Is the M249 SAW a bad gun
No.
Just underpowered, it's why it's being replaced.
>>64329829It is. Heavy as fuck and cannot hit the broad side of a barn
>>64329829It was pretty bad in battlefield 2, so I'd wager yes
>>64329829Zach Hazard thinks so
>>64329836>He thinks the XM5 and XM250 is going to be widely adoptedOHOHOHOHOH AHAHAHAHAHAHA
The US army fucking hates LMGs
>>64329856Why is the US Army so retarded?
>>64329837>heavysissy
>>64329868It doesn't make sense that a 5.56mm LMG weighs more than a PKM.
>>64329876Lift more, beta
>>64329883I lift ya mudda
>>64329887u mad
>>64329876The PKM is deliberately light and simpleThe SAW is deliberately heavier to enable longer sustained fire, modularity, and multiple feed methodsIt does make sense
>>64329899Yeah but it jams every other shot
>>64329837Doesn't matter, the point is supressing the enemy not actually hitting anything
>>64329829Tell me about UCP camo and how it cost a billion dollars
>>64329829You should be more like trombley
>>64329915If randomly fired shots with no hope of hitting anything were effective suppression, Arabs would make good soldiers.
>>64329916>camo>billion dollarswut
yeah it jams every other shot, can't hit the broad side of a barn, and it stepped on my dog!
>>643299445 billion dollars actuallyhttps://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/10/01/say-goodbye-hated-army-ucp-uniform.html
>>64329977it cost 5 billion because they made millions of bits of gear, and it was all used in the endyeah the camo wasn't good, but in reality it made no differencethe actual R&D would have been a tiny fraction of that cost
>>64329836seek mental help
>>64329915this is monumentally retarded. in that case why does it even have sights?
>>64329829Its a shittier version of the minimi with dumb features no one uses that the US army wanted and regreted later>dual feed because we're totally gonna let our grunts give mags to the SAW gunner in an emergency>tripod mount in case we want our 5.56 to become a mounted vehicle or emplacement weapon for some fucking reason>actually give us a heat shield and a fat bitch stock no wait no heat shield and para stock hold up shield with rail no not that one wait what about AR stock>actually what if we made it 7.62 FN Herstal has the patience of saints for putting up with this shit. Anyway, the KAG LAMG is better if you just want a belt fed the size of a rifle for door kicker jump out boy shit.
>>64330096To give the user confidence and focus
>>64329829Yes.It is too heavy for what it does, not very reliable, and not even terribly accurate.Also the concept is flawed. Volume of fire over accurate fire is the less effective concept.the M27IAR with a good optic delivers way less volume of fire, but it's more accurate and thus the suppression effect is superior, especially on experienced enemies who realise inaccurate suppression fire is not that dangerous and does not impede really their movement.
>is this thing which sees use in several countries for decades bad?empirical evidence suggests it works fine
>>64329943>with no hope of hitting anythingYeah but are you really going to take that chance?
>>64330129machine guns need to at least get most of their rounds on target for suppression to workit isnt the loud noises that suppress the enemy, its seeing the first guy to run from cover get ventilated that convinces everyone else to stay putthe physical impact of bullets on or around the cover you are hiding behind is also a significant psychological factor in suppression, you arent going to risk leaving cover if the enemy is reminding you that he could easily hit you if you triedif they could make a sniper-accurate machine gun, they wouldits just hard to get it that accurate while also being beefy enough to survive sustained automatic fire, so they settle for good enough accuracy
>>64329837>cant hit the broad side of a barnMaybe you should be more like Trombley
I contend that the US army has never produced a domestically designed MMG/LMG/SAW that was better than mediocre >M240Good but foreign>M249Mediocre >M60Mediocre >BARMediocre >M1919Mediocre Thank god the M2HB exists as a good HMG at least
>>64329829I carried an f89 for a few years in inf: I liked it a lot. The weight was there but in practice the whole section are working together and it meant I rarely got saddled with too much extra shit to carry. The magazine well is a dumb feature but otherwise it's a good system: I'd have a 100 round belt mag on the gun but be feeding it little 50 round rolls of belt until I needed to use that 100. The 200 rounds mags were kept for special occasions. Having that spare barrel and a thousand rounds left me feeling quite comforted. 5.56 is fine, and weighing so little is a blessing if it means I can have 3 times the ammo of the rest of the team. Compared to the MAG it was light as a feather.I used to be damn good at the strip and assembly, and once you know some of its quirks it's a solid friend. >>64329837Literally not that heavy, nor that innacurate. You can easily score hits at 300m on the bipod.
