Besides a production line, what does Germany bring to the table? They have very little relevant aerospace experience.

>>64319719
I hope so. Our option are basically
>pay the french to develop a fighter that doesn't suit our needs and gain no tech ourselves
>do it ourselves (maybe with sweden and spain), with unknown but certainly high costs and time and no guarantee of success
>Buy british, perfectly suited to our needs, flexible numbers, maybe develop a loyal wingman ourselves to maintain basic competence

I'm not informed on the politics of it, but practically the thing just has to work for Germany to be ok with it; they don't have special requirements like carrier compatibility and won't have to pay for them (because Italy, Japan and the UK aren't going to build large carriers for this plane).

>>64319747
>However, they did not rule out Berlin joining GCAP as a buyer and having an input into certain aspects of the aircraft, including the drone platforms that are expected to accompany it.
I think they also offered production licenses.

>>64319747
Second largest aerospace industry in Europe

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>>64319747
Basically fixed the aerodynamic of the Eurofighter

>>64320050
wtf? How was it that broken in the first place?

>>64319747
High Tech shit, AI shit, Stealth shit and other shit.
But you won't get that. Germany will build their own.

>>64319719
Why would they join the GCAP project? It's ugly as fuck.

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>>64319719
Why are European aircraft programs so completely fucked?
Are they stupid?

>>64320279
France.

>>64320273
But what if he does something?

>>64320279
Imagine the US Army made up of +30 branches, all of which have the same weight in procurement decisions.

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>>64320302

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>>64320273
>>64320287
>>64320306
>trying this hard to force the meme
good job, you made a fat old man looks like more western, not sure how this isn't a self-own on your part but alright

>>64320287
>>64320306
>Europoor thread
>Chinkshill comes in spamming about burgers
Rent free.

>>64320306
why do you insist on using a badly photoshopped image of dear leader? it couldnt be that you think his real face is just that of an ugly chink is it?

Is this some germ/frog fag derailing threads where we laugh at his countrymen? Cause I've seen it happen a few times lately

>>64320347
i think it's just a confused bug that strayed too far from it's colony.

Can any eater of frogs honestly explain to me why germany should stay in this? We don't get a say in the design, we don't get to keep the tech, we're basically supposed to pay for the privilege of producing a plane that is less than optimal for us. Well, the brits are offering the same deal without having to pay a penny for development, and the plane is better for our needs and earlier too.

>>64320263
I mean if you want to actually talk specifics and not some buzzwords, MTU contributed 30% to the EJ200 engine... in 1970. Since then they've only done the DECU upgrade for it and worked with a small share on a couple of high bypass civilian engines. Nowhere near the juggernaut of RR combined with Avio and IHI, which they themselves are behind GE or P&W.

I guess the germs are equals with the frogs in AI, but still far behind the bongs.

No idea where the progress lies for RAM and stealth geometry, but I'll assume it's on par or ahead of the chinks.

I can suspend my disbelief that they'll be able to manufacture the combination of all those things, but to do the R&D from ground up? There's just no money for more than one thing at a time. If they can prove themselves to join the GCAP program and provide a good supply chain and manufacturing base then that solves those problems.

>>64320347
could be a frog, one got extremely butthurt when it was first announced how both dassault and the french government were demanding outrageous concessions for the work share.

>>64320382
>We don't get a say in the design, we don't get to keep the tech, we're basically supposed to pay for the privilege of producing a plane that is less than optimal for us.
FCAS is modular, it suits german, french and other european needs, project start with french and german paying all together for the R&D to make the plane and both countries would receive a first batch of the plane for free.
germany decided to stop paying because they also want the new tank to devellop faster, Dassault got mad because they are litteraly doing 99% of the job, KNDS for the tank almost got bankrupt because of germany and Rheinmetal had to buy a shitload of shares to keep it afloat, NEXTER is going ok and wasn't really impacted by it.

whatever the brits will propose to you will be whatever they get from germany with the FCAS research and then they'll make the plane from there but in the end it will be the same since UK also need a plane than is carrier compatible.

>>64320420
Britain has F35-B for its carriers.

>>64320382
French anon here
Honestly in France only politicians (majority of them being boomers or Xers) believe in that bullshit of European cooperation and partnership - especially with Germany - and other similar tales
As for me I am a strong advocate of burning bridges with Germany once and for all, and that means nuking them with half of our arsenal and use the resulting smoking crater to dump our trash (such as the PureTech powered Peugeot and all the restaurants serving the so-called “French Tacos” - all of them being fronts to launder nafri money while serving disgusting junk food)

>>64320420
>UK also need a plane than is carrier compatible
They already have the F-35Bs for that and they, along with the japs and wops, have no intention of making the Tempest carrier capable.

