Wars are won by mass and and sustained logistics. This includes the rapid amassing of manpower.Who is the fastest at taking a low-IQ, low value male and turning them into a decent fighting node within the shortest amount of training time? And could mandating base line soldiership durihg childhood relieve training chokepoints at a significant rate?
I don't think the west can stomach mass conscription anymore. Ukraine war has really put the screws to the west, if you aren't willing to lose tens if not hundreds of thousands of men, don't bother at all.
>OP replying to his own thread>uses the phrase "The West"
How the fuck is THIS the lesson you are taking from the war? The real lesson is that low iq meat waves (see: Russia) are entirely obsolete, and the thing you really need to do is have a good production line for pumping out drones, artillery shells and tanks, then you just hunker down and mow the attacker down.
>>64319024>wars are won by massto a certain degree>and sustained logisticssuremuch more important is making sure that your war is won and fought quickly, boggin down like iran-iraq is or russia-ukraine is a terrible worst-case outcome that should be avoided at all cost, rapid maneuver and maintaining tempo is important.>if you aren't willing to lose tens if not hundreds of thousands of men, don't bother at all.setting aside that this is a really obvious samefag, uh no, that's not how that works, thirdie, you win the war by making the enemy die for their country, not by needlessly bleeding more of your own men than necessary for no reason because you're not competent enough to do anything other than attritional warfare.
>>64319074I'm surprised you didn't mention the jews too
>>64319024>Wars are won by mass>includes the rapid amassing of manpowerBased.
>war breaks out>dumbasses who have no idea what they've doing are getting wiped>"this is evidence that we will need mass conscription"The only country even vaguely trying to set up for mass conscription is China, everyone else is letting the degeneracy flow. Obesity, porn addiction, mental illness, overall character weakness, all of it promoted and left to fester.Why? Because most countries don't need to care, they're all in on the professional-military train. Smaller, better trained forces and remote tech instead of young men that ran laps for two months. China tries those human wave tactics again and all that will happen is 90% accuracy out of an A-10 strafing run. America has 100 ways to kill you without setting foot in your country. We tell people to evacuate so we don't have to bother murdering dumb 25 year olds for no reason
wrong, ukraine v russia has actually taught us that technological superiority, better information gathering, and higher troop quality + better casevac is far superior to meatwaves in terms of efficiency, if a much larger population like russia has to burn it's future for 100 years and further rape it's already horrible population pyramid to be at a stalemate with ukraine, then that style of warfare is obviously retarded and anyone who takes the OP post away as the lesson of the day is also retarded.
>>64319116>everyone else is lettingSounds like a you problem.
>has to burn it's future Conscripted populations are rarely high potential. Pursue low value populations and this is a non-issue that minimizes economic effects.
>>64319132that doesn't seem to be working out for russia so I guess you don't know what the fuck you're talking about
>>64319132>just turn yourself into a shithole to use this inferior tactic that still loses you wars and also still highly damages your economy even if it's a shithole.no thanks.
>>64319132>low value populationsThe low value populations that are actually a drain on society are the terminally unemployed and convicts.And good luck shaping those into a functional fighting force.
>>64319074In ww2 they had a hard time because many of the recruits were literally starving.They still fought.Dont be naive; people will fold when the time comes. Its what they do.
>>64319169Aren't the elderly also usually considered a drain on society? That's another potential pool to draw from if the Russians are any indication. Too bad an old man is basically impossible to mold into an effective fighter.
>>64319169zigs for some reason have convinced themselves that the only troops that have died for russia so far are all completely useless to their economy, which is fucking hilarious.all the people that these nihilistic retards consider "useless" were still key to maintaining russia as a functional country, even if they're not as directly crucial to the economy as the elites that work on oil infrastructure.
You're forgetting that conscription is the only viable solution for smaller countries to fill the ranks.
