I know a lot of people say that Italy was such a terrible ally for Germany that their incompetence sped up Germany's defeat. So I pose a question, what if Italy remained neutral in WWII? Let's also assume 3 different scenarios>Italy has gone full "get the fuck off my lawn" and will attack anyone that violates their airspace or territorial waters, furthermore they are adamant on not brokering any kind of deal with either side of the conflict>Italy assumes a similar position to Spain and Portuagal, willing to assist both sides simultaneously while officially keeping out of the war. They're totally fine with letting allied ships dock in their harbors while axis planes refuel on their airfields>Italy does not join the axis but still continues to attempt to invade the Balkans and Africa in hopes of restoring RomeRealistically, imo, of the 3 scenarios presented I still think Italy got off the best in our timeline, but I can be convinced otherwise
>>64329187Italy provided extra man power that helped speed things along with France and the Soviet union. They were crucial for a foothold in the Mediterranean. Istg World war twooers will say some dumb shit like the french only know surrender, soviets do human waves, and Thailand is asian Germany or whatever and people just latch onto it without ever doing actual research. Fuck yourselves dumb fucks
>>64329208Yes I hate the various retarded memes that have cropped up about the war too. That's kinda the point of this thread to discuss what happens to Germany without the extra manpower and presence in the Med to keep Russia cut off from another point for more aid to come in. The only way I could see Italy sitting out benefitting Germany is that it would potentially keep Rommel and the Afrika corps in Europe which would buy more men and weapons for the Eastern front. However if Italy is truly neutral or even willing to everyone then Germany now has England practically running the Med and the Black sea. Ultimately not a good trade
>>64329187>Italy has gone full "get the fuck off my lawn" and will attack anyone that violates their airspace or territorial waters, furthermore they are adamant on not brokering any kind of deal with either side of the conflictMassive economic depression as the country cannot sustain industry without imports, nevermind the military>Italy assumes a similar position to Spain and Portuagal, willing to assist both sides simultaneously while officially keeping out of the war. They're totally fine with letting allied ships dock in their harbors while axis planes refuel on their airfieldsMussolini gets acked, aside from that it's smooth sailing for Italy>Italy does not join the axis but still continues to attempt to invade the Balkans and Africa in hopes of restoring RomeThis is basically situation one plus massive waste of materiel.
First major thought is the far east turns into a cakewalk for the Brits without having to worry about the med and north Africa. Germany gets fucked in Norway, the Soviets get lend lease much more easily thanks to additional Brit capacity for convoy escort. Hell, France probably doesn't fall as hard in the first place without having to worry about two fronts. Basically things start looking much more rosy fort the Allies, maybe even Germany is successfully deterred from starting shit in the first place.
>>64329815>Basically things start looking much more rosy fort the Allies, maybe even Germany is successfully deterred from starting shitWere that to be the case I could see a realignment, with Germany starting shit with the USSR instead.
Even after the operational delays caused by the occupation of the Balkans had been removed and Rommel's small corps had been added, it is still questionable whether Moscow could have been captured by autumn 1941 and whether the Soviet regime would have collapsed.Without Italian action, the idea of dominating the Mediterranean would have disappeared from the German General Staff, and the losses and time lost in the Battle of Britain would have been inevitable.
>>64329815>cakewalk for the Brits without having to worry about the med and north Africa.They didn't have to worry about North Africa; the Italians fucked up so badly in Africa that they got the reputation they deserved. Had they done their job well, then the Axis powers wouldn't have needed to invade the Soviets so prematurely. They could have completely dealt with one front before starting a conflict with the other front.>"oh but without them the Axis would have lost the mediterranean quicker."Sure, weak allies were better than no allies, but the Axis powers would have had a real shot at winning if not for the incompetence of Italian officers.
thank you for making shitler lose.
>>64330490Without Italy, Germany had no way of even contesting the med. We're talking allied victory because the axis can't even show up. They'd have been totally holed up in north and central Europe with no way of interrupting Suez trade flows. Britain still had hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks and modern aircraft committed in North Africa and the Lion's share of their surface combatants in the Med. Singapore or maybe even Hong Kong would have gone a lot differently with seasoned troops, proper aircraft and more sea power than just Force Z available.
>>64331283To be fair. Germany could've invaded greece and the balkans themselves in order to get access to the med. That would've been insanely costly and ultimately not worth it because greece's shipbuilding capacity was abysmal and it would've taken at least 2-3 years to prop up a decent industry there.