>>64320433
>>64320440
good for them, but yeah, as i've said FCAS was initialy modular so germany got their own variant (reason why airbus was also working on it) but the german gov't is all at fault here for ceasing payment on both FCAS and the next gen tank.

>>64320446
How is modularity supposed to work on a fighter plane? Unless you mean with the CCAs and engine compatibility.
The whole JSF program took long enough and that was a single company doing it.

>>64320449
electronics and engine, a different airframe can be build later down the line for plane using a different purpose.

think of the F-35, the F35 is modular, you can have a standard variant and a VTOL variant, FCAS is essentially the same in that aspect but with different spec for either french or german.

the new tank is also modular, it wasn't at first but NEXTER and Rheinmetail started to have a little arguments about the gun and reload system and suddenly both of them were like "oh wait, we can just make a different turret lol"

>>64320439
Mfw we genocided poles who never harmed us in any way instead of frenchmen who would have had it coming good and proper

>>64320463
Why don't you or whoever came up with that tagline say tailored instead of modularity? Modularity makes it sound like there's gonna be extreme parts commonality or something.

>>64320279
Gcap is literally doing perfectly fine

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>>64320472
>Mfw we genocided poles who never harmed us in any way instead of frenchmen who would have had it coming good and proper
>no pic rel
>mfw

>>64320187
it wasn't broken it just wasn't as good as it could have been. New research on leading edge extensions came out after they already made the plane

>>64320439
>French anon here
Hon hon hon. Jean from the Paris oblast?

>>64320877
>leading edge extensions
>new in the 1980's
Let´s not be ridiculous. What actually happened is that they avoided all those refinements and kept the design as simple as possible to maximize speed and range, but as engines got more powerful and efficient and missiles got even longer ranges, being able to carry more payload is worth the extra parasite drag.

The only thing new is that computer simulation allowed to max out the effect with multiple strakes and extensions

>>64319719
the ghost of Bismarck strikes again, the french are once again isolated geopolitically from the rest of the world. I bet De Gaulle is eating his ectoplasmic heart out

>>64320915
10 bucks says he'll respond in french machine translated from whatever ziggersqueal he's got stuck in his head.

>>64320915
non mais les allemands sont quand même de sale putes qui font un max de propagande profitant du fait que les anglos aiment bien nous emmerder.
Il suffit de voir tout l'histoire du FCAS et du MGCS et le Panther je ne sais quoi pour voir qu'ils ne sont pas si innocents qu'ils souhaitent paraître

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>>64320439
Around noirs never relax.

>>64320915
>Anyone that doesn’t align with my opinions is a russian propagandist larping as a inhabitant of _____ (insert any western country)
>>64320942
Thus why I mentioned the PureTech engines from Peugeot and the «french tacos», although I could have used plenty of other examples of typical french anecdotes, events, brands, celebrities that will only ring a bell to french and be completely unknown/indifferent to foreigners
But since you and the aforementioned anon are retards that are only able to reply with stale buzzwords, that nuance probably flew above your head
And finally : jamais un traducteur ou bien une IA ne sera en mesure de faire illusion à l’écrit comparé à un message rédigé par un vrai français - et j’entends par la un natif de France, la ou les francophones d’autres pays que la France ont une plume assez facile à déceler
>>64321502
C’est bien la tout le malheur de notre pays : entre les suceurs de boches, les atlantistes, les européistes d’un côté; et de l’autre côté les tiers-mondistes (j’inclus dedans toute cette crasse de gauche comme de droite - exemple Asselineau, Rougeyron - qui bandent sur la Russie, la Chine, les Brics etc)…
Tout le monde tend son cul à l’étranger, pour l’étranger mais personne ne se dit que l’on ne peut que compter sur soi-même et que l’on ne doit compter que sur soi
C’est un constat terrible à faire, et à plus forte raison lorsqu’il suffit de passer cinq minutes en ligne (que ce soit ici sur 4chan ou bien n’importe ou ailleurs - Twitter etc…) pour se rendre compte de cette vérité intemporelle : l’humanité entière nous haït et jalouse.
Comme le disait si bien de son temps le bon Docteur Louis-Ferdinand :
>« (…)arménoïdes, araboïdes, italoïdes, polonoïdes etc. tous énormément avides, bercés depuis toujours au rêve, dans leurs bleds infects, de venir jouer ici les chefs, de nous asservir, nous conquérir»

>>64319719
>a production line but no say about the direction of the programme
Perfect.

