I only just became aware of the state of China's undersea warfare when another anon bought it up in another thread as I'm a tin can and flattop fan and always assumed that Chinese SSNs were 'good enough'. Turns out they're 10x noisier than Russian subs from the 80s.My question is, why is their entire Sub and Antisub fleet near obsolete or nonexistent? I genuinely thought they'd put more investment into it like they did with planes considering how much further behind they are in this area and how important protecting landing ships would be.Picrel operates more P-8s than all Chinese MPAs combined.
>>64290832Because China's military is fake and they spend a fraction of what's necessary on anything that isn't the most implessive shiny new thing. Compare the size of their army to their strategic airlift capacity and then compare it to the US. Without bothering to look it up, I can guarantee you that they've got similar holes in mine warfare, FOB construction, CSAR and field medicine, and just about everything else that's not aircraft carriers, drones, fighters, and tanks.
>>64290832Hmm
>>64290966What will this airframe exchange my emeralds for?
>>64290941That's actually a good point. Everything that you mentioned that isn't front and center firepower just seems to exist at the bare minimum. Propaganda value?
>>64290832Because they bought into the meme that diesel boats are quieter than nuke boats, and thus that USN subs would get butchered in shallow waters.
>>64291075An element of it is that they're not an expeditionary force and expect to either be fighting at home or right off the coast at Taiwan, so investing heavily in the things the US does to afford it's global superpower status doesn't make sense given their goals, but yea, also what you mentioned. The US's many global commitments means they get a constant reminder of the importance of and feedback on their logistical system, as well as institutional inertia on the unsexy things that were important during the Cold War. The chinks don't have either of those and instead want to project a strong image.
>>64290941>strategic airlift capacityFor what purpose? What pressing need for strategic airlift does China have? Which major land wars on other continents are they planning to wage?>mine warfareLMAO, they've got a stupid big fleet of minelayers and sweepers. Comes with having been a coastal navy until like 20 years ago.>FOB constructionAgain, for what purpose? They aren't exactly waging any colonial wars on the other side of the world.>CSARNo known deficiencies there.>field medicinePerfectly good by all accounts.>Without bothering to look it upAhh, so it's just you making retarded asspulls based on you knowing less than nothing, gotcha.
>>64290832The seas around China are typically less than 200m deep and the deepwater exits are all constrained by US allies. They may be unwilling to invest due to the failure of German U-boat operations under similar conditions, traversing a shallow submerged continental shelf under heavy ASW patrol prior to reaching their operational areas.
>>64291115Right, so even if those things are fine like you say why is the undersea warfare part lacking so much?
>>64291115>China isn't currently in a war so it's okay that they lack the capabilities they would need to effectively prosecute a warYes, that's the point I'm making.
I love commercial airlines being used in military applications.
>>64291134You're asking why the Germans didn't construct a cruiser fleet in the 1930s to match the UK. They held no overseas colonies to necessitate one, so they allocated resources differently.
>>64291150>The Chinese military only cares about building implessive high tech showpieces and not foundational capabilities because it primarily exists for posturing and its fighting ability is purely incidentalYes, that's the point I'm making.
>>64291164Could you explain why submarine warfare is a foundational capability for a continental power? The strategy is 0-2 in prior attempts at great-power competition.
>>64291194> Could you explain why submarine warfare is a foundational capability for a continental power
>>64291194inland strikes seem like a very big part of submarines after ww2 idk
>>64290832submarines- the silent service- are by their very doctrine supposed to be unknown and not shown off in detail.This goes against Chinese face culture and implessive-posting. The Chinese can't show off their fleet of subs in a highly orchestrated parade, so its worthless to them.
At peace and lacking in force projection? We should all aspire to be more like the chinese.
>>64291194Both times it was incredibly disruptive but ultimately the US was able invest more into hunting subs than Germany was able to invest in building subs. China is only making token investments in both because they don't expect to ever need them. It's much cheaper to pay you to spread lies about how China is actually incredibly strong and the US should just give up and let them have Taiwan and the rest of Asia until American politicians hear it often enough that they start to believe it.
>>64291115>>field medicine>Perfectly good by all accounts.
>>64290941>-t. retard boomer>>64290832They have a SOSUS network as their main effort and the SCS is shallow. Submarines struggle to hide in it to begin with. Further, submarines have low speed and payload capacities. If America swarms the sea around Taiwan and vomits a swarm of missiles from our 4 SSGNs, wow, it's nothing. Now they have to slink away for a month to reload. A team of B21s could do that on a daily basis.