It's hard for the italians not to stay out of the war, because on one hand fascism was losing popularity after 20 years and was based around military conquest and chest thumping, on the other the allies made themselves quite a thorn in the side during diplomatic meetings like the washington conference or the stresa front. Remaining neutral would've required quite a huge amount of self control, especially when watching hitler annexting european nations left and right without breaking a sweat. Mussolini thought he found the gullible idiot who could've given him free land with just a few symbolic fights while the germans took the brunt. As it turns out, it was the exact opposite. In the end, the real element that brought the italians into the war was france's utterly humiliating surrender. Were not for them folding so hard, italy would've been much more critical about germany. Infact, despite relatively amicable relationships between the two countries before the pact of steel, mussolini was furious about the kristallnacht, after decades of moulding the austrian government into an italian protectorate. Not to mention the close blood ties between savoy and windsor, and the overall connections between the two military aristocracies. Anyone believing the roman empire bullshit is literally huffing fascist propaganda.
>>64329187>Italy was such a terrible ally for Germany that their incompetence sped up Germany's defeat.I never heardnthis. I heard the Nazis were awful.
>>64331372The myth of italians speeding up germany's defeat mostly come from rommel, whom used them as cannon fodder in his hit and run tactics. Which is funny because italian neofascists praise rommel senpai for saying something like "the italian soldier impressed the german soldier", despite the fact that rommel was a known diva and refused to aknowledge any sort of criticism on his part, putting all the blame squarely on the italians whenever the british outsmarted him. Keep in mind that Rommel was writing his own self fellating biography during the war, which gave him a headstart against further publications and coupled with early NATO's willingness to put up with nazi's shit if it meant securing assets against the USSR, that sealed the deal forever and italians would be from then on labeled as cowardly untermenschen groveling at the feet of their noble and fearless german superiors
>>64329187>what if Italy remained neutral in WWII?The Brits and French would invade the fuck outta them, forcing the Germans to cross the Alps and go Hannibal on everybody.
>>64331639>The myth of italians speeding up germany's defeat mostly come fromanglo propagandistic malignation for political purposes, same as all the shit the french get in both world warsgerms, being the useful fools they've been throughout all of their history, ate it up since it gave them an excuse
>>64331283>Without Italy, Germany had no way of even contesting the med. We're talking allied victoryCongratulations, you are ignoring what was said and repeating yourself. Yes, they held the Mediterranean, but their abysmal performance in Africa led to the Axis's loss.>>64331639>The myth of italians speeding up germany's defeatNo, it came from the Italians losing Africa and forcing the Germans to invade the Soviets early because the Axis powers were desperate for oil.
>>64333169>Yes, they held the Mediterranean, but their abysmal performance in Africa led to the Axis's loss.without italians there wouldn't have been an african campaign to begin with>No, it came from the Italians losing Africa and forcing the Germans to invade the Soviets early because the Axis powers were desperate for oil.wasn't it because hitler had to intervene in greece thus delaying the planned invasion right into the mud season? make up your mind faggot.
>>64333208>without italians there wouldn't have been an african campaign to begin with>"If it wasn't for the guys who failed to do their job correctly, the job wouldn't have been attempted at all."Sounds like cope. Of course that's what we should expect from a country whose standing military was defeated by unorganized Partisans.>wasn't it because hitler had to intervene in greece thus delaying the planned invasion right into the mud season? make up your mind faggot.>make up your mind faggot.I never said that at all, and even with (Ctrl + F) I can't find who did. You delusional fuck, Are the people who said that in the room with you now?
>>64333254>>64333208Faggots, you're both wrong. Germany NEEDED to invade the USSR because the Allies bombed the shit out of their petrol plants. They also kept bombing the shit out of their synthetic fuel plants (Fischer-Topsch process), thus leaving Germany in a serious fuel shortage.There were no oil wells in Libya. The Italians weren't able to pierce (drill through) the hard rock to get to the oil. It became successful after the war ended when US drills showed up.>but their abysmal performance in Africa led to the Axis's lossThe Italians kicked the Brits' ass until Daddy USA arrived to save their ass with Operation Torch.>Of course that's what we should expect from a country whose standing military was defeated by unorganized PartisansTell me you don't know anything about history without telling me you don't know anything about history.
>>64333383>Tell me you don't know anything about history without telling me you don't know anything about history.Anon, General Mark W. Clark disobeyed an order to pursue the Germans and instead marched off to Rome to claim credit for defeating Mussolini despite most of it having been the Partisan's efforts. I'm not the one lacking in historical knowledge. You are.