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>hurr durr le france ruins projects
Yeah France, the only country in Europe that builds nuclear powered ships, has nukes , has a 100% homemade jet thats competitive and has ALWAYS begged the rest of Europe to not depend for defense or trust in foreign powers is the problem here not Germany who would leak everything to the USA to get a pat on the head, boycott arm sales because they remembered weapons kill people or do any other sort of brainbroken kraut shit they always do because they think its a good idea to traumatize their people from a young age by constantly hammering guilt about the holocaust at school
Makes total sense to me
France bad upvotes to the left my fellas

>>64322032
>>64321746
>not depend for defense
>muh strategic autonomy
Except france isn't nearly as independent from the US as you love to brag about.
Without their airlift nor logistic infrastructure, france soldiers would literally start starving after a week of oversea deployment at most.
See libya, mali, central africa
War cannot be won with super weapons alone, otherwise, a few chemical armed v2 and me-262 would've seen the german raising their flags over 10 downing and buckingham palace. French weapon isn't even anything technologically advanced in this day and age, lol.
the only thing either spain and germany arent having is the catobar compatibility, which will restrict both the jet size and performance.
Let's not pretend that french carrier will be suitable for anything other than ashm magnet in any near-peer conflict, shall we ?

>>64322062
Your rant can be summarized in "uh French stinky for preaching strategic autonomy, they wouldnt be able to invade iraq without the USA, notice I''m not mentioning cooperation with other european countries because they dont have militaries because they rely on the USA"
If every euro country pulled their weight as France did we wouldnt need the USA which is a foreign and malicious power that doesnt have Europe's best interest in mind, thats the point, thats literally the entire point that went over your head you orangutan
People who defend Germany are either retarded or USA/Russia paid shills

>>64322105
France wants others to stop relying on the US and instead rely on France, only they get worse French weapons in return.

>>64319747
Germany doesn't build a lot of airframes, but shittons of parts. Germany doesn't have less aircraft industry than france or the UK and no less expertise by any means.
Germany is entirely capable of solo building a fighter if they ACTUALLY want to, but there is no political will.

>>64320439
you're an arrogant and delusioal fuckwad
both your and my forefather would be disgusted

>>64322105
I'd agree with you in spirit but I don't think it's true that france is without blame
Note I'm not claoming germany isn't being retarded, I know it to be wrt defense development and procurement
I'd say it's 60/40 germany/france fault
Bringing in insulting and arrogant dismissals will just prevent any good faith discussion or understanding
t.german

>>64322125
This might be somewhat true but that's still better than relying on the US and they would probably be more open to improving cooperarion and lessening any real or imagined one-sidedness than the US in the future
After all we're right next to each other
t.DE

>>64319747
France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan), where none of the companies involved (BAE, Leonardo or Mitsubishi) have any experience as part of the original JSF design program or assembling F-35s locally

>>64322168
bro, the French fucking hate us. The far right like Le Pen and Rassemblement National are at least open about it, but even the likes of Macron just want us as a piggy bank for their failing state finances. Why would we pay for a shittier French weapon when wd can get a superior American one? If we want cooperation, we should do it with other Europeans like UK, Italy, Norway etc. France just wants to dominate.

>>64320420
Might as well just buy the GCAP if we get no proper technology or workshare from the retarded R&D investment in FCAS. I think you fundamentally misunderstand how this works. You need the money from germany and you better get on your knees and start sucking or give a good reason why anyone should fucking pay for your plane. If you can't come up with anything and want to reduce your partner to a customer; guess what - There's better alternatives.

>>64319747
Planedev us expensive and they don't call her GerMONEY for nothing

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>>64320915
>>64320942
>the french are subhuman and are to blame for everything but if you don't lick the german boot you're a russian VPN
You will never be a real woman.

>>64320187
If you look at the improvements it is about the subsonic performance of the Eurofighter which is indeed nothing special because the Eurofighter was supposed to shot down Su und Mig's in transsonic/supersonic regime.

But the AMK is going to be crucial for the Eurofighter to be used in a swing-role or for EW.

