>>64289063
Germany needs a new law, any politician proposing cooperation with the french should immediately be executed on the spot.

>Can France make a 6th gen plane by themselves?

They couldn't even make a 4th gen, Rafale was the worst 4th gen by far.

>Can Germany?

Ofc.

>>64289076
Germany really doesn't have the experience the French and the British do so to think they could do it easily is questionable at best.

>>64289063
>Can France make a 6th gen plane by themselves?
No, they don't have any money. That's why their government collapsed the other week and everybody is on strike at the mere suggestion that they need to tighten their belts

Dassault however, are too far up their own asses to realise they are part of the problem with France's economy and that their days are numbered if they don't give something significant up to the Germans

>>64289106
Are you retarded?

>>64289125
Are you?

>>64289063
>Can France make a 6th gen plane by themselves?
No
>Can Germany?
No
>Are there other partners they could get to replace each other?
Probably not for france. They want a carrier plane that noone else needs, so they're on their own.
Germany could probably partner with spain and sweden to produce a less ambitious plane/drone. And then buy either american or GCAP on top.
>Are the dreams of a European 6th gen fighter dead?
GCAP exists.

>>64289138
>people have been asking Macron to stop funneling billions into zelenskyiv's pocket but that's a no-go for some reason

t. Pierre from Chelyabinsk Provence

>>64289063
Bongs have had relative success collaborating with both countries on aircraft projects. As far as I know, NOBODY else has ever managed to do it with France and I'm not sure why they still bother trying since it always ends up the same way.

>>64289138
>zelenskyiv
man that word really mindbroke you guys, didn't it?
also
>funneling billions into zelensky's pocket
you're delusional lol. why are you on this board?

>>64289154
>n-none of us
you don't belong here lol
>care
clearly you care quite a lot since you have to gush out your schizo fantasies about ukraine every time the subject is brought up.

>>64289163
>NAFO
Rent free

How many years and billions were wasted on that still born project?

>>64289163
>NAFO
not on this website, they're back on twitter and reddit, where you came from.

i still don't understand what they did to you guys, how'd you let a bunch of reddit-types mindbreak you like this, i only learned about them after zigger tourists like yourselves kept mentioning them off-hand.
>ukraine lost
which is why russia keeps begging for ceasefires of course.
>got smoked
they smoked russians, actually, they took minimal casualties and killed a lot of ziggers, and also forced ziggers to bomb their own civilians for a change. remember russians are losing the attritional war, i know real statistics upset you but that's how things are going.
>samefagging
no, i just individually replied to both of your seethe posts, i get that you're a tourist, zigger-san, but that's not what samefagging is.

>germany-considers-split-from-france
That's novel because its normally France that "rage quits" once it has enough information to make their own.

>>64289154
None of us in Paris oblast?

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Germany should leave FCAS and join GCAP/Tempest in my opinion, even if it would mean a junior position compared to the existing program members
it would be better, Germany doesn't need a carrier plane so the trade-offs wouldn't make sense for that capability
I just hope the decision is made soon so that no more resources are wasted on the joint project which will likely not succeed anyway

>>64289063
>Can France make a 6th gen plane by themselves?
Lol no

>>64289231
Too late, Japan wouldn't accept as it'd delay the project.

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At this point I can only conclude that Europe cannot function long term. Imagine if New York broke off from an F-35 development program with Texas and California over some petty shit.

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>>64289154
>lil bro

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>>64289314
license production with integration of German subsystems would be fine too imo, as long as German aviation industry gets work

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>>64289163

>>64289315
>I don't understand what either the US or EU are
ok anon

Germany, Spain and Belgium should join Sweden to develop their own 6th gen.

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>>64289163

>>64289315
Europe isn't a country you stupid nigger

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>>64289357
Ror
Rmao

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>>64289138

Nigga, even if France would stop spending money on Ukraine it would barely make a difference in their disastrous financial situation.

They rank in terms of total money spend amongst countries 1/5 their size. Most of the aid is shit weaponry they cannot even sell. Furthermore it's money they throw towards their own MIC essentially going into their economy.

>>64289231

Stop posting that dumb idea of Germany entering GCAP. There will be no way in hell this will happen. Japan is already pulling out all the stops to accelerate the program. Germany mostly wants to keep its current MIC around building the Eurofighter/Tornado and expand on it. A heavyweight like Germany would want a significant chunk of the workshare. This is NEVER going to happen. Germany would have significantly smaller role manufacturing wise if they went with GCAP than with the current Eurofighter and potentially FCAS.

In 15 years when those planes will fly the Ukraine war will be over and the MICs will have to shift back to being an economical factor for all involved countries rather than an existential one. Germany knows this and that's their main reason for having their "own" fighter.

The only way I can see this going anywhere is that they agree on some common parts of the plane like engine, radar, weaponry, drone. Then everyone builds their plane based on these technologies. A carrier-multirole for France (with Dassault) and a long range intercepter for Germany (with Airbus, Dassault and/or Saab).

The only reason Germany hasn't jumped the ship yet is because the FCAS is a political symbol (France: good, Britain: traitors, bad) and a way to support the failed state that is France without directly pumping money into them.

lmao he's on full throttle today

>>64289163
I definitely double believe you're French now

>>64289140
Bretagne has 1 carrier, italie has 2, japan as well

>>64289154
You need to be 18 to post here, pajeet.

>>64289231
>Germany should leave FCAS and join GCAP
We don't want them

>>64289357
Shut up beans on toast.

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>she's still mad about some furfags shitposting on twitter

>>64289362
What happened here?

>>64289401
I'm guessing it's from that time that chink soldiers ran away and left a bunch of civilians to die in Africa

>>64289063
German options are;

Be cucked by the French and except their demands of 80 percent workshare and full intellectual property rights over all technology development to keep FCAS on track.

