How does counter tunneling in sieges even work? Wouldnt you tunneling under your walls cause the walls to collapse?
>>64317729>does counter tunneling even workyes
>>64317729No, the defenders are cutting a thin counter-attack tunnel.The attackers tunnel has to become a wide chamber once it gets underneath the walls to either contain a gunpowder charge or to replace the foundations with wooden struts that can then be burnt to cause a collapseWalls regularly have narrow water tunnels etc under them.
>>64317729https://www.youtube.com/@SandRhomanHistoryhe covers a lot of sieges including the tunneling and counter-tunneling that occurredmostly they listened for enemy tunnelers and dug their own and when they broke through they had brutal melee combat in the dark with fists, clubs and knives
>>64317729>How does counter tunneling in sieges even work? Wouldnt you tunneling under your walls cause the walls to collapse?Countermining is usually looking for the fuckers trying to bring your wall down, stopping them, and then repairing the base of your wall by propping it up or filling in holes.
>>64318108>mostly they listened for enemy tunnelers and dug their own and when they broke through they had brutal melee combat in the dark with fists, clubs and knivesSurely they can just gas the tunnels with CO2 or something
>>64318317That would only really be feasible by WW1. And they'd have worse things to gas than CO2.You still have to find the tunnel which wasn't that easy without ground penetrating radar.
>>64318339What if theres rain?
>>64318339>That would only really be feasible by WW1Gassing people with the smoke from burning sulphur has (likely) been a thing since literally ancient times. The sulphur dioxide in it turns into sulfurous acid when it mixes with water, and there's no shortage of moisture in your lungs.
>>64318394You would have to dig the counter tunnel without being caught .
>>64317729Mere tunnels don't cause walls to collapse. Removing the support beams (in ye olden days) or planting a mine does. Oh and in later 18th and 19th century fortifications counter mines (with properly reenforced walls an and vaults) were prebuild as part of the larger defensive system - often stretching out to several hundred meters before the first defensive works above ground.>How does counter tunneling in sieges even work?Three ways:1) You dig a tunnel under the hostile tunnel and plant your own small mine there to blow up the tunnel of your enemy.2) You breach the enemy tunnel with your own tunnel and flood it with water or smoke in order to drive the enemy back.3 ) You breach the enemy tunnel with your own tunnel and just fight them there. >>64318365You either pump it off or use rainwater to flood the enemy tunnel.
Picrel are prepared counter mines. You had several properly built main tunnels, which had openings to the regular ground. From there you could listen to enemy mines and act accordingly.
>>64318317The problem is that counter-tunnelling was a quick and risky business. Once you breach and engage the enemy sappers, you have to kill, raid, then demolish your way out. There might be a few minutes between raid and escape where you could burn pitch with all sorts of volatiles in it and use smoke-stacks or bellows to pump it down, but you'd run the risk of gassing your own tunnels and your tunnel raiders. Given how well paid most sappers and raiders were (unless you were cursed to be born anywhere east of the Balkans), the crews probably wouldn't even let it happen in the first place. You might consider leaving the tunnel open to gas the enemy complex, but if you start gassing them, they'll start making strongly positive pressure tunnels which turn every raided tunnel into a denied death pit which would eventually collapse and sabotage all the efforts of both sides. That, or everyone will start blowing their own tunnels upon contact; which actually works in favour of the attacker eventually, but not before chewing through all the gunpowder production of an entire empire in one siege.
>>64318454>Three waysAre those methods in reverse order for ease of use? From what I can recall from a book on the Ottomans, raiding enemy tunnels was the easiest as you could just dig toward sound and vibration, while counter-sapping was the hardest as you had to navigate an imagined enemy vector in 3D and judge your relative distance to make sure you didn't fall in on them or fail to collapse their tunnel with your mine.
>>64318503>Are those methods in reverse order for ease of use?In the order they came to my mind. But yes, the simplest way was to dig straight towards the enemy tunnel and then fight them there. Of course this was also one of the shittiest ways.
>>64318394>>64318339Funny you mention that, Historia Militium just made a video on the siege of Dura Europos and the first recorded use of Sulphurhttps://youtu.be/JzHxTrKmOPM?
>>64318394Sulphur dioxide isn't carbon dioxide, which was discovered in 1754 but producing it in pure form would be challenging.
Id have to imagine the attackers opening up dozens of tunnels to collapse walls. How the fuck do the defenders counter mine all of them? Wont the attackers hear them coming too? They could just abandon the mine and open up another.
It was difficult to start excavation from a distance that was not visible from the high castle walls.
>How does counter tunneling in sieges even work? you tunnel into their tunnel and then wreck their tunnel supports, collapsing the tunnelor if you're really good you tunnel below them, then collapse your tunnel, which collapses their tunnel>Wouldnt you tunneling under your walls cause the walls to collapse?when digging tunnel you support the ceiling while you go otherwise you die
>>64320919Ok what happens after you win as defender? You now have hundreds of tunnels under your walls
>>64320924you burn the tunnel supports -> tunnel collapses
i'm going to shamelessly plug the captain alatriste series, one of the novels "sun over breda" covers spanish-dutch fighting during the 80 years war and and there large section covering tunnel warfare and how shitty it isthe series is great if you like this time period anywayit was also adapted into an absolutely terrible movie