>>64322032
>meanwhile French antics destroyed the European Starlink alternative and the European microchips offensive in the last few years

>>64322165
No, I wont compromise, France has been right about defense and geopolitics since De Gaulle, France was not even fully liberated and we already knew what the USA would do after the war
Your country is too brainbroken by guilt to function, you should had been balkanized or annexed by your neighbors, its too late now but hopefully you can still take the Japanese route of simply not talking about it to vulnerable and impressionable children

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>>64322216
Whats the equivalent of Berlin in Sweden?

>>64322249
Again, where is Germany's space program? surely they can build their own rockets and not just the ugliest cities this side of the english channel right?
If you dont like France taking a lead in these kind of projects then go back in time and stop your people from self flagelating

>>64322194
The French far right hates you because you hate yourself
Stop being the USA's cumrag and things will change

>>64322273
Don't ask for things you don't want
https://ts2.tech/en/germanys-space-boom-inside-europes-next-great-space-power/

I love how openly deep state Dassault with Trappier are. And French internet people are okay with it because it is about the stupid Germans.

>>64322273
>French lead
Ariane is a fine rocket, but there’s no longer a need for frogniggers faggotries anymore

https://spacenews.com/isar-aerospace-prepares-for-second-spectrum-launch/

Also, the Polaris spaceplane full scale prototype is set to fly well before 2030. Will dassault neger fund their Hermes knockoff on their own ? Or go around begging for fund like the true brown horde their country are turning into ?

>>64322277
nah, it's not that complicated, it's just cheap populism
just fuck off, no debt union, no more major defense collaborations
elect those retards and become Greece 2.0, crash the union if you are so keen on it, you'll blame us afterwards anyway

>>64322321
You crashed the union by your response to the refugee crisis mate
Brexit was only possible thanks to Merkel

>>64320347
kys, armatard

>>64320279
imagine if California, Texas and New York can't agree which fighter to buy for the USAF

>>64320463
>build a different airframe
>"modular"
>later down the line
>>64322263
>No, I wont compromise

and here you have it gents, Exhibit A how this whole thread came about, and why nobody wants to buy French

All of the western European Muslim colonies are really funny when they still larp as white first world countries.
You ain't going to be building shit, you are lucky of you don't get a general race war in the next 5-10 years.

>>64319747
A million mid sized companies that are world market leaders in theri respective field, including many in the aerospace sector.
As for specifics:
>radar
>avionics
>engines (Bit of a stretch, they have a few manufactureres, but only MTU is building actual high performance jet engines and they aren't their own design)
>tooling for anything you can think of

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>>64319719
>>64322321
>>64322285

This is a good move to put the pressure on Dassault.

Dassault and France basically want Germany and Spain to…

…fund 66% of the jet fighter
…atrophy their aerospace industry or relegate them to dassault suppliers
…not gain any technological advancements
…buy, fly and maintain a jet fighter that doesn't fit their requirements (carrier/nuke capable)

Trappier says it is about "best athlete", "hastening the process" and not losing Dassault IP but that's all bullshit

> Best Athlete
If SK, Turkey, Sweden can fund and develop a 5th generation aircraft then certainly Germany and Spain can do a 6th. Airbus DS is bigger than Dassault by any metric. Will it be arduous? yes, but far from impossible.

> Hastening the process
That's a diversion. Rafales are scheduled to operate until 2070 and even if we start FCAS now it will operate in the 2040s. The geopolitical landscape will have completely changed by then.

> Dassault IP
That's so valuable that they just technology transferred everything to India so they still buys their planes after the Pakistan blunder.

I think Germany should go alone (or with junior partners). I know Germany is terrible at procuring anything. But hear me out:
There is unlikely to be a 7th gen fighter, at least not manned. If Germany and Spain bow to France or the GCAP now it will be over for their domestic aerospace industry. Doing a 6th gen alone? Pricey but possible. Anything beyond that? Nearly impossible. It is now or never.

>>64320279
Ouais, un peu.

>>64322501
>you are lucky of you don't get a general race war in the next 5-10 years.
You mean, lucky if we do.

