>>64310755Define "stopping power"
>>64310755Yes and no. .40 shit and wipe and .45ACP are better than lol9mm, but .38 Super is probably the better of the 3. Rule of thumb is that stopping power =/ how hard it hits. It's more or less how big of a hole/blood loss does it immediately create and how many vitals it hits on the way through.
Not for pistols, no, not unless you are shooting a fleeing suspect across the street or dealing with people wearing body armor, or somehow find yourself a round with near-rifle ballistics (and thus, can only carry 5 or six)..40 vs 9mm vs .45 for common self defense is literally nothing. A non-debate. No difference other than the user's technique. Or is .32 REALLY deadlier than .45 acp?Now, against wildlife, you may once again debate calibers, because you are also debating things like performance through barriers, and much thicker bone/muscle mass than humans are capable of having, and suppressibility. It's better for cops/spec ops to use .40 and .45 than 9mm, and .357 sig than 9mm, simply because they are getting into those gunfights. 9mm is fine for the streets but dodgy for grizzlies.Rifles and shotguns destroy significantly more tissue period and will always kill better period. Pistolfags compare a .357" hole to a .45" hole and say "well one time 50 years ago someone missed by .1". Rifles take a .22"-.3" projectile and use it to make a hole you can comfortably stick a fist through. Shotguns remove limbs.
>>64310755.32 ACP GODS win again
>>64310755The CEO of Buffalo Bore says 45ACP (and super) is better than 10mm and that's good enough for me.
>>64311062It's cheaper than 10mm, more widely available and more firearms (including better ones) are chambered for it. Meaning you're more likely to practice with .45 rather than your boutique Hirtenberger Buscadero Ticondas™ and you'll actually hit what you aim at.
>>64310755that .22 data is interesting
>>64311119It's commonly used so you see a lot of it. The unimpressive performance of 9mm is probably due to all the future doctors and engineers magdumping into each other at point blank while only scoring a few hits.
>>64310755it's real but the exact definition can be very context dependent, and what exactly stops a threat depends on the threat down to the individual person and what condition they're in.The only thing this chart definitively shows is that a higher percent of rifle and shotgun hits don't get shrugged off.We don't have any context for what incidents were included, what was being incapacitated, and what "incapacitated" means (dead, physically incapacitated, hurt enough to stop fighting and run away).
>>64310755Yes. You shoot .22 LR at a zigger and he doesnt drop instantly. Shoot 120mm at him and he wont exist anymore.
>>64310755>>64311119>>64310883No source provided, anon could be typing random numbers in excel
>>64310755Yes it is, posting horrifically skewed data won't change reality
>>64311158I'd assume it just means out of the fight one way or the other
>>64311191>newfag doesn't know the Ellifritz studyLurk 2 more years
>>64311191No, I vaguely remember the source being some retired detective crunching the numbers. However some rounds like 32 only had like 20 shootings versus the hundreds of instances for the other rounds. Also there was other number fuckery going on too like lumping 357 sig and magnum together as well as all the 22s as one round. Basically the chart is retarded
>>64310755What the fuck is going on with .32?
>>64311198>Study>Unpublished, non peer reviewed, white paper from a literal who>Won't even release his data for people to check his math let alone confirm it's legitimacyYea, no, amazing how many people take this shit as fact when it's the same level of "trust me bro" bullshit Marshall & Sannow pulled
>>64311119https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-powerRelatively high rate of people not incapacitated.
>>64310755>It's another "autistic retards can't understand that statistics don't tell the whole story" episode
>>64310755>>stopping powerYes. And it can be defined by group or species. Where a big heavy soft may crumple a dangerous animal on another that is built differently a solid with maximum penetration is the answer for a quicker stop. When it comes to dangerous game cartridges or handguns on humans there is a system to determine what has the best chance to incapacitate quicker. It is velocity, mass and diameter. It could also be referred to as a sectional density and momentum calculation as that is what it really is. Those are the important factors in dangerous game and pistol rounds. When you get into high velocity (nearing and past 3000fps at the muzzle) rifles on game and humans the discussion turns to the energy spent at the terminal end. However even comparing these with the taylor ko method will give a good start into what will be more effective in a quick stop. Its an all things being equal situation as when you start a discussion on specialty bullets things can get murky. The DRT frangable bullets come to mind as they would score low on the taylor ko but did very well on the specified species they were designed for in some tests. The best chance for a quick stop will be to use the bullet with the most mass, of the largest diameter, with the most velocity.
>>64311209Chad round.