>>64291266>ultimately the US was able invest more into hunting subs than Germany was able to invest in building subs. Other way around, Germany invested a greater proportion of it's resources into ineffective assets. By the close of 1942, U-boat losses were proportional to U-boat construction and remained that way until then-inevitable defeat.
>>64290832If they drag a bunch of noisemakers around in their fishing boats the PLAN won't need stealthy subs. Until the Chinese fishing fleet starts sinking and the Chinese people lose 10% of their capacity to feed themselves.
>>64291214Picrel pops up from out of nowhere and starts spitting Tomahawks in your direction. What do /k/?Keep in mind these are loitering cruise missiles that have about 1000 or so miles not kilometers of range and they can hang out and wait a few hours for your DF- TELAR to pop out of the hole you dug for it.
>>64291307The difficulties inherent to sustained operation are really worth noting. Aircraft bases are readily defended and sortie rates remain high, while losses to submarine tenders and submarines returning to base from an otherwise successful patrol exceeded 8th AF casualty rates.
>>64291414>proportionThere's your problem. The US had vastly more resources available than the Germans.
>>64291470Eat the losses then demand a shitload of concessions and the head of the clearly rogue captain (a nuclear power wouldn't attack another).
>>64291461It will be so funny imwhen the chinks actually try something and the blockade comes down.All those fishing cities scraping the sea floor bare will suddenly begin disappearing
>>64291720Ahah yeah I too fantasize about dead people. Have you ever actually done it, yourself?
>>64291762>chinks>people
>>64291470Nothing. It has a maximum of 154 subsonic shots (it usually carries less) of unstealthy super-shaheds. Anything important will be surrounded by point and intermediate defenses that can take 20+ shots to overcome.So congrats, you deleted seven missile launchers of the people's kung pow duck liberating force, whatever. Here come the next seven thousand.
>>64291762as if chinks give a shit about other people getting poisoned when they dump cyanide into the reefs of their neighbors
>>64291134It isn't their current strategy. Their current strategy is to see how close to piracy they can approch with their fishing fleet/coast guard, allowing them to leverage force within their means.
>>64291796>Having a military that could fight a war if needed isn't their strategy, their strategy is to pretend to have an implessive military and bully their tiny neighborsI know.
>>64291140shoulda standardized on 757 for ASW, tanker and possible missile truck, as well as Looking Glass, VIP, lite cargo and troop transport and even para.737 was great for its intended, but is now 20lbs of shit in a 5lb sack and a software fix for a hardware problem, due to short leg gear that can't be fixed.757 has long legs for easy mounting of all sorts of weird shit, more balls for short take off and better climb-outs and higher and faster, and has same fuselage diameter as 707 for easy re-use of legacy systems.Its basically a clean sheet re-design of the perfection that was 707, and my SFO airport bros tell me it the Patrician's choice and thats why its Trump's personal jet. Like a 3rd Gen Glock, everything you want and nothing you don't need.Goldielocks of modern engineering much better than 707-727, but still basic durable "heavy metal" than can be modded with confidence and even repaired in the field.US Govt should have a program to do similar to US flagged airliners including cargo to swiftly mode them into combat. Just make a kit you install inside to replace side doors to allow shit to be pushed out, and a kit that gives it an asshole to deploy big long missiles out of rear cargo area.
>>64290832>Can someone explain why China is so poorly equipped for ASuW and ASW?>>64290941>Because China's military is fake and they spend a fraction of what's necessary on anything that isn't the most implessive shiny new thing. Compare the size of their army to their strategic airlift capacity and then compare it to the US.>>64291075>That's actually a good point. Everything that you mentioned that isn't front and center firepower just seems to exist at the barI cover that a bit here.VVVVVVVV>>64292223>US Govt should have a program to do similar to US flagged airliners including cargo to swiftly mode them into combat. Just make a kit you install inside to replace side doors to allow shit to be pushed out, and a kit that gives it an asshole to deploy big long missiles out of rear cargo area.But IMO the real answer is China will have plans in place to use their vast civilian transport, production and logistics to pivot to military support.PLA is major owner of factories and every other biz, and IIRC many PLA generals "privately own" lots of big biz, and I'm guessing that leans heavy on already Para-military operations like trucking.Red Chinese airlines have well over 1000 Airbus and Boeing planes. Could those be "bricked" with a satellite transmission? Have Chi-Coms made swap in kits that will run the hardware on trusted systems? WTF knows, but China makes some airliners so seems possible.But IMO big pic answer is China is winning so hard now that last thing they want is any conflict upsetting apple cart, so they put out some flashy combat equip to goad USA into ruining USA's economy with military spending.