>>64330162>Mediocreat the time it was produced, it was a revolutionary leap forward in automatic riflesno one else really had any>Mediocrethe M1919 was an excellent design, which is why it saw service through WW2 and beyondthey were outdated, which is a different thing from being mediocre, and is more a testament to the solidity of their design that they still managed to hold their own despite being superseded by newer designs
>>64330192Good job quoting the names
>>64330192The M1919 was not a great infantry weapon outside of static situations due to its poor mobility
>>64330221>outside of static situations due to its poor mobilitythe M1919 was used for both offensive and defensive situations, each company got 2 to cover their platoonsit was no less mobile than other MMGs of the time, which were all tripod mounted
>>64329977
>>64329829Why does the US military have 4 branches
>>64329829No, just most of them are shot out and need replacing. >>64330594Akshually we have 6.
>>64330185>f89Fellow ausfag, do you also miss the f88 or do you like the ef88?
>>64330145>if they could make a sniper-accurate machine gun, they wouldThe M27 is sub-MOA with Mk318.
>>64329837>heavyits literally easy to shoulder fire that thing
>>64329837Skill issue
>>64329829Maybe a bit heavy, the big issue is that most of them are just old and beat to shit, so they like having failures to feed.
>>64330674Even then they mostly only have issues when using blanks or trying to mag feed them.
>>64329837you're actually a weak bitch, we used to take turns seeing how long we could hold an FN Minimi in one hand, arm outstretched
>>64330108>It is too heavyGoddamn Amerifats are sissies.
>>64330609Why do we have 6 branches
>>64330703Because it makes more sense to separately administer air, naval, and ground forces than to kludge everything together, and the Marines make more sense as a separate force attached to the Navy than a detachment from the Army, and we realized space asset management and other space shit needed to be its own branch to prevent duplication of effort, and because it makes more sense to have a separate Coast Guard that can't get snatched up for use as another navy in peacetime.
>>64330703Division of labor is a good thing, anon. The basic concept is why all of this around us exists and works at all.
>30mm cannon Cool>125 roundsLol, lol.
>>64330162its just too bad an HMG isnt as good as you might think it would be, it kind of excels in a traditional GPMG/LMG realm that are significantly less complicated weapon systems to employ and use and is immediately outclassed by autocannons when you start to talk about things like vehicle defeatits still pretty useful as a tank coaxial or as a ship weapon, but really its gone the way of the dodo
>>64330162>>BAR>MediocreIt was never meant to be a light support weapon, it was meant to be an AUTOMATIC RIFLE, issued as a standard weapon in assaults.It's why it was only really good when they had half a squad (or more) issued with them.
>>64329829It does nothing that fundamentally couldn't be done by issuing a long barrel AR-15 with a bipod and a C-Mag, RPK style. Would probably jam less too.
>>64330703because the army airforce was a de-facto independent branch during WW2, and large-scale air operations required the airforce to be able to operate independently to maximize their capabilitiesthe US was late to the party in officially declaring the air force its own branch, the british and the germans both had separated the RAF and luftwaffe before the warthe space force is an attempt to stay ahead of the curve for once, by having the branch exist before true space-capable militaries exist, and to solve issues like the navy and the airforce both arguing about who owns satellites
>>64330703Because fuck you
>>64330786>but really its gone the way of the dodothe M2 and the various 14.5mm MGs are still widespread14.5mm HMG protection is its NATO armor benchmark because of how widespread it isHMGs are still widespread
>>64330786Now tell me how tanks are obsolete zoomzoom
>>64329837>>64329914>>64330145>>64330108Not true at all. Be a better operator and you won't have problems.>>64330185This.
I hated the SAW and thought it was a piece of shit my entire career. Until the one morning I had like 2000 plus rounds layed out all neatly next to my ranger grave when the OPFOR platoon was forming up on the ridgewould have killed like 15 of those motherfuckers, went through all 2000 rounds without any malfunctions. steam was pouring out of every hole in that mfer after
>>64330899>Not true at all. Be a better operator and you won't have problems.>t. never served
>>64330915If this is true that is some crazy work
>>64330699>>It is too heavy>Goddamn Amerifats are sissies.I'm not american.Soldiers always carry the exact same weight.If you make anything lighter in a soldier's kit, you simply increase the ammo they carry.The SAW doesn't do much, it throws a tiny shitty 5.56 with poor accuracy, it's too fat for that. It could be half the weight and do the same job if it was better designed.
>>64329837I’ve never shoulder fired an M249 but I’ve shoulder fired an M60 so I think I might call BS
>>64331036Learn to lift, sissy
>>64331093the amount of weight a soldier can carry isnt the issue, a lighter gun is better than a heavier one, all else equal, even if the person using it is herculessince you are generally going to give a soldier exactly the amount they are able to carry, and any weight savings will be re-invested somewhere else, such as more ammo
>>64329829No, the only flaw it had was the mag adaptor
Former SAW gunner here. It sucked and it jammed all the fucking time. The magazine feed feature is absolute fucking dick, and it has terrible ergonomics for humping. The drums are flimsy as shit, and the zipper pouch barely holds enough to do anything. Being an AG to a 7.62 crew served weapon is objectively better than carrying a Sorry Ass Weapon.
>>64331013I spent more years behind the M249, Mk48 and 240 than you have.
>>64329837Sounds like operator error. If you apply good pressure against the bipod like you're supposed to, the SAW has so little recoil it feels like a laser beam.>>64331013Keep it cleaned and lubed you retard. It's not even that picky about the lube; I've used motor oil off a Humvee's dipstick before.
>>64330623Wouldn't really call it a machine gun tho
>>64329829I think the main complaint is they're all old and shot to shit, same with the berettas. My buddy was a ranger and fucking loved the saw, but his was new.
>>64330899>>64331249>>64331556Sneed
>>64332130Literally every person in the military who I knew was in a combat role I ask them what their opinion of various weapons are (mainly the M9 and M249 ironically) and pretty much it always boils down to if their shit was new they loved it, if it was old they hated it. Almost like the Army/Marines/etc just needs to order new small arms more often
>>64330148WHOPPER JR>WHOPPER JRWHOPPER JR
>>64331640It's an automatic rifle and not a machine gun, but the M249 is primarily used in the automatic rifle role and not the LMG role.
>>64329829It's not good, but it's better than nothing in the role. Same concept as a grenade launcher.
>>64329829The XM250 might be a good replacement but the XM5 is retarded
>>64334536>and not the LMG role.the M249 is a textbook example of an LMG, being belt-fed, intermediate chambered, bipod or shoulder fired, and fully automatic
>>64334862XM250 is a even dumber idea than the M7. What's the purpose of a bullet hose if you can't carry enough ammo to hose someone down?
>>64330108>Volume of fire over accurate fire is the less effective concept.Not in reality, as accurate fire requires accurate information on enemy positions, which is not something you will have in the vast majority of combat situations. Volume of fire is a necessity to compensate for this lack of information by allowing area targets to be covered by automatic fire, ensuring a mathematical likelihood of hits and near-impacts on target. The creation of a cone of fire or a beaten zone ensures anyone in that area is either going to get hit, or be forced into taking cover regardless of if the machine gunner knows their exact location. This can not happen with accurate fire.Snipers and marksmen exist to take these accurate, high-information shots. Gimping the performance of your machine guns because you do not understand this dynamic is foolish.
>>64334872no
>>64329856?
It's not a "bad" gun but in 2025 is an older design. Also requires proper maintenance and parts support by its users (which isn't unattainable or a bad thing, just needs to be paid attention to in order to keep the gun running otherwise problems arise)All the stories about it, are from vets handled the weapon that was passed down to them that had been improperly maintained and beaten to shit which is an organizational, logistics, training not an engineering/design/component issue.
>>64329837>Heavy as fuckNo>heavier than it should beYesBetter options exist.
>>64330162The M1919 was an excellent MMG, especially considering just how early it was designed. The BAR was a bad LMG but a decent Squad automatic weapon, again, especially when you consider it was designed in WWI. But you are forgetting the Lewis gun, the GOAT LMG of WWI.
>>64334374You never know. When I was in training once we drew M60s to use and train with. One guy got one that looked like it was new off of the rack, and I got one that looked like it went through 5 tours in Nam. His was a jam-o-matic and mine ran like a sewing machine.
>>64329868>5.56>24lb Ounces equal pounds, meathead. It’s older now than the Garand was when the SAW was adopted.
>>64329915Hitting the enemy suppresses the enemy, Cyril.
>>64330703Anti trust laws
>>64335605correct the BAR was designed and conceived before the different sub-categories of 'machine guns' existedIt was never meant to be a 'light machine gun' and only had 20-round mags, but yes decent for what it was back in the day
>>64335691>correct the BAR was designed and conceived before the different sub-categories of 'machine guns' existedIt's an automatic rifle. Even says so in the name.https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusil-mitrailleurhttps://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulsprutegev%C3%A4rhttps://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucile_mitragliatoreI don't understand why the English language abandoned the proper use of the term.
>>64335605compared to other LMGs like the bren or the type 99, it isnt even particularly bad outside of prone use and the 20 round magbut the conventional layout meant it was easier to fire from standing position and made it easier to operate by a single person
>>64334872The US uses the M249 in both the LMG and AR roles.
>>64335709>automatic rifle.Correct and so are all select fire rifles. *ALL of* them
>>64335791Because anglos don't respect their own language one bit. Anyone could look at these weapons and see the similarities in them, identifying the need for a term to refer to them with.