>>64322263
Instead of talking abiut the actual details fo the cooperation in 2025 or lack/failure thereof and why that happened you circle back to jingoitic idiocies, historical revisionism and distortions along woth complete fabrocations and generalizations that have nothing to do with what we have in europe politically, economically, culturally or socially - neother now and not even during the timefre you are misrepresenting
All of it of course conpletely irrelevant
I deduce from this behavior that discussion with you is a waste of effort

>>64322529
>first 4 \n segments
I don't think it's entirely true but even if it is - and it might somewhat be - this is understabdable unsofar as it emerges from the political and economic realities and forces working in europe
There's not enoigh trust and who's to say that france wouldnt get shafted in the future if they let go of some things now
That's the logic behind that behavior
It's not feasible to do everything doubly and duplicate production lines but I think making contracts that rule over the private entities by political will instead of the private entities blocking cooperation due to greed and paranoia could be a step forward
Bevause something tells me the corporatism and profiteering motives here is making things far more complex than inter-national politics and we are being mad at the wrong things here

>>64320404
I mean germans engineers did the calculations with pen and paper for the first stealth fighter while the US used the first super computer clusters for their nighthawk and now germans are a leading nations in terms of super computing etc. so they should be able to model something like that.

>>64319719
Once again Nigel will save Pierre from Hans's autism.

>>64322293
>french rocket

not sure how french that is my father was building hydraulic pumps for the first ones in a shed here in germany

>>64319747
Money while reducing cost per aircraft by guaranteeing additional sales. German arms companies are all ready surprisingly well integrated with MOD contracts and build a bunch of niche hightech shit.

>>64319719
i hope so. dassault is a shitty company that blatantly strives for absolute monopoly in the european defense industry. their aggressive stance towards both clients and competitors and their unwillingness to create trust between partnerships is damaging the european exports as a whole and isolating the EU further from further developments. they need a good kick in the balls to remind them that they're not the owners of the world, yet.

>>64319719
Are frogniggers still not begging Germany on their knees to not abandon them after the whole Pakistan Rafale fiasco exposed their fraud?

Hans learned about the PERFIDIOUS FR*GS. They made Typhoon shit a fucking nightmare too.

It cracks me up that Trappier thinks is a great example of then being capable of doing multi-national projects.

None of the Neuron project partners want to do anything with France and Dassault ever again.

>>64322662
>>64322529

True but if France/Dassault wants a cooperation and completely stay independent then they have to go out and just say it.

Make this the basis for the cooperation and not some "le UE must unité" morallistic bullshit and shaft your partner 6 years down the line with sunken cost fallacy.

My guess is that if France had been honest from the start they'd either have to accept massive concessions like 80% of the plane being constructed in Spain & Germany or have no deal at all.

I wish the Anglosphere would just form a defense project together. USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Work together. Fuck Yuros. FUCK Queefbec.

>>64322753
>the Anglosphere
more like the hindusphere lol

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>>64322757

>>64322757

unexpected kek have a (you)

>>64319719
The more countries they add to a project, lesser the chance of a project succeeding.
GCAP will ultimately fail just like most of the other Euro projects.

>>64323360
>The locksneed martin

>>64323360
Burger or frog
call it

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>>64323364
>>The locksneed martin
Say what you want but the F-35 program is active.
>>64323381
cope

> Eurofighter Typhoon (UK, Germany, Italy, Spain)
>Delivered but over budget and years late.
>Suffered from industrial infighting and diverging operational requirements.
>Still considered a successful (if imperfect) program.

> NATO Frigate/Helicopter/Armament programs
>Many joint naval projects (like the NATO frigate programs) failed due to national differences and industrial protectionism.

> A400M Transport Aircraft (Airbus – 7 nations)
>Years behind schedule, with major cost overruns.
>A shitton of political infighting, differing requirements, and technology transfer disputes

> F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (Led by the US, with 8 partner nations)
>Technically delivered, but cost overruns and delays were massive.
>Different variants for different countries caused complexity.
>Some partners threatened to leave, while others were excluded later (e.g., Turkey)

More countries = more complexity, which generally increases the risk of failure.... unless there is a dominant lead nation with clear control (as with the US in the F-35 program).

I give the GCAP less than 35% chance of success. And FCAS around 40%.
9/10 CGI from both tho.

It doesn't help most of these countries are bankrupt.

>>64323404
>Say what you want but the F-35 program is active.
and?
Read your own shit dumbass.

>>64323404
the mutt is sweating profusely at the thought of being sidelined in the only industry they still are on top of.

>>64323457
Buddy, the EU has no money for these advanced mil plane programs. France and UK have serious budgetary problems are will be looking for IMF bailouts. Germany's another basketcase that won't be able to shoulder all the costs alone. Not to mention that they all have extremely unstable ruling systems.

Once budgetary crises begin, these new super-expensive mil plane projects will be the first to go or face cuts that will leave them on life support.