>>64290832You have to realize China's military is built for different things than the US military, so of course it won't be a 1:1 equivalency. China's military is design to defend China, and maybe do some very local regional shit. Their main purpose is to simply stop America from attacking China outside of taking Taiwan eventually. To this end they have been seeding the South China sea with as many sensors as they can build to detect American submarines or surface vessels, providing location information for them to attack with missiles/planes. They don't care about going to fight fleet battles in the middle of the ocean, their goal is regional power as they think they can essentially just make themselves too difficult to attack in any meaningful way in the immediate future while making it too expensive for America to intervene in a serious way. Even if China lost 4:1 ships in a battle with America it would easily be worth the cost to them because America simply doesn't have any real shipbuilding capacity at scale. America's ships are undoubtably the best in the world, but if they get destroyed China can build more and America can't. Both sides know this, so China's goal is to just make America have to stay too far away from them due to the missile threat to let them do whatever they want regionally
>>64292314>You have to realize China's military is built for different things than the US military, so of course it won't be a 1:1 equivalency. China's military is design to defend China, and maybe do some very local regional shit.Main thrust of PLA is sending sheep dipped troops across the world as workers.When I was doing construction around 'Frisco Gay Area there were whole companies of entirely fresh off boat Chi-Coms. If you asked WTF they did in China they say stuff like "business student! :)" but you find out they are also ex-military and I'm pretty sure company was run on military ranking. They seemed thunderstuck that in an American company "WTF is in charge" could be changed on the spot by low ranking guys in the field.Similar to the Israeli model of infiltration via sheep dipped ex-military.
As usual, Japan makes something beautiful.
>>64292299>But IMO big pic answer is China is winning so hard now that last thing they want is any conflict upsetting apple cart, so they put out some flashy combat equip to goad USA into ruining USA's economy with military spending.Sure it is.
>>64292405>>64292410Those gold rimmed nacelles are gorgeous.
>>64290832Because airdrop torpedoes are really hard to do well.Ditto sonobouys, whether DIFAR or LOFAR or some hybrid.t. worked on airdropped Torpedo MK50 and some sonobouy transducers
>>64290832Isn't the basin between China and Taiwan abnormally shallow? Considering an invasion of Taiwan is their primary concern they probably don't expect serious sub operations.
>>64292223>757 You are my brother, though I may not know thy name
>>64292629They'll get some sub action when it triggers an American intervention.
>>64292446reminds me of the gold trim on some buddhist altars in the home
>>64292692its too shallow for much of that
>>64290832>Potemkin Country of cargo cultists copying AI's homework with chips they can't manufacture themselves.
>>64292740>a bilderberg pedo glazes authoritarian power.
>>64292740Where does this whole chips idea come from when China holds barely 8% in 14nm< process, with the US and Korea having 15% each. Rest is Taiwan. The numbers for China are even more hilariously lopsided for the current 4nm< process, less than a percent is held there.
>>64291194To prevent your main adversary from using their submarine to interdict the main shipping lanes used to bring in food for your population, so that they don't have to subsist on a diet of rice and pork and nothing else during WW3.
>>64292905Conversely, if you accept that you are incapable of contesting the USN on the open seas, it's not worth spending money on ASuW planes and systems that will simply be swatted out of the air by F-35s nor on subs that would be incapable of reaching the important carriers and would likely be quickly destroyed before they can even harass the USN's logistical tail.
>>64292886But Taiwan is China...?
>>64293052You're right. What he means is that all the production is in Taiwan while there is minuscule amounts in Eastern Taiwan under the rogue government there.
>>64293052kek, of course it is
>>64291096>The US's many global commitments means they get a constant reminder of the importance of and feedback on their logistical systemIt's not commitments, it's desire to intervene anywhere. 48hr global strike.If you're sending troops into North Africa or the Middle East or Eastern or Central Europe do you do it with troops already in Italy+Germany or ship them all the way across the North Atlantic? Ditto for supplying them.
>>64293166Anon? Why do you think they have a need to intervene everywhere? Could it be because the US has made promises to defend people and trade around the world, also known as global commitments?