>>64319044Britain in WW1 made the exact transition you are saying is impossible for modern society. For the previous hundred years they had only kept an army in the tens of thousands, or low hundreds of thousnads. Highly professional and utilising the latest technology, much like many of the european armies today. Their major engagements had been against poorly equipped or insurgent forces mostly in Africa or the middle east. They deployed an astronomically large force to France - for them. Almost a hundred thousand men. On their first day of combat at Mons, they took 1600 casualties, dead and wounded, the worst losses in a single day since Waterloo. Sir John French was said to have gone white at the losses incurred during Mons and the Marne, which would eventually total over 12,000. By the end of the war, they'd have an Army numbering in the millions, well supplied and experienced at the nascent form of combined arms warfare that had developed during the latter years of the war. In the same vein, there was a prevailing opinion the US would refuse to sustain casualties before pearl harbour and more recently saying Russia would back out of Ukraine after the first few hundred, then the first few thousand casualties. They've absorbed hundreds of thousands and show now external signs of stopping any time soon.Societies are more resilient than you'd think and have a lot of momentum to absorbe misery when national fervour is engaged. "The west" has a hell of a lot of fat to burn through.
>>64319093no they aren't. stop being retarded. its pretty much universally ok to hate on israel right now.
>>64319204If the only goal is to put bodies in uniform I suppose.
>>64319224>Have a country with a population of 5 million people>Thinks he can sustain a professional army of 250 000 men.There is simply no money for it.
>>64319196>the elderlySure, technically so are kids, so if you want to go full Volkssturm go ahead.Probably not very effective though.>>64319198>were still key to maintaining russia as a functional countryTo be fair, Russia has been rotting from the inside out since the 90s, so maybe those people actually were useless and Russia was on it's way to total societal collapse either way.
>>64319024This fallacy seems to crop up (mostly among civilians) in every sustained war; despite those same wars proving them wrong, and an array of military types of all ranks and IQ levels warning against it every prior war.In the Russian Revolution officers warned about the dangers of treating trained infantry as expendable because you could get more untrained ones.In WW2 the Americans initially treated infantry as a dumping ground, and rapidly changed opinions after their first combat experiences.In Korea the Americans repeated the same cycle, thinking nukes and carpet bombing made infantry obsolete, but eventually the lesson stuck...Until in Vietnam Macnamara overruled them, tried again with Project 100,000, and found out the hard way it was fucking retarded.Idk why it's such a pernicious myth. My assumption is part leftover musket-era prejudices among elites and part post-hoc everyman fantasies among the rest.
>>64319074lol at some retarded weeb thinking he wouldn't fight. they're going to rape you repeatedly throughout bootcamp and all the way up until you're put on a front and told to storm a trench. only then will you be given a magazine while a MG nest behind your position is trained on you to make sure you march forward. keep on masturbating to anime girls anon
>>64319300>>64319308meds
Eagle scouts and boy scoutsJROTCsPromote general interest in machinery and competitionPlanning to go from zero to 100 when WW3 comes around using nothing but Kick watching teenagers is retarded but you actually think it will work. Made even worse with a stilted and inefficient manufacturing base.Basic survival skills, sports, marksmanship, basic navigation, basic tooling skills can all be applied early on.
>>64319024>Who is the fastest at taking a low-IQ, low value maleConscript armies are literally characterized by universal service unlike """professional""" armies where the majority of new recruits are people who can't find a job literally anywhere else.
>>64319318Yeah, yeah, whatever.
>>64319318Funny things happen in trad orthodox POPCORN eh?
>>64319412What the hell are you talking about?
Yawn, we need more Himars tungsten rain videos so these dumb jeets shut the fuck up
>>64319371fwiw, there does seem to be a bit of light when it comes to the manufacturing side. I just started some welding and machining classes at the local community college and I'm older myself (trying to change careers) but my classes are packed with zoomers straight out of high school. One of the instructors was talking about how dead the whole program was only 2-3 years ago as well, it's gone from as few as 3 students in one welding class to two completely full 20 student classes. I think a lot of that is down to them realizing that, as young white men, skilled trades are one of the few paths left where they've got a future, but it bodes somewhat well for a situation where we need to really ramp up manufacturing.
>>64319204for self-defense? absolutely, for anything else it's a waste of time.
>>64319057"The west" is absolutely the correct discription for some states and institutions aligned with rule of law based societies.
>>64319024>Wars are won by massUnless you're referring to arms when you say this, basically all modern wars refute this. Manpower is only useful in so far as it's a unique platform for arms.
>>64319445It's the knock on effect of people realizing "You gotta go to college and get a degree" hasn't been a valid option for like 10-15 years now.
>>64319234Right and if the war doesn't end quickly you're not going to be able to produce more than you're expending.
>>64319777Conscription works, not every conscript is an arab or a russian.