If any of these countries wants a working plane in the next 10 years, their best bet is an F-35.

>>64323484
They're being forced to spend 5% of their GDP for defense, money isn't a problem in current era.

>>64322277
>Stop being the USA's cumrag
>be France's cumrag instead, with even worse industrial workshare
and he's seriously clueless why people hate frogs

>>64323484
German Army is swimming in money because they don't have any expensive pet projects

>>64323507
German Army is nothing *but* expensive pet projects
Europeans still aren't getting at all serious about defence, all they're doing is channelling new defence funds to their MIC buttbuddies
the actual key problem with European defence is massive under-remuneration. until we see a raise in soldier salaries of at least 20% (more like 50%, realistically) they're still pissing about

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>>64319719
>Purchasing anything British.
I mean is everyone here huffing glue?
Why trust jihadi African nations like Britain or France, when you can buy an equally good, if not superior jet or fancy new unmanned fighter from Turkey at this point?

A lot of sources, examples and deep reasoning you got there. Incredible.

>>64319719
Imagine how insufferable the French are that the Germans, extremely dedicated to European integration, decide that a country that just left the EU is a better partner.
No one should develop anything with the French ever. Buying off the shelf is fine, Akeron is a better option than buying kike Spike for example, just no joint development.

>>64323501
The French are not capable of self awareness.

>>64323532
Remember France left the French-German maritime patrol program because Germany bought a small amount of P-8's to fulfill their NATO duties. After realizing that Germany doesn't need to operate the obsolete and barely flightworthy P-3s anymore, they lost all leverage in that program and interest.

France demanded Germany should buy F/A-18 instead of F-35 for the some leverage reasons - something they got away with it because Merkel, the Germany hating fucker, was in charge back then.

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>>64323532
>European integration
also known as: turn smaller nations into rump client states

We all know that Dassault actually only wants a stealthy Rafale to sell it to third world countries.

>>64323484
If you actually bothered to research into what you're talking about, you'd know that the extra EU defense borrowing is structured outside of standard borrowing.

>>64323581
What kind of weird logic is that?

If you add EU budget and money generated by those investments the East got way more than the West.

>>64323581
>Ignores DI flows
>Ignores internal trade balances
Lmao even.

>>64323484
>will be looking for IMF bailouts.
lol

>>64323581
Not pictured: the flow of investment from west to east that create those profits in the first place.

>>64323581
>investing in eastern europe is le bad!
Uh what

>>64323581
you need to be mentally retarded (in other words: Eastern European) to believe this chart proves east does more for west than vice versa

>>64323518
>until we see a raise in soldier salaries of at least 20% (more like 50%, realistically)
That's just bullshit.
Taking the krauts as an example; their E-1 start with 2700€ or ca. $3,160 each month. That's roughly a 36% increase over the what $2,319? an E-1 gets in the US Army.
Salaries aren't the core issue.

>>64323789
The problem with german recruitment is that every young german has access to social security, education benefits, free university and a low unemployment economy (well, had as far as the last one is concerned). They're not pressed to put their ass on the line for a job and a GI bill.

>>64323789
OR-5 pay and market rates are the key metric you want, because 1stly, it is the NCO / sergeant / Unteroffizier rank which is most key in both peace and war; 2ndly, German citizens aren't competing with the US Army for pay, they are competing with the German civilian job market.
the median German gross salary is about €4,200 a month, minimum wage is roughly half that. furthermore, German civilians retire at 67, but there's hardly any use for soldiers of that age, due to the physicality of the job. humans peak in their early 20s and it's downhill from there. this means the average civilian can expect to earn an average pay of €4,200 a month for 45 years. do the math, it's over €2 million.

ideally, to retain valuable experience in the NCO role, you will need to provide long-service bonus raises for career soldiers. furthermore, historically professional soldiers were paid as much as 50% more than civilian market rates, as a hazard bonus. but if we go that far, you will really scream.

then there's the issue of post-service careers. an army career can last from 10 to 20 years. this means soldiers can potentially retire at 30 or 40 years old with no useful civilian future. in the expansionist post-ww2 era, armies promised to provide useful skill training, or for the US GI Bill model, subsidise post-army retraining. not only is this debatably effective, today it's no longer possible due to job instability and stagnant economies. the best practical solution, IMHO, is for the army to "front-load" pay; pay soldiers as if they will retire early, allowing soldiers to build up an attractive nest egg to self-fund their post-army career.