Go it alone and develop their own indigenous FCAS design and hope that Spain and Belgium will join them, even though Germany outside of the consortium has not designed and built a fighter since 1945.

Ask to join GCAP alongside the United Kingdom, Italy, and Japan in some kind of capacity like observer status or junior member.

Ask to become a partner in the Sweden FCAS program, which is currently in its early stages of development.

Beg Trumpnistan for the F-47 along with 80% feature complete unlock codes.

What blew up this time?

>>64289414
>germany, italy and japan back together
What could go wrong

>>64289415
One HAMMER a day keeps the zigger away.
So probably something related to that.

>>64289231
France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan), where none of the companies involved (BAE, Leonardo or Mitsubishi) have any experience as part of the original JSF design program or assembling F-35s locally

>>64289445
None of what you said is true you fucking retard.

>>64289445
Bait used to be believable

>years
A lot
>billions
Some millions at best, the project still only exist in paper.

>>64289151
They had leadership positions on the parts of the Concorde they were responsible for and didn't on the parts they had no involvement in. When they tried to exert control over those things they were promptly told to fuck off. It's really that simple.

The issue is Germany entered a partnership when France needs to be treated like a contractor. Plus Germany was retarded anyway since the French have always demanded carrier capable aircraft. If Germany doesn't want to pay for that they should tuck off because that's always been the entry point for the French.

>>64289345
Good ending. Nfw it happens but I'd love to see it.

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>>64289401
>What blew up this time?

Because of the 3 day special military operation, Russia was excluded from the Eurovision Song Contest 2022.
In 2023 the Russian Ministry of Culture announced the revival of Intervision Song Contest to be held in Moscow 2025.
A total of 22 countries participated, included China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Belarus, Vietnam, Venezuela, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Madagascar.
The results were determined by an international jury from the competing countries. Each competing country provides one juror, defined as "a cultural figure from their respective country recognised as a professional in the music industry".
Russia’s participant Shaman was favourite to win but on the day Vietnamese singer Duc Phuc won Russia's Intervision song contest, on Saturday.
It was hailed a “great success” by the Russian government although they admitted there were some teething issues like the voting process which need to be streamlined.

>>64289414
There's like 50 more EU states begging for investment in high tech industries.

>>64289561
>Vietnamese singer Duc Phuc

>>64289561
>Duc Phuc
I bet they do

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>>64289163
>>64289193
It's a common shill tactic, trying to convince the world that the everyone disagreeing with them is either paid or some fringe group because clearly regular people think this invasion a 5D 300IQ gigabrain move and not a clownshow at all kek
This leads to hilarious shit like them advertising nafo more than anyone could, hell, i wouldn't even know it existed would it be not for glavsets incessant shilling spergouts
It isn't very well thought out though, since it makes them stick out like a sore thumb, but no one ever claimed they send the smart ones here, we only get the dregs that are too dumb to be trusted with the serious shill campaigns

>>64289579
>European countries other than Germany with experience in building jet fighters:
>Britain, France, Italy, Sweden, Czechia

Of those, Britain and Italy are already quite far ahead with their own programme and are unlikely to want any more chefs in the kitchen, France has been tried and it seems to not be working out so well, Sweden are a possibility, Czechia possibly as well in some capacity though they are lacking experience in more advanced designs. There might be some options outside of Europe, but I don't know how feasible that would be as an EU member with possible trade restrictions outside of the EU.

>>64289345
It's gonna be more like a gen 5.5 with those partners. The software and sensor integration is there but no one competent to work on 6th gen hardware and engine.

>>64289647
Oh wait, I forgot Spain. They were part of the Eurofighter consortium so they could be an option as well.

>>64289380
>Bretagne
>Italie
Frog spotted

>>64289649
If you are looking for a European partner to build jets with and Britain, France and Italy are not options for one reason or other then your next best bets are Sweden and Spain. Others you could possibly get involved just for money put into development but don't have much to bring technologically themselves.

>>64289675
I think the rest of Europe should just suck it up and hope to get discounts on the GCAP because unless they can make a very cheap 5.5 gen it's going to have no market fit.

>>64289647
Theres more things than engines, besides, Europe desperately needs a buildup of hightech industries. If the argument is "they have't done that until now" then the whole project can be shitcanned becaue nobody in Europe has done network enabled multispectrum high performance and all the other matketing terms stealth fighters until now either.

>>64289681
Well if they do end up just buying Tempest purely as a customer it would make it cheaper for them as it would mean higher build numbers and so better economies of scale. Also means they don't fund development although the flip side of that is they lose out on the technology.

>>64289687
Of course there is a chance that Germany goes Super Saryan and just gets the Nazi Scientists on the job.

>>64289063
They should just skip to the 7th generation so they’re way ahead of everyone else

>>64289063
no european country will ever have a 6 gen fighter jet
they are all too broke
only the us will have it
mark my words

>>64289687
Italy is the key player for ISANKE and other avionics in GCAP. The issue is that whenever there a good startup in Italy related to defence the US sweeps in and buys the whole company before Leonardo can even make an offer.

>>64289702
>>64289681
that's why license production would be best for Germany, kinda like what Japan did with the F-2 vs the American F-16. GCAP already fits what Germany needs pretty well, so what's the point for extra development work in Germany

>>64290006
The F-2 is much more than licensed production.

