is about 15-20 layers. You aren't gonna stop them with kevlar. SAPI plates? They stop 5.56 like nothing, they stop 7.62x51 too.
>>64291074that's my point. This weapon can be stopped easily by mass fielding SAPI or better plates. Which is not an outrageous demand. It will be unpleasant to be hit by it, and will mess up unprotected limbs, but it's more bark than bite.
>>64291066BUT BRO, 10 ICEPICK STABS!
>>64291086SAPI plates don't make you immune to bullets because they only cover about 10% of the body, and 0% of the brain. In fact, they're an argument for microcalibers since 10 mini bullets have a higher chance of spraying parts outside the SAPI than a single bullet.Just look at recent history, the US military spent nearly 20 years engaged in wars wearing ballistic plates the whole time, fighting various enemy who were without the means to penetrate our ballistic plates. Were we immune to bullets? No.
>>64291322Obviously I'm not going to argue that we were immune in the strictest sense, but how many deaths in that time were due to small arms fire?
>>64291086>This weapon can be stopped easily by mass fielding SAPI or better plates.You mean intermediate caliber assault rifles?Oops!
>>64291330About 20% IIRC. IDK what that has to do with suppression though. Are you trying to construct an argument?
>take one stray .18 caliber needle to hand>flesh wound>take one stray .223 to hand>hand virtually destroyed
>>64291347An apples to apples comparison would be 10-12 icepicks to 1 556 by ROF, or more depending.
>>64291375It's still no contest.
>>64291340see >>64291347
>>64291345Pretty sure it was more like half that. I was just pointing out that modern body armor is in fact extremely effective, and while it doesn't make soldiers proof from small arms, it goes a long way in that direction.
>>64291469I researched and it was 20% for Americans 30% for British. IOW, plates are great for stopping random sniper shots or 1-2 lucky chest shots when charging into clearing a building CQB style. They don't make soldiers tanks resistant to suppression or immune to sustained fire. In fact, this was demonstrated in the same war. When Iraqi insurgents bundled up in plates, extra homemade armor, and captagon in late 00s Iraq Americans simply hosed them with M249s.
>>64290740AAI was balls deep in all that nonsense. They tried to push the flechette meme for 50 fucking years, got utterly humiliated in the ACR trials, and were eventually bought out by Textron. They went straight to work on the retarded cased telescoped meme rounds, just to miserably fail again. They also designed the gigantic hunk of shit M85 in an attempt to replace the M2 Browning.
>>64290033works fine for 5.56>apparently
>>64291585>They went straight to work on the retarded cased telescoped meme rounds, just to miserably fail again.all available info online says that it was a great success
>>64291585>nonsenseFlechettes were sunk by the low precision machining and poorly understood terminal ballistics of the time. A lot of these wunderwaffen make more sense with modern understanding. We now know how to make flechettes bend every time (3000-4000fps velocity and a differential temper). They lose velocity very slowly. A well made flechette gun will *impact* with that velocity at 1-2km.
>>64291585The boneheaded decision to locate the ejection port right where most shooters place their support hand on their NGSW entry suddenly makes a lot more sense.
>>64291700Such a great success it couldn't even win the competition specifically written for it lmao.
>>64291794the competition saw such obvious retardation and/or bribery that it's not the fault of the design. By the way, LSAT came first and was a smash success, and only afterwards did it get folded into NGSW which was conceptually retarded from the beginning
>>64291767How did you solve the 5000 fps plastic sabots bouncing back at you problem?
>>64291785what's inexplicable is that they had already designed a conventional layout rifle but with aft feed, that would have placed the ejection port over the selector. It makes zero sense why they didn't use that design.
>>64291822I think it was in response to Army feedback, but what that feedback could have been I have no idea.
>>64291767>We now know how to make flechettes bend every time (3000-4000fps velocity and a differential temper).are you referencing any particular research?
>>64291767How do you solve the part where 4000fps combat rifles made soldiers quickly go deaf?
>>64291619That has been contested by some, so I can only imagine how much people would complain about a 4.5mm rifle and machinegun.But hey, what about a 2.3mm caseless rifle? Then you could have a thousand rounds in the gun, we'll just make up for it by making it still go at 3200fps, that'll solve everything!