>>64319024ukraine front stalled because none have air superiority and sead capablities
>>64319864the caveat with effective conscription is that it has to be high intelligence white people.other conscription forces don't work very well as anything other than cannon fodder.
>>64320326Even the sharpest white man isn't much without the training to use his equipment effectively. Conscription is just inherently an inefficient way to use whatever manpower you have. It's just costing you more lives (and thus more economic damage) in the long run.
>>64320354It can be used to dispose of undesirables.
>>64320366Then you're trading even more military effectiveness. Which will cost you land and probably civilian lives. It's just overall a net negative in the modern day.
I have bad news for the AVF-Forever crowd. Academia doesn’t like professional militaries and they aren’t trying to hide it.>who cares what eggheads outside the MIC think?Universities shape elite thought, especially in the US case where it is essential to being accepted as an elite. What are merely opinions about the inherent equity of conscription today will be the law of the land in decade or so. Data and wonkish arguments aren’t going to matter when it comes to righting American injustices vis a vis the AVF.
>>64320461anon, getting in to $80k of debt at 8% doesn't make you a member of the elite, it just makes you a debt slave
>>64319024> Wars are won by mass and and sustained logisti—ACK!!!Sorry thirdie, wars are won by 1 trillion dollar defense budges and overwhelming fire supremacy, not mass humans/cheep drones. Ukraine vs Russia is not a “ near peer” war, in reality there is no such thing as a near peer war because America is the empire form Star Wars and everyone else are just Ewoks.
>>64319210and it will never happen again
>>64320502>Study from 2015>Done during 100% peace time>Comparable to the motivation of people after a Big Event capable of actually causing WW3fucking retard
>>64320506show me a mor recent study then>still lower than ever motivation to die for ZOGseems like you are the retard buddy
>>64320467True, but irrelevant. Knowledge is cheap and plentiful. Any hayseed rube can get a good SAT/LCAT score, so today it takes something more to be worthy to rule over the masses. What that something is is having the tastes and mores befitting the overclass. The elite have their own hip lingo, cool fads, and esoteric philosophies that uplift those of ‘us’ over the stinking masses of ‘them’. It’s not codified in books or lectures or anything else squares could study and try to mimic, just informal, ad hoc, ever changing vibes that mark you as one of the cool kids. College is where you go to hone your modern equivalent of aristocratic bearing that will carry you effortlessly further than the hard work/good grades/etc of the lower orders. “Luxury beliefs” aren’t stupid, they are excellent at their purpose. The keep unworthy from being able to pass themselves off as better than their birth.
>>64319024Finland. High social cohesion and value on individual life. Very motivated, educated, professional citizens. National understanding that total defense could be necessary and that even the terminal meatheads unfit as equipment specialists are more useful with proper kit and dozens of landmines.In fact, it repudiates more of your ill-conceived premises than it validates.
>>64319024somewhat on this note: it strikes me that atheism is an unstated key factor in modern reluctance to serveif many people believe that there's nothing after death, very obviously they will accept as little risk as possiblemuch less risk than people who believe that they have an afterlife to compensate them for dying
>>64320513Those numbers look better than those for the US on December 6th, 1941.
>>64319044>I don't think the west can stomach mass conscription anymorethe draft exists on paper if its ever needed again, they just havent needed it again because the US managed to get the worlds third largest army, in terms of personnel, entirely through volunteersthe US army is also the most mechanized army in the world, meaning less manpower is needed to achieve the same result>Ukraine war has really put the screws to the west,what does this even mean?
>>64320991>: it strikes me that atheism is an unstated key factor in modern reluctance to serveit isnt stated because its dumb>much less risk than people who believe that they have an afterlife to compensate them for dyingeven back in the literal middle ages, crusades were primarily motivated by economic rather than religious factorswhile there is no doubt that some people signed up for the crusades for the free absolution of sins, doubtless many more signed up for a cut of the pillage
>>64321064it's not about absolutionit's about knowing there's a life after deathit's completely rational to be more reluctant to risk one's life for a cause believing that this is the end, there's nothing more>cut of the pillagepay a believer a hundred thousand dollars to risk his life, and he knows that he can go to heaven while providing for his descendants; or pay an atheist a million dollars to risk his life, and he asks "what's in it for me? I die, I get to enjoy nothing"offer this deal to 1 million believers and 1 million atheists and see how many more of which sign upor put this in a way that an atheist might understand: would you accept a hundred thousand dollars cash on the nail right now to die at 40 instead of 70?