>>64290026
call me when your country is not bankrupting itself in an attempt to subsidize the existence of browns and baby boomers

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>>64290031
I know, if you can/want to elaborate to hear what exactly it is
anyway it seems to me it would be a good blueprint for Germany to ask for something like what the Japanese did with the F-2 with GCAP, but that's just me imagining things

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>>64290127
>if you can/want to elaborate to hear what exactly it is
*I'd like to hear

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>>64290127
Japan had valid reasons for developing the F-2 to have better range (almost twice of the combat radius) /radar etc but Germany doesn't even have a real need for the GCAP which is trying to be a long range high cruising bomber/fighter with China in mind as the enemy.
If they go out of SCAF then it makes more sense to buy the GCAP as is. Any modifications could mean years of delay and cost overruns that germany alone would need to face.

>>64290114
Still better than bankrupting itself to maintain the privileges of a handful 1% billionaires

>>64290157
I mean workshare for German industry is a real concern, and so is the increased range and payload vs Russia; Germany doesn't need a carrier capability which forces lower weight+range+payload like France does
but yeah the most reasonable take would probably be just license production of GCAP

>>64289345
too good to get true

>>64289649
more than good enough

>>64290165
No it isn't

>>64290202
>and so is the increased range and payload vs Russia
I thought it would be beneficial? Gives them depth.

>>64289063
Spain has announced they are on the side of Germany in this.

>>64292420
source ?
big if true btw, fuck frogniggers
They can have dassault dick up their asses for eternity, if that's what they really want

>>64292420
>Spain has announced they are on the side of Germany in this.
Of course they are. The French absolutely lost their mind.

>>64292445
>source ?
e.g.
https://www.euractiv.com/news/spains-sanchez-backs-germany-in-fcas-fighter-jet-dispute-with-france/

>>64289063
France doesn't really have Options due to budget constraints
if Germany leaves, their own jet will be subpar

most likely they'll stay
Dassault CEO Trappier gets a (lightly) slapped
and the Project will turn into shit 10y from now

second most likely (and preferable) option
Germany + Spain + Sweden + Belgium (+ maybe other EU countries) will secede into their own program
timeline will probably be +5y or more because SAAB is a bit behind Dassault but wouldn't really matter
Tranche 4 Eurofighter is fine and will fly well into 2060s

money currently is also not really a problem on the German side
there's plenty of room financially as well as "socially" (majority of population is very pro Bundeswehr investments) to invest in Defense Projects
another 50Billion€ more are easily doable on their side

>>64293616
>if Germany leaves, their own jet will be subpar
France doesn't seem to mind that historically. Look at the Rafale.

>>64293616
>Dassault CEO Trappier gets a (lightly) slapped
I'll say let frogniggers crashes and burns at this point
Rafail are already getting bitchslapped left and right, flying them well into the 2060s/70s, even with a F5 upgrade (something frogniggers has been hinting several times by now) would be totally suicidal. Well, at least for any normal, competitive armed force.

>>64293688
go back tourist >>>/pol/

>>64289632
>hell, i wouldn't even know it existed would it be not for glavsets incessant shilling spergouts
It was actually a Discord meme lol. Cum/chug/gers got btfo'd by trannies on that site and seethe it into mainstream attention.

Britain: approaching an IMF bailout. Bankrupt in reality
France: approaching an IMF bailout. Bankrupt in reality
Germany: annual BNP contraction because they no longer have cheap russian gas. Will continue forever until they start to mass burn cheap polish coal again. Bankrupt in reality.
Sweden: bankrupt in reality but not on paper
Italy: bankrupt in reality but not on paper

There will be no european 5th or 6th gen. The money simply isnt there. The 6th gen race is China vs USA+Japan+Korea.

>>64293771
China, Japan and Korea aren't doing well economically due to low consumer confidence, which is largely due to the huge amount of people leaving the workforce to retire.

>>64293673
>France doesn't seem to mind that historically. Look at the Rafale.
the total development cost of the Rafale was somewhere in the range of ~75billion€ (adjust to 2025 Euro value)
the total french defense budget today is ~60billion€

France currently is in a budgetary crisis
France currently runs multiple big defense projects (SNLE 3G and missiles, PANG, SCORPION, MGCS although that might fall with FCAS)
in short, France cannot afford another Rafale

it's much more likely that the available funds will be spend on newly developed loyal wingman and iterative improvements of the Rafale

>>64293679
>Well, at least for any normal, competitive armed force.
to be fair to France
their only threats are Russia's and African Revolutionaries / Warlords (so practical the same as Russians)
and the Rafale (or rather Meteor) handles both just fine

>>64293771
>China
has massive public + private debt (higher than the USA and France, almost as much as Japan but wildly less assets)
and face demographic cliff with no immigration to speak of
>USA
high debt, at least grew the last years, probably ends this year though
>Japan
ignoring the looming demographic crisis
basically zero growth

>Germany
>annual BNP contraction because they no longer have cheap russian gas
the actual reason: highly export focused economy but global economy stagnates
russian gas has very little to do with this
inb4 muh expensive energy
entirely homemade problem, Gas always was one of the most expensive source in Germany

completely deranged post
and you're a massive retard

>>64289076
Has the Europanzer taught you nothing? This is tradition at this point.
Each time France and Germany want to start a next generational military project it has to start as a joint project between the two nations before they inevitably fall out and split ways!

>>64289076
>should immediately be executed on the spot.
should immediately be banished to alsace-lorraine

This could easily be resolved by the French government telling Dassault to shut the fuck up and learn to cooperate.

>>64293861
huh?
the Main Ground Combat System seems to progress relatively smoothly
at least that was industry commentary from 2 months ago

although compared to a 6th Gen aircraft, I don't understand the cooperation there
Germany is perfectly able to build the best possible tank on it's own
all the leading manufacturers are domestic ones

the better play here imo
would be to take in other euro countries as Junior partners and give them smaller components
instead of sharing major research / secrets with the French...