>>642916195.56 is small caliber but not micro caliber. Would a 5000 FPS 2mm Kolibri bullet storm work? I doubt it
>>64285452>I think electric triggers and eventually electronic firing will be the future>MIC cheaps out like always and sources components from Chinkland>Chinkland puts backdoors into the shit>Marines landing on the fake chink islands suddenly have bricks instead of rifles
>>64292018I figure the expectation is that regardless of calibre over half of shots fired will miss the target anyway, so its better to carry more ammo for the same weight.>>64292025yes, you still have to do some damage, and have enough penetration / accuracy to make lightweight body armor not worth hauling around.
>>64292018>>64292025That is literally the idea, yes. You have to understand these concepts were invented decades before M855A1 existed. Softpoints were illegal magic. M193 fragmentation was a mystery. Tumbling was the cutting edge of military bullets. But what did mark a genuine difference between their era and the blackpowder one was high velocity. Rifle velocity projectiles shatter bones like shrapnel no matter how small you make them. You can go down to 1 grain weights as seen in grenades and this still works.
>>64287647>This with a rebated rim>Straight blowbackWhy hasn't this been done?
>>64291785See >>64289104
>>64285222Heat is the number one enemy of firearms technology. Until we have better alloys that can absorb 90% more heat than our current technologies, we're stuck in the current century. After that is propellants, having a cleaner, more effective propellant.
>>64293383Göran's concept was completely feasible with the technology of the time and even easier to do now. It's because of fuddism and lack of true resistance to it because most decision-makers are also Luddites. FFS, the US is back to using a fucking non-standard battle rifle now.
>>64293464The only actual advancements that come close to making it a reality now are high entropy super alloys and tantalum hafnium carbonitride, neither of which are within a decade of being useful in the industry. Hafnium is extention brittle and can't withstand extreme pressures and cobalt alloys are still in their infancy.
>>64282840>>64282856>>64282931>spend untold billions of dollars of taxpayer money on SALVO NIBLICK SPIW ACR AND OICW >just snip 6 inches off the barrel of an AR15>??????>profi- oh wait
>>64293522I haven't read the article in a while, but he only suggested caseless cartridges ans light-for-for caliber and high BC microcaliber projectiles with *lower* muzzle velocities from equivalent length barrels, nothing to do with short barrels or high pressures. Higher pressures will obviously be important in the future though. But I don't think they're that far out.
>>64287380>>64287389>adding needless moving parts to something that actually needs to just workmercedes cupholder engineering
>>64293464Feasible doesn't mean good.
>>64293561Hey now, at least we got the 40x46mm and M203 out of SPIW/NIBLICK, to put underneath the AR15 with the 6" shorter barrel.
>>64292018Small-minded, we need to go down to a 1.2mm projectile, as long as it goes the same speed you can make up for the damage by spewing 50 of them in a second.
>>64288043>bubbas handload steel case>revolutionaryits notit just creates a gigantic bill rechambering every rifle and having to buy more expensive steel for bolts, extractors and barrel extensionsall this for just the same 5.56 and not even defeating body armor (which the hunk of shit gimped short barrel XM7 cant even do)
>>64293573Space industry is typically what propels material sciences, notice how most of the greatest firearm advancements went hand in hand with the Space Race. I inside once the next era of storage travel starts, we'll start to see more super alloys and ceramics as well as propellants that bring us to the next level. I'm guessing with Space Force being a thing now some of that tech is going to trickle down into aeronautics and metallurgical sciences. Nuclear tech is another aspect, solid state electronic firing from nuclear batteries and gauss rifles, lasers, all the other sci-fi stuff we've fantasized about over the years suddenly become possible.
>>64293625I imagine once the era of space travel*Fucking autocorrect
>>64293599we already had 40mm and that actually has to lug an M203 around hates it the 99.9999999% of the time that they arent allowed to even shoot it
>>64293587Dumb nigger thinks guns are magical solid state black boxes, more at 11>>64293588That's a more subjective matter. But from what we know from actual real life combat against humans, fast microcaliber projectiles would wound just as well, and they're easier to shoot and lighter to boot. It's a lot like the 9mm vs 45 ACP "debate", and now 5.7 and .380 vs 9mm.
>>64293522my wound low guitar strings are made from cobalt alloy, its like having seymour duncan 5-2s but paying $7 instead of $80 per pick up or whatever the hell they charge now
>>64293625It's a pretty idea, but I think it had more to do with the Cold War and the fact the military was a little less anti-innovation then (at times). New materials will certainly affect soldiery, but I think it will be rather gradual, and kinetic firearms will continue getting the shit end of the stick because, unfortunately, they just werk.
