Why didn't they just use the 7.62x51 caliber instead of doing something practically identical?
It's a necked-down 7.62, the novelty is the variant with bi-metallic case to increase pressure.
>>64301465>/k/ bitches nothing new in firearms development >/k/ bitches something new in firearms development Oy vie!
>>64301488It doesn't do anything the 7.62x51 can't do.
>>64301547With 25% more energy per area for the same propellant charge it can replace the 7.62.
>>64301547It does the same thing as 7.62x51 but out of a shorter barrel. The shorter barrel was important because it's a doorkicker carbine, not a DMR.
>>64301465because then they wouldn't be able to justify paying sigger executives $6000 per 5 moa rifle
>>64301547M1158 ADVAP and 6.8 XM1184 have similar AP performance, but XM1184 runs on a shorter barrel and is lighter.
>>64301633Both are glownigger shit, though. .50 BMG is cheaper and penetrates armor better. Tungsten core is for when you know you'll be going to against NIJ 4 armor (M80A1 is plenty for anything less), you're attacking rather than defending (the weight of .50 BMG isn't a problem for holding a stationary position), and the situation can't be resolved with explosives (which are there real answer to body armor).
>>64301465Because Army chose the projectile, and Sig was like "hmm might as well keep the 7.62x51 bolt face and mags".And then they ditched the mags.
>>64301768Everybody knows that a tactical nuke is the only logical answer to fighting your enemies.Nigger.
>>64301465Identical? 7.62 is watered down 30-06 meant to replicate its old loading in machine guns for a shorter cyclic rate and weight reduction of both action and ammo. 6.8 is 270 Winchester magnum. Its a conversation of weight vs velocity. 2700fps vrs 3000+ fps. Thats over the wall when it comes to overcoming the stretch capacity of mammal tissues. You can easily do a search of something like deer shot at 20 yards with the 130g 270 Winchester and then of some standard 147g 7x62. Fury has a higher section density AND a significant amount of extra velocity. Thats going to give better penetration. But again, go look at some pictures where bullet hits meat with hunters. There is a reason people have loved/hated the 270 Winchester for a long time. It absolutely anchors deer. It also makes one hell of a mess.
>>64301465>gee, Bill! Your mom lets you have TWO charging handles?
I'm using a 7.62 caliber. What do I know that even I don't know.
>>64301768Might as well skip the infantry entirely and just have everyone drive tanks retard
>>64301857If all of your projectiles have to be tungsten, that would actually make sense.
>>64301465It's not identical.6.8 is getting magnum class ballistics in a short action form factor. But unlike .270 WSM, it can hold 20rds in a standard Sr25 mag.Even the proposal for the 10.5" barrel that came out recently, the ballistics for it mimic 6.5 creed from a full length barrel and projectile of the same weight, 120gr.
>>643014656.8 SPC and 6 ARC is what they're actually looking for, even though they're clearly too dumb and corrupt to realize it.
>>64302024>the ballistics for it mimic 6.5 creedIf it actually manages to hit anything.
>>64301612Don't forget the mandatory $2000+ suppressor and $1,000,000,000 optic :D
>>64301557This is important. And that’s with the extreme inefficiency of the 13” barrel. If you fired 6.8 and 308 out of equal barrel lengths, 6.8 would mog in sectional energy even harder. But really, the 6.8 wouldn’t hit diminishing returns in velocity gains per inch of barrel until like 20-24”, so that barrel length would be most appropriate. It’s a really gangster cartridge, but only if compared against other short actions and ~3000ft*lb cartridges. An awful replacement for 5.56 however.
>>64301465They should have used the 7.62x51 with a lighter bullet like 110 grains so they could have fast shooting and high velocity effects and better penetration for CQ and closer ranges and just switch mags to 180 grain round for long distances and slower followup shots.
>>64301768There's literally hundreds of thousands of M1158 out there. It's the replacement to M993. XM1184 will be produced in similar numbers since it's meant to be the full-time AP load for the M7 for when XM1186 general purpose won't cut it.>50 BMG is cheaper and penetrates armor betterIronically depends on the armor. .50 BMG amax will be stopped by Level III polyethylene plates, albeit with massive BFD well in excess of NIJ 44mm, that lose to tungsten core 9x19mm outright (DM91).>Tungsten core is for when you know you'll be going to against NIJ 4 armorBoth are in theory going to outperform M993 and can threaten an XSAPI or equivalent plate, which is important since XSAPIs are old hat now and China can in theory make equivalents. It's Silicon Carbide backed by aramid or PE. The SiC is just thicker than usual.>M80A1 is plenty for anything lessGoing off of Buffman's tests we got cheapo RF2 chinese plates beating M80A1 fine (albeit cheat ringed). It's not AP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao8Jm6MAcrs
The sole reason 6.8 exists instead of a bimetallic cased, 75k psi .308 in an action that can contain is because of muh BC muh drop faggotry that was spewed out from the 6.5 sneedmore fudds.I would absolutely love to see someone do exactly that with a .308 and compare to a 6.8x51.>muh sectional muh bc muh drop muh windA rifle that can't do match accuracy can't be an extended range DMR so it's FUCKING IRRELEVANT.A cartridge that needs to be downloaded to improve accuracy is throwing away whatever benefit it was supposed to have so guess what, should have stuck with 7.62This has all been a massive joke and Siggy Wiggy deserves to go out of business.
>>64302279>UHMW stops .50 BMG!>The UHMW (NIJ 4 in this case).50 BMG FMJ absolutely obliterates plates. I shouldn't have said that it penetrates *better*, but it's a fraction of the cost of M1158 and absolutely effective.I think you missed the point of my post. There are better alternatives to tungsten if:>Your opponents are unarmoredThis will be the vast majority of cases>You are allowed to use explosivesJDAM is always the answer (except the times when it isn't)>You're defending a fixed location where you logistics aren't limited by what you can carryNo one is advancing on you when picrel is happening, regardless of whether it technically stops the bullet.
Test
>>64302377>whips out some shit-ass Battle Steel plate..50 BMG FMJ does obliterate most plates, that wasn't my point and I never contended otherwise. I was referring to a rather infamous test involving a 4lb PE plate that openly advertised defeating .50 BMG AMAX, which is a terrible penetrator. My statement was that it depends on the armor and also the ammunition.>but it's a fraction of the cost of M1158 and absolutely effective.And vastly more weight both in the ammunition and the guns required to fire it. Also plates have existed for decades which can handle it. Ceradyne 80571, for example, which saw use in the troubles. This is a boron carbide / fiberglass design and can be massively improved on using modern UHMWPE. See Adept Colossus Heavy.>Your opponents are unarmoredChina has literally millions of armor plates ready to go and they can manufacture millions more, easily, going off of production numbers from major concerns like Linry, Aholdtech, and Militech's parent company. Plates made by Militech are comparable to or superior to US domestic manufacturers such as RMA or Highcom, and are only exceeded by higher-end models by Tencate, LTC, BAE, or Ceradyne. Russia is only unarmored, mostly, because they're dead broke and their domestic armor industry is trash.>JDAM is always the answer (except the times when it isn't)Which is a lot of cases especially if you are engaging the enemy indoors, where you can't bring a .50 cal to bear as easily as a .308 or especially an M7. Hearing loss not service related.>No one is advancing on you when picrel is happeningGive them enough motivation and drugs and anything is possible.
>>64302386It didn't work :(
>>64302395>China has literally millions of armor plates ready to go and they can manufacture millions moreAh yes, the PLA is known for caring greatly about the safety of its individual soldiers. My personal schizo theory at this point is that some sigger salesfag or Chinese saboteur (or both in the same person) convinced the right retard generals in 2015 that the Chinese and Russians were on the verge of turning their soldiers into walking tanks and we absolutely *NEED* what they're selling or else our weapons will be useless in the face of the almighty walking power armor supersoldiers.Fast forward to 2025, Russians are walking around with no plates and the Chinese are more interested in throwing 3rd world military parades to show off all their novelty crap which will never see any use. Our main adversaries are militarily retarded, not undangerous but also not spitting out tens of thousands of Master Chiefs at us.
>>64302395>China has literally millions of armor plates ready to goChina has literally millions of fabric-wrapped phone books, they're shipping all the real plates to the US so they can sell them twice.>Which is a lot of cases especially if you are engaging the enemy indoors,As we've seen in Israel, the best way to fight an enemy indoors is not to. Demolish the building or toss a grenade through every door.>Give them enough motivation and drugs and anything is possible.No amount of drugs will save you from a second hit.
>>64302430>>64302467https://www.bodyarmornews.com/chinese-army-body-armor/You people live in delulu land if you think China can assemble smartphones but can't figure out how to put a polyethylene sheet and a bunch of ceramic tiles together with adhesive and wrap it in nylon. Armor isn't rocket science. Militech's shit objectively performs and it does so better than Highcom or RMA. >RussiansGDP smaller than texas and an economy running on one woman cooking books and making ends meet. They're broke.>No amount of drugs will save you from a second hit.Wait, so your argument is that we have to double tap people with .50 BMG? If that's the case we got problems chief.
>>64302490No one is claiming the chinks can't make plates. All we're saying is that the chink military is incapable of ensuring that the plates they're receiving are real when it's so much more cost effective to bribe a couple of inspectors than actually deliver as ordered. They can't even make sure their MREs aren't rotten.
>>64302490I just sincerely doubt the PLA is going to go all out for each individual soldier to the point where 5.56 or 7.62 or 6.8 SPC or 6 ARC or Sneedmore or one of the other 20 calibers they already have access to without having to develop a proprietary nonsense gun for can't do the job. The PLA is a chest-beating, parade-throwing army, not a warfighting one. Every other bit of information I've been able to find outside your link is clearly from websites maintained by the Chinese, who are not well known for their honesty. I'm just not buying it.
>>64301526>waiter shits on your empty plate"what is ze problem sir I thought you said you were hungry?"
>>64302504>No one is claiming the chinks can't make plates. All we're saying is that the chink military is incapable of ensuring that the plates they're receiving are real It's called you take a few at random and shoot them in testing lab conditions. I don't mean to sound like an ass but this is 101 stuff. They have labs over there like the West does. Militech, Aholetech, Jinwudun all have test reports. Even Linry.>>64302509This is again not that hard. Alumina tile array, PE backer, throw a 1" cheat ring like they love to use to save weight. Six pounds, Level IV under NIJ, under $35 to make in large batches. If they want to cargo cult the US, which is the world leader in body armor by ten miles, this is how you do it on the cheap. They have the capacity and they're already buying plates like crazy.
>>64302553>It's called you take a few at random and shoot them in testing lab conditions. I don't mean to sound like an ass but this is 101 stuff. They have labs over there like the West does.So why can't they make sure their MREs aren't rotten?
>>64301465What kills me is the barrel length of this thing Nigger, you won't do CQB with this piece of shit, just add few inches to the barrel
>>64302606It's literally made for CQB, anon. They're still using the M110 for anything long ranged because it's actually accurate.
>>64302569Because food goes bad if improperly preserved and plates... don't as long as the adhesive doesn't delaminate (function of quality) and the PE backer isn't kept above 120 F for long periods of time.China has plates. Fortunately, like our plates, they only cover the torso vitals (plus their shit usually has a 1" foam ring cutting down on the protective area). Solution? Shoot them elsewhere. Pelvis, femoral arteries, lower abdomen, shoulder / neck area above the plate. Head / neck. Alternatively, shoot plate until failure. These aren't iron man shields, just annoying things that get in the way of bullets.
>>64302613>uncontrollable in the auto >made for CQBi smell shit you average grunt is not some delta force shooter, they will spray and pray
I'm calling it now. This thing was just pulled from independent testing and will likely be quietly forgotten. It's too embarrassing to outright say anything about, we'll just stop hearing about it.
>>64302673they will double down on it, anon shit saar will go under if the M7 fails, means no kickbacks for generals
>>64302644If they don't have the ability to test random batches of food to make sure their MREs aren't rotten, why would you assume that they have the ability to test random batches of plates to make sure that they haven't been replaced with fakes while the real ones were resold overseas? The former is far more important than the latter.
>>64302686>shit saar will go under if the M7 failsOh no that would suck.
>>64302691I could absolutely see whoever is in charge of plate procurement selling them off and replacing them with fakes because that is literally how everything works in China.
>>64302708Reminds me of that story with baby formula Fuck. Chinks are truly sociopathic bugs, even to their own
>>64302656Its power isn't for range, it's for punching through rifle plates* at close range.*it doesn't penetrate rifle plates without tungsten, but that's okay because no one else wears plates anyway
>>64302304>This has all been a massive joke and Siggy Wiggy deserves to go out of business.Agreed. Sig is to cringe Whites what Glock is to cringe blacks, and both of them are super popular with cops. Really makes you think...
>>64302691>>64302708Just so we're clear, please explain how food handling, preparation, and long term storage is as simple as taking a random plate and shooting it. You can go see youtube right now to see how Militech plates perform. Unlike food, these don't go bad a number of different ways from mere storage.
>>64302761Please explain how opening a random MRE and smelling it is any harder than taking a random plate and shooting it. No one in this thread has claimed even once that plates go bad from storage. We're claiming that suppliers are intentionally selling fake plates to the PLA, the same way that suppliers intentionally sell them rotten food.
>>64302770>We're claiming that suppliers are intentionally selling fake plates to the PLAAnd do you have proof of this?
>>64302779There's proof of rotten PLA MREs, if they don't have the will or ability to deal with that problem, why would they bother checking for fake plates? And if they're not checking for fake plates, what reason would there be for the manufacturers not to scam them?
>>64302784So you have no proof and are just relying on them sucking at food service and thinking that translates 1:1 to plates.They have no reason to make fake plates when Linry is selling Level IV plates for $26 a pop on made-in-china.com. These are garbage by western standards, huge cheat rings, but are still body armor.$26 is how much they are selling to random people for. The PLA can get them for $15 a pop with a big enough bulk purchase. Why fake?It's easier to just sell the real thing. Your logic is conjecture. Food service is a alot more complicated than glue, ceramic, polyethylene, nylon wrap. Boom, done.
>>64301547Liek all current american military rounds 7.62x51 has short stubby bullets with atrociously bad form factor.Imagine losing in ammo design and production to Russians...6.8x51 is first round with bullet designed by engineer not bubba.
>>64302810Not him but the first thing a Chinese officer in charge of distributing body armor would do is figure out how he could skim off the top as much as possible. That's literally their culture, ask any businessman who's had to do business with China. To call them corrupt is failing to recognize how culturally ingrained this behavior is. It's not suspected, it's just expected. Like how for the longest time, France had a certain tax code for bribes to African nations.I have 0 proof, but I do know the Chinese are lying, cheating scumbags just culturally and it is absolutely not out of the realm of possibility for such a thing to occur. I'd argue it's more than likely.
>>64302742Everybody on Ukraine front wear plates. (largest war since WWII BTW)it doesn't matter they are still killed by good ol AK.
>>64302810not him but>So you have no proof and are just relying on them sucking at literally everything and thinking that translates 1:1 to plates.ftfy
>>64302818>6.8x51 is first round with bullet designed by engineer not bubba.And it sucks cock imagine that lol
>>64302810>Why fake?Because you can make a fake plate for $0.23 instead of $12 and increase your profit by 5x.>Food service is a alot more complicatedIt's also a lot more important, and by allowing that situation to happen, the PLA has signaled that they don't actually give a fuck about anything. Who the fuck even cares about plates if your soldiers don't have edible food? Why worry about being incapacitated by a bullet when your soldiers are being incapacitated before they even make contact?
>>64301488>the novelty is the variant with bi-metallic case to increase pressure.The bi-metallic case is only bi-metallic to get around SST's patents. Unlike the sigshit which can't be loaded safely to 80kPSI, NAS3 cases can be loaded to 90kPSI, but don't even need to go that high because even at the 77kPSI Sig achieves it will get higher velocity through increased case volume due to the thinner walls.By the way, if anyone wants more proof that senior pentagon brass are corrupt, Sig's inferior copy came AFTER SST>>64302047>6.8 SPC and 6 ARC is what they're actually looking forNah, 6MAX, get SST on a NAS3 for that ASAP.
>>64302818>screengrab of plain text copy+paste of a pdfFucking hell sig shills are inept retards.The army's next "308" should be 264, the next "223" should be 224 or 243.
>>64302874>the next "223" should be 224The current .223 is .224.
>>64302863Same shit, different century. We could have had .276 Pedersen for all eternity, but nooooo, we had to have bigger boolit.
>>64302047The Army wanted a full-fledged .308 battle rifle since 2017 with the Interim Combat Service Rifle program which they folded every small arms program into. They justified it with a plethora of excuses but none of them matter, they just wanted a real man's rifle to replace the sissy green varmint round.
>>64302883Uhuh...and? 224 should be a candidate bore diameter for it's replacement.The whole point of >64302874 is that 6.8/277 is wider than optimal a bore diameter to be considered a replacement for 308.Actually I'd add 257. 257 or 264, one of those please DoW.
>>64302947>The Army wanted a full-fledged .308 battle rifle since 2017 with the Interim Combat Service RifleSince the early 2010s at least, hence "AR-12" and 264 USA
>>64302954These were closer to the 6mm ARC idea, which makes it even dumber. The eggheads proved you can get ballistics better than .308 from a small frame platform but the Army insisted on making it full-power anyway.
>>64302964But, anon...L E T H A L I T YETHALITY
>>64302818>short stubby bullets with atrociously bad form factorG1 bc model, trouble with G7 bc bullets is that they are long.>not bubba.heh
>>64302964Matching .308's power at long range isn't important when what the Army wants is a cartridge that matches its power at short range.
>>64302989In the beginning the NGSW was about the range, the requirements were changed to "muh armor penetration" after the Afghanistan withdrawal This program is outdated and frankly retarded, even in Stan you could just train more DMs
>>64302996It was never about range or armor, it was about boomer fudds wanting to adopt a new M14. Range and armor were both mere justifications.
>>64303001Yep
>>64302989There's like 50 things the army supposedly wants from 6.8fury, and every time one of those things is attacked or discredited it's immediately claimed that the army in fact never wanted that specific thing, and they actually wanted a laundry list of other things.>it's not for body armor pen, it's for doorkicking>it's not for doorkicking, it's for sniping>it's not for sniping, it's for fire superiority>it's not for fire superiority, it's for spotting your own shot>it's not for spotting shots, it's for penetrating body armorAnd on ad infinitum. I saw someone even suggest it's intended to penetrate vehicles armored only up to 308, like many Chinese/Russian amphibious vehicles.It's a shitty round, made with 2nd-rate patent-dodging technology. It's shit, I don't care how people justify it. The correct way to view a product isn't by comparing it to the one which it replaces, it's by comparing decisions made in it's design to other decisions which could have been made. When you replace your old TV you don't buy the first one with higher specifications.6.8/277 is the wrong bore size, and Sig is the wrong vendor using the wrong technology, and it's becoming more and more obvious that Sig's success at winning contracts isn't due to merit.
>>64302996To be fair ICSR used the AP justification, but none if it matters since no rifle projectile can pierce anything without tungsten tips, so you might as well keep using 5.56.
Logistics > ballistics stop being a stats nerd and load your units with as much ammo by count as they can pack for opfor casualty at the expected average engagement range + 1st.dvYou're never going to see a grunt rifle in .30 cal that can pen armor at 300 meter just drop the idea. It's a stupid idea.
>>64303013Yup, acknowledging the very few merits of .277 Furry is counterproductive. It could be a decent .308 replacement, but that's not the role it was put it, and its not even accurate, and we don't even need a 308 replacement, etc. No one should "sanewash" it because it just adds onto its list of ad hoc justifications, especially since it's actually guilty of the murder of the actually useful technologies explored by the GD and Textron NGSWs.
>>64303029>It could be a decent .308 replacement,The most mental thing is that the Army wants to replace 308 with 338 Norma. Niggers, you already cut like 30% of ammo from your average grunt, now you also want to cut 30% of ammo from a machine gun team? What the fuck is this retardation?
>>64303036This is basically Jim Schatz' idea. If you fill the gulf between 7.62 and 5.56 with a single cartridge using modern ballistics, you can give your soldiers the capability of both while drastically simplifying logistics, freeing up space for a cartridge that fills the gulf between 7.62 and 50 BMG (338 Normag) while remaining man-portable and suitable for vehicles and certain dismounted mission profiles. It's not actually that dumb, you just have to carefully balance weight savings and controllability with capability for the first round, something the NGSW cartridge utterly fails at, especially with the Sig entry (heavier than Textron, more recoil than GD).
>>64303073>If you fill the gulf between 7.62 and 5.56But they went into full rifle cartridge, "between" would look like FN 264
>>64303092Yeah, exactly. We don't know how the LICC performs, but something like 6mm ARC would have been absolutely ideal. Bump up the pressure and give it weight savings with CT or polymer case, and you can literally carry more ammo than 5.56 while having greater range and similar effect on target to 308 from shorter rifles with only slightly more recoil than 5.56x45.Even with polymer cases, .338 Norma would still weigh more than twice as much as .308, but that's a different topic.
>>643031106mm arc or .22 arc? discuss and reply to three classmates
>>64303130Whichever one goes faster than 3000 fps from a 14.5". Terminal ballistics are a meme and a laser beam trajectory is non-negotiable.
>>64303073> you just have to carefully balance weight savingsYou can be sloppy. NAS3 cases are ~67% the weight of equivalent brass cases, and 80kpsi has the effect of shrinking case size.volume for a given energy. 6mm optimum can be achieved today for NO weight penalty over 5.56. In fact it could be a bit lighter. this is a 2,000ft*lbs 6mm cartridge we’re talking about, lighter than 5.56 and with external ballistics superior to 308, and beyond a certain range, more energy than 308 as well.But more than new cartridge design, moving from double stacks to quad stacks also lightens the load, as quad stacks are lighter for their capacity than any other ammunition feeding system (the Surefire MAG5-60 weighed 6.5oz empty)Its not a bad idea. It was before NAS3 and 80kpsi existed, but now it’s not. I just wonder if it’s better to keep around a dual caliber paradigm - one cartridge for 0-300yds, intended to minimize cartridge volume/mass and recoil and maximize combat load, and another for 300+ yards, with much higher sectional energy and finer bullets.Pic sorta rel. 6x45mm SAW - the original 6mm optimum. Its performance can be mogged now with a smaller and lighter case. Bullet looks mediocre as well (that ogive looks tangent).
itt: bunch of bubas >>64303110>>64303153>6mm in 80k psi enjoy your 500 shots barrel life
>>64301465The US military is dumb and corrupt. You don't have to adopt their garbage choices just because of some quid pro quo deal they made. I'll keep using .308 as my primary caliber. Might consider switching when .277 is dirt cheap and comes in bullpup form. Doubt it will ever beat .308 is my lifetime because there's a lot of dead reliable battle rifles from the 80s in .308, tons of flavors of ammo because it's a prolific hunting round, and shit tons of surplus is available. It's God's caliber meanwhile .277 is the Jew devil's.
>>64303250NTA. Anything that gives you a laser-like trajectory will require a shitload of sectional energy, aka a ton of powder behind a small bore. So barrel life is gonna suck anyways. The gun industry should try to figure out how to make stellite-lined barrels without breaking the bank. If that problem can be solved, this opens up a whole new world of cartridges. In the meantime, we can cheat a bit. To maximize the quantity of BC*V^2 (this determines external ballistics) while minimizing sectional energy, we can use extremely long, extremely low drag bullets. Like shooting a 40gr .224 from a 5.56 case at 4,000fps but with the same BC as m855