>>64335713I'm actually amending my statement that it was a decent Squad Automatic Weapon and changing it to a great one. Your comment about how easy it is for a single person to operate made me remember firing one last year.Even firing standing unsupported it was extremely controllable and easy to keep on target. BAR rules.
>>64335897It only exists because generals in the past didn't understand fire and movement and thought if they gave the troops proper automatic weapons they would waste ammo.
>>64335648>its OLDAnd?
>>64329829M4A1 and M16A4 are KINGS.
>>64335806>anglosNothing to do with that at all whatsoeverpicrel = automatic rifle= *ALL OF* them
>>64330001They could have spent $0 on R&D and simply continued to produce woodland and olive drab.We've come full circle and olive drab (or ranger green, if you want to be pedantic about it) is what everyone wears now anyway.
>>64336147Hello, based department?!
>>64329829So when does Sig Sauer make a new sniper rifle? Whose cock did Sig Sauer suck to get the new rifle, new LMG, and new pistol?
>>64329829>heavy>underpowered>unreliableIt is a mystery
>>64329837What an absolute pussy. To anyone else, ignore this faggot the SAW is definitely money
>>64335908It wasn't economically or industrially possible to give every soldier an automatic weapon in WWI
>>64336357>heavySissy
>>64337797Which would you rather have.Heavy gun + 300 roundsorLight gun + 600 roundsPlease do your best to think really hard, this is important.
>>64337890That's a lot of words to say why you're a limp wrist sissy fag :)
>>64336929They could've at the least tried. Or at least given them a proper machine gun.
>>64337998It really isn't a lot of words.Now, please try to think really hard. I'm sure you can do it!
>>64336929The US could have easily given everyone a BAR
>>64338334Seething sissy
>>64337797>>64329868what is it with people on /k/ to where they feel compelled to make fun of anyone who mentions weight in a negative way?
>>64338370It's cope that weight doesn't actually matter by people butthurt about global adversaries making equivalent weapons at 50-70% the weight.
>>64329829the clapped out ones in service? yeswell maintained saws? no theyre big money
>>64338370Beta
>>64334994Even a "sniper accurate" (let's say sub MOA) automatic rifle or machine gun would have a real-life cone of dispersion greater than the mechanical cone due to recoil and slight movement in the bipod. Purposefully making a gun pattern like shit when bolted to a rest and fed single rounds would only make real-life accuracy an actual impediment to the use.This shit's been studied, 5.56 rounds need to impact within a meter of the enemy to cause enough of a psychological demotivator to make him to to cover and 7.62 gives you a couple more meters but that's it. You don't have accurate information on a point target? Too fucking bad, your suppression effect is now based on real life RNG. If you're not hitting you're not suppressing.And automatic rifles/machine guns do have a very important role - cutting down the fuckers who run from cover to cover. A rifleman has to estimate holdover, lead and pull the trigger before the enemy can get back to cover. A gunner can cut him down.
>>64329829I was an armorer in a POG unit and every fucking time my battalion took these things out on a hike or field op they'd come back having shed a bunch of retaining pins and clips. They're fiddly hunks of pot metal.The M240 however was built like a fucking tank. I loved working on those.
>>64329829It’s an ok gun. There’s room for improvement.
>>64329829Yes. The SAW was always a bad gun. It always weighed way more than it should have and wasn't even accurate for it. The mag feed never worked, either. If it was like 12-13 lbs, then it'd be forgivable.
>>64339650>pot metalFN makes guns out of pot metal?they also manufacture the 240, btw>>64340085>always bad never workedMaybe the ones (You) got.
>>64339468>This shit's been studied, 5.56 rounds need to impact within a meter of the enemy to cause enough of a psychological demotivator to make him to to cover and 7.62 gives you a couple more meters but that's it. You don't have accurate information on a point target? Too fucking bad, your suppression effect is now based on real life RNG. If you're not hitting you're not suppressing.And that's exactly why machine guns require volume of fire, rather than accuracy. The key issue is, again, that you are not going to see the enemy. He's going to be in cover, he's going to be concealed, he's going to be camouflaged and he's going to be doing the best he can to not die. If you want to see him, you close in on him and destroy him, but unless you're part of the maneuver element, you need volume of fire, not accuracy. The only way to ensure you are hitting close enough to an unseen enemy to suppress him is to use volume of fire to cover a large enough area with enough bullets to get some of them on top of him purely through chance. The more rolls you take at the RNG, the more likely it becomes that you get a hit.
>>64335505>Better options existThe Fightlite ain't one of em
The used and abused ones jam all the time. The feed cover gets loose and doesn't sit flush when closed so rounds like to fall into recoil spring area
>>64330789You're so retarded I lack the inclination to explain why.