>>64293625>"Bro the FUTURE! its going to be so Heckin' cool, We're going to have flying cars and heckin' Laser Beams, oh and we're all gonna like live on Mars, and theyre gonna cure cance, its going to be tits, trust me bro"
>>64293649They're getting cheap. We've been toying with making suppressors out of HEA's, but it's difficult to source. >>64293653The glory of a capitalist society. The gay Green Peace boomers held us back from the future in many ways, once we get over the fear mongering and retards fighting nuclear, I feel like a lot of doors will start to open with the cheap energy it provides. Nuclear is the future we were denied by fat lesbians.
>>64293658I feel like you're Jewish or a woman because only Jews and women add their own retard contingencies to conversations to project their own retardation and insults without having to use a competent argument.
>>64293646>dumb nigger designer forgets the end operator will be spics and niggers using their service rifle to drive tent spikes in basic after they break the safety on their beretta from using it as a hammer firstyeah, your bullshit gun is going to stop working long before any AK worshipping dipshit tosses it in mud to try prove its bad
>>64293660and youre the faggot who read an article in popular mechanics about Fairchild electronics in the 1950s and goes around saying we're only going to have 15 hour work weeks in the future
>>64293667I'm the engineer who literally works with these compounds you fat nobody.
>>64293663Cased telescoped guns have about as many or fewer parts in general, and very few small moving parts like ejectors and extractors. The moving chamber is comparable in "complexity" to a rotating bolt. I don't think you've actually looked inside a gun before.
>>64293675>I'm the engineer who literally works with these compounds>solid state electronic firing from nuclear batteries and gauss rifles, laserssurrrre you are pal
>>64282840Yup I am ready.
>>64293464>Luddites. FFS, the US is back to using a fucking non-standard battle rifle now.I don't want to drag this thread off topic and I avoid NGSW threads like the plague, but since you're in this thread you're a big boy and you can probably read. You should look into the US Army's wound modelling techniques. Army designed and then dictated the bullet (not just the caliber, which gets glossed over) based on a lot of work on external and terminal ballistics, but left the cartridge and rifle up to vendors. I haven't seen it and NGSW discussed together anywhere, but you should look into ORCA, MUVES-S2 etc. A lot of smart people put a lot of work into the problems of terminal ballistics against combatants from the ground up and the result out the other end was 6.8 It would be remiss of you not to even consider the methodologies they developed, their contributions to the field of ballistics and their conclusions and to, rather ironically, dismiss them as luddites.
>>642918215000 fps plastic sabots bouncing back at you problem?
>>64293997Some of the SPIW weapons were known to cause eye injuries to adjacent soldiers.
>>64291794>great successExcellent. I'm sure that means it'll be coming to the civilian market any day now.
>>64293908I wouldn't dare dismiss the engineers and scientists behind the program, hell, I don't even hate Sig all that much. But a big part of their job is fulfilling the customer's demands.Milley wanted a battle rifle (in 7.62 as an interim measure) and justified it with the armor piercing excuse and later Jim Schatz's overmatch anxiety. I have no evidence for this, but I think they rolled all the other programs into this one, sacrificing them, and named it something deceptive like the 'squad weapons program' to further confuse opposition and accelerate its adoption (a bit like the IAR). Now you have a 'light machine gun' and an 'assault rifle' in higher power cartridges than the M240 and M1A; it's all very bolt-on. I've seen what the 6.8 projectile does in ballistic gelatin on GT, it's an excellent bullet. Hell, I kinda like NGSW's methodology of giving everyone a projectile and asking them to propel it at a certain velocity, but as usual with the Army's small arms procurement, there's always a fatal ideological mistake. The smart people aren't the ones in charge, they just want earn their bread.PS: if their terminal ballistics testing concluded that the cartridge has to be full-power to deliver the desired effect, then the requirement should have been toned down, as P(kill)=1.0/P(hit)=0.01 is a worse deal than 0.8/0.1 in actual combat. It's like realizing you need a superconductor while trying to make your brushless motor 10% more efficient or something. At some point you have to think "never mind."