TL;DR European armies can make a very simple offer to soldiers: sign up for the army for 20 years. you earn €2 million total.
do the math.
(deductions may be allowed for food and housing, but they need to be market quality, and minimal. people like making their own purchase decisions, even if the quality is the same or worse.)

>>64322501
You know whats really funny? the USA on a national level is as white as London

>>64322757
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UNpTRXyNc0

>>64320439
>least self-absorbed and insecure frenchcuck

>>64323988
>OR-5 pay and market rates are the key metric
Yeah I didn't check those because salary for anything past E-1 seems to differ wildly in how they get calculated and I didn't feel confident in comparing those desu.
>they are competing with the German civilian job market.
Fair but isn't the American civilian job market pretty good too? I'd expect that the difference for them would be similar compared to the civilian market

>>64322032
>has ALWAYS begged the rest of Europe to not depend for defense or trust in foreign powers is the problem
The difference is that France wants europe to be dependent on France instead of the US. France doesn't want an indipendent europe.

>>64323404
>I give the GCAP less than 35% chance of success. And FCAS around 40%.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>64324740
Don't reply to armatard

>>64322032
>be french
>sabotage European projects to keep them dependent on you
>get salty when other Euros buy from the US instead
Checks out.

>>64324683
>be dependant on a country separated by you by vast oceans and closed borders
>be dependant on a country inside your union thats so close you can cycle to on a weekend no matter where you are in europe and where you can work, own property,etc without restriction
Pick one
The USA can take actions that will anihilate Europe if it profited them, France cannot physically do this without harming itself

>>64324884
France seeks European domination
US seeks global domination

Germany wants to retain its position as the defacto economic leader of Europe and handing out billions to France doesn't fit this plan.

>>64322725
Why? They litterally sold more Rafale a few weeks ago, and are expecting to sell even more in the coming months. The europoor are running a dead-end race, they won't have the money to buy enough of whatever magical "5th/6th" gen project and maintain the fleet for a proper conflit. 4th gen will still be the workhorse, even though they won't have the cash to keep their old airframes flying.
France being a bitch might actually save their airforce on the longrun, since their Rafale will more than likely still be flying over the next 30 years. While the rest of europe will be left with hangar queens they couldn't afford in the first place.

>>64325172
>frog starts coping and calling 20 year old tech magic
classic

>>64324457
The European death trap is led by Germany and the German whore von der Leyen for no valid reason since the EU would collapse very quickly if France left it, all the hatred towards this obligatory and unwanted alliance (refused by referendum in 2005 but still applied) is deserved

>>64322191
>France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan),
what, the UK, italy, and japan by far have more experience with 5th gens than those two by their cooperation in the F35 program

>>64324884
>it's okay for me to forcibly deepthroat you because my dick is in your mouth, that doesn't make it rape

>>64324507
>isn't the American civilian job market pretty good too?
it is in the sense that the opportunities to make bank in the USA are much higher
but the median salary is similar to Germany's
(the other major European economies are poorer)

IINM, Americans get a good GI bill and more VA benefits; to this day getting subsidised education is still a big attraction for their recruits. and the US Army is 60% the size of the German Army, proportionate to its population; this means they can afford to recruit from the poorer income strata
even so, the value of these benefits are eroding as education becomes cheaper, the economy stalls, and workplace experience is given far more priority. the solution to that is simple: armies aren't in the business of forecasting future job requirements and shouldn't attempt to do so. just pay soldiers in cash, don't piss about with fantasies of providing "qualifications" (as some advertise today)

anyway in short, what armies used to offer was highly attractive in its day; today, it's not. armies need to change their remuneration package to suit the times.

why isn't this already being done?
I believe the generals, the state treasurers, and the public are all in denial over these facts:
1) civilian market salaries have grown way past what Army salaries used to be
2) armies need to spend a lot more on salaries to fix this imbalance, if they want to address their recruitment issues
3) if the public demands a higher defence commitment post-2022, we need to start spending like it's post-2022

>>64323522
>warriortard shits himself seething over the UK
You are embarrassing yourself

>>64323581
>building up industry in eastern Europe is bad because it's profitable
Seems like a win win to me, but I guess thridies wouldn't understand.

File: 1704787315804669.png (694 KB, 835x955)

694 KB PNG

I mean, the UK and Japan are cucked enough they won't mind using IBM and thus uncle Sam as their 6th gen cloud backbone, so with Germany advocating for this, it's a marriage that could work.