>>64321181>it's about knowing there's a life after deaththe fact that they needed an economic incentive to have an army that wasnt just 10 knights looking for an easy pass into the afterlife shows that the afterlife, by itself, is not enough to motivate a large group of peopleat the end of the day, people are rational actors who will exchange tangible goods and services and the people willing to be paid in the afterlife are a rounding error>offer this deal to 1 million believers and 1 million atheists and see how many more of which sign upwhat we see in history is that if you want a hazardous job done, you provide incentivestheir actual views on the afterlife are mostly irrelevant, its just supply and demand
>>64321890>the afterlife, by itselfwho said anything about that?who said anything about "BY ITSELF"?who said anything about unpaid service?reread the post above and tell me? I'd like to know
>>64319132t. Robert McNamara
>>64319024I would rather die then get conscripted. At least you choose your own death rather then being forcefully enslaved, tortured and made to wait for death on frontline. Fortunately I live very close to German border so my plan is to escape as soon as possible if draft is announced.
>>64319132>Conscripted populations are rarely high potentialKys. We have lost innumerable high quality men due to beung cinscripted and dying senselessly as cannon fodder
>>64319210Cool story, except demographically Brttain HAD YOUNG PEOPLE then. The birtbrate has been beyond replacement lvls for decades now. If you conscript the youth, you will 100% doom your nation to inevitable death
>>64322337conscription can lead to less wasteful expenditure of life, since enacting a draft means a really large expenditure of public trustan all-volunteer army can often have their deployment justified, since the public can be told, regardless of how truthful, that they volunteered for this service out of their own free willa conscripted army has a much higher political cost to use, since the public is suddenly a lot more sympathetic to their useeven a de-facto autocracy like russia cant simply deploy their draftees into ukranine, and when they do they prioritize backwater units from occupied areas or the boonues first, and outnumber ukraine 10:1 and win overnightthis would destroy the facade of normalcy that keeps the urban centers complacent
>>64319024>could mandating base line soldiership durihg childhood relieve training chokepoints at a significant rate?lmao the last 2 going on 3 generations of kids get into trouble for playing with anything resembling a gun, let alone problematic games like "cowboys and indians (feather)" let alone "army".
All of this discussion is worthless, modern countries are no longer "states" as we used to consider them in the 20th century but economic zones.Just look at Russia and Ukraine when the war started Ukraine lost over a quarter of its population mostly young men, women and children basically its entire future.Russia did a "partial" mobilization and for getting 300k men to the front lost 2 million high value men who fucked off to wealthier countries to make sure they aren't even in the ballpark for conscription.And consider that Ukraine and Russia are poor backwards low iq shit holes full of what the West would consider nationalist fascists. Now let's take western countries in consideration you have white boomers who aren't worth shit for war and most of the young people are brown first or second generation immigrants who are there for the benefits.In case of conscription all of those browns will dodge the draft and flee the country or just revolt and the few high value white people are just going to emigrate to other peacefully regions because nationalism is no longer a thing and they will also consider that there is no reward for them in the fight.Tldr Societal and economic structure of the states has changed drastically in the last 40+ years so conscription is no longer viable.
>>64322526>modern countries are no longer "states" as we used to consider them in the 20th century but economic zones.the definition of state has remained more or less the same since the enlightenment, which is that the country is recognized by institutions like its government rather than cultural or geographic linesin that sense, we havent had to radically alter our conception of a state in modern times pre and post war britian is still largely recognized by its political machinery rather than the notion of british isles
>>64322709OK you've convinced me. Bring back the No. 5 Uniform and the Lee-Enfield too.
>>64322709the Romans at least got 20 years of service out of their barbarians before they fell; these won't even serve that long
>>64322792>>64322709How original, Vanya. I am deeply demoralised. Fun fact though, thanks to the quirks of population growth there are actually more fighting ageEnglishmen on the planet now than at any point in history, not that they'd be thrown away like the poor fucking Russian infantry in Donbass anyway.