>>64290832>Turns out they're 10x noisier than Russian subs from the 80snuclear capable ssn's being noisy or not it literally matters not if you cant understand why there you already have failedlets say that you can track themthen what? you gonna assign a nuclear powered sub to trail them 24/7? obviously not so by definition there is literally no problem
>>64293371holy ESL cope
>>64293377thats not a cope you moron look it up on why stealthiness was a must during cold war and why they havent done absolutely NOTHING to evolve it since then
>>64293388You're coping because you bought SSBNs up out of nowhere when it is irrelevant to a war where everyone doesn't die.
>>64293395ok idiot clearly your knowledge on the matter is lacking dangerously the need of ssn's was born BECAUSE of the ssgn's and ssbn's of ussr their primary target up untill 1989 (or 1991 cant remember when the navy shifted ) was purely this remember usa's ohio came into service pretty late into the game and they have absolutely no answer to the oscars 2 so they were activelly hunting them instead of protecting the fleet like they do nowremember ussr had 100 + more subs(in general) than usa at that time
>>64290966It wants to level Palestine, I can see it
>>64293049if you just give up on contesting the US at sea from the get-go, you might as well surrender right away
>>64292740As the great Zen master Abraham Lincoln once said: "Don't trust random quotes read on the internet."
>>64293408Your autism has you hyperfixating on nuclear missiles when it doesn't have a role here
>>64293869>mom i have absolutely no idea about what the dude wrote can i copy paste my previous posts to try and win the argument that i have already lost due to my lack of knowledge around the matter?>yes my child afterall you are not mine
>>64293869ASW nukes are fun.
>>64293494While I don't disagree inherently, China's strategy is pretty clearly to make it so that anything that's within striking distance of the coast is going to have AShMs to constantly be worrying about and they've accepted that there is no way in hell they're breaking the USN blockade on trade ships, especially in the modern era where you can't even try to sneak around because of sats keeping an eye on every cargo ship. I agree that this feels like cope and accepting defeat from the start, but the chinks were never going to be able to contest the USN in any major way, much less on a timetable that wouldn't see Winnie the Pooh dead of old age, so they pretty clearly decided on a token Navy that can go around and bully thirdies if needed with a carrier force while accepting that it'll sit in port and pray the USN has more important things to do if a war starts around Taiwan.
>>64292223But just like the 707, the 757 is no longer in production, so that's not really an option. You can only pick from 737, 767, 777, and 787.
>>64294503>pray the USN has more important things to do if a war starts around TaiwanGenuinely wonder what would be a big enough distraction considering the state of monke
>>64295531Oh, I meant the USN deciding that they've got 9000 missiles and a carrier that can't leave port is target priority number 9001, not that anyone else would distract the USN.
>>64292424"China has taken on more debt than....."China takes on debt to build infra structure and "ghost cities" (most of which are actually usable, much of the disasters were just Apprentice Training builds, teaching peasants how to be part of a crew).USA took on debt for Wars For Israel (which it has now lost and USA is in worst shape in region than before), babysitting Illegal Aliens (biggest military ever and invaders just walk right in?) and last but not least, Student Debt for Afro-Fem-Lesbo degrees.
>>64295205767X (re-engine etc 767) sounds interesting, especially since it was targeted as cargo, not bus w/wings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-xLWiYuAF4I guess there is no big reason an ASW patrol plane can't be a little fatter.and WTF did the fuck up the new tanker 767 with remote only? shouldn't military shit have manual backups, because you can't just take the day off and call Customer Service?
>>64291115>>strategic airlift capacity>For what purpose? What pressing need for strategic airlift does China have? >Which major land wars on other continents are they planning to wage?So chinas strategy is to just hope a large land war never happens?
>>64297299Surely those investments will start paying off soon and their debt will stop dropping, right?
>>64291194Anon you know the allies had a lot of submarines too right?
>>64297381And the USN actually succeeded at what the Germans were attempting
>>64297347I think that was a Boeing requirement, because it was "difficult" for them to put in a proper boom operator position. It's been quite a few years, but that's how I remember it; Boeing "assured" USAF that the remote-control operator position would be sufficient in all conditions.
>>64292314>China's military is design to defend China, and maybe do some very local regional shit. Why would they be building aircraft carriers if their don't plan on operating outside of the reach of china
>>64297362>So chinas strategy is to just hope a large land war never happens?Who the fuck are they going to invade that isn't within spitting distance if not on their border in the first place?>>64297431>Why would they be building aircraft carriers if their don't plan on operating outside of the reach of china1. A carrier group is basically the military equivalent of having a Ferrari in the driveway - you COULD track it, but mostly you just want your neighbors to know that you had enough money to buy a Ferrari and make them wonder about what else you might have.2. Bullying poors. I fully expect China's first real big boy foreign expedition (assuming that they ever get confident enough to actually deploy their carriers) to be in support of some SEA or African shithole where they're vaporizing AK-toting thirdies with LGBs and maybe shooting down some ancient MiGs. China can afford it at this point so they think it's worth it.