>>64293924
>Germany is perfectly able to build the best possible tank on it's own
yeah, with 1 tank produced per year

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>Germany Considers Split From France
It's that time again.

>>64293930
Wonder which way Burgundy will sway this time?

>>64293929
>yeah, with 1 tank produced per year
don't forget to feed the donkey, Ivan

in case you're just retarded
Germany produced ~10 and more new Leopard / month as late as 2014, then it dropped because of missing orders
NOT missing capacity or capabilities
KMW already said 2023 that they could easily scale to 500-600/year within 2-3y notice with enough orders
GTK Boxer is also at ~3-5/month (excluding telford production) and likely increases on 2026/27

armored fighting vehicle development and production actually is the one area where Germany excels and doesn't suck

>>64293823
>completely deranged post
>and you're a massive retard

Your post was just the standard Offical Narrative bullshit. Why did you even bother to post this shit? China's debt has gone into building the world's biggest industrial sector and supporting infrastructure, while debt in the west goes into real estate, heavily subsidized green power projects, personal luxury consumption, financial derivatives and investing in the stock market with leverage. Its competely different. Just look at the three gorges dam. That thing produces 20 000 megawatts of electric power. It can pay off any debt associated with it.

I once again state the obvious: Europe is economically tapped out (a.k.a "bankrupt") and cannot afford any advanced aircraft projects. All the news you see about Germany 6th gen this and France 6th gen that is just their local MICs trying to pump their shares on the stock market. Its not going to happen, and no amount of bullshit can change that fact. It would be advisable for USA + Japan + Korea to pool their money so they actually get a 6th gen into the air.

>>64289401
Chinks learning colonialism isn't all fun and games of exploitation

>>64294736

Europe absolutely has the money, it's just a matter of political will and cutting wasteful spending (immigration etc.) to make up for it. Were slowly getting there unless next election governments shit the floor with fiscal populism (which wouldn't surprise me, especially once Ukraine war ends)

>>64294736
>China's debt has gone into building the world's biggest industrial sector and supporting infrastructure, while debt in the west goes into real estate...

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/25/business/china-property-downturn.html

>Evergrande, biggest Chinese property developer.
>Delisted from the Hong Kong Stock Exchange.
>Collapsed with $300 billion debt.
>Government policies to staved off a sudden crash.
>Other property companies in trouble.
>Property market in grinding slowdown.
>Government propping up property companies to prevent a broad collapse.
>Property slump hanging over the economy for five years with no end in sight.

your either a chick shill or you’ve swallowed the chick pill

>>64295185
Nah but the shoddy chinesium build will

France: no, because they are broke

Germany: also no, because they need a multi-departmental preliminary investigation committee to look into the possibility of establishing a rogatory sub-committee with a mandate to investigate whether there is, across all probably stakeholders of government and industry, a sufficient indication of interest to create a collaborative section on oh wait nvm elections happened cancel that.

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Whatever comes out of UK/Japan/Germany/France/Sweden/Spain/Italy/Pluto, I'll take the one that will be ITAR-free.
Thank your for your attention on this matter.

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>>64293771
Russia: economy is booming, literally

>>64295058
even if
>Europe absolutely has the money
this
>cutting wasteful spending
will never happen
you WILL subsidize ahmed(19) muhammad(14) and aisha(5)
you will subsidize female workforce
you will subsidize hanz(78) and laura(75)
and you will be happy

Some pretty cool Fcas design, weirdly enough, come from ITP Aero commercial page
https://www.itpaero.com/en/fcas/

>>64294736
little yellow hands wrote this post

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>>64295292

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>>64295314

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>>64295318

>>64289414
Are Sverige also calling their 6th-Gen project FCAS?
That would be an interesting emergence of new jargon, from outside US for a change.

They should just bicker amongst themselves for a decade or two and then buy whatever the US decides to export to them.

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>>64289561
>voting process needs to be streamlined
Russia didn't win; something must be wrong with the counting system
"The election isn't in the voting, it's in the counting."
-IOSEF SAKASHVILI SHTALIN

What will be the name of the new french plane?

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>>64295327
>Are Sverige also calling their 6th-Gen project FCAS?

Flygsystem 2020 (FS 2020)
Basically stealth Gripen

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>>64295204
pregnant lady in strong headwind

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>>64295378
or stealth Draken

>>64295383
3000 years prior you would be one of the world's leading astronomers

>>64295371
Super Rafale
The sole reason why germs pulls the plug multiple times, since they aren’t willing to fund a beefed-up 80s design

>>64295407
>Super Rafale
I like that name.

>>64295411
>"Rafale" is a French word meaning a "gust of wind" or, in a military context, a "burst of fire" or "burst of machine-gun fire".

>>64295371
After Mirage, Mistral, Ouragan and Rafale, I guess they could go with Horizon, Cyclone, Aurora, Vortex or Zenith.

>>64295371
Ultrafale.

>>64295314
>>64295318
Why is the countryside so dead and barren here

>>64289125
No u. France built an entire sidestep-MIC just to not get raped by mutts, the UK half-assedly salvaged it and the Germans just kept small core elements due being a literal "allied" colony.

>>64289076
Germany can't make a fighter.

>>64289140
>GCAP
That isn't going anywhere.

>>64293823
Germany has a worse demographic crisis coming than China or Japan because neither of them have an infestation of Arabs pumping out 5 kids a couple who all hate the State.
Japan is stable but has zero chance to grow again. They literally give away money and people don't give a fuck. There's just no potential left in that country unless everyone over the age of 60 dies tomorrow.
The US is fine. Literally the only thing that can stop the US from growing is the US. Which honestly at this point is unreasonably likely, lol. But if half the US doesn't start trying to kill the other half, its smooth sailing.
China is fine. The real estate sector is exploding, but in a way that the government wants it to. The State is clearly going out of its way to deflate the real estate bubble and avoid a crash. By the end of the decade they'll probably be fine.