>>64294021others would cause respiration of sabot dust
>>64293908I've seen the wound models and they boil down to near-random hit distributions over critical organs, which is fairly close to reality. >A lot of smart people put a lot of work into the problems of terminal ballistics against combatants from the ground upThis is willful slop and I don't believe it for a instant. Terminal ballistics is not something the military is good at or even historically cares about, and pretending there's any more work behind the 6.8 choice when we know how it actually happened (boomers rotating through a list of shoddy political justifications for anything big bore) disqualifies you from the convo.
>>64294021Limit them to beltfeds.
>>64294119Justification for the 6.8 cartridge came from the Small Arms and Ammunition Configuration Study that was never made public. I've seen enough random quotes from it though that I'm pretty sure the NGSW cartridge is not what the authors had intended.
>>64294135>assistant gunner gets eye injuries instead and both of them still inhale glass fiber sabot dust
>>64293908>>64294071There was big mistake that Army supplied surrogate projectile that is nothing like combat GP round. I know GP round is sicrit and all. They could've made something like copper solid that replicates GP engraving geometry and center of gravity. Asking for cartridge development blind hiding its bullet is asking for big problems.
>>64293610>>64292018There are limits how much you can downscale bullet before its stop fulling terminal ballistic requirements. Set by Kellgren as pic In theoretical work he estimated minimum convectional bullet for 300 meters range as 3.5mm caliber 1.42 grams bullet driven by 0.37 grams gunpowder at 865m/s.In practice (as it often happens) his optimistic theoretical estimations were downscaled. Minimum bullet fulfilling these terminal requirements grew up too 4.5mm caliber 1.57 grams bullet driven by 0.57 grams gunpowder at 1000 m/s
>>64294602>There was big mistake that Army supplied surrogate projectile that is nothing like combat GP roundThe government furnished projectile was intended to be the combat bullet. It was iterated on a couple of times through the course of the program.
>>64294560Don't use glass.
>>64294648We can use higher pressures than he did. 80kpsi instead of 50k. Even 120k is viable today.
>>64294687>4.5mm at 80000psi>let alone 120000psiI'm assuming you're looking to abandon rifling entirely at that point.
>>64294687>We can use higher pressures than he did. 80kpsi instead of 50k.Not with a rimfire case weighting 1.1 grams...But yeah today composite case like TV probably can have similar weight and much better pressure and better internal ballistics you can use however you want (increase range, reduce caliber and ammo weight, make barrel 10'' lenngh like in M7 rifle (just kidding that is stupid) etc)..
>>64294695Larger calibers are harder on rifling, anon. Battleships guns have like 300 shots barrel life with less velocity and barrel pressure than 5.56.
>>64294726It's more that I'm thinking along the lines of .277 Fury with the Sig XM7 Spear, that's a 6.8mm projectile being put at 80000psi, and it legit eats its barrel in under 2000rds, it erodes like a fucker by the gas port, which is why the piece of shit ends up shooting +6MOA or even worse.A smaller caliber would probably not do much better at the same pressure, again, much less at 120000psi.
>>64294726A hot rodded .22 centerfire like .220 Swift or .22 WSSM can burn a throat out in less than 1000 rounds. Sometimes as few as 2-300 if you're doing something like high volume prairie dog shooting.
>>64293587what do you mean? if anything this is simpler than a conventional weapon because there's no longer an extraction or ejector
>>64294884Also correct, there's no free lunch with this shit, and mind that an infantry combat rifle (which is suggested here to be used here especially for suppressive fire), is going to have a much higher volume of fire through it in a much shorter time.This is why a rifle in .243 Winchester or .270 Remington can last for about 5000rds per barrel, which isn't like a ton, but with those kinds of hunting and target rifles you're going to get there slowly, while the XM7 shits itself in like a fourth of that time.
>>64294648for today it would have to be enough energy to pierce a SAPI (ESAPI?) plate and still have some leftover wounding power
>>64294931>SAPI (ESAPI?)GOST BR4.
>>64294931Why would any rifle be required to pierce a plate? It makes no sense. Soldiers are not tanks. They're 90% uncovered by plates.
Optimizing for hitting stationary targets in the middle of a plain at 700m is counterproductive. Optimizing for 200-300m is traditionally good, but in the age of drones it's less important than it used to be. We need to optimize for CQB under 100m.
>>64295029I don't think the kind of small drones we've seen in Ukraine are going to throw things on their head, we're just going to have drone defense measures on the squad level, which maybe aren't always going to be 100% effective, but which will ensure that a squad isn't just automatically fucked when one comes flying to towards them.