I'm a diabetic Swede and part of the generation that didn't see conscription, but I know Finns and Swedes that have been conscripted. My Finnish gaming buddies all enjoyed their conscription, even the guy bitching about having to serve came out loving it. The Swedish zoomers I worked with were excited for conscription, even the girls. I believe our Nordic high trust societies with good military traditions manage conscription better than the third worlders.
>>64323246wrongbut it's amusing that the vatnik got nukedprobably fallout from the other threadsanyway> there are actually more fighting ageEnglishmen on the planet now than at any point in historythere are more PEOPLE on the planet now than at any point in history; what's the PERCENTAGE?and will they DO anything about it, or are they glorified janissaries for their Islamic overlords, like the filth in UK?
>>64320758>get a good SAT/LCAT score, so today it takes something more to be worthy to rule over the massesi hate to break it to you anon, but this was never required. its the same as it has already been, nepotism is what is required.the rest of your post is equally retarded
>>64319210The real problem today for a situation like that is how much of the population is composed of old middle aged people. Not really a problem of willpower.
>>64319289Its because infantry isn't "cool" and fancy with technology and high prices and shit plus to make them valuable is a long term process which bothers people who prefer short term processes, like politicians. Infantry is a pain in the ass, so they're always looking for a excuse to replace it.
>>64320482What video is that from? Also that AC-130 would never fly in daylight in that situation.
>>64323270No bullshit: In Brazil its the exact same thing, conscripts end up enjoying it real well. They also have to keep rejecting people during conscription time for excess of voluntary recruits. Conscription in Israel also has a good reputation despite the fact that they're stuck in fucking horrible bloodbaths that never end for the last 40 years.
>>64319210The only war Brits today would be willing to fight is against the swarthoid colonists that have invaded Britain.
>>64323752provably they are *not* in fact willing to fight that particular war
>>64321064>while there is no doubt that some people signed up for the crusades for the free absolution of sins, doubtless many more signed up for a cut of the pillagePeople always say this but its just completely wrong. The crusades as a whole were primarily motivated by politics and the vast majority of individual crusaders were primarily motivated by religious reasons. The vast majority of crusaders sold or mortgaged everything they owned to afford the trip and from leftover diaries very few seemed to think they would get anything economic out of it, and by and large they didn't. The only people that ended up better off than before were a handful of nobles who got land in the levant and the Italians who sold them supplies and ships. By the second crusade anyone signing on knew they definitely weren't going to be striking it rich and the by third and fourth even more so.
Israel
>>64319445>can't be outsourced>can't be automated>can't be replaced by unskilled labor>very easy to spot and get rid of lying hacks>only become more valuable and harder to replace the longer you do it>the need for the job will never disappear>despite people shitting on the trades it still offers financial stability and a decent middle class lifeI fix trucks for a living. I'll keep fixing trucks until I retire. I have a nice house in a nice rural area with nice neighbors in a nice community. I get six weeks PTO a year, full benefits, and make as much as a lead engineer or nuke plant tech in my area and I'm not topped out in pay grade. My work worries begin and end with whatever's in my bay at the moment, and I can stop caring about it as soon as I clock out.
>>64325342unless you are backing this up with a truck bomb no one cares
>>64319210>country that had a much higher percentage of young men and offered things worth dying forcompared to>country that has an increasingly aging population and which at best offers most young men nothing, and often just hates them
>>64323732it was when fagner fucked around and found out by the US in syria
>>64325342Okay, then you, your society, your culture and your family dies / gets enslaved because the neighboring group of people got tired of dealing with your shit peacefully and decided to try out the next extension of politics.
>>64325499This. War is often a sort of litmus test on whether the society is worth existing or if it should just go die already.
>>64326602You will care when your sisters and daughters are raped and you are enslaved for hard labour by the foreign conqueror.
>>64319024you are not using conscription to have combat soldiers, you do it to fill the boot jobs on the logisitcs side of things.you need cooks, you need grease monkeys, you need people who can do simple tasks so long as you give them instructionthis is why turdies fail to use conscripts correctly.
>>64321007The US had something to fight for back then.
>>64322535Reread his post. Economic zones.
>>64319116>America has 100 ways to kill you without setting foot in your country.Yet you still get ass raped by rice farmers and goat herders. And now, citizen morale is at all time lows. >>64319070You better be right, because almost no one is willing to die for muttland shithole.