>>64296922
>Germany has a worse demographic crisis coming than China or Japan
yeah absolutely not
Germany barely makes top 20 for highest median age prediction in 2050
>infestation of Arabs
>>>/pol/
most of German immigration is from other EU countries, or recently Ukraine

>Japan is stable
uh what?
slowly shrinking GDP, growth rates around or below zero, highest inflation in 30y+, population shrink accelerating
nothing indicates stabilization in Japan...

>China is fine
>real estate sector is exploding, but in a way that the government wants it to
CCP cope

the real estate bubble only just eradicated middle class savings and crashed their consumption
difference to the US, the affluent top 10% are not wealthy enough to compensate

and as I clearly wrote, the problem is the debt
real estate is just one component of it
the ongoing price wars in almost every manufacturing sector are way more influential

>>64296922
>By the end of the decade they’ll probably be fine
Vely implessive, can we start discussing 18,9% youth unemployment rate now ?
>youtu.be/8-ugxx-KekY

>>64289110
Gerrmany forgot how to design planes. It's not France's job to teach them again. Germany has to pull its own weight on the program.

>>64289076
>Ofc
lol
lmao even

>>64297970
>Gerrmany forgot how to design planes
you mean except
>Airbus
with over >50k employees and domestic production + development of the currently most sold airliner A320, also military aircraft like A400M
as well as space, satellite and helicopter development + production
>MTU
jointly involved in >30% of all civil turbofans sold

and a bunch of suppliers for every part of the supply chain
alongside DLR (german nasa equivalent), ESA, a few Fraunhofer and plenty of research (~7% of all aerospace related publication are from Germany)

not only that but literally every internationally relevant aviation related company has big R&D offices in Germany
from RR, P&W, Safran / Airbus (France), Dassault, even Boeing
and through significant subsidiaries also Lockheed, Northrop etc.

but sure
no one knows how to design planes there...

>>64298081
Pretending Airbus is German is a cope, it's spread across Europe. Furthermore, there's a massive difference between designing transport and commercial planes to jet fighters. Pretending it's similar detracts from your point.

>>64289110
>>64289140
>>64293787
>>64298081
Except a collapse of FCAS trilateral cooperation would result in severe budget cut for both germs and frogs. If germs+spain and frogs goes separate ways.
That means potentially nuclear scale back for frogs, since new SSBN/nuclear maintenance would cost a significant chunk. No new SSN, either. And they can say goodbye to their nuclear carrier.
For germs, that means no drone expansion. Acquisition of AFV would be slashed, too.
And the joint EU missile defense project would be a stillborn

>>64298172
What an enormous non-sequitur.

>>64298170
>Pretending Airbus is German is a cope, it's spread across Europe
read my post again

~1/3 of all Airbus employees are in Germany
that's exactly why I wrote
>50k+ employees
and not ~160k for all of Airbus...

>difference between designing transport and commercial planes to jet fighters
true, but also Airbus does both
Airbus Defence and Space (a mainly German division) assembles (and jointly developed) the Eurofighter (in Germany, specifically near Munich)
also a bunch of UAVs

so my point stands
and again, plenty of other manufacturers that cover every part of the supply chain
>inb4 some kind of mental gymnastics cope that Eurofighter somehow doesn't count

>>64294736
the first time you wrote about the Japanese-Korean joint venture I thought you were joking, but now I understand that you are actually brain damaged

>>64298170
he's right, krauts might not be the old powerhouse they were, but they are still one of the handful of countries that could pull it off on their own, it won't be as fast or cheap or others but they could do it.
If i had to wager, Sweden would fucking jump on the opportunity to expand their program with them

>>64298706
>but they are still one of the handful of countries that could pull it off on their own
If they could they wouldn't try to strongarm Dassault into giving them all their past tech, if they had something of their own

>>64298748
and what tech would that be ? Be specific
Certainly not the engine nor the flight control

>>64289838
technology ripes over time, what was state of the art a decade ago is standard now. That goes for cars but also for fighter jets.
You pay for being on the edge, an F-22 equivalent is far less of a challenge now for any country or (cooperation of countries) that have an industrial base capable of designing and manufacturing critical components.

Question is: will the US be able to afford a 6th gen in the numbers it plans to have 5th gens without their regular European customers and European direct and indirect investments into US MIC.

>>64298268
So Airbus is 33% German and segmented? Then doesnt that add to the idea that Germany doesnt have all the requisite skills. Assembling Eurofighters is not the same a designing and constructing, yes they played a good part it in but they are far from having all the skills needed to replicate it entirely.
>>64298706
Germany is lacking a Dassault/BAE style company that has fingers in basically every piece. They have great capabilities but currently their aerospace industry is best when working with others and would need to invest heavily to gain knowledge in a fair few areas.

>>64289110
This is the funniest part of the Bi-annual French riots
French Government:
>guys seriously, we've been out of money for 10 years.
>If you want retirement pension at 50, some of you will have to get jobs
French populace:
>Not my problem lol
>30 billion more to the deficits in property damage from riots

>>64289063
Germany needs to unfuck themselves or they are going to remain dependant on the US which isn't a good thing these days.

>>64289076
France and Sweden are the only EU members that can produce fighters these days, they need to team up on a new Eurofighter if they want local capability.

>>64299130
France like every corrupt government these days is spending ~€60b on mining subsidies, they could solve the debt by ending the free ride for already profitable corporations.

>>64299223
What is there to solve? Just a look at this table will tell you how much of a complete meme the entire debt drama is.
https://ticdata.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/slt_table5.html

Why, would you look at that, France is actually borrowing at 3.5% (actually less on the primary markets, but whatever) to get comfy 4.5% yield from US debt. Literally free money glitch right there, and it's actually increasing its stakes, so it's doing exactly what I'm describing. Heck, a good chuck of France's yearly debt interests is covered just by the nice coupon from the US bonds.
Debt excuses are a meme, has always been a meme, and will always be a meme to control the masses that don't understand shit, nor do they understand countries are not just a flux of money, but also have a stock of money that is actually put to work. But can I really blame them for not understanding shit, when the masses are told and taught shit in the first place.

>>64299356
>debt excuse is a meme
Debt is like alcoholism; it's not a major problem... until it is, then it's a huge problem

>>64299356
Greekbro?

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Speaking of Germans breaking their piggybank to get some guns

>>64299788
NO GERMANY NOT LIKE THAT

>>64299800
Ze Panzers WILL be rebuilt

>>64299130
>government has a massive spending problem
>refuse to address it, only plan tax increases to make up for it
>wtf why are people upset?
but you are correct in your assessment that leftytroons ruin everything they touch

>>64298748
>If they could they wouldn't try to strongarm Dassault
it's literally the other way around anon
Dassault wants Airbus know how but doesn't want to give any

and the main conflict point is work share and design direction anyway, not tech transfer (in any direction)
Dassault wants more of the work share while France doesn't want to contribute more and wants more decisions over design choice

>if they had something of their own
cost sharing is a thing
and FCAS is as much a European Vanity Project as it is a legitimate defense project
the motivation never was "we can't do it on our own"

>>64299115
>Assembling Eurofighters is not the same a designing and constructing
yeah but the Eurofighter was designed in German Airbus offices!?

>Germany is lacking a Dassault
i really don't get it
Airbus dwarfs Dassault in every metric
and that's just one company

yes EF is a joint project and fighter jets are not the same as airliners
but other than an abstract "knowledge" no one here can name what they'd be missing

again, the joint projects of the past are rarely motivated by lacking capabilities

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Realistically, could Germany+Spain+Sweden pull off developing a decent stealth fighter with their combined funding and know how?

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>>64300244
Yes. Germany could actually design a real 6th gen fighter.

>>64300244
+Brazil!

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>>64300260
I wonder if a good fighter jet engine could be made by those three countries or if there would need to be help from Rolls Royce or something
anyway, funding alone would justify a multinational cooperation
>>64300346
not an ally, so would probably be unrealistic
then again, I'm just speculating too

>>64300223
>all this crap
Lmao
Here's the truth: Dassault and the French government want the germs to throw the towel on it, so they can be replaced with Gulf states investments.
And you'll just have to take my word for it, but backroom discussions have already shown Germany not being part of the project is pretty much the one thing holding them back, because they're a bitch and a half to deal with regarding exports.
>but other than an abstract "knowledge" no one here can name what they'd be missing
Institutional knowledge of how to manage a fighter project has pretty concrete results.

>>64300433
>Rolls Royce
if frogs (Safran) are out then either just outsource everything to RR or hope that EuroJet will cook something (which is still RR with a few sidekicks)

>>64300244
>Helsing Gripen
I legit have high expectations towards helsing, i hope they don't screw it up
>fuck i might even apply

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Don't worry /k/ we makin' planes and shit.
>meanwhile picrel will be my whole country few decades from now
Phew lads, I don't know who will pilot said planes in the future, but our infantry, navy and support troops are heavily embrowned already, so I would'nt bet on Mahmadi Gossama Sissoko N'golo Douala from Paris too much.

>>64300531
I was wondering if MTU Aero Engines (Germany), ITP Aero Engines (Spain) and Volvo Aero (Sweden) could cook up something good, but I doubt it would be competitive. So I thought it could be like what Turkey is planning for the Kaan, help from Rolls Royce.

>>64300712
there will always be enough qualified pilots, it's a highly sought after position with not that many open jobs

>>64300720
Fair enough, but said jobs are occupied by very smart, educated, disciplined, patriotic young white folks. And we are running out of them so fast you couldn't believe it.

>>64289561
Fun fact: Duc Phuc is also a flaming homosexual whose biggest hit is about a gay romance.

I think Russia lost the memo on their super-straight christian alliance.

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>>64300712
>the demoralizer has entered the chat

>>64300497
>because they're a bitch and a half to deal with regarding exports
you're living in 2015
krauts are now pretty relaxed regarding weapons exports

even the shady sig sauer or HK arms deals now run through their German HQs instead of some selling through subsidiaries until the paper trail is lost
it's actually pretty wild what they approved in the last 3y

>>64300840
And his winning song was about a Vietnamese folk hero that fought against Chinese invaders. That's -1000000 to Putin's social credit score.

>>64300920
I'm currently serving. That is how I know, first hand. Do you even ?

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>>64297890
Ukrainians are all going to go home and carpetbag it up.
The Arabs aren't going to go anywhere and are going to keep having tons of kids that all hate Germany.
That can't be avoided and they will accelerate the collapse of the welfare state in Germany because none of them pay taxes.
Saying /pol/ doesn't change this. "Muh population collapse" is total /pol/ shit because the number one thing a sexless young man obsesses over is sex and why him not having sex means the world is going to end.

Japan is going to stay the same shitty that it is today, forever.
The people there are utterly uninterested in both violence and change of any sort. Material conditions could decline and the average person would make no noise over it.
It isn't going anywhere. They'll tough out this demographic transition better than anyone else because they won't do anything about it.
Pure doldrums forever and ever.