>>64322204
>If you can't come up with anything and want to reduce your partner to a customer
There is no distinction between those two for Frogs. French idea of cooperation is that someone else pays for their shit and if so called partners gets any benefit from the project, that is either accidental or grave mistake from French side.

Basically there are two situations where anyone should even consider buying French equipment. First one is simple, program is small enough to have no economic, industrial or political importance at all. Secondly, only applies to EU countries, French might sue you in EU court if ignore them on tender.

>>64325027
>handing out billions to France doesn't fit this plan.
Handing out billions for energy and security is already what Germany does for its economic plurality

>>64326446
>French might sue you in EU
On which grounds?

>>64326491
Grounds you can only find in his schizo mind

>>64325494
> The European death trap is led by Germany and the German whore von der Leyen for no valid reason
Daily reminder that France wanted von der Leyen and Germany was the ONLY country against her election

>>64320279
because not a federation

>>64326491
>On which grounds?
EU competition laws. Mostly under TFEU articles 101 and 107. Cartels, anti-competitive practices and state support to domestic companies.

IIRC Airbus sued Poles for not including them on helicopter tender, after they won the repeat tender, followed by Poland cancelling the contract due to Airbus not holding their end of the bargain they sued 'em again. Not frogs, but anyway, H&K sued Finnish and Swedish governments for not being included in assault rifle tender.

>>64326787
>Not frogs, but anyway

>accused the french
>proceed to only give example of germans doing it
lmao

>>64326661
I suppose that the incompetent Germans knew that she was even more incompetent than them, in any case beyond the incompetence there is a real will to harm which is collective in almost all the European parliament, the only thing which justifies their ministerial salaries is to gather every week to make Europe an administrative hell after all

>>64326491
interference, exceeding the European mandate for using laws that are supposed to be used to standardize Chinese washing machines to muzzle the press, high treason or a similar crime for von der leyen who pretends that her plane is attacked by Russians, assassination but hey it's still classified as conspiracy, anyway what's the point of filing a complaint against the EU if it's the EU that decides the sentence? only force will work

>>64319747
>They have very little relevant aerospace experience.
Can somebody explain to me where that myth came from?

>>64326805
Frogs aren't only ones doing it, but they are far more litigious and you completely ignored Polish helicopter fiasco prior to that example. If you want to know what was the issue between Airbus and Poles. Local production. Airbus here is the French part of Airbus helicopters, back then still known as EuroCopter, previous that merger Aerospatiale. There are two major aerospace contractors in Poland, PZL Mielec and PZL Swidnik. Controlling stake in case of PZL Mielec was and is owned by AgustaWestland, now known as Leonardo and in case of PZL Swidnik by LockheedMartin, also known as Sikorsky when it comes to helicopter business. I kinda understand the point that Airbus Helicopters weren't willing to spill out all their trade secrets to their two biggest competitors, but they weren't willing to act in good faith in that contract or do the unthinkable, actually spending money to set up production line and factory in Poland. Their intention was as pure as yellow snow, make everything in France.

>>64326446
>accidental or grave mistake from French side
kek

>>64326889
what's the last combat jet the Germans made without needing help from anyone?

>>64326787
>>64326805
>>64326923
>If you want to know what was the issue between Airbus and Poles. Local production
Nah, it wasn't, the spat between poles and frogs was a purely political matter because the contract stated that the helis were supposed to be build in Lodz in Poland.
The real reason was that a government change happened and the new defense minister scrapped the deal with some asspull justification and that's why Poland lost the court case and got a 20 million dollar fine on top.
You might think that it was the typical "EU bad" gimmick the party is known for, but it's even more prosaic, turns out a good buddy of the new defense minister was a ex-boeing employee, gloated about screwing over airbus and fucked off to the US instantly kek

>>64326989
A classic. This is why you should stay away from the US as much as possible if you can. If you can't, no big deal, the US will gladly sell you what you need, with its conditions you'll accept like a little cuck getting femdomed, but that's better than nothing. For everything else, stay the fuck away.

>>64326889
I wrote it out here
>>64320404

>>64328144
and this is bullshit

>>64323404
>>64324751
i wonder how many 6th gens European nations will buy from the US

>>64328409
Please give me input to say otherwise

>>64325494
thanks to Trump and Putin the EU is more popular than ever
Even some hard rightwing anti immigration and anti EU parties are toning down the anti EU rhetoric