>>64297378China thinking in 100+yrs. Lot of it was shit like canals to ship water 1000s of miles.They are foresting former deserts, man made islands, etc.look at pic of Shanghai from 1960 to today, then do Detroit. Similar AMOUNTS of debt and spending but diff results.
>>64297399>it was "difficult" for them to put in a proper boom operator positionthe move then would be for USAF to call Airbus while the Boeing queer was in the roomoh, Airbus does same, but I guess theirs ain't all fucked up.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330_MRTT
>>64297362Why does China need strategic airlift for Wars on their own border
>>64290832On November 7, the Chinese Navy’s Y-8Q anti-submarine patrol aircraft arrived in Zhuhai for a static display at the 15th China Airshow, as reported by official Chinese mediaSince its induction in 2015, the Chinese PLANAF (People’s Liberation Army Naval Air Force) has acquired over 50 units.China’s military reports suggest a target deployment of between 100 and 200 Y-8Q units across its fleets.
>>64297591I think this is the most outrageous cope that's been popping up throughout this thread. The chinks goal is global hegemony. That requires global logistics, end of story
>>64297473Someone threatening their international trade routes? Someone who can hit them with stand off munitions? Basically anybody assuming the status quo changes at some point? I mean it kind of sounds like you're arguing that china's plan is just to continue to benefit from american hegemony.
>>64297591Does china want to be a global superpower or not? Also strategic airlift inside your own borders is still important lol
>>64297693I certainly think China wants complete control over the Pacific which is why they're pumping their navy, but I don't know whether they have interest in the same US thing of sending a million men to the Middle East and the airlift that requires
Strategic airlift is for rapid global deploymentIt's useful for the US because they have based all over the globeHow would this help China to build a similar sized airlift fleet, what's the use case where land or naval transport wouldn't be a better idea?
>>64297744Which brings us to the next big cope in the thread, that they have no reason to go beyond their own reach. Which does not include total control of the Pacific, and brings us to the threads original question
>>64297758Saying it more doesn't make it any less of a cope
>>64297768Well if we're going back to the OP question of why no subs or ASW it's simply the lack of investment and remains a weakness in the PLAN, probably been spending all that money on missiles and surface ships
>>64297772If neither of use can come up with a use case then why should it be a priority?
>>64297561Only within their borders huh? Look at Chinese mines in Africa and trawling boats all over the world.
Is this thread just one guy and his chatgpt bot?Glowie ahh thread playing half court tennis
>>64298008>zoomerspeak>calling anything you don't like slopMeds. Meds now, angry zoomer.
>>64290941b-but saar, is not tofu dreg in the shape of real US weapons not implessive? please, trirrion peasants starved to make this fake real
Both sides of the argument in this thread add up to a single fact: China is not a global power and has no immediate intentions of becoming one. They're a regional power in the same manner as Israel, Turkey, Brazil, what's left of Russia, India, etc. They only have the capacity to bully their weaker neighbors to the extent that the US allows it. There will be no American-Chinese war this century, and it there is, it will be a Desert Storm-style police action punishing China for their impudence, not the third World War that wumaos imagine.
>>64299233OP here and the statement is pretty much what I was thinking>They only have the capacity to bully their weaker neighbors to the extent that the US allows it.That's why I mentioned protecting landing ships and used a MPA for OP picrel. While I have learnt from the replies it might be a waste to try and invest in subs, I still don't know why they don't do anything about MPAs.
>>64300051>That's why I mentioned protecting landing shipsWhy would they need to protect their landing ships from subs? I think you missed the important part of that sentence: >to the extent that the US allows it.Either the US allows them to have Taiwan, in which case the subs they have to worry about are literally from WW2, or the US doesn't allow it, in which case China gets a choice between either not invading, or having their military defanged to the point that they become a Best Korean protectorate.
>>64300413I play the devil's advocate to overestimate China's capabilities as to where subs would be pivotal if surface combatants were successfully denied access.
>>64290966>Boeing having trouble with doors.>Doesn't include doors over the gear. Truly staggering levels of genius on display.
>>64300561The P-8 technically has more doors than the 737 because of the bay doors too lol
>>64290832is there actually any other plane besides kawasaki p1 that was made exactly for being asw?
>>64303188even if there were none would come close to it's beauty