The real estate collapse sucks for China.
But the reality is that they caught the bubble before it popped and from that were able to stave off it giving them Japan Syndrome.
A lot of people have eaten shit, but the state has taken the chance to remake the housing sector in a sane way instead of letting it continue to spiral out of control or become toxic like it is viewed in most Asian nations.
Moving money into industry has boomed price wars in tons of sectors, but when China is competing with literally the entire world and reasonably close to winning, there's a clear light at the end of the tunnel there.
>>64297963
That is not a surprise.
China just avoided its own version of the 2008 crash and has deflated its most profitable industry and remade it through regulation and intervention into a poor vehicle for booming growth. That is a lot of economic damage, even if the end goal is reasonable.
Compared to US youth unemployment in a similar circumstance, the numbers of unexceptional.

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>>64289076
Can we just execute German politicians in general until we get one who will kick all the goat enthusiasts out?

>>64289414
You left out the Israelis taking over France’s place to get a sixth-gen fighter with fewer strings attached than procuring F-47s as part of their broader push towards becoming arms independent.

Not particularly likely with how philosemitic the Trump WH is, but not impossible considering the Krauts already build Israel’s nuke subs. Also, they’ll certainly be having a chip on their shoulder about the French for a while.

why the fuck did we let Israel manufacturer f35 parts

>muh China will collapse
China got this century is the bag. They are not going anywhere

>>64301960
>The Arabs aren't going to go anywhere and are going to keep having tons of kids that all hate Germany.
They're going back, anti-immigration views are significantly more radical and widespread than they were 10 years ago. It'd be a mirracle if something ugly didn't come out of it

>>64301960
>the numbers of unexceptional
not only you've just ousted yourself as an ESL shill. The graph you posted unironically only cements that china is actually doing worse, and that's without anything even close to the 2008.
Aren't chink supposed to be smart ? Or they can only get the lowest, room-temp IQ chink specifically for this shill job, since no chink with half a brain will ever touch it, even with a pole ?

But I was told that EU military, economic and technological cooperation would eclipse the falling USA and birth the new world superpower and herald an age of rational and responsible stewardship of civilisation??

>>64303346
by who, the voices in your head?
nobody ever said this

>>64303346
Is this the "impressive" copypasta?

>>64303420
You see it on r*ddit a lot lately, the usual place for such delusion

>>64289063
>Work on Project with France
>Get 80% of the way there
>France starts to complain about the project
>Cancel project and France takes the data
>France approaches China with the Data
>China agrees and steals the Data
>France complains
>X years later France wants to join with your nation on a Project
>Work on Project with France....

Rinse repeat, the French are worthless.

Germany-Spain-Sweden would be a kino consortium, but it would be too based too happen
I expect the German government to cuck out to France and agree to be subordinate despite paying the same

>>64301960
Man, you know working for my shitholes MIC(if you can even call it that lmao).
You get to see a lot of delulu boomers that don't understand that the world that was 20 years ago when I was growing up is already dead much less the one they grew up in.
They all have the same view of western European stability and economic power that we had in the early 2000s. They simply don't compute that in 15 years most of France, Germany, The UK, Sweden, Belgium etc will either be under brown sharia law, in civil war, or a Brazilian favela tier of a melting pot.
To anybody under 35 this is clear, nobody in my age range is having kids, hell form all the 20ish people I know of similar age only me and one other dude live without rent because we inherited.
Europe is so fucked long term that it is not even funny, I am really looking forward to the high tech first world countries and the 6th gen fighters these new young Brown generations will build, kek.

>>64303662
>France approaches China with the Data
>China agrees and steals the Data
>France complains
I will not argue with the rest as it's only fuelled by your imagination but seriously where does this one come from even?

>>64289063
Airbus has already been looking at partnering up with SAAB if Dassault leaves so the project wouldn't die, the French would just get replaced.

>>64304193
>Airbus has already been looking at partnering up with SAAB

And what makes them think SAAB want to work with them?

And it's not like SAAB is an equal to Dassault... The Gripen is made from a lot of plug and play part coming from every western countries...
Plus from all we know, among all the disagreements there are between France-Dassault/Germany-AirbusDS, the french want a not so heavy aircraft (15t or something) while the germans want a heavier aircraft... And SAAB is kind of sepcialized in lighter aircraft and already said that their vision for a next gen aircraft is a lighter one that other current projects (one of the reason they didn't join the GCAP)

Same thing with the GCAP. The German have been touting joining the program but what exactly makes them think they are welcomed? The brits didn't want them from the very beginning (because of their shenanigans during the eurofighter project, that they reiterates now with the french) and the other probably don't want them either...

Reality is Dassault can do the aircraft alone, while Airbus DS can't. That's why there are plenty of BS hit pieces being published in every medias and Airbus DS is sending empty threats to try gain more share of the project but it's all bluff. And it's pathetic.
Also the reason they are bying off the shelf UAV from the US even though they are supposed to the the lead on the UAV part of the FCAS/

>>64304267
Ok Pierre

So what the frogs workshare in the MGCS project? Also 80%?

>>64304267
>Airbus DS is sending empty threats to try gain more share of the project
literally the opposite is true

>>64304284
Vaguely trying to slap their canon and some optronic from Thales on the thing but they have been eaten alive basically.

>>64296922
>The US is fine. Literally the only thing that can stop the US from growing is the US.
Or the debt. With the exception of just 1 or 2 years the US has "bought" below 3% growth with above 3% deficits every single year since the GFC. It's obvious that this cannot go on forever. It's also obvious that this isn't real growth but just a fiscal pump scheme. Already today the US has a debt-to-GDP ratio like after a major war despite since WWII only having fought skirmishes or cabinet wars.