>>64294976seems reasonable
>>64294993>They're 90% uncovered by plates.nobody's survived a trench assualt by shooting at people's shins and forearms...
>>64295137The top three forms of small arms kills in Ukrainian trench combat are: semi-random hosing of fire around a corner (most common category) all over their body, killing them by shooting through their shoulders and hips from the side in a crossing shot (2nd most common) or shooting them in the head and neck (3rd most).Nobody tries for low rates of fire or slow aimed shots at plates.
>>64295180then the question would be what kind of energy transfer and terminal effects would a tiny bullet like this have? you don't want to just kill the enemy by bleedout 10 minutes later; you want to knock him down now when he's in front of you. What's the stopping power of an MP7? That would be a good approximation.
>>64295073>we're just going to have drone defense measures on the squad level,Unironically microcaliber assault rifle with no recoil, 30 rounds per second fire rate and 200 rds magazine is the best kinetic kill squad drone defense...
>>64295390It's going real fast and given it's long and slender it will immediately go sideways, maybe breaking up.
>>64294931Tell this to assault rifles users first >>64291340
>>64294827It still has 7 times barrel life of battleship main gun having twice as much barrel pressure.
>>64295390>. What's the stopping power of an MP7? its okhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wuJBt8RTxUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5SFU3Oggo
>>64295575I don't want to get shot bros... it would be so painful and scary...
>>64295575how well does ballistic gel match real stopping power? is stopping power even a real thing or just a meme?
>>64295402Or, you know, just a normal and sane 5.56mm rifle which has an underbarrel drone shotgun and an additional sight for drones.
>>64295390>when nobody read the fucking paper the thread is about :(Kellgren explains that this is the key concept justifying the microcaliber mini-bullet spewer on page 1. Only hits to key organs like the brain and upper spine can instantly stop a human being. The other 85% of hits can be disregarded. So 10 shots trying to hit the brain are better than 1 shot which might do slightly more tissue damage somewhere else.
>>64295842"Slightly more tissue damage"
>>64295469What the fuck does a battleship gun have to do with a service rifle you stupid motherfucker.
>>64295866Read the paper and come back nigger. Fuck, read about last 30 years of ballistics or the last 100 of combat experiences. 1 icepick in the brain has more "stopping power" than a 30mm cannon to the foot.
>>64295874My point the larger the caliber the less its barrel life. Smaller calibers have better barrel life all things equal.>inb4 5.56 has lowish barrel lfie than full caliber riflesall things equal. 5.56 runs at 60000 PSIFor example .300 Winchester Magnum runs same pressure and has 2000 (lose accuracy) - 4000 (barrel kaput) rds barrel life
>>64295936And like >>64294884 said, a hot .22 can burn one out in less than a thousand rounds. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
>>64295952>all other things equal
>>64295784Shotguns are suboptimal against drones.The range is shit, capacity is shit, followup shits are SHIT
>>64294726>Larger calibers are harder on rifling, anonIt's the throat/leade area that erodes, not the rifling. And it happens much, much faster on smaller bores.
>>64286212>were widely adopted centerfire equivalents to 22LR and 22 Magnum.It's called 5.7x28. people hate it because their identity is attached to 9mm.
>>642965165.7x28 is a little bit too much OAL to be perfect. I want a 5.7x19 or maybe a straightwalled 6x19 pocket pistol.
>>642959365.56 runs at 55,000 PSI piezo. EPVAT numbers are not directly comparable to piezo.
>>64296532>.25 ACP was too powerful so he had to invent .22 ACP
>>64282840>>64289057Both of these links are dead. Can some kind anon reupload the file?
>>64295842>slightly more tissue damage
>>64296553Unfortunately .25 ACP is semi-rimmed. We need a good cartridge which is to 9mm as 9mm was to .45.>>64296671https://www.mediafire.com/file/35dqn59zj7crag7/Rifle_Rounds_Physical_Limits_Kellgren.pdf/file
>>64297034>We need a good cartridge which is to 9mm as 9mm was to .45Oh, you mean .30 Super Carry.
>>64287504>US3216423Aseems funwhy isn't this used everywhere
>>64297047Just wish they would have made it a bit longer for more volume instead of matching 9mm
>>64296532Imagine a cased telescoped SS109 handgun cartridge. Hngh...