>>64322526>most of the young people are brown first or second generation immigrants who are there for the benefits.So basicall the Irish, Italians, Spanish, Germans, Poles, Czechs, Russians, etc. who made up the American Army in WW1? Cool. >>64323701>>64322339Middle-aged people can fly a suicide drone just fine. American highways are excellent instructors for such work.
>>64326828>nostradamusRuining your army, economy and population pyramid so badly that it’ll take a century to fix is where russia’s currently at, yes.>s-stalemate with n-natoWith ukraine, you’re fighting ukraine with some major economic help and a few extra toys.You’re losing to one country, sorry.>you were declaringNope, only your ilk count your eggs before they hatch, the TWO WEEKS meme exists entirely because of your very real early war delusions.
>>64326877>it’ll take a century to fixNot him but they just need to commit a million russian girls to the State baby farms to regenerate their casualties in 2 to 4 decades
>>64326877>the TWO WEEKS meme exists entirely because of your very real early war delusions.Hate to double reply, but are you like 15 years old? 2 more weeks was a meme for at least a half decade before Russian war started. That meme originated from doomsayers on pol.
>>64326892>a million russian girlsCongratulations you now have 990,000 new HIV-infected citizens.
>>64326935>mexicana mexican zigger, it seems.>NOOO RUINING YOUR WHOLE COUNTRY WILL TAKE 6 MONTHS TO FIX!Whatever makes you feel better.>>64326938>are you 15 years oldI’m 9 years old obviously.>was a memeIt’s been a meme since before the internet existed, retard, in this war specifically, it existed because ziggers made very earnestly deluded predictions of two weeks constantly.
Exactly why I said few days ago that they are itching to have their plane shot down by NATO.
>>64326982Have you ever considered how much hate and discontent one would feel if he had his family taken away from him?And yet nowadays people don't seem to realize that in the current socioeconomic system they were never even given them.
>>64327112I'm itching to see Zlut units raised full of dried up cunt babushkas and half starved yellow goblins from east of the Urals
>>64327112Do they really want a second front that badly?
>>64319024>Wars are won by mass and and sustained logistics.So USA win again ?Given they can just vomit massive amount of ordinance on anybody anywhere on the globe.This while already having a professional army of 2M+ soldiers.And being able to churn up 60K+ new soldiers every six months in peacetime.War time USA would just double the pay of enlisted while lowering recruiting standards. This would do the trick if it really needs to throw bodies at problem instead of money.
>>64326981>would you rather have a cyanide pill or an arsenic pill?Neither
>>64327461He has bet and doubled down on->banks>industry>foreign investment>petro sales>the whole ass countryVladimir Doubledownovich Putin will now bet the next 3 generations of Russians in his plan!
>>64320461Lmao the US military is downsized massively from even 10 years ago and still at one of its largest sizes in history. Has been that way since 1945
>>64325251How long did it take to get creds and a job? Thinking about doing heavy diesel wrenching courses now that I've saved up a milly and have most of my house payments saved up
>>64319024Multiracialism has destroyed the possiblity
>>64319210>“See that little stream — we could walk to it in two minutes. It took the British a month to walk to it — a whole empire walking very slowly, dying in front and pushing forward behind. And another empire walked very slowly backward a few inches a day, leaving the dead like a million bloody rugs. No Europeans will ever do that again in this generation.”>“Why, they’ve only just quit over in Turkey,” said Abe. “And in Morocco —”>“That’s different. This western-front business couldn’t be done again, not for a long time. The young men think they could do it but they couldn’t. They could fight the first Marne again but not this. This took religion and years of plenty and tremendous sureties and the exact relation that existed between the classes. The Russians and Italians weren’t any good on this front. You had to have a whole-souled sentimental equipment going back further than you could remember. You had to remember Christmas, and postcards of the Crown Prince and his fiancée, and little cafés in Valence and beer gardens in Unter den Linden and weddings at the mairie, and going to the Derby, and your grandfather’s whiskers.”
>>64328344But the very next generation did it again, and 10 times worse.
>>64319044>hundreds of thousands of menMight as well gamble nuclear exchange at that point. You'd still loose thousands, but ensure enemy is wiped.
>>64328825smooth brained marshmallow test failing takeNuclear war is a pandoras box that we were lucky to close once because only one country had nukes at the time, we would not be able to close it ever again.
>>64319044>don't bother at allThen you loose and die.