>>64333383>Tell me you don't know anything about history without telling me you don't know anything about history.Bold statement for somebody that doesn't seem to know that the axis were already in full retreat from El Alamein by the time Torch happened
>>64329815>First major thought is the far east turns into a cakewalk for the BritsThis, fags have no idea just how much rape would have happened to the IJN if the Brits could keep their submarine fleet in the Far East.
>>64333383>The Italians kicked the Brits' ass until Daddy USA arrived to save their ass with Operation Torch.Guess what stopped the headlong retreat? I'll give you a hint: it starts with the letter "Afrika Korps".
>>64329187Are 33k germans in Africa + whatever got wasted on the balkans and greece worth 220k Italians in Russia? Idk. Maybe? >>64333665>First major thought is the far east turns into a cakewalk for the Brits without having to worry about the med and north Africa.True. Probably the biggest downside for the Axis>Germany gets fucked in Norway, I don't think anything changes in Norway.>the Soviets get lend lease much more easily thanks to additional Brit capacity for convoy escort.That goes both ways. the krauts don't lose a fuckload of planes supplying Afrika Korps and they have more free U-boats>Hell, France probably doesn't fall as hard in the first place without having to worry about two fronts.Honestly, given how retarded the Italians were, I don't think this changes anything
>>64329187Considering that the Italians did not even want to attempt to join the war till 1942 as they knew they were woefully underprepared there is a timeline out there that they do just that and the question is what side do they join in on?Cause without the Itals to contest the Med that does free up the UK to go fight elsewhere and if Pearl Harbor still happens alongside Barbarossa I strongly suspect things won't be going so well in the first half of 42 for the Axis as it historically did.Mussolini could very well see which way the wind is going and go "Mama Mia, this Hitler is one bad meatball!" and decide he has more to get out of the war by essentially joining the allies and "liberating" occupied territory.
>>64334643Mussolini never liked Hitler and much of the party leadership was seething mad at the alliance with Germany.Opportunism was never an option for Italy because the allies burned bridges with Italy over Ethiopia.It's hard to imagine Mussolini formally joining the allies, but I could see some sort of parallel conflict happening
>>64334643Huh? Italians joined the war in 1940
>>64333441Lmao what?>General Mark W. ClarkOperation Avalanche failed. Operation Shingle (trying to take Rome) failed until he got lucky. Trying to take the German Gustav Line failed.He finally managed to get Operation Grapeshot right after everybody was short of manpower.Faggot.
>>64337246>Italians joined the war in 1940Yes, because the fall of France caused Mussolini to think the war would end very quickly.But every fascist assessment, including communications between Italy and Germany, showed that Mussolini didn't think Italy could be ready for war before 1942, due to blowing their stockpiles in Ethiopia and Spain.
>>64333859Sure thing buddy.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Agreement>Afrika KorpsWhich had 4 Italian infantry divisions and 2 armored divisions.
>>64337268>Operation Shingle (trying to take Rome) failed until he got lucky.Correct, it was the Italian Partisans/rebels who did all the work; that's how weak Italy's military was. You were so desperate to be a contrarian faggot that you went right back to agreeing with my statement in >>64333254. Nice job, you imbecile.
>>64338243>the opposing army failed multiple times>the Italian Partisans/rebels did all the work>therefore the italian army was very weakDoesn't follow. Your statements imply power rankings are italian army > partisans > allies
>>64338429>Your statements imply power rankings are italian army > partisansI guess if you were retarded, you'd think that.
>>64337291I can only imagine what mussolini was thinking>wow that was a gamble, for a second i thought i'd have to juggle with the royal navy! Now, let's just send some complimentary forces in southern france while the germans eat up the UK, and everything you be just f->NEIN!>*hitler breaks molotov ribbentrop pact and USSR joins the war*>what the->TENNO HEIKA BANZAAAAAIII!>*yamamoto attacks pearl harbour, america joins the war*>tfw
>>64329815>First major thought is the far east turns into a cakewalk for the Brits without having to worry about the med and north Africa.Doubtful they would move more troops to the far east. The defense of the home islands were more important and they would still need to defend their empire in case Italy did join the war.>Germany gets fucked in NorwayNorway surrendered on June 10th 1940, the day Italy joined the war on the axis side so that's absolutely retarded.>the Soviets get lend lease much more easily thanks to additional Brit capacity for convoy escortDoubtful. The Mediterranean didn't involve that many convoy escorts>Hell, France probably doesn't fall as hard in the first place without having to worry about two fronts.France was already falling apart by the time Italy joined the war. Dunkirk happened before Italy joined the war.Try better next time.