>>64299130
>retirement at 50
lol
lmao even
fuck off

>>64304284
Wouldn't be surprised if they demand 80 % as well. I hate frogniggers so fucking much it's unreal.

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>>64299356
>France is actually borrowing at 3.5% (actually less on the primary markets, but whatever) to get comfy 4.5% yield from US debt. Literally free money glitch right there
Get a load of this guy

>>64304267
>Reality is Dassault can do the aircraft alone, while Airbus DS can't.
First off Airbus isn't alone, Dassault cucked themselves out of an adaptive cycle engine on that one. Secondly why do you think Airbus couldn't and Dassault can?

>>64304464
Airbus had to partner with the bongs to painfully shit out the eurofighter. They have 0 experience managing a fighter project from A to Z.
Dassault masters every step of design and production.
And given the recent announcement of the French government that they'll follow Trappier's advice to go it alone, the Germ dead weight will soon be cut off.
>BUT MONEEEEY
Guess what, you can be pretty sure that if the government declared this, it's because other backers are already lining up.
Backers from the Gulf states who are adamant that Germany cannot be involved and able to veto exports.
In other words, all the money, no hassle, no IP theft.
The only reason this dragged so long was that Macron was unwilling to be the one to catch fire for the failure of the project. Now that the Germs are threatening to quit, he just has to say "ok".

>>64304267
>Airbus DS is sending empty threats to try gain more share of the project
Do you even into reading comprehension?

>>64300920
that's a terrible rebuttal

>>64303563
>r*ddit
that was your first mistake, going there.

>>64300716
>Volvo Aero
RIP.
>ITP Aero
Do they even develop modern fighter jets?
>MTU Aero
Eh, maybe with some massive capital injection ze German engineering can jump engine generation.
Realistically it would be either collab with RR or license/modification of GE/PnW, if frogs are out of the picture

>>64304708
my thoughts too. Maybe just license produce whatever UK/JP/IT cook up for GCAP, developing the rest of the system besides the engine should be no problem for German/Spanish/Swedish defense companies.

>>64304284
50% originally and germany asked france to go to 33%

>>64304848
>germany asked france to go to 33%
not true

>>64304848
50% and they want 80% for FCAS?
What the fuck.

>>64304589
>other backers are already lining up
Delusional.

>>64305356
They believe India is gonna save them, once Germany leaves

>>64305356
France is a ultra negerified country at this point, so it make sense for them to stick with thirdies.
On the other hand, it would certainly cost a hefty sum for MTU and airbus ds to build a 6G on their own, but the capabilities are there.
MTU Aero are still manufacturing the high pressure turbine for F414, not to mention the expertise on the compressor for various works, it’s not like they are a junior in the field.
Variable cycle engine is a absolute must, btw. So a lot of works up ahead

>>64306302
>MTU
>turbine
>it’s not like they are a junior in the field
quite the opposite
they're literally (or would be) the lead for FCAS

embarrassingly few people in this threat know that Dassault has nothing to do with the engine anyway
>NGFE
it's MTU leading with Safran (that's the French partner) and ITP Aero as Junior

>it would certainly cost a hefty sum
It would cost exactly 0 more to cut Dassault out
Safran could still be contracted if Germany & Spain are willing to give money to a french airbus division without them contributing funds

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>>64306302
>France is a ultra negerified country at this point
>t.

>>64306175
>>64305356
>India
Lol no.
Qatar and UAE on the other hand?
You'll just have to trust me bro, but they already made overtures to being involved in the program on the condition that Germany isn't involved or able to exert any kind of export control.
Few weeks after I learn that Dassault AND the French government plainly state that they're willing to do it alone if the germs keep on trying to torpedo everything.
I WONDER WHY.

>>64289063
These multinational programs are always such a shitshow unless it's one country deciding everything and the others just go along with it

>>64307921
I hope you are right, since France needs every help it can get

>>64301974
That's antisemitism.

>>64307921
>www.secretdefensev2.com/post/scaf-ou-pas-scaf-paris-n-exclut-plus-un-retrait-du-programme-europ%C3%A9en-d-avion-du-futur
> The initial agreement was for a fifteen-tonne aircraft when empty (compared to just over 10 tonnes for the Rafale)

There can never be an agreement between the parties, since french insist of having catobar-capable, henceforth reduced kinetic performance.
And it's not like their carrier group will ever be good at anything other than bombing third worlds.
F-47 designed empty weight is probably somewhere north of 30 tonnes range. A 15 tonnes empty weight catobar-capable for the french would have significant drawback for both germans and spaniards.
All of this, just because french cannot let go of their delusions of grandeur.
At best, what they will get with the gulf states is paypigs for a 5th gen iteration of the Rafale. Nothing more.
China are still way behind the US, but their investment in this field cant simply be ignored anymore, so French should expect fierce competition from china for cheap 5th gen jet in the next 30 years. And the GCAP will likely be much better than anything french can put out. At least, the us won't be exporting f47 to anyone other than nato countries, so there's that

>>64308070
frogs should just eat their pride, build a large heavy fighter together with Germany and Spain and buy a couple F-35C for their carrier, but this is obviously impossible because muh strategic autonomy

>>64299788
Trump has been such a boon for us

>>64299800
>>64309035
yes. 5%. and cut the faggotry out too while you are at it. you leave open too much well poisoning.

>>64289337
>>64289359
Anons, even with that being the truth, what anon was getting at is that the lack of strategic integration is unsustainable.
His comparing it to states of the US infighting was just an analogy rather than a comparison with 1:1 equivalency intent
t.central EUrope

O sweet misery we will live in interesting times and if not then we will make sure to create them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TmmhwQs10s

>>64310030
>and cut the faggotry out too while you are at it
That's going too far, the US would rather glass us than let us ban gay marriages/tranny rights