>>64311428TWOWORLDWARS
>>64311209.32 was used forever as an assassin tool. Quite literally a walk up and put the barrel to the head or within inches and shoot tool. Long period of time and specific use equals an out of context result in just one of many, many horribly flawed handgun comparison "studies".
>>64311209Of the few recorded instances of it being used they were all contact shots to the face or upper torso. Effectively the few people that used 32 for the """study""" were a combination of very lucky and very stupid to let the threat get so close
>>64311209Only 30 cases of its use vs over 1000 of uses for standard duty rounds. The study makes no difference between military, police, and civilian gun fights. Yes, military uses were included. No difference was studied for JHP or FMJ. The study also makes no difference between physical or psychological stop. Did the attacker give up or were they rendered unable to continue attacking? Big difference if you’re debating the effectiveness of the round. .32 was so uncommon and poorly documented it is unknown if it was .32 ACP, .32 S&W, or some other .32 round.
>>64311209Last sound a lot of WOPs, niggers, and spics heard before getting domed was a .32 revolver to the back of the head by a close associate.
>>64310755This would mean 9mm is the worst performing round.
>>64311875Checks out.>it's the best>because it's the most common>because it's what everyone uses>because it's everywhere>because it's the best>repeat infinitely9mm is pure NPC
Source: Benis :DDD
While the methodology and rigor involved in Ellifritz's study is certainly questionable, the data definitively support that not all handgun calibers are created equal (nobody goes into bear country with a .380)And certainly handguns are an inferior choice to long arms in any situation otherwise there would be no point in equipping militaries with the latter. That said, there is an observable scale of effectiveness, and anyone who disagrees can duel me at 50 paces over it.>you, with a .25 ACP Lorcin>and me with a Model 29 loaded with 300gr hardcast rounds
Here's the thing: These calibers are used in guns that are used in different manners and in different scenarios.Like why .22, .32 and.380 score so damn high?Simple: They are usually used in tiny pocket pistols, easily concealed in a pocket or you your sleeve. They are pretty much always used at extreme close ranges, often point blank. Think a mob hitman walking right to the target and putting a bullet in their skull. Or think like a dude in a bar getting into a heated argument, pulling a pistol and shootin another dude right across the bar table. Practically touching distance. That's why their per-shot incapacitation/lethality is so high. It's really hard to miss vitals on that range.But bigger pistols like 9mm, .40 and .45 are often used a bit further away. Police and thugs prefer to have a bit of distance to their targets. Let's say across the street or on a parking lot or in drive-bys. The distance to target is anywhere from 5-20 meters. At that range, scoring an incapacitating hit on one shot is a lot less likely, as the target silhouette is simply smaller and hitting vitals less likely. So people tend to mag-dump ammo wildly around, lowering per-shot efficiency. And lethality/incapacitating effort start to rise again when we amp up the sheer power of the guns, going into magnum/shotrun/rifle ranges. The distance is often greater, but so are the energies involved. Also, at those ranges, people tend to aim more than just wildly mag-dump rounds somewhere towards the opponent. So don't think these graphs as some kind of computer game where each ammo type has a fixed "this round does X amount of damage". Remember that these ammo use different style guns and are used at different ranges and in different manners. And those "soft factors" tend to account much more than people think. Shot placement is still the king. And that's why pocket pistols pressed right against the target tend to score highly.
>>64310755Yeah, kind of. But within pistol calibers, you're kinda looking at stratified groupings of effectiveness until you hit like hot 10mm Auto and .357 Magnum loads and all of it pales in comparison to shot placement anyways.
>>64310755sure
>>64310755Imbeciles (would be generals and police commanders obviously) are making these charts as they are completely pointless. All firearms calibers are good if you make a clean headshot, why the fuck they even include those in these comparisons.Show me which bullets were good enough with torso (and extremities) hits.
>>64310755Short answer, no. A .45 will do more damage than a .38 but shot placement is still king. A bullet to the heart or brain is always going to be more lethal than a shot to the arm or leg. Because of this, stopping power is impossible to quantify. I tend to look at kinetic energy numbers since they're easier to quantify. It's not perfect since it doesn't account for things like bullet deformation but it's easier to quantify.
>>64310805The brakes on my car have stopping power. Therefore, your rifles should have brakes.
No.
>>64313485Sorta devil's advocate here. A .22 right between the eyes might only just pierce into the brain case without doing much damage, or cause survivable damage to the brain, which is ultimately a pretty squishy and resilient chunk of meat (pic quite rel). Whereas a Ranger or Golden Saber .45 to a limb has a very good chance of severing a major artery and causing a bleed out.
>>64310755>you be the judge
>>64313496Did he died?
>>64314447He had to deal with chest pain for the rest of his life.
>>64314438Bigger boolet = more stronk
>>64313081Well what's even the point of gunsooming if life != vidya and guns don't come with stats like accuracy, reload speed, recoil and of course STOPPINPOWAH that you improve by spending more on upgrades>gunsooming is badCommies get the helicopter
>>64314460Is this the famous execution by cannon?
Why isn't there a good metric for measuring the comparative effectiveness of cartridges that takes into account the velocity, weight, diameter and ogive of a given bullet in a caliber so it can be measured against another?
>>64314482Nah it's a .45 meat target test
>>64314543Show me how in a general comparison ogive data would change the solution enough to matter at all from that of the taylor ko method, mass, diameter and velocity?I don't think it will as long as you using a comparison of bullets of the same construction.
Broadly speaking I assume the same principle as with most weapons throughout history. Displacement (expansion/diameter) wounds but penetration kills. Now there are certainly diminishing returns with smaller faster projectiles just as larger heavier ones can displace greater amounts of tissue and increase probability of hitting something vital that way, but I don't think there's a formula for determining the optimal point of both.>it's 10mm tho
>>64314460Blowing the rajesh
>>64310805The power to stop someone from being alive.It scales pretty well with caliber.
>>64314543We should just go back to shooting animals in the side and seeing how long it takes for them to bleed out. That or being back execution by firing squad but use it as a way to test new bullet designs
>>64314865Just go to Chicago once they officially defund the police and enjoy the unrestricted PVP
>>64314470>Well what's even the point of gunsooming if life != vidya and guns don't come with stats like accuracy, reload speed, recoil and of course STOPPINPOWAH that you improve by spending more on upgradesI always wondered what the mentality was behind these absurd builds.
>>64318147Literally just barbie dolls for men over 30
>"life isn't vidya and guns don't have stats" mfs when kpop assassin waifu enters the chat:
>>64314447One paracetamol and he was like new, but with autismos
>>64310755but what about starting power?
>>64310805>someone is doing something im going to shoot them for>i shoot them>they stopped doing the thing i shot them for doing
>>64314881>Shy-town let themselves become a hellhole to settle caliber argumentsPerhaps I was too mean to them
>>64310805broadly speaking, 1/n where n=number of shots required to kill, permanently injure, or otherwise put an end to a young urban scholar's nigrous nincompoopery
>>64310883>>64311209>>64311428Memes aside .327 FedMag is unironically a sweet little round. I'd carry it in a LCR, no joke.
>>64313491Comps are better
>>64311875>>64312044>One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner.That's not something that the graph directly tells you, but it should be considered. Don't use FMJ, or if you must, use flat noses.https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buckeyefirearms.org%2Falternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
>>64319192How much stopping power is required to dispose with a "Fait Accompli"-level threat?
>>64310755It's real despite continuous efforts to discredit it online. Using data to determine the answer will always be shitty though due to the rounds being used at different popularities and by different demographics and at different situations making everything very confusing>>64310883.380 is technically stronger for compact pistols, but the thing is most people who carry small pistols are the ones who don't actually train and the ones who end up with .32 end up with less recoil and thus can actually make their shots.
>>64319624>>don't use fmjWhy not? When it comes to this conversation a hole .355 or a hole .40 or a hole .50 the best way to increase wound channel volume is depth. A bullet that punches clean through is going to cause fainting much faster than one that stops at 13". There is much to be said for jagged edges and how they increase capillary damage chances but that is really an all things being equal. Sure a flat nose is going to have some benefits bit at the end of the day a .45 acp fmj that is through and through is going to have a bigger wound channel volume than a 124g 9mm that expands to .64 and stops in the chest cavity. >>this study that studyI have yet to see a study aside from the one that actually included the autopsy of human cadavers and survivors of gunshot wounds that isn't horribly flawed and biased.
Shot placement > caliber until it starts going into different platforms like pistol vs rifle but even then, shot placement still matters. Pretty sure this has been discussed to death on /k/
>>64319708Now that's a study I'd like to see, examinations of people that have been shot and lived and try to draw conclusions as to what cartridges failed, why, and where they landed and cross reference that with firearm homicide autopsies. Bodies will tell a lot more than examining the shooting itself
>>64319753>>shot placement Irrelevant in pistols when it comes to home or self defense. 99% of all incidents both civilian and police end with the first person to draw the weapon "winning" as the other party loses interest. Out of the 1% that is left 99% of those end with one to two shots. Literally anywhere. Foot, arm, belly Literally doesn't matter. The person who draws a firearm first and shoots someone anywhere wins. The facts don't sell guns and fill spots in gun classes. The truth is you don't even needs sights. From the realistic 5 feet away you don't have to do anything but point shoot. People have hero complexes and think gunfights have evolved. Gunfights are the same now as they were in the 1800s. He who draws first wins. He who shoots first wins. >>but but muh shot placement The human lungs, heart, and other major organs make up a huge zone in the upper torso. A blind man can hit it.
>>64319813I forget his name but one of them is the doctor who pissed off the 357sig guys. He showed there is literally no difference between 9mm and 357 sig of the same weight in human cadaver damage. Completely indistinguishable.
>>64319830That's fascinating, I would've though 357 sig would've punched deeper and made a bigger cavity. Then again IIRC all 357 sig loads use 9x19 projectiles which seems to be the biggest factor in deciding terminal effect
>>64319830Mr. Doctor needs to get the stick out of his ass. Those rounds are so similar there are loads where the 9mm has more stopping power than the SIG…
>>64310755>>64310805>foot pounds>velocity (permanent wound cavity, hollow point expansion)>barrier penetrationPast a point foot pounds by way of projectile mass is bullshit without using PCC barrel length(s) with barrier penetration of energy retention beyond 50yds. Under certain pistol barrel lengths, the zippy low mass rounds become marginal. B[ear]ier penetration innawoods (or urban jungle) is niche since the advent of reliable short 556 carbines. That said, the highest possible velocity load for foot pounds, hollow point expansion/reliability, permanent wound cavity, and recoil reduction gains in any given caliber is desirable, doubly for not-overpenetrating. If that can be done or approximated in a greater mass projectile/hollow point dumping all its energy without overpenetration, also good. The FBI penetration heuristic is just that-- hostile land whales with Kevlard and performance passing through upper limbs first is vitiated BY SHOT PLACEMENT AND FOLLOW UP.>>64319830>there is literally no difference between 9mm and 357 sigReaching the velocity that instructs significantly more surface area of nervous system to shut down will always be relevant. 1800 fps 9mm loads just narrow the +P vs. 357 'ball' gap. The ceiling's higher with the latter.
>>64319894Extra fps that translate to a greater impact resistance that is countered by a tougher bullet that eats up more energy to expand in turn results in two bullets of two different velocities with the same weight and diameter stopping at the same distance inside the human body at the same expanded size. As the extra speed increased the impact resistance and that encounter does not result in any secondary damage as the energy levels are below the threshold of stretch in human tissues the end result is literally the exact same. A little more wiggle and jiggle but no actual extra damage.>>64320070Whatever you just said try again but in English. 357sig=9mm
>>64320070>>Nervous system shut down.That doesn't happen from energy transfer at levels you find in pistols. In rifles you are into over 1000ft lbs to see results where secondary damage and the nervous system is disrupted. If you literally mean an actual cns shot. Shut the fuck up you can do that with an air rifle.
>>64319753>>64319821>shot placementYeah no shit. Hitting someone is always more effective than missing them.
>>64319830>>64319837>>64319894>>64320070I don't see how that's even possible, the extra 300ish fps should make as much difference as 9mm to .357 mag (kind of the point really). And nobody hunts with 9mm.
>>64319821>99% of all incidents both civilian and police end with the first person to draw the weapon "winning" as the other party loses interest.A toy gun would be just as good (TM) by your statistics. I'd say that you should learn how to apply it; a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Are you saying I have a legit excuse to keep my shorty AR out of the safe and in my bed, with me as the big spoon?
>>64322402In 99% of encounters a toy gun would be just as good as long as its passable as real to the person its pulled on. They aren't my statistics, they are just statistics. There is less than a 1% chance you will ever use a gun in self defense. 99% of that already miniscule number never fire a shot. Pulling first ends it. Out of the miniscule number that have to shoot those who pull and fire first with a hit literally anywhere win. How to apply this knowledge without bias or hubris? You don't need to carry a pistol at all. The odds you will ever need one are so miniscule that the additional of alternative solutions to the problem negates any need. If you do carry being able to draw fast increases your odds of winning to something so close to 100% of the time its would be foolish to focus on anything else first. If you do carry and can draw fast the ability to draw and fire fast hitting literally anywhere on the upper torso reliably will put your chances of winning an engagement into the stratosphere. Today you learned that training to square your stance, draw slow and fire slow and controlled is the fastest way to a bodybag in a pistol engagement. Facts don't care that you hopped on the bens dick express and rode it all the way to stupid town. Undeserved arrogance always smells like retard.
>>64310805damage per shotknockdown status effect %making the enemy skip a turncritical hit %
>>64322418No Neo, I'm saying you never needed one to begin with